PFF Grades

[adam]

I know these can be taken with a grain of salt, but there are some good stats in there beyond the grades. Some of the grades actually pass the eye test.

I find it interesting that the top 3 offensive players in PFF for the Bears are on the OL, Wright, Jones, and Jenkins, and all the OL are higher than Williams, Kmet, Odunze, Allen, and Swift. The only offensive skill players higher than Shelton and Pryor are Moore and Roschon. 

The good thing is the worst starter, (according to PFF), is Swift at a 62.0, which means every starter is above average (60.0). 

The worst players with over 100 snaps are: Lewis - 43.3, Everett - 45.3, and Borom - 49.3 which passes the eye test.

On defense, the top player with over 100 snaps is Terell Smith (79.1), which makes it even more baffling why they keep running Stevenson out there. The biggest surprise for me is the fall off of Jaylon Johnson; he has fallen off a cliff during this losing streak and is now 8th on defense, falling all the way from 1st. The pleasant surprises are Byard (79.0) who has been a massive upgrade from Jackson, and Dexter (71.4). 

There are 3 starters on defense below the Mendoza Line, Stevenson - 57.7 (I am surprised he graded that high), Edmunds - 57.2 (feels about right, not enough impact plays), and Taylor - 56.1. Pickens is the only defender below 50 with over 100 snaps at 49.9. 

Using 60 as the metric, here are the number of snaps, by position, for players with a grade below 60:

CB - 642 (Stevenson)
LB - 740 (Edmunds)
ED - 490
TE - 378
DT - 340
G - 218
T - 218
WR - 157

Taking it down to 50, these would be the critical upgrade areas:

TE - 378 (Lewis/Everett)
T - 218 (Borom)
DT - 130 (Pickens/Williams)
G - 76 (Kramer)
LB  - 5
WR - 5

TE2 has really been a black hole for the Bears this year. 

For an overall team grade, the Bears are 19th with a 77.3, the best 4-win team and better than WAS, DAL, and MIA, all who have better records than the Bears. They are also only 0.5 lower than GB. Coaching matters.

[Stinger226]

[BearFan PHX]

This is just how insane PFF is. They claim ZERO pressures on Braxton Jones?

Now watch only the last drive of the Lions game. On almost every play Braxton has been driven back to be right next to Caleb. There was other chaos going on too, so maybe they said someone else gave up the hurry on that play. But no way Braxton kept the pocket or allowed Williams room to not feel pressured.

Remember the one that would have won the game with Moore ont he crosser and Caleb threw it to his feet? Why did that happen? Because Caleb was being pressured. And one of the players pressuring Caleb was the guy Jones was trying to block.

You could realistically give Jones 3 or 4 pressures on that drive alone.

PFF is just silly. I understand the seduction because it feels like  stat but it isn't - it's random nonsense!

That was my anti PFF rant of the day LOL

You have to click "watch on youtube" to see this one...
 

 

[Stinger226]

12 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

This is just how insane PFF is. They claim ZERO pressures on Braxton Jones?

Now watch only the last drive of the Lions game. On almost every play Braxton has been driven back to be right next to Caleb. There was other chaos going on too, so maybe they said someone else gave up the hurry on that play. But no way Braxton kept the pocket or allowed Williams room to not feel pressured.

Remember the one that would have won the game with Moore ont he crosser and Caleb threw it to his feet? Why did that happen? Because Caleb was being pressured. And one of the players pressuring Caleb was the guy Jones was trying to block.

You could realistically give Jones 3 or 4 pressures on that drive alone.

PFF is just silly. I understand the seduction because it feels like  stat but it isn't - it's random nonsense!

That was my anti PFF rant of the day LOL

You have to click "watch on youtube" to see this one...
 

 

I understand your take on PFF, a very flawed system but the most complete place to compare players. Trent Williams is the best LT, but has a ton of penalties, that counts. What PFF tells me is the OTs are at least average OTs in the league. Our main problem is IOL, do you agree? 

[Lucky Luciano]

13 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

This is just how insane PFF is. They claim ZERO pressures on Braxton Jones?
 

 

totally agree. you can watch almost ANY game this season and right off the snap he is being walked back right into the qb. not just once or twice but nearly always.

what he truly EXCELS at is helping the qb off the ground after he is knocked down by the man he is supposed to block. if that were a requisite for the HOF he would be in on the first ballot.

[Lucky Luciano]

just for curiosities sake, could braxton jones play guard without getting blown up? it's a whole different type of position. if he COULD play guard that would work out pretty well and then be a backup tackle if needed.

what does anybody think?

[adam]

1 hour ago, Lucky Luciano said:

just for curiosities sake, could braxton jones play guard without getting blown up? it's a whole different type of position. if he COULD play guard that would work out pretty well and then be a backup tackle if needed.

what does anybody think?

He just needs to get stronger and be able to take on a bull rush. 

[Lucky Luciano]

1 hour ago, adam said:

He just needs to get stronger and be able to take on a bull rush. 

if that hasn't already happened at this point in his career what are the chances of it in the future? would a  position at guard be a better match to his skill set do you think? he wouldn't have to move as much to make blocks as he would at the tackle position against the best/quickest d linemen. less chance for DL to get under his pads?

If not then a swing tackle at best.

[Mongo3451]

2 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

just for curiosities sake, could braxton jones play guard without getting blown up? it's a whole different type of position. if he COULD play guard that would work out pretty well and then be a backup tackle if needed.

what does anybody think?

Yes.  I even posted it on another thread.  Pass sets are completely different for guards and OT.  The hardest thing an OT does is to anchor after contact.  Does the DE dip, rip, spin, swim or bullrush?  When you remove the dip and spin with DT, it's just square up and anchor.  That's why GM's draft OT's higher, because they usually can successfully transition to guard if they fail at OT.  Draft a pure LOT highly.  When he beats Braxton out, he can compete at OG to be a starter and swing tackle.  Same Kiran.

[Lucky Luciano]

22 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Yes.  I even posted it on another thread.  Pass sets are completely different for guards and OT.  The hardest thing an OT does is to anchor after contact.  Does the DE dip, rip, spin, swim or bullrush?  When you remove the dip and spin with DT, it's just square up and anchor.  That's why GM's draft OT's higher, because they usually can successfully transition to guard if they fail at OT.  Draft a pure LOT highly.  When he beats Braxton out, he can compete at OG to be a starter and swing tackle.  Same Kiran.

if he could be an above average guard that would be big for our draft and free agency off season. if he can't play guard then cut him next season.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

I feel different about his abilities to play guard since that is the type of rush he struggles the most with is .  He is under contract for one more year, leave him as LT/Swing.  If a stud LT is available RD1, take him.  If not Kiran can compete for LT or move to G.

[Stinger226]

24 minutes ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

I feel different about his abilities to play guard since that is the type of rush he struggles the most with is .  He is under contract for one more year, leave him as LT/Swing.  If a stud LT is available RD1, take him.  If not Kiran can compete for LT or move to G.

This     I will say he is a good run blocker, if Poles has him in the mix for several positions, let the best man win. He justs needs to bring in competition at several spots. 3 draft picks and Trey Smith. 

[BearFan PHX]

When you have an OT who lacks lateral quickness, you can put them inside to play guard. That way they dont get beat around the edge.

But guards handle bigger men than tackles do, so if your weakness if the bull rush, youll be worse at guard.

Also, I don't think Jones' problem is just brute strength, he also plays too high, and doesnt get under the pads of the rusher.

I think he will be a swing tackle, but i dont see him making the transition to guard the way a lot of other failed tackles are able to.
 

5 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

totally agree. you can watch almost ANY game this season and right off the snap he is being walked back right into the qb. not just once or twice but nearly always.

what he truly EXCELS at is helping the qb off the ground after he is knocked down by the man he is supposed to block. if that were a requisite for the HOF he would be in on the first ballot.

exactly. and the defense keeps the bull rush in their pocket for the right moment, that's why Caleb is always being sacked at critical moments in the last drive.
 

7 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I understand your take on PFF, a very flawed system but the most complete place to compare players.

I truly dont understand how comparing players with inaccurate information is helpful?

I could say that Velus Jones is a 99 and DJ Moore is a 22. Easy numbers to compare! Velus is a LOT better than DJ. Except the numbers arent correct, so just because you can easily compare them doesnt mean that there is any information there?

 

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

When you have an OT who lacks lateral quickness, you can put them inside to play guard. That way they dont get beat around the edge.

But guards handle bigger men than tackles do, so if your weakness if the bull rush, youll be worse at guard.

Also, I don't think Jones' problem is just brute strength, he also plays too high, and doesnt get under the pads of the rusher.

I think he will be a swing tackle, but i dont see him making the transition to guard the way a lot of other failed tackles are able to.
 

exactly. and the defense keeps the bull rush in their pocket for the right moment, that's why Caleb is always being sacked at critical moments in the last drive.
 

I truly dont understand how comparing players with inaccurate information is helpful?

I could say that Velus Jones is a 99 and DJ Moore is a 22. Easy numbers to compare! Velus is a LOT better than DJ. Except the numbers arent correct, so just because you can easily compare them doesnt mean that there is any information there?

 

I think its an imperfect system  but there are  NFL teams that subscribe to them that think differently.  They do customized stats for every team in the league and they pay for it. Many journalist love them. I see several snaps where he looks bad but they look at every snap and compare to other OTs in the league. I dont watch all the Ts in the league, so maybe every player has several bad snaps a game.  I take PFF, my eye test and how the NFL rates then to form my opinion. 

[BearFan PHX]

3 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

I think its an imperfect system  but there are  NFL teams that subscribe to them that think differently.  They do customized stats for every team in the league and they pay for it. Many journalist love them. I see several snaps where he looks bad but they look at every snap and compare to other OTs in the league. I dont watch all the Ts in the league, so maybe every player has several bad snaps a game.  I take PFF, my eye test and how the NFL rates then to form my opinion. 

I have not heard that NFL teams pay PFF for info. Do you have a link for that?

[Mongo3451]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

But guards handle bigger men than tackles do, so if your weakness if the bull rush, youll be worse at guard.

This is the opposite of true.  The anchor is everything and it's ten times easier from the guard position.

[Mongo3451]

4 hours ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

I feel different about his abilities to play guard since that is the type of rush he struggles the most with is .  He is under contract for one more year, leave him as LT/Swing.  If a stud LT is available RD1, take him.  If not Kiran can compete for LT or move to G.

Not the same positional responsibilities.  Guard is way easier to block on bull rush.  IYKYK 

[Mongo3451]

There are opinions and then there are facts.

[BearFan PHX]

30 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

This is the opposite of true.  The anchor is everything and it's ten times easier from the guard position.

I agree it's easier because you don't have to move laterally too. So for sure, it's easier. But if you're being consistently beaten by the bull rushes, and being overpowered by strength, then a DT is gonna be even harder to deal with than a DE?

There is no doubt that you're correct that a lot of failed OTs make it as OGs. We've certainly seen it on our team a bunch of times.

But I dont know if Braxton Jones has the strength to make that adjustment.

Youre also right that it's not just brute strength but getting into your anchor, and youre also right that not having to worry about lateral movement means you can get right to your anchor, so those are reason for optimism.

Im just saying that I see Jones get bullied and manhandled with the bull rush a lot more than outside or inside moves, and so i wonder if he personally has what it takes to make that transition to OG. But in general terms, i fully agree with what you've said.

[Mongo3451]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

But if you're being consistently beaten by the bull rushes, and being overpowered by strength, then a DT is gonna be even harder to deal with than a DE?

No.  It's about being in a leverage position.  It's not about him being weak.  He's a big boy and handles it well when in a proper set.  At OG, he'll always be in that position.  Plus, they'll not have a run at him and the moves that I explained earlier.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

1 hour ago, Mongo3451 said:

Not the same positional responsibilities.  Guard is way easier to block on bull rush.  IYKYK 

I played guard and it is about strength, leverage and mobility.  Jones has long arms and mobility but cannot win any leverage match.  He would be having power rushers collapse the pocket even quicker than outside. As for Pass Pro responsibilities, guard usually has more bodies in front of him against a 3-4. NT, DE, and LB.  4-3, usually a DT over you.  You have to know your responsibilities 

Talent wise, yes they face some of the most athletic freaks with speed and size so you do not know what they will throw at you.  

Jones to me is a LT or swing only.  If he can be a high level starting guard, that would be a blessing and I would love it.

[Mongo3451]

1 hour ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

I played guard and it is about strength, leverage and mobility.  Jones has long arms and mobility but cannot win any leverage match.  He would be having power rushers collapse the pocket even quicker than outside. As for Pass Pro responsibilities, guard usually has more bodies in front of him against a 3-4. NT, DE, and LB.  4-3, usually a DT over you.  You have to know your responsibilities 

Talent wise, yes they face some of the most athletic freaks with speed and size so you do not know what they will throw at you.  

Jones to me is a LT or swing only.  If he can be a high level starting guard, that would be a blessing and I would love it.

I played tackle, guard and center.  Each is different, but guard was the easiest.  He may or may not be able to do it, but he has size and mobility in his favor.  The odds like his prospects...

[BearFan PHX]

Yeah FWIW, I dont disagree with what ASHKUM or Mongo are saying in general. Especially about how much easier it is to play OG because you dont have to worry about the sides so you can get into your anchor quickly.

As you say Mongo, facts are facts, and i do not dispute anything youre saying about that.

I'm just saying i think Braxton Jones doesnt hold up well against the bull rush, and he would have a harder time with DTs bringing that.

Could he be taught? I cant say he couldnt be, but I wouldnt put him in as a starter at OG until Id seen that he could do it.

My issue here is with Braxton's specific toolset and not with the general points you guys are making about the positions. i agree with all of that entirely.

[Stinger226]

15 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

I have not heard that NFL teams pay PFF for info. Do you have a link for that?

I just goggled it and there was so much  information on it, didnt find any reason to be specific. The PFF website states that all NFL have customized subs foe each team. I think the reports come from Sports Management Worldwide ( an organization). It said 32 teams, over 100 colleges and 9 CFL teams use their services. 

I think the biggest problem with Braxton is exactly what Mongo and Ashkum said, its not strengh as much as he lets players outleveage him when setting his base. He is excellent ar run blocking and would  not open up his stance inside like he does on the outside.

[Lucky Luciano]

9 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

I played tackle, guard and center.  Each is different, but guard was the easiest.  He may or may not be able to do it, but he has size and mobility in his favor.  The odds like his prospects...

again, i know nearly nothing about the actual real play requirements as you and ashkum are putting forth, but, here are the pluses...

1. size

2. arm length

3. quickness - he certainly would fit the description a pulling guard would require - he can get to the second level as a blocker

4. he supposedly is a good run blocker

5. he would not have the lateral movement or assignments a tackle has for DE's. this SHOULD help him with the type of assignments required by a guard?

EDIT: being required as tackle to have good lateral movement, shouldn't this also be a plus with him in the guard position on stunts or blitz's?