YOU Decide....

[Lucky Luciano]

in over the last 60 freaking YEARS name me ANY head coach, GM or executive that has EVER left chicago to become successful with another franchise at the job they were doing here.... JUST ONE!!!

i'm sick of it. sick of the poor management and poor decisions this franchise makes year after year after decade after decade.

do we yet again keep walking through knee deep mud? what a shit show.

[Stinger226]

4 minutes ago, Lucky Luciano said:

in over the last 60 freaking YEARS name me ANY head coach, GM or executive that has EVER left chicago to become successful with another franchise at the job they were doing here.... JUST ONE!!!

i'm sick of it. sick of the poor management and poor decisions this franchise makes year after year after decade after decade.

do we yet again keep walking through knee deep mud?

I dont disagree but the only push against that narrative is the new people running things, mainly Poles. He has did many good things but will all be underminded by retaining Flus. We get to see how the yr plays out. He clearly did not address the OL well enough to work. We have added talent and have a (maybe) franchise QB, the most important acquisition (maybe) in our history? 

The rebuild is 2 and 1/2 yrs old, he is not finished yet. He stated it will take 4-5 yrs to do a complete rebuild. We have never seen that before in our history. This is what it looks like. He addressed the OL but it isnt working. He will get one more yr to finish building the roster. Flus wont be here, does it help CW to get rid of him now? You cant do anything about the OL in season. The fanbase will like it but will it matter? 

Fire Waldron , make Tom Brown OC, Flus give DC play calling to Williams and be the HC only. I think that iis the best scenario we may have. We dont have a person in the coaching staff that can turn this around.

[Lucky Luciano]

23 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

 

I dont disagree but the only push against that narrative is the new people running things, mainly Poles. He has did many good things but will all be underminded by retaining Flus. We get to see how the yr plays out. He clearly did not address the OL well enough to work. We have added talent and have a (maybe) franchise QB, the most important acquisition (maybe) in our history?

 how many times in the past have we seen the SAME scenario? we pass on the best coaching options out there to retain a coach we fire a year or two later? this comes to mind... ANDY REED. we could have had him when he left philly for nothing yet we don't see him as an upgrade to trestman and his ilk? as much as i dislike harbaugh and think he is nuts that SHOULD have been the choice but according to a poster on here at the combine they didn't even CONTACT him for the job.

The rebuild is 2 and 1/2 yrs old, he is not finished yet. He stated it will take 4-5 yrs to do a complete rebuild. We have never seen that before in our history. This is what it looks like. He addressed the OL but it isnt working. He will get one more yr to finish building the roster. Flus wont be here, does it help CW to get rid of him now? You cant do anything about the OL in season. The fanbase will like it but will it matter? 

do you destroy the entire team you supposedly are building to keep the weakest link?? the one that will cost you at least TWO more years if you bring in another coach? you have WASTED the franchise qb's contract and possibly his mental stability to be all that he COULD have been, you have WASTED the good will from past and FUTURE free agents, you have WASTED numerous high draft picks and POOR free agents. where is that SILVER LINING?? it's just dejavu' all over again.

Fire Waldron , make Tom Brown OC, Flus give DC play calling to Williams and be the HC only. I think that iis the best scenario we may have. We dont have a person in the coaching staff that can turn this around.

this is yet again  a FREAKING bandaid on an amputated leg.

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Lucky Luciano said:

I dont disagree but the only push against that narrative is the new people running things, mainly Poles. He has did many good things but will all be underminded by retaining Flus. We get to see how the yr plays out. He clearly did not address the OL well enough to work. We have added talent and have a (maybe) franchise QB, the most important acquisition (maybe) in our history?

 how many times in the past have we seen the SAME scenario? we pass on the best coaching options out there to retain a coach we fire a year or two later? this comes to mind... ANDY REED. we could have had him when he left philly for nothing yet we don't see him as an upgrade to trestman and his ilk? as much as i dislike harbaugh and think he is nuts that SHOULD have been the choice but according to a poster on here at the combine they didn't even CONTACT him for the job.

The rebuild is 2 and 1/2 yrs old, he is not finished yet. He stated it will take 4-5 yrs to do a complete rebuild. We have never seen that before in our history. This is what it looks like. He addressed the OL but it isnt working. He will get one more yr to finish building the roster. Flus wont be here, does it help CW to get rid of him now? You cant do anything about the OL in season. The fanbase will like it but will it matter? 

do you destroy the entire team you supposedly are building to keep the weakest link?? the one that will cost you at least TWO more years if you bring in another coach? you have WASTED the franchise qb's contract and possibly his mental stability to be all that he COULD have been, you have WASTED the good will from past and FUTURE free agents, you have WASTED numerous high draft picks and POOR free agents. where is that SILVER LINING?? it's just dejavu' all over again.

Fire Waldron , make Tom Brown OC, Flus give DC play calling to Williams and be the HC only. I think that iis the best scenario we may have. We dont have a person in the coaching staff that can turn this around.

this is yet again  a FREAKING bandaid on an amputated leg.

this this this.

I suppose I could answer your first question with Jim Finks, but thats going back forty years. your point is still right on.

[Mongo3451]

Until the McCaskey family completely steps away, the song will remain the same.  They literally breed apathy.  Perfect boring apathy.  Nobody does it better.

[Stinger226]

The results are the same, but its not the same, its new people. Warren  and Poles run the team now. If burning the ship every 2-3 yrs is what you want, we will never have a winner. Poles made a bad decision staying with Flus. You have to discount  yr 1 because Poles did burn  the house down. Say yr 2 is the start. They went 5-3 in the last 8 games and acquired the 1st pick in the draft. At that point Poles decided to keep Flus because things were pointing up. It has not tuned out well but hindsight is always a mute point. 

I think we have to give Poles one more yr, hiring a new person for GM, we will go threw the same thing again to rebuild. He will see now that was a mistake and change it. Next year will be D day for Poles not this yr. 

I suggest if you think we should burn everything down, find a new team, because the owners will give Poles one more yr for better or worse. Poles said it would take 4-5 yrs to make a winner, not 2 and 1/2. 

 

[Lucky Luciano]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

this this this.

I suppose I could answer your first question with Jim Finks, but thats going back forty years. your point is still right on.

i thought right away of finks BUT... he was basically forced out by G. Halas by choosing ditka against his wishes. so in essence we did the opposite. instead of hiring incompetent people we forced out the one good one in 60 years. finks was the product of muggs halas i believe the same for buddy ryan. muggs dying was the few years of hope/competence in this franchise since the modern age of professional football.

[BearFan PHX]

5 minutes ago, Lucky Luciano said:

i thought right away of finks BUT... he was basically forced out by G. Halas by choosing ditka against his wishes. so in essence we did the opposite. instead of hiring incompetent people we forced out the one good one in 60 years. finks was the product of muggs halas i believe the same for buddy ryan. muggs dying was the few years of hope/competence in this franchise since the modern age of professional football.

for sure

[BearFan PHX]

55 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

The results are the same, but its not the same, its new people. Warren  and Poles run the team now. If burning the ship every 2-3 yrs is what you want, we will never have a winner. Poles made a bad decision staying with Flus. You have to discount  yr 1 because Poles did burn  the house down. Say yr 2 is the start. They went 5-3 in the last 8 games and acquired the 1st pick in the draft. At that point Poles decided to keep Flus because things were pointing up. It has not tuned out well but hindsight is always a mute point. 

I think we have to give Poles one more yr, hiring a new person for GM, we will go threw the same thing again to rebuild. He will see now that was a mistake and change it. Next year will be D day for Poles not this yr. 

I suggest if you think we should burn everything down, find a new team, because the owners will give Poles one more yr for better or worse. Poles said it would take 4-5 yrs to make a winner, not 2 and 1/2. 

 

your argument about not overreacting is a good one in general.

the problem is that sticking with just anyone doesnt produce results either. they have to be good. Flus has proven over and over that he is not good. sticking with him will not make us better.

also to your point about hindsight, a lot of us saw this last year so it wasnt hindsight then. it was 3 historical losses that were 97% to win in the last minutes. its endless situational errors with timeouts, going for it on 4th and 1 in the wrong places. its a lack of a fundamentally sound scheme through multiple coordinators. its a string of presnap penalties that reveal a lack of discipline.

We could all see that. when you know what you have is substandard, thats not the time to double down for consistency.

I think we need to hire based on successful characteristics instead of safe HR hires. Then we can ride with someone for a few years and see where it goes.

But if hes making consistent repeated unforced errors, there is no reason to stay with that guy.

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, Lucky Luciano said:

i thought right away of finks BUT... he was basically forced out by G. Halas by choosing ditka against his wishes. so in essence we did the opposite. instead of hiring incompetent people we forced out the one good one in 60 years. finks was the product of muggs halas i believe the same for buddy ryan. muggs dying was the few years of hope/competence in this franchise since the modern age of professional football.

Didnt Finks die? I thought that was why he left?

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

your argument about not overreacting is a good one in general.

the problem is that sticking with just anyone doesnt produce results either. they have to be good. Flus has proven over and over that he is not good. sticking with him will not make us better.

also to your point about hindsight, a lot of us saw this last year so it wasnt hindsight then. it was 3 historical losses that were 97% to win in the last minutes. its endless situational errors with timeouts, going for it on 4th and 1 in the wrong places. its a lack of a fundamentally sound scheme through multiple coordinators. its a string of presnap penalties that reveal a lack of discipline.

We could all see that. when you know what you have is substandard, thats not the time to double down for consistency.

I think we need to hire based on successful characteristics instead of safe HR hires. Then we can ride with someone for a few years and see where it goes.

But if hes making consistent repeated unforced errors, there is no reason to stay with that guy.

I think Flus needs to be gone now but not sure they will do that. Trying to fgiure out what is the best choice going forward. 

[Lucky Luciano]

23 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Didnt Finks die? I thought that was why he left?

he went to N.O. i believe. then later died from cancer i think. the reason for him leaving was halas who didn't want to listen to him and basically did what HE wanted as in hiring an incompetent mike ditka. so as i said before we drove out the one good management tool we had by ownership incompetence.

[Stinger226]

48 minutes ago, Lucky Luciano said:

he went to N.O. i believe. then later died from cancer i think. the reason for him leaving was halas who didn't want to listen to him and basically did what HE wanted as in hiring an incompetent mike ditka. so as i said before we drove out the one good management tool we had by ownership incompetence.

Actually the best we have ever had. Ditka did get us a SB but lots of baggage with him. should have won 3 with that team.

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

I think Flus needs to be gone now but not sure they will do that. Trying to fgiure out what is the best choice going forward. 

well he deserves to be gone. It makes sense to make the decision now that hes not back next year - but then you need to figure out what youre going to do between now and the offseason, and Im not sure firing Flus is the answer right now. But yeah, you have to be proceeding as if you will fire him and get a new coach next year.

*IF* the new coach buys in on the defensive coaches we already have, then I would be for keeping them *BUT* no more arranged marriages. No pressures. The ehad coach is the head coach and should do whatever they want with their staff. Make it a complete vision for once. THere is nothing that is SO worth saving that is more important than a coach having their entire vision.

now if the new coach realizes that we have some really good position coaches on defense and wants to keep them himself, then FINE GREAT but no more arranged marriages!!

[AZ54]

Something is clearly wrong with this offense.  Our defense is still playing well for the most part but missing some key players in the last few games does make a big difference.  Billings being out the rest of the season with known depth issue on the defensive front is going to be a problem.  

Above all it is the offense issues that bother me the most.  Shane Waldron seems to have played favorites and coddled to egos.  He might not be a bad OC but he's also not a leader of men (sorry to borrow that phrase).   When mistakes are made own it yourself and hold others accountable.  

Caleb Williams can't figure out how to consistently take the quick reads although he has done that at times with good success.  He seems to favor Keenan Allen on critical downs.  As talented as he is, he is also lost in his emotions and pouty on the sidelines.  

Keenan Allen and DJ Moore seem to hate each other.  I remember reporters asking them how it was going to work out with so many mouths to feed.  Now we know.  

Keenan Allen is too slow to get open in the NFL.  He has some quickness in his cuts and his route running but against man coverage he's an easy cover.   He still has value against zone coverages but there is no reason to consider signing him next year.  

DJ Moore seems to be banged up and it's slowing him down and affecting his game.  When he's not struggling to move he's struggling to get his emotions in check.   If he can't be a leader then see the next line...

Rome Odunze was often not been running routes correctly, or at least not in the same manner Caleb is reading things.  That's gotten better in recent games.   He is the one WR who can consistently get open and IMO he should be getting more snaps than Allen, just make him the starter and feed him.  He also threatens teams deep and forces some safety coverage his direction, more than Moore can right now.  Does Waldron have the leadership needed to bench a guy in Allen who used to be one of the elites in the NFL?   

Cole Kmet.   Use him and that includes Caleb who too often is not taking the easy reads with Kmet, or he's going that direction too late.  Get him back in the game.  

Gerald Everett .... seems mostly useless.  We should have kept Brendan Bates.  

Poles... he catered to Waldron with Homer, Everett, and brought in Keenan Allen.  It all seemed to make sense coming into the season.  The mix has been bad.  He also helped hire Waldron.  He also signed a cancer in Davis, who if he were the leader we intended to have on the interior we'd be in a much better spot.  

Oline... we have depth better than last year but not to the practice squad level.  We're relying on players like Borom and Kramer (at LG) which is just a really bad place to be.  None of that helps Caleb who is not a quick read QB.   It killed us in the last game.  I'm not an expert but it seems to me we've lost the ability to call screens, outside running plays with pulling players was also very limited or poorly executed.   

 

 

 

 

[BearFan PHX]

21 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

Something is clearly wrong with this offense.  Our defense is still playing well for the most part but missing some key players in the last few games does make a big difference.  Billings being out the rest of the season with known depth issue on the defensive front is going to be a problem.  

Above all it is the offense issues that bother me the most.  Shane Waldron seems to have played favorites and coddled to egos.  He might not be a bad OC but he's also not a leader of men (sorry to borrow that phrase).   When mistakes are made own it yourself and hold others accountable.  

Caleb Williams can't figure out how to consistently take the quick reads although he has done that at times with good success.  He seems to favor Keenan Allen on critical downs.  As talented as he is, he is also lost in his emotions and pouty on the sidelines.  

Keenan Allen and DJ Moore seem to hate each other.  I remember reporters asking them how it was going to work out with so many mouths to feed.  Now we know.  

Keenan Allen is too slow to get open in the NFL.  He has some quickness in his cuts and his route running but against man coverage he's an easy cover.   He still has value against zone coverages but there is no reason to consider signing him next year.  

DJ Moore seems to be banged up and it's slowing him down and affecting his game.  When he's not struggling to move he's struggling to get his emotions in check.   If he can't be a leader then see the next line...

Rome Odunze was often not been running routes correctly, or at least not in the same manner Caleb is reading things.  That's gotten better in recent games.   He is the one WR who can consistently get open and IMO he should be getting more snaps than Allen, just make him the starter and feed him.  He also threatens teams deep and forces some safety coverage his direction, more than Moore can right now.  Does Waldron have the leadership needed to bench a guy in Allen who used to be one of the elites in the NFL?   

Cole Kmet.   Use him and that includes Caleb who too often is not taking the easy reads with Kmet, or he's going that direction too late.  Get him back in the game.  

Gerald Everett .... seems mostly useless.  We should have kept Brendan Bates.  

Poles... he catered to Waldron with Homer, Everett, and brought in Keenan Allen.  It all seemed to make sense coming into the season.  The mix has been bad.  He also helped hire Waldron.  He also signed a cancer in Davis, who if he were the leader we intended to have on the interior we'd be in a much better spot.  

Oline... we have depth better than last year but not to the practice squad level.  We're relying on players like Borom and Kramer (at LG) which is just a really bad place to be.  None of that helps Caleb who is not a quick read QB.   It killed us in the last game.  I'm not an expert but it seems to me we've lost the ability to call screens, outside running plays with pulling players was also very limited or poorly executed.  

I agree with all of this.

I even agree with "As talented as he is, he is also lost in his emotions and pouty on the sidelines. " - Im not sure it is a bad sign for the future since he obviously cares and is competitive, unlike, say, Jay Cutler's response to adversity. And the chaos he is reacting to is not all of his own making as well. But youre not wrong that Caleb has to play better too, and he is not at all happy right now.

But some of this should rightly come on Caleb. Im not giving up on him at all, I still think he is the bright future of our franchise. But everything has to get better on this team, and that includes Caleb.

[Lucky Luciano]

casually observing without going over game film, it seems strange to me that a lot of our passing sets have multiple receivers on the same side of the field. is this making it easier for defenses to choke off the receivers flooding those sides with safeties and linebackers?

i don't remember seeing many if any across the middle routes for a quick hit either. the qb also is staying in the pocket too long. more planned rollouts especially since the line is like a sieve. nobody is seeing the blitzes or stunts and picking them up.

all in all it looks to me like a shite sandwich.

[Stinger226]

3 hours ago, AZ54 said:

Something is clearly wrong with this offense.  Our defense is still playing well for the most part but missing some key players in the last few games does make a big difference.  Billings being out the rest of the season with known depth issue on the defensive front is going to be a problem.  

Above all it is the offense issues that bother me the most.  Shane Waldron seems to have played favorites and coddled to egos.  He might not be a bad OC but he's also not a leader of men (sorry to borrow that phrase).   When mistakes are made own it yourself and hold others accountable.  

Caleb Williams can't figure out how to consistently take the quick reads although he has done that at times with good success.  He seems to favor Keenan Allen on critical downs.  As talented as he is, he is also lost in his emotions and pouty on the sidelines.  

Keenan Allen and DJ Moore seem to hate each other.  I remember reporters asking them how it was going to work out with so many mouths to feed.  Now we know.  

Keenan Allen is too slow to get open in the NFL.  He has some quickness in his cuts and his route running but against man coverage he's an easy cover.   He still has value against zone coverages but there is no reason to consider signing him next year.  

DJ Moore seems to be banged up and it's slowing him down and affecting his game.  When he's not struggling to move he's struggling to get his emotions in check.   If he can't be a leader then see the next line...

Rome Odunze was often not been running routes correctly, or at least not in the same manner Caleb is reading things.  That's gotten better in recent games.   He is the one WR who can consistently get open and IMO he should be getting more snaps than Allen, just make him the starter and feed him.  He also threatens teams deep and forces some safety coverage his direction, more than Moore can right now.  Does Waldron have the leadership needed to bench a guy in Allen who used to be one of the elites in the NFL?   

Cole Kmet.   Use him and that includes Caleb who too often is not taking the easy reads with Kmet, or he's going that direction too late.  Get him back in the game.  

Gerald Everett .... seems mostly useless.  We should have kept Brendan Bates.  

Poles... he catered to Waldron with Homer, Everett, and brought in Keenan Allen.  It all seemed to make sense coming into the season.  The mix has been bad.  He also helped hire Waldron.  He also signed a cancer in Davis, who if he were the leader we intended to have on the interior we'd be in a much better spot.  

Oline... we have depth better than last year but not to the practice squad level.  We're relying on players like Borom and Kramer (at LG) which is just a really bad place to be.  None of that helps Caleb who is not a quick read QB.   It killed us in the last game.  I'm not an expert but it seems to me we've lost the ability to call screens, outside running plays with pulling players was also very limited or poorly executed.   

 

 

 

 

I dont think Caleb and DJ are on the same page, doubt if its personal, Caleb misses him at a 44% rate. From what I hear, Caleb does a lot of play calling in no huddle and is blowing off runs for passes. He was told to throw to Cole and did 3 times  in a row and blow him off the rest of the game. They have given him to much power for a rookie still trying to learn the NFL.

I believe tomorrow morning Waldron will be demoted or fired. ( Tom Brown) Flus will turn over DC play calling duties to Williams to address his job better as HC. There is no fix for the OL until people get healthy. Jones- Jenkins?-Shelton-Pryor-Wright is okay. Bates is main backup at all 3 IOL positions. Kiran will be swing T.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I agree - but I don’t get why they don’t address quicker. But I guess as long as they do by tomorrow the players have a day to get their minds adjusted before practice starts on Wednesday…but it feels like you’d want the coaches staying to have a day to get their message and approach dialed in so they can hit ground running on Wednesday. 

[DABEARSDABOMB]

But anything less than major changes by tomorrow morning if not leaking tonight would be huge. 

[BearFan PHX]

theyll probably start off with something lame like Waldron is still OC,and makes the gameplan, but Thomas Brown is gonna do the in-game play calling.

Like thats gonna make any freakin difference.

[adam]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

theyll probably start off with something lame like Waldron is still OC,and makes the gameplan, but Thomas Brown is gonna do the in-game play calling.

Like thats gonna make any freakin difference.

Brown was bad as the OC last year in CAR. Also, if he is the "Passing Game Coordinator" aren't those his routes that were drawn up? Isn't that what a Passing Game Coordinator does? He may be part of the problem. 

I would almost rather see Chad Morton as the OC and Play Caller. He at least seems to be a better motivator and leader than the other guys. I could be totally wrong, but that's the way it seemed on Hard Knocks. I don't even remember seeing Brown once the entire season. 

[Stinger226]

6 hours ago, adam said:

Brown was bad as the OC last year in CAR. Also, if he is the "Passing Game Coordinator" aren't those his routes that were drawn up? Isn't that what a Passing Game Coordinator does? He may be part of the problem. 

I would almost rather see Chad Morton as the OC and Play Caller. He at least seems to be a better motivator and leader than the other guys. I could be totally wrong, but that's the way it seemed on Hard Knocks. I don't even remember seeing Brown once the entire season. 

I think we just need a fresh prespective changing what we do.Morton came from Seattle with Waldron, at least Brown was not in that clan. Morton has never called plays, Brown at least has experience and being from Carolina, knows what doesnt work. I went to look up Browns history and he is not listed on the Bears website listing coaches. We keep talking about everything coaches fault but if players exicute better the play calling would look better. When Caleb misses a WR on a throw, its not the play callers fault. When a OL misses a block, it blows the whole play up. When you run the same play call 10 times in a game, that's a pay caller screw up.

[Stinger226]

Does anyone like Gruden as a new HC option?