Align the Organization - Fire Poles

[BearFan PHX]

40 minutes ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

At least talk to the man and learn.  They act like they know how to run a winning franchise.  No call to Harbaugh, no Andy Reid, no O'Connell who they took Eberflus over.  I am leaning g towards Vrabel now as my guy but if they can pry McVay or Shannhan for draft picks, I might consider. 

I agree. They act like they have 20 solid years of wins, and instead they are one of the worst franchises in the league.

If Warren was really that smart, he'd have done some of this.

I really worry about signing Ben Johnson to be head coach. If the Bears open their pocketbooks to pay him top dollar it proves that the problem isn't that they are cheap, it's that they are stupid and insist on having their way.

[Mongo3451]

8 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

If the Bears open their pocketbooks to pay him top dollar it proves that the problem isn't that they are cheap, it's that they are stupid and insist on having their way.

All of the above.  We already know they are stupid.  We already know they can't keep their beaks out of football decisions.  History tells us they are cheap when it comes to coaches.

[Stinger226]

9 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

he actually did. he plucked someone from his brother Jim's front office

I didnt know they knew each other. His role with Ravens has been succeeful and name was floated around for a GM job the last 3 years before he was hired. Seen several interviews of Joe Hortiz and it appears the Chargers interviewed 5 canidates for GM before they hired Jim, Joe was one of them. John Harbaugh reccomended Joe to John Spanos the president of football operations after they hired Jim and said they would be a good fit. Jim Harbaugh said he knew Joe Hortiz but didnt have anything to do with hiring the GM .  The only ties between Joe and Jim is he worked with his brother and was highly reccomended. The Chargers website has a list of press conferences for reference. Also Joe Hortiz was interviewed on a Kay Adams podcast when he got hired and discussed his relationship with Jim Harbaugh. 

Hard to say they were hired as a pair. 

[adam]

Now articles are coming out about Poles. Supposedly Eberflus was going to be fired by Indy before the Bears hired him, LOL. Also, on Davis signing, Poles was warned about his work ethic and still signed him to a big deal. 

If you take a step back and just look at everything Poles has done, there is nothing in there that is spectacular. He got lucky on the CAR trade and made a league average trade for Swift after whiffing on Claypool. 

[BearFan PHX]

44 minutes ago, adam said:

Now articles are coming out about Poles. Supposedly Eberflus was going to be fired by Indy before the Bears hired him, LOL. Also, on Davis signing, Poles was warned about his work ethic and still signed him to a big deal. 

If you take a step back and just look at everything Poles has done, there is nothing in there that is spectacular. He got lucky on the CAR trade and made a league average trade for Swift after whiffing on Claypool. 

right. hes not great, hes not terrible. that is reason to be fired in the NFL where 31 teams lose and only one wins the superbowl.

If your goal is to be 15th, then keep him, keep Thomas Brown, hire from within and keep on rooting for them to get better.

But if you want to chase greatness, you gotta let people go when they show you they arent great.

Also, we knew this about Nate Davis too - we read articles about his work ethic back when he was acquired. Everyone knew.

[Stinger226]

24 minutes ago, adam said:

Now articles are coming out about Poles. Supposedly Eberflus was going to be fired by Indy before the Bears hired him, LOL. Also, on Davis signing, Poles was warned about his work ethic and still signed him to a big deal. 

If you take a step back and just look at everything Poles has done, there is nothing in there that is spectacular. He got lucky on the CAR trade and made a league average trade for Swift after whiffing on Claypool. 

In 2021 Colts were the 11trh ranked D in the league and tied for 8th in points giving up with 21.5 a game. Those stats dont scream fire me alert. I heard the story he was about to be fired and seen the video where the guy said that but he didnt  list a Colt source to verify it. There was talk about Frank Reich getting fired also , so there was a lot of unrest in the organisation of which got fired midseason in 2022. 2 teams interviewed Flus for a HC job, Bears and Jauguars. He was a top 10 scoring defence every year as a DC. He was 2nd in TOs in 2021. 

Poles was hired and given a choice of 3 names to choose a HC  provided by the committee that picked him. Flus, Dan Quinn and Jim Caldwell. Dan Quinn is doing well this year but was fired in 2020 in Atl after starting the season 0-5. If I was Poles, I wouldnt have liked any of those choices at the time. 

Poles has plenty of issues to be critizied for just in this year, going back to his firsy day as a GM seems like a mute point.  

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

Poles has plenty of issues to be critizied for just in this year, going back to his firsy day as a GM seems like a mute point.  

It's not a moot point. Anything he does is part of his body of work, and part of how you grade his performance.

And Poles did not fire Flus during this past offseason where any of us could already see his consistently poor game managament, and how he cost us wins we had in our pocket multiple times. And when you see someone does something poorly and doesn't change, then it is possible to predict that they will do it again int he future, and boy did he this year. In keeping Flus, he basically doubled down on the original decision, and becomes more responsible for it.

If you're not so blinded by affection for the team, it is pretty easy to see when people are not doing their jobs, and you don't have to wait so long to move on from them. Talking about Flus, Velus Jones, Nate Davis - none of them should have been in our plans for this year. That's 20% of Caleb's rookie contract window wasted.

If as a player* or coach, you're not showing that you're top 5 in the league, the organizationshould have you on the list to be replaced. Obviously you cant turn over an entire roster every year, so sometimes it takes a couple years, like with Braxton, but the GM should already know you arent the long term answer.

* rookies and young players making consistent progress excepted.

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

It's not a moot point. Anything he does is part of his body of work, and part of how you grade his performance.

And Poles did not fire Flus during this past offseason where any of us could already see his consistently poor game managament, and how he cost us wins we had in our pocket multiple times. And when you see someone does something poorly and doesn't change, then it is possible to predict that they will do it again int he future, and boy did he this year. In keeping Flus, he basically doubled down on the original decision, and becomes more responsible for it.

If you're not so blinded by affection for the team, it is pretty easy to see when people are not doing their jobs, and you don't have to wait so long to move on from them. Talking about Flus, Velus Jones, Nate Davis - none of them should have been in our plans for this year. That's 20% of Caleb's rookie contract window wasted.

If as a player* or coach, you're not showing that you're top 5 in the league, the organizationshould have you on the list to be replaced. Obviously you cant turn over an entire roster every year, so sometimes it takes a couple years, like with Braxton, but the GM should already know you arent the long term answer.

* rookies and young players making consistent progress excepted.

We are a composite of all our choices we make. Your first day on a job (never been a GM) you are given a choice of 3 coaches. Lets agree he didnt get to bring in someone he wanted ,he choose Flus. Clearly that looks bad 3 years later but it is easy to judge now , a lot harder at that moment in time. Lots of examples of people failing that did better in the future, to say if you were bad, always bad. i understand you think that way but reality doesnt always follow that path. Example, Bill Belichick was fired as a HC of Cleveland and went on to win more SBs than any other coach with NE in history. 

This is very easy, list all the mistakes he has made and it dont mean crap because a bad organization is not going to fire him. He answers to people above him and we will never know if he was loyal to Flus and was told no last year. I thought he was loyal to Fields and he moved on from him and drafted Caleb. We all agree that was the right choice but lets talk about his first day on the job instead. I will mention good things he's done  and say I think he deserves one more year. Our opinions dont count because THEY arent firing him. 

He is in his third year of roster development and told George he will build a consistent winner in 4 to 5 yrs. You said its takes 2 yrs, cant think of any franchises that have did a 90% changed roster but Im sure you will give me one. After 2018 I thought Pace and Nagy would finally do that but all that happened was a bad old roster with no cap space and a one year winner. 

I would love to find the article by a Bears writer that wrote to do a complete rebuld and build the every year winning team it would take 5 year and that the Bears fandom would not be patient enough for that.  He was right. 

[BearFan PHX]

12 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

We are a composite of all our choices we make. Your first day on a job (never been a GM) you are given a choice of 3 coaches. Lets agree he didnt get to bring in someone he wanted ,he choose Flus. Clearly that looks bad 3 years later but it is easy to judge now , a lot harder at that moment in time. Lots of examples of people failing that did better in the future, to say if you were bad, always bad. i understand you think that way but reality doesnt always follow that path. Example, Bill Belichick was fired as a HC of Cleveland and went on to win more SBs than any other coach with NE in history. 

This is very easy, list all the mistakes he has made and it dont mean crap because a bad organization is not going to fire him. He answers to people above him and we will never know if he was loyal to Flus and was told no last year. I thought he was loyal to Fields and he moved on from him and drafted Caleb. We all agree that was the right choice but lets talk about his first day on the job instead. I will mention good things he's done  and say I think he deserves one more year. Our opinions dont count because THEY arent firing him. 

He is in his third year of roster development and told George he will build a consistent winner in 4 to 5 yrs. You said its takes 2 yrs, cant think of any franchises that have did a 90% changed roster but Im sure you will give me one. After 2018 I thought Pace and Nagy would finally do that but all that happened was a bad old roster with no cap space and a one year winner. 

I would love to find the article by a Bears writer that wrote to do a complete rebuld and build the every year winning team it would take 5 year and that the Bears fandom would not be patient enough for that.  He was right. 

I keep telling you the same thing. just because people that ended up good (like Belichick) failed initially does NOT mean that the majority of people that fail initially will eventually succeed. Most people that fail at that level will never succeed.

I am less concerned with being "fair" to Poles than I am to making sure Caleb has what he needs.

Also, I have never said a rebuild takes 2 years - what I have said is that if after two years you know someone is not getting it done, you don't have to wait the full 5 to see the result. Flus showed us who he was last year. We should have fired him in the offseason, instead Poles kept him.

If Poles wanted to fire him the, and was not allowed to fire him, then whoever said he wasnt allowed to fire him should be removed from football decisions.

It's not hard - if you cant see that one of the 6 worst coaches of ALL TIME is fireable after last year, then you have no business making football decisions.

And this isn't hindsight. I said this past offseason when Flus returned that if we didn't look good right out of the gate, it would and should cost Poles his job. I said it was a mistake at the time.

So far I've been on record saying:

Charles Leno sucks
Justin Field sucks
Waldron sucks
Flus sucks
Chris Morgan sucks

in each case you said it was too early to tell and we should give them more time. Well Caleb doesnt have more time. If we dont get this together fast, Caleb will hold out and demand a trade. This is not the time time for "aw gee, let's give poles more time" it's time for bold action. Bring in some winners and let's go.

I dont even really want to give ben Johnson the benefit of the doubt. He might well be an excellent head coach, but we dont KNOW.

Get Vrabel, let him suggest his choice of GM and OC, and lets go win.

[Bears4Ever_34]

7 hours ago, adam said:

Now articles are coming out about Poles. Supposedly Eberflus was going to be fired by Indy before the Bears hired him, LOL. Also, on Davis signing, Poles was warned about his work ethic and still signed him to a big deal. 

If you take a step back and just look at everything Poles has done, there is nothing in there that is spectacular. He got lucky on the CAR trade and made a league average trade for Swift after whiffing on Claypool. 

That Eberflus bit about him maybe getting fired by the Colts was common knowledge at the time. If you recall, they blew their last regular season game against a horrible Jaguars team that caused them to miss the playoffs. There was a lot of talk about Eberflus' defense imploding down the stretch. Colts fans were sick of him. 

Not only was nobody going to hire Eberflus back in 2022, nobody was going to hire him last year, had he been fired, and everybody BUT Ryan Poles knew it.

[jason]

On 12/9/2024 at 8:31 AM, Stinger226 said:

Truthfully, I dont disagree with you, i just dont think the Bears are firing him, so I roll with the notion he is going to be here.

Agree. Poles should probably go, but the Bears won’t do it. He will get one more year to ruin Caleb Williams’ future by putting a franchise 1.1 QB behind an OL of dudes who should be working at Hardee’s.

[jason]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Also, I have never said a rebuild takes 2 years - what I have said is that if after two years you know someone is not getting it done, you don't have to wait the full 5 to see the result. Flus showed us who he was last year. We should have fired him in the offseason, instead Poles kept him.

If Poles wanted to fire him the, and was not allowed to fire him, then whoever said he wasnt allowed to fire him should be removed from football decisions.

It's not hard - if you cant see that one of the 6 worst coaches of ALL TIME is fireable after last year, then you have no business making football decisions.

And this isn't hindsight. I said this past offseason when Flus returned that if we didn't look good right out of the gate, it would and should cost Poles his job. I said it was a mistake at the time.

So far I've been on record saying:

Charles Leno sucks
Justin Field sucks
Waldron sucks
Flus sucks
Chris Morgan sucks

in each case you said it was too early to tell and we should give them more time. Well Caleb doesnt have more time. If we dont get this together fast, Caleb will hold out and demand a trade. This is not the time time for "aw gee, let's give poles more time" it's time for bold action. Bring in some winners and let's go.

I dont even really want to give ben Johnson the benefit of the doubt. He might well be an excellent head coach, but we dont KNOW.

Get Vrabel, let him suggest his choice of GM and OC, and lets go win.

Love this one. Although, I still contend that while Caleb obviously has the “It Factor” as a passer, Justin Fields had a similar presence as an overall threat. He was just good enough as a passer, and absolutely electric as a running QB. What he never received was consistent support via competent coaching or blocking from this trash organization.

[Mongo3451]

I heard the article by Dan Weiderer is 14 pages long.  I tried to read it and they want money.  If anyone has subscription and can paste the article, that would be cool.

[Mongo3451]

25 minutes ago, Bears4Ever_34 said:

That Eberflus bit about him maybe getting fired by the Colts was common knowledge at the time. If you recall, they blew their last regular season game against a horrible Jaguars team that caused them to miss the playoffs. There was a lot of talk about Eberflus' defense imploding down the stretch. Colts fans were sick of him. 

Not only was nobody going to hire Eberflus back in 2022, nobody was going to hire him last year, had he been fired, and everybody BUT Ryan Poles knew it.

I remember the day we hired Flus, Dan Dakich called in to Waddle and Silvey and said, "we would rue the day we hired him".  Waddle had a hard time swallowing it, but Dakich held strong.  Dakich has a show based in Indy.

[BearFan PHX]

3 hours ago, jason said:

Although, I still contend that while Caleb obviously has the “It Factor” as a passer, Justin Fields had a similar presence as an overall threat. He was just good enough as a passer, and absolutely electric as a running QB. What he never received was consistent support via competent coaching or blocking from this trash organization.

Well of course I agree that Fields didn't get support from the team. We haven't had an OL in decades, and I know that's something you couldn't agree with more LOL

I don't personally think Fields can see the field in the passing game, but there is no denying he is an incredible athlete with a hell of an arm - his long ball is much better than Caleb's too, and he is a Hester-like runner, although that's a good way to get injured too. But still he is an electric athlete.

But I think without being able to read the field, Justin's ceiling is much lower that what Caleb is capable of.

[Stinger226]

14 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

I keep telling you the same thing. just because people that ended up good (like Belichick) failed initially does NOT mean that the majority of people that fail initially will eventually succeed. Most people that fail at that level will never succeed.

I am less concerned with being "fair" to Poles than I am to making sure Caleb has what he needs.

Also, I have never said a rebuild takes 2 years - what I have said is that if after two years you know someone is not getting it done, you don't have to wait the full 5 to see the result. Flus showed us who he was last year. We should have fired him in the offseason, instead Poles kept him.

If Poles wanted to fire him the, and was not allowed to fire him, then whoever said he wasnt allowed to fire him should be removed from football decisions.

It's not hard - if you cant see that one of the 6 worst coaches of ALL TIME is fireable after last year, then you have no business making football decisions.

And this isn't hindsight. I said this past offseason when Flus returned that if we didn't look good right out of the gate, it would and should cost Poles his job. I said it was a mistake at the time.

So far I've been on record saying:

Charles Leno sucks
Justin Field sucks
Waldron sucks
Flus sucks
Chris Morgan sucks

in each case you said it was too early to tell and we should give them more time. Well Caleb doesnt have more time. If we dont get this together fast, Caleb will hold out and demand a trade. This is not the time time for "aw gee, let's give poles more time" it's time for bold action. Bring in some winners and let's go.

I dont even really want to give ben Johnson the benefit of the doubt. He might well be an excellent head coach, but we dont KNOW.

Get Vrabel, let him suggest his choice of GM and OC, and lets go win.

Obviously you cant turn over an entire roster every year, so sometimes it takes a couple years, like with Braxton, but the GM should already know you arent the long term answer.

[Stinger226]

8 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Well of course I agree that Fields didn't get support from the team. We haven't had an OL in decades, and I know that's something you couldn't agree with more LOL

I don't personally think Fields can see the field in the passing game, but there is no denying he is an incredible athlete with a hell of an arm - his long ball is much better than Caleb's too, and he is a Hester-like runner, although that's a good way to get injured too. But still he is an electric athlete.

But I think without being able to read the field, Justin's ceiling is much lower that what Caleb is capable of.

I agree Justin's ceiling is much lower than Caleb as a passer. I do believe had we not drafted Caleb and (again) got a ton of assets for the #1 pick, we would have a winning record right now. Fields can take us to the playoffs but Caleb can get us to a SB. With Fields here, Poles would have added to the OL and DL. Focusing on the running game it would have keep the defense off the field more and been more effective. He may have drafted a WR but not at nine. He may have not added K. Allen and went after a different kind of RB istead of Swift. I believe those moves he did make were all related to what Caleb will need for a high power passing game. The bad coaching would have still shown its face but as a running team we would have been in more playing from a lead instead of having to keep coming back in games. 

Poles made the right decision to draft for the future and sacrifice wins. Its brought Poles a hell storm but that is what was needed to happen to get rid of Flus. I liked Flus but he was never taking us to a SB. I think you said it best (flus doesnt put us in a position to win games). Something like that.

 

[BearFan PHX]

16 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

I heard the article by Dan Weiderer is 14 pages long.  I tried to read it and they want money.  If anyone has subscription and can paste the article, that would be cool.

here ya go. you can pretty much read ANY webpage that has a paywall if you just type "archive.is/" right before the www part

here's a condensed link

https://archive.is/xbZWJ

[BearFan PHX]

4 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I agree Justin's ceiling is much lower than Caleb as a passer. I do believe had we not drafted Caleb and (again) got a ton of assets for the #1 pick, we would have a winning record right now. Fields can take us to the playoffs but Caleb can get us to a SB. With Fields here, Poles would have added to the OL and DL. Focusing on the running game it would have keep the defense off the field more and been more effective. He may have drafted a WR but not at nine. He may have not added K. Allen and went after a different kind of RB istead of Swift. I believe those moves he did make were all related to what Caleb will need for a high power passing game. The bad coaching would have still shown its face but as a running team we would have been in more playing from a lead instead of having to keep coming back in games. 

Poles made the right decision to draft for the future and sacrifice wins. Its brought Poles a hell storm but that is what was needed to happen to get rid of Flus. I liked Flus but he was never taking us to a SB. I think you said it best (flus doesnt put us in a position to win games). Something like that.

 

right, and also that someone who is "pretty good" is a guy you keep in business, but a guy you fire in the NFL

[Mongo3451]

32 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

here ya go. you can pretty much read ANY webpage that has a paywall if you just type "archive.is/" right before the www part

here's a condensed link

https://archive.is/xbZWJ

Wow!  Great article. Thanks bro!

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I officially endorse this - let Warren make the decision and reset this. Poles is just as much a part of this mess. 

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Mongo3451 said:

Wow!  Great article. Thanks bro!

yeah I just read it too - amazing. Says everything, and it's hard to come away after reading that thinking that Poles is someone you can depend on.

Thanks for making me look for it!

That   archive.is/   trick is amazing for all kinds of things. any article on any topic thats behind a paywall - some research papers too.

[BearFan PHX]

10 minutes ago, DABEARSDABOMB said:

I officially endorse this - let Warren make the decision and reset this. Poles is just as much a part of this mess. 

I think it comes down to basically Vrabel or Johnson.

Johnson might have the juice to be a great head coach, but no one knows for sure. His Xs and Os are great, but like McVey, when you completely baffle the league (which RARELY happens, cough Nagy) it only lasts for like 12 weeks until a few teams demonstrate how to handle it. Then it comes down to something other than innovation. Does Johnson have that? I dunno. I cant say he doesnt, but it's a gamble. maybe in a few years we will all know he was great, but you don't know that right now.

Vrabel is a proven commodity. he's a real leader, hes competitive, he's inspiring and intimidating, and he has super bowl rings. He is a real coach and you dont have to guess at that. On the flip side, it means your offense is coming from a coordinator. Not that Vrabel doesnt know offense, because he does - especially the running game, and particularly the blocking for the running game. but yes, we will have to have a good OC. And yes, if we win, we will have to go through OCs. But Vrabel klnows enough to know when to overrule the OC "dont get fancy, just run this down their throats" And he can probably smell nerdy BS that wont work form a mile away. I trust Vrabel to pick an OC more than poles or Warren! And more than i trust Johnson to pick a DC!

For me, all that makes Vrabel the right answer.

Johnson isnt a bad answer, hes just more risky.

Both will insist on an offensive line.

So it's just down to who Poles or Warren pick. And either are good picks, but i think one is the right pick, meaning Vrabel.

Poles and Warren dont need to be geniuses, or reinvent the wheel. They just need to call Vrabel, and then sit back and take the credit. Oh, and get to work on finding the right OL.Vrabel will help them with that too.

If Vrabel has a GM he wants to bring in, let him

[Mongo3451]

Vrabel and Daboll t shirts are being printed as we speak!

I'll also add that Poles has done an OK job.  I still don't believe anything out of Halas Hall.  With strong leadership from the HC, I believe it will make Poles a stronger partner in building the team.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

24 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Vrabel and Daboll t shirts are being printed as we speak!

I'll also add that Poles has done an OK job.  I still don't believe anything out of Halas Hall.  With strong leadership from the HC, I believe it will make Poles a stronger partner in building the team.

That combo works well in my mind.