3x OC Options for HC

[BearFan PHX]

3 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

no on EVERY count.

1.  how often do we pick a franchise quality qb #1 overall? how often during our entire 100+ years in the nfl?

this is the brass ring. we need the best there is to form this rookie into a HOF qb if he has the talent. i really don't care what the record is during this development. in 3 years these are the KEY years to learn from the best to develop the mindset that will last a long career.

I agree with you in this. We have to develop Caleb.
 

3 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

if you hire a vrable it is a super unknown what we get as an OC and qb developer and for how long. why gamble the absolute most IMPORTANT player on your roster who could contribute for 15 YEARS? we have been to TWO freaking superbowls in over 50 YEARS and lost one of them due to poor qb play

Well, I am sure if you're looking at Vrabel, you talk about who the OC will be. It wont be a gamble, it'll be whoever the names they are looking at are?

Also, if you hire Johnson, he still has to be HC, so the OC and QB position coach are still going to be incredibly important hires for Caleb - no matter who the HC is?

I think the mistake people are making is in thinking Johnson would be our OC. Id LOVE that. Id pay him his $15M to come here as OC under Vrabel if that's what it took. We are aligned on that.

But having him as HC still means Caleb is mostly working with the OC and QB coach. So those hires are super important no matter who the head coach is.

And if we start slow and the team wants to quit again, does Johnson have the HC skills to handle that? That's the problem with trying ot be the OC from the HC position.

 

3 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

2.  johnson appears to understand the correlation between a GOOD offensive line and qb development. isn't that a prerequisite?

to believe caleb will "shine thru" with a "decent or average" OC is absurd. that is how the chicago bears have destroyed qb's or never even found one for multiple decades.

Again we totally agree. I think we all agree on most of the things that are important, but how to get there is where we differ.

I promise you that Mike Vrabel cares about a strong OL just as much as Johnson. He gets that.

And again, whoever your OC is going to be could be hired under Johnson OR Vrabel. So no one is looking for decent or average.

It just feels like we are trying to use the HC position to lure Johnson into being our OC. And again, i would LOVE Johnson as OC. But its HC we are talking about.

 

3 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

3.  another absurd statement... "A good defense and running helps Caleb just as much as a perfect OC."  we have had some pretty good defenses over the years. WHAT qb's are you talking about that this helped them as much as a perfect OC or even a competent one? where are our rings?

I'm with you 100% on this. Caleb needs a great coach, a great scheme, a great culture and a great OL.

I think Stinger makes a tactical error here in trying to sell Vrabel as a "lesser choice than Johnson, but it's OK." If I thought that, I'd be out on Vrabel.

I think Vrabel brings in a great offensive staff. OCs should be lining up to work with Caleb in a culture that Vrabel keeps. There will be some who have experience too.

I just think in all this rush to get Johnson to be our OC, we're forgetting what the HC does, and hiring the right guy for the wrong job?

[Mongo3451]

7 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

if anyone thinks johnson is a primo OC this is the HC we need to hire. even if he fails as a HC he will/should turn caleb into the qb we expected when we picked him #1 inside that 3 year period he is here as a HC. this would be a qb that should play for us for 10-15 years.

You got me with this statement Lucky.  I've been racking brain trying to find reasons he wouldn't work versus the reasons he will.  If he's hired as HC, he's liable to bring, by promoting, his entire staff.  He's gotten excellent play out every position.  Getting those position coaches, with what they know and the types they look for, will be gold.  

Our defense quit for two reasons.  One: they constantly have to play from behind, due to not scoring in the first quarter.  Two: we fired their general.  Scoring cures everything!

I'm in Lucky!  Still like Gruden too...

[Alaskan Grizzly]

The only issue I have with bringing the ‘next greatest thing’ at OC as the next HC … been there done that. With Cutler it was Marc Trestman and with Trubisky it was Nagy.  (Technically they tried to bring in Martz and Gase as OCs for Cutler and still it didn’t work).   Other places have tried and failed too… Daboll with the Giants, Callahan with the Titans, and the aforementioned Josh McDaniels (Broncos and Raiders).   

[Bears4Ever_34]

1 hour ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

The only issue I have with bringing the ‘next greatest thing’ at OC as the next HC … been there done that. With Cutler it was Marc Trestman and with Trubisky it was Nagy.  (Technically they tried to bring in Martz and Gase as OCs for Cutler and still it didn’t work).   Other places have tried and failed too… Daboll with the Giants, Callahan with the Titans, and the aforementioned Josh McDaniels (Broncos and Raiders).   

The hot name coordinator the year they hired Trestman was Bruce Arians, the reigning coach of the year, who went on to have enormous success with two different franchises.

Your point about offense could easily be reversed on defense, too. They've already been down the road of the gritty culture guy and that left them with John Fox and Matt Eberflus, who happen to be #2 and #3 on the all time worst record list in franchise history. As much as we all hated Nagy towards the end, he made the playoffs 2 out of 4 seasons as the head coach, which we would all kill for today.

The problem with the Bears is that they never go after the big fish. They chose not to go after Jim Harbaugh last year, and he's got the Chargers already in playoff competition. Ben Johnson is the biggest fish in the pond this coaching cycle, and he just so happens to coach the right side of the ball. For once, I'd love to see the Bears make the obvious hire and stop being afraid of paying big money for a coach in high demand, like Johnson.

[BearFan PHX]

48 minutes ago, Bears4Ever_34 said:

The hot name coordinator the year they hired Trestman was Bruce Arians, the reigning coach of the year, who went on to have enormous success with two different franchises.

Your point about offense could easily be reversed on defense, too. They've already been down the road of the gritty culture guy and that left them with John Fox and Matt Eberflus, who happen to be #2 and #3 on the all time worst record list in franchise history. As much as we all hated Nagy towards the end, he made the playoffs 2 out of 4 seasons as the head coach, which we would all kill for today.

The problem with the Bears is that they never go after the big fish. They chose not to go after Jim Harbaugh last year, and he's got the Chargers already in playoff competition. Ben Johnson is the biggest fish in the pond this coaching cycle, and he just so happens to coach the right side of the ball. For once, I'd love to see the Bears make the obvious hire and stop being afraid of paying big money for a coach in high demand, like Johnson.

I think this is right about the Bears not going for the big fish.

You're also right that there are countless examples of offensive and defensive coordinators that have failed as head coach, and a handful of each that have succeeded. One cant say that because someone is an offensive guy that they are more likely to fail - it's probably the reverse - the offensive coordinators probably have a small edge on the defensive ones as far as head coach success. I think in the end it comes down to the guy, and whether he will be a good head coach or not.

To me, Vrabel is as big a fish as Johnson, and I agree that int he past the Bears would have avoided them both.

Let's hope we land a big fish, and arent put off by money or brash personalities or any of the things the Bears have avoided before, and make a solid hire.

I personally prefer Vrabel, because he is a proven head coach, and has the leadership qualities i think are crucial for us. But in that case, we'd also need a killer OC, I agree.

I also think that all the arguments Im hearing for Johnson revolve around him being an OC for us, and I havent really heard anyone assert that he's their favorite candidate because of any of the skills a head coach needs - just his offensive brilliance as a coordinator.

 

[Mongo3451]

2 hours ago, Alaskan Grizzly said:

The only issue I have with bringing the ‘next greatest thing’ at OC as the next HC … been there done that. With Cutler it was Marc Trestman and with Trubisky it was Nagy.  (Technically they tried to bring in Martz and Gase as OCs for Cutler and still it didn’t work).   Other places have tried and failed too… Daboll with the Giants, Callahan with the Titans, and the aforementioned Josh McDaniels (Broncos and Raiders).   

I wouldn't call Marc Trestman a successful offensive coordinator.  For one reason or another, he didn't stick anywhere for long.  Nagy wasn't the talent.  Everyone knows it's Reid.  Gase was a hot new name and was hired because of Cutler.  Josh McDaniel, see Tom Brady.  Mike Martz's offense requires the perfect talent.  Daboll was hamstrung by Daniel Jones.

Ben Johnson is the only one that built something from the ground up.  He took Jared Goff from a throw away to a stud.  We didn't think Montgomery was the answer and he made him better.  He knows how to utilize speed and power from the running back position.  He schemes well for the talent he works with.  Of course he benefits from having a great, but it shows what he can do with our people when we fix it.

[BearFan PHX]

25 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

I wouldn't call Marc Trestman a successful offensive coordinator.  For one reason or another, he didn't stick anywhere for long.  Nagy wasn't the talent.  Everyone knows it's Reid.  Gase was a hot new name and was hired because of Cutler.  Josh McDaniel, see Tom Brady.  Mike Martz's offense requires the perfect talent.  Daboll was hamstrung by Daniel Jones.

Ben Johnson is the only one that built something from the ground up.  He took Jared Goff from a throw away to a stud.  We didn't think Montgomery was the answer and he made him better.  He knows how to utilize speed and power from the running back position.  He schemes well for the talent he works with.  Of course he benefits from having a great, but it shows what he can do with our people when we fix it.

yeah Im not one that thinks that an OC is destined to fail. Everyone was an OC or a DC once. And being an OC isnt a bad thing at all. With a QB like Caleb, it's a bonus.

I just think we need someone who shows skills as a HC, and all I really hear about Johnson is what a great OC he is. So I dont know what kind of HC he would be. That means he could be great too - I just dont know. He doesnt strike me as particularly alpha though in press conferences and mic'd up film. And he doesnt need to be imposing like Vrabel, Im not looking for a cartoon. Guys with similar body types like McVey, Shanahan and even Kingsbury have more presence to me. So I worry about Johnson, but he is definitely a great OC and could well prove my concerns wrong I fully admit.

It's just that I see Vrabel there just dripping with leadership, and I think "he will attract good OC candidates and so will Caleb," and so I think about having a HC at HC instead of using the HC to get in an OC?

Not saying an OC cant be a head coach, but I am saying that I dont see anyone arguing how much talent Johnson has at the skills a HC needs, they just wish he was our OC basically, and so do I, but HC is a different thing, and I dont see anything that tells me hes a sure fire success at those skills?

I dont hate Johnson, but I would take Vrabel over him easily if the choice was mine?

[jason]

10 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

I think we definitly need someone to work with Caleb but if Johnson fails as a HC we wont be much better than we are right now. Caleb has the talent that will shine thru whether its with the perfect OC or an average one. A good defense and running helps Caleb just as much as a perfect OC. 

Ugh. When are Bears fans going to stop this mentality? 

With all due respect, the Bears need to go absolutely all in with Caleb. Absolutely Everything should be for his progression, protection, and advancement. 

Just good enough for an OC won’t cut it.

[BearFan PHX]

4 minutes ago, jason said:

Ugh. When are Bears fans going to stop this mentality? 

With all due respect, the Bears need to go absolutely all in with Caleb. Absolutely Everything should be for his progression, protection, and advancement. 

Just good enough for an OC won’t cut it.

right. get a great HC and a great OC and a great OL etc - winning takes all of that!

[Mongo3451]

4 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

I dont hate Johnson, but I would take Vrabel over him easily if the choice was mine?

I think Vrabel is the safest choice.  Johnson could be boom or bust.  I'll take either.  My top choice is still Gruden.

[BearFan PHX]

18 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

I think Vrabel is the safest choice.  Johnson could be boom or bust.  I'll take either.  My top choice is still Gruden.

I dont think Gruden can hold a locker room after the racist stuff he wrote. He literally compared a black guys lips to car tires. So if anything at all goes wrong, the locker room could quit on him easily. That might not be fair, but it is what it is. If he hadnt done that, then yeah Id be all in, he has great energy and a great football mind too.

I also agree that Johnson could do really well. I love him as OC, he's awesome. I just dont see the HC leadership that Campbell provides on that Lions team coming with Johnson. IF we choose him I will be very happy to be wrong about it.

[Mongo3451]

15 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

I dont think Gruden can hold a locker room after the racist stuff he wrote. He literally compared a black guys lips to car tires.

His players completely stood for him.  I'm sorry, but that dude had beyond enormous lips.  Black or white, we used to bust each other's balls over mental and physical traits.  That's just locker room mentality.  Being a teammate transcends race.  Same with military.  That being said, you're probably right, from the McCaskey perspective.  They want Jesus, not what Jesus would do...

[BearFan PHX]

16 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

His players completely stood for him.  I'm sorry, but that dude had beyond enormous lips.  Black or white, we used to bust each other's balls over mental and physical traits.  That's just locker room mentality.  Being a teammate transcends race.  Same with military.  That being said, you're probably right, from the McCaskey perspective.  They want Jesus, not what Jesus would do...

Oh yeah, I understand the difference between being hateful and being funny. I'm not weighing in on what he said.

I'm saying that should we encounter a rough patch, it would be easy for this locker room to abandon him, and use that as a rallying cry. Especially after Eberflus was so corny and weak?

[Mongo3451]

47 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

Oh yeah, I understand the difference between being hateful and being funny. I'm not weighing in on what he said.

I'm saying that should we encounter a rough patch, it would be easy for this locker room to abandon him, and use that as a rallying cry. Especially after Eberflus was so corny and weak?

Athletes respect leaders, period.  Athletes don't care how they get there.  Just get there.  That is the end game.  The locker room would only get stuck Gruden after success.  Same as Belichick.  He was fortunate to have Brady hold it together by taking smaller contacts with his unselfishness.

[BearFan PHX]

5 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Athletes respect leaders, period.  Athletes don't care how they get there.  Just get there.  That is the end game.  The locker room would only get stuck Gruden after success.  Same as Belichick.  He was fortunate to have Brady hold it together by taking smaller contacts with his unselfishness.

If they choose Gruden, I'm gonna be all in on him. That one sensationalist scandal aside, which was really not about football at all, I think he'd be fantastic. And if they hire him, I will root for him.

I can easily agree and say that without that particular issue, I'd be very open to him as head coach too.

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

I dont think Gruden can hold a locker room after the racist stuff he wrote. He literally compared a black guys lips to car tires. So if anything at all goes wrong, the locker room could quit on him easily. That might not be fair, but it is what it is. If he hadnt done that, then yeah Id be all in, he has great energy and a great football mind too.

I also agree that Johnson could do really well. I love him as OC, he's awesome. I just dont see the HC leadership that Campbell provides on that Lions team coming with Johnson. IF we choose him I will be very happy to be wrong about it.

Do you have a source  as to why Gruden was forced to resign ? I was never able to find his email information that got him in trouble. 

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, Mongo3451 said:

I think Vrabel is the safest choice.  Johnson could be boom or bust.  I'll take either.  My top choice is still Gruden.

I have always had those same thoughts.

I hope Dabol gets fired from NY and Vrabel gets the job wirh DaBol as OC, he's the one that developed Josh Allen. That's my realistic projection.

[BearFan PHX]

14 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Do you have a source  as to why Gruden was forced to resign ? I was never able to find his email information that got him in trouble. 

here's one. I'm not particularly upset about locker room talk myself, but you asked, so here it is for context.

I just worry that people will use it against him when they have other true agendas, and apparently he went after Goodell too, which could screw us. But I just say this as concerns, I'm not actively campaigning against Gruden myself.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/las-vegas-raiders-coach-jon-gruden-resigns-over-racist-homophobic-n1281295

 

[Stinger226]

13 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

here's one. I'm not particularly upset about locker room talk myself, but you asked, so here it is for context.

I just worry that people will use it against him when they have other true agendas, and apparently he went after Goodell too, which could screw us. But I just say this as concerns, I'm not actively campaigning against Gruden myself.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/las-vegas-raiders-coach-jon-gruden-resigns-over-racist-homophobic-n1281295

 

I get it, I played sports and worked construction for 50 yrs and stupid crap got said all the time and have never seen anyone get upset over it. It was mostly done in a jacking with each other sort of way. Tahnks for the read. Everyone has said stupid crap in their life and you need to judge by how people treat each other. There are people that talk politically correct and then turn around and treat people like crap. 

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

There are people that talk politically correct and then turn around and treat people like crap. 

exactly, and thats what i worry about. That someone uses this when he stumbles in some way - like loses a few games for example?

[Stinger226]

7 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

exactly, and thats what i worry about. That someone uses this when he stumbles in some way - like loses a few games for example?

Once something is public it never goes away, true, but I think he walks into a team that is ready to win. One good offseason and we start winning regularly and the trash talking will be minor. He has never had a history of treating people differently but his speak got him in trouble. I dont think he walks in here and players revolt on him because of those comments. The winning will remedy everything. If we are talking about losing streaks then he was a bad choice anyways but we cant predict the future.