Good Football

[BearFan PHX]

OK! So instead of rehashing what an awful situation we are in, and how much I want Vrabel lol I thought I'd start a thread about good football. Good coaching, smart plays.

So here's an awesome fake punt, and the backstory on how they got there is even better. THAT is coaching!
 

 

[adam]

I love the guy in motion on the punt. Even if you still punt it, that would take my attention away for a sec.

[Stinger226]

Maybe we should have a bad football thread to co exist also. Campbell makes some good decisions that look good and bad decisions that doesnt work out. In certain situations some things work and others would not be successful. A great play design could be blown up by a penalty but still would have been a good football play. Kramer blow up a perfect red zone play on a penalty and then when they did it again it worked out.

[adam]

35 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Maybe we should have a bad football thread to co exist also. Campbell makes some good decisions that look good and bad decisions that doesnt work out. In certain situations some things work and others would not be successful. A great play design could be blown up by a penalty but still would have been a good football play. Kramer blow up a perfect red zone play on a penalty and then when they did it again it worked out.

I love Campbell as a motivator, but I think he is average at best for in game management. I mean, if you are going to go for it on EVERY 4th Down, that's not really management. Like the onside kick, even if they got it somehow, that was still a dumb decision. I think the Lions will look vastly different when they have a different OC and DC next year. They will still be good because the roster is stacked, but I think they will be more of a 9 to 10 win team that is at the WC level compared to where they are now.

[Lucky Luciano]

GOOD FOOTBALL?? maybe, maybe not...

this is a MAJOR problem in today's NFL: the 12th man on the field, the referee's.

Over the last 15+ years professional football has nearly (if not truly) become an exhibition rather than a sport. maybe similar to all star wrestling where the outcome is preordained. especially since the NFL has locked in step with professional gambling. who is REALLY paying the refs salaries?

in my opinion only, the refs can and are shaving points and actual outcomes of who wins and who loses. this brings the outcomes to the vegas gambling syndicates determining the final outcomes of score and wins and losses. the NFL itself has done nothing, if not actually promote, this scenario in multiple ways.

1. a multi BILLION dollar corporation still will NOT hire permanent full time professional referee's who are accountable for their actions. this in itself is a very curious scenario. ask yourself why? who are the watchdogs over this very important aspect of the NFL. are they proclaiming to just be saving money? that sure doesn't wash with me. in the past ANY gambling aspects related to professional sports was not only frowned upon but actively attacked by the leagues whether they be baseball, football or any other major sport. now they are promoted in ads during the games.

2. the NFL actually promotes point shaving and referee misconduct. they have made the rules so ambiguous that nearly ANY call or non call is correct. this leaves the refs to regulate the flow of the game and the final scores and outcomes. to me it seems clear, early in the games whatever team that they may project to win receives multiple calls, non calls, at critical junctions in critical drives in their favor. these shadow calls non-calls could happen multiple times throughout the game on both sides but are not done so. usually this occurs when a game pivot point is happening. then to 'smooth' over these critical calls against one opponent they start flagging the other opponent when the game is usually in hand  by who they wish to be effected.

why you ask, would they do this? the simple answer is MONEY. it's TV rights/marketshare, advertising kickbacks, NFL product sales, fan attendance, superbowl market money and yes, kickbacks from the gambling circuits who pay for NFL advertising and logo rights and probably much, much more.

so ask yourself... is what you are watching real sports or just a money making projection?

[AZ54]

You mean the refs won't call holding on the Packers?  

[Lucky Luciano]

3 hours ago, AZ54 said:

You mean the refs won't call holding on the Packers?  

the packers are certainly one team that clearly gets preferred treatment from the refs game to game. it is so clearly obvious i don't know how these ref teams even keep their jobs. roughing the passer is a joke especially when it involved rogers or favre. i remember cuttler getting beat to a pulp after the ball was released with no flags at all. same with bears crucial holding penalties and DB's pass inter. any team playing the bears has the luxury of the 12th man on the field.

it also relates to other teams in the league like KC, used to be NE and others.

[BearFan PHX]

2 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

the packers are certainly one team that clearly gets preferred treatment from the refs game to game. it is so clearly obvious i don't know how these ref teams even keep their jobs. roughing the passer is a joke especially when it involved rogers or favre. i remember cuttler getting beat to a pulp after the ball was released with no flags at all. same with bears crucial holding penalties and DB's pass inter. any team playing the bears has the luxury of the 12th man on the field.

it also relates to other teams in the league like KC, used to be NE and others.

it's the unfair advantage that comes with winning. hopefully we enjoy it some day too!

[Lucky Luciano]

15 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

it's the unfair advantage that comes with winning. hopefully we enjoy it some day too!

the unfair advantage that comes with winning? if what i stated is true it is more than that. it is determining WHO is winning by a source other than actual play on the field.

[Stinger226]

There is no overall conspricy by refs to overturn games. Football is to random of a sport to try to even implement that. Now individually, it could happen but lately refs have been getting together to go over a call and making group decisions that would deter that. The 12th player on the field has been terrible this yr but it would so hard to try to blow one call that could change a game. If a ref consistantly makes backs calls, he gets less and less job time, so to affect a game, he would be out of the league in one yr. 

Im not sayng it isnt possible just not probable. Use tne Bears as an example, in the Hail Mary play there could have been a holding penalty called but rarely are those ever called in games. The Bears came back in that game so it would be hard to predict that play happening to change a game. Odds of us being in that position was slim so how would you pay a ref to change the game on that one play? Also the first Minny game, we scored 11 points in 52 seconds, who would predict that to happen  to get to a point to throw the game. We were already ahead of the point spread.

[Lucky Luciano]

2 hours ago, Stinger226 said:

There is no overall conspricy by refs to overturn games. Football is to random of a sport to try to even implement that. Now individually, it could happen but lately refs have been getting together to go over a call and making group decisions that would deter that. The 12th player on the field has been terrible this yr but it would so hard to try to blow one call that could change a game. If a ref consistantly makes backs calls, he gets less and less job time, so to affect a game, he would be out of the league in one yr. 

Im not sayng it isnt possible just not probable. Use tne Bears as an example, in the Hail Mary play there could have been a holding penalty called but rarely are those ever called in games. The Bears came back in that game so it would be hard to predict that play happening to change a game. Odds of us being in that position was slim so how would you pay a ref to change the game on that one play? Also the first Minny game, we scored 11 points in 52 seconds, who would predict that to happen  to get to a point to throw the game. We were already ahead of the point spread.

dude, if you have refs that are tuned into calling penalties in a game it doesn't have to be one designated play at a designated time script. it's the concept of changing important drives/play outcomes and scores during the game (usually early in games) that influences the percentages in key situations that give a team the advantage overall. that is how gambling works, on percentages.

if refs take away sure points from a team they want to by calling penalties it effects the ENTIRE game. such as... if they call a red zone penalty and change it from the possibility of a TD into a FG that is a HUGE influx of who wins and who loses and how the rest of the game is choreographed by the coordinators. if one team gets behind by multiple scores or misses scoring because of penalties don't you think that effects the type of play calling used by the team that is down? it creates an offset percentage of high risk vs. high percentage attacking defense or offensive calls.

this is a FACT.. penalties stall drives and force punts or FG rather than TD's more times than not. there is no debate that this is true.

as a whole, the refs in one unit could be working together to effect outcome or even if it was just one ref in the unit it could be done the same way as i stated. the rules are so ambiguous that the other refs can't challenge a call that is correct/bad either way or a NON call such as a PI or holding call. it is scripted by the NFL rule book GIVING the refs the power to call a game any way they want to without being wrong.

in any case explain why it is so bad. what is your take on why there is such diversity game to game, team to team.

if bad or non calls are plainly obvious to fans shouldn't the people being paid to do this job know it too? shouldn't the freaking LEAGUE, the freaking NFL know this too? do you really think they are that stupid? to do nothing when it is clearly obvious to anybody with even half a brain that they know nothing is ludicrous.

when was the last time any refs were reprimanded or fired by the NFL? does the NFL investigate any of these refs in question? inquiring minds want to know.

EDIT: "There is no overall conspricy by refs to overturn games." and you know this is a fact? clue me in. where are are your sources to state that?

[jason]

On 12/20/2024 at 4:50 AM, Stinger226 said:

Maybe we should have a bad football thread to co exist also. Campbell makes some good decisions that look good and bad decisions that doesnt work out. In certain situations some things work and others would not be successful. A great play design could be blown up by a penalty but still would have been a good football play. Kramer blow up a perfect red zone play on a penalty and then when they did it again it worked out.

That thread will be far too long on this board. We have decades of plays to choose bad football.

[BearFan PHX]

Here is a great video about how Ben Johnson uses plays to set up other plays. How he leverages a strong offensive line into wide open middle passing routes.

I just want to say i LOVE Ben Johnson as an OC. I wont belabor the point that I am unsure of him as a head coach here, but he is a really great OC. Maybe he will be a great head coach too. I just dont have any evidence either way which is why I'm on the fence.

But this thread is about good football, and this certainly qualifies. You have to follow the link to youtube to see it, but its worth it if you havent yet. It's what every offensive coordinator SHOULD be doing - using plays and formations to scout tendencies and then using what you learn to set up your opponent for failure later in the game.

As you watch this, you may wonder why we never seem to be doing anything like this. Also, it's interesting to note that Ben Johnson's mentor was John Shoop.
 

 

[BearFan PHX]

 

 

[jason]

On 12/21/2024 at 2:54 PM, BearFan PHX said:

Also, it's interesting to note that Ben Johnson's mentor was John Shoop.

I once saw someone spin a sharp knife in the air and try to catch it by the handle. He didn’t. He ended up in the ER getting stitches.

I also saw a dude jump off 2nd story balcony with a sheet as a parachute substitute. He broke his ankle.

I learned from both of those guys. I don’t flip knives or jump of 2nd story balconies.

[jason]

On 12/21/2024 at 7:25 AM, Lucky Luciano said:

EDIT: "There is no overall conspricy by refs to overturn games." and you know this is a fact? clue me in. where are are your sources to state that?

I know this. It’s a fact. I have officiated with multiple people who are NFL officials. I have talked with several other high level and retired officials. I’m acquaintances with a couple dozen high level NCAA officials who are in the NFL developmental program and their recruiting pipeline. There is no conspiracy. There is no way they’re all in on it. Furthermore, the ones I know are far too upstanding and hyper-critical of their craft to even attempt to purposely cheat. They simply couldn’t stomach it.

What I can say, however, is that the NFL can push what they call points of emphasis that benefit certain team’s playing styles. That’s why QBs are more and more protected. The NFL can also point out specific team tendencies they’d like “fixed,” like when a defense back is too handsy and isn’t getting called for it. That naturally leads to greater offensive production.

[BearFan PHX]

Oh, I have nothing but praise for Johnson's skills as an OC. The comment about shoop was just funny,a nd true, but it is obvious by what he's done that he is a superior OC.

I do have questions about him as HC, but he is no John Shoop  for sure. I mean, the video I posted was all about Johnson's offensive genius.

[Lucky Luciano]

6 hours ago, jason said:

I know this. It’s a fact. I have officiated with multiple people who are NFL officials. I have talked with several other high level and retired officials. I’m acquaintances with a couple dozen high level NCAA officials who are in the NFL developmental program and their recruiting pipeline. There is no conspiracy. There is no way they’re all in on it. Furthermore, the ones I know are far too upstanding and hyper-critical of their craft to even attempt to purposely cheat. They simply couldn’t stomach it.

What I can say, however, is that the NFL can push what they call points of emphasis that benefit certain team’s playing styles. That’s why QBs are more and more protected. The NFL can also point out specific team tendencies they’d like “fixed,” like when a defense back is too handsy and isn’t getting called for it. That naturally leads to greater offensive production.

ok, then why is there a HUGE discrepancy on who gets the calls and who doesn't get the favorable calls. it seems the darling teams get these calls at critical junctures in a game and that can't be just a coincidence as often as you see it. the same instances for the penalty/non-penalty happen throughout the game on both sides yet magically the flags fly when certain teams are moving the ball or in scoring position. as a fact, the rules are made so the refs can control the outcome. there is no good call and no bad call. the refs are ALWAYS right and that can be manipulated by the gambling cartels.

it doesn't take the entire ref collective to be on the take to shape multiple games.

i am not big on conspiracies without proven facts but when the obvious keeps slapping you in the face it is certainly a cause for concern that the nfl should investigate just to keep itself above the stench.

[Stinger226]

2 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

ok, then why is there a HUGE discrepancy on who gets the calls and who doesn't get the favorable calls. it seems the darling teams get these calls at critical junctures in a game and that can't be just a coincidence as often as you see it. the same instances for the penalty/non-penalty happen throughout the game on both sides yet magically the flags fly when certain teams are moving the ball or in scoring position. as a fact, the rules are made so the refs can control the outcome. there is no good call and no bad call. the refs are ALWAYS right and that can be manipulated by the gambling cartels.

it doesn't take the entire ref collective to be on the take to shape multiple games.

i am not big on conspiracies without proven facts but when the obvious keeps slapping you in the face it is certainly a cause for concern that the nfl should investigate just to keep itself above the stench.

Of course it is very possible a ref in one game could make a bad call to change a game. They have been huddling after a call to get the calls right on a lot of plays, you need several involved to get a call pushed thru, chances of that are very thin.  I think incompetance is a reasonable take also.

[Lucky Luciano]

19 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Of course it is very possible a ref in one game could make a bad call to change a game. They have been huddling after a call to get the calls right on a lot of plays, you need several involved to get a call pushed thru, chances of that are very thin.  I think incompetance is a reasonable take also.

the POINT is that nearly EVERY call they make is a legitimate call no matter what it is. how is it possible for them to overturn a legitimate call? it is the freaking TIMING and who that call is against that are the key factors. if they are NOT influencing games purposely why are the flags or non flags benefiting certain teams every single week? if they are truly that inconsistent and incompetent how could they keep their jobs?

this boils down to the NFL collective yet again. they make the rules and have not even bothered to hire professional refs full time. WHY is that?

[jason]

15 hours ago, Lucky Luciano said:

ok, then why is there a HUGE discrepancy on who gets the calls and who doesn't get the favorable calls. it seems the darling teams get these calls at critical junctures in a game and that can't be just a coincidence as often as you see it. the same instances for the penalty/non-penalty happen throughout the game on both sides yet magically the flags fly when certain teams are moving the ball or in scoring position. as a fact, the rules are made so the refs can control the outcome. there is no good call and no bad call. the refs are ALWAYS right and that can be manipulated by the gambling cartels.

it doesn't take the entire ref collective to be on the take to shape multiple games.

i am not big on conspiracies without proven facts but when the obvious keeps slapping you in the face it is certainly a cause for concern that the nfl should investigate just to keep itself above the stench.

First, I’d say it’s just perception bias.

Second, and no disrespect to you, is fan ignorance. Over 99.9% of the fanbase hasn’t read the rule book for the league they’re watching.

Third, fans don’t truly understand the mechanics or philosophies of officiating, much less NFL officiating. In other words, the layman doesn’t know what officials are watching, why they’re watching it, how long they’re watching it, and what truly constitutes a foul. 

Last, no one but insiders understand NFL points of emphasis, and why the NFL decides to draw attention to specific types of fouls. They get directive and scouting reports every pregame.

Having said all that, it’s possible that a very small number could be purposely cheating like the NBA scandal. But they get harshly graded every game, and that wouldn’t last long. Further, officials often have overlapping responsibilities, and many bad calls would get overriden by colleagues who challenge the call. 

Possible? Sure. But so is winning the Powerball.

[Stinger226]

6 hours ago, jason said:

First, I’d say it’s just perception bias.

Second, and no disrespect to you, is fan ignorance. Over 99.9% of the fanbase hasn’t read the rule book for the league they’re watching.

Third, fans don’t truly understand the mechanics or philosophies of officiating, much less NFL officiating. In other words, the layman doesn’t know what officials are watching, why they’re watching it, how long they’re watching it, and what truly constitutes a foul. 

Last, no one but insiders understand NFL points of emphasis, and why the NFL decides to draw attention to specific types of fouls. They get directive and scouting reports every pregame.

Having said all that, it’s possible that a very small number could be purposely cheating like the NBA scandal. But they get harshly graded every game, and that wouldn’t last long. Further, officials often have overlapping responsibilities, and many bad calls would get overriden by colleagues who challenge the call. 

Possible? Sure. But so is winning the Powerball.

I totally get an individual ref could be bought but to have several conspice together would almost be impossible. Its not just about getting fired if caught but go to jail for that . Not only do the refs get together to get the call right but the NFL has refs in the NFL offices overseeing their choices. I think incompetence is much more possible and have bias to the good teams and why they get more calls.

[Lucky Luciano]

Quote

First, I’d say it’s just perception bias.

Second, and no disrespect to you, is fan ignorance. Over 99.9% of the fanbase hasn’t read the rule book for the league they’re watching.

i agree with this statement that i have not read the rule books, but ignorance of what i have been watching for over 60 years is somewhat a stretch. it doesn't take a rule book decision to see during the SAME game that the flag thrown penalty was perpetrated NUMEROUS times and even WORSE and NOT flagged on both teams. that is a true statement as i have watched it happen. this is not a question of interpreting the rules/ruling and whether it is correct or not. it is a question of why and when the refs decide to throw the flag for the SAME offense or not.

as i have stated, the rules are, or certainly appear to be, so ambiguous that nearly any call is supported by the rules and NOT wrong. the fact is they could call a holding penalty nearly on every single play if they chose to and not be wrong according to the rules. this is why the rules for the NFL need to be overhauled to make them more precise as to what actually is or is NOT a foul.

Quote

Third, fans don’t truly understand the mechanics or philosophies of officiating, much less NFL officiating. In other words, the layman doesn’t know what officials are watching, why they’re watching it, how long they’re watching it, and what truly constitutes a foul. 

many fans understand what they are watching right before their eyes (i know i do). if i see an offensive lineman with his arm around a defenders neck holding him back and not being flagged then at another junction in the game seeing the same type of instance being called a penalty what am i supposed to think? is it a holding call that is correct or is it not? as it turns out i believe they are BOTH correct. if he calls it the rules support it. if he doesn't the rules or norms for a holding penalty support that ALSO. that is what makes it a game that is truly controlled by the refs and NOT the players and the play on the field.

the more obvious ones are roughing the passer. if you watched ANY games when cutler was qb (in fact most bear qb's) they allowed him/them to be beaten to a pulp while the darling qb's who got even breathed upon got the flag protecting them. that is bias when the same crew or official lets one qb take a beating and the other gets the protection as projected by the rules.

i will give you a perfect example of this.... favre with the vikings (as much as i hated this guy) was literally mauled by the saints in a playoff game. it was so obvious that this was happening i couldn't believe it. even in the 60's or 70's when qb's could take a legal beating what they did to him in this game would have been flagged multiple times for roughing. yet nothing. they wanted the saints in the superbowl that year and that is what they got. explain that.
 

Quote

 

Last, no one but insiders understand NFL points of emphasis, and why the NFL decides to draw attention to specific types of fouls. They get directive and scouting reports every pregame.

Having said all that, it’s possible that a very small number could be purposely cheating like the NBA scandal. But they get harshly graded every game, and that wouldn’t last long. Further, officials often have overlapping responsibilities, and many bad calls would get overriden by colleagues who challenge the call. 

Possible? Sure. But so is winning the Powerball.

 

well that i don't agree with. of COURSE fans understand the points of emphasis. you would have to be an idiot robot not to. the NFL relaxed the rule books to emphasize offensive scoring to keep the mindless drones from getting bored by a low scoring defensive game. all to boost ratings by collecting the stupid into their fan base for the purposes of making more MONEY. to do this they loosened the rules on holding calls, how OL's can lineup at the LOS, pass interference calls, the brady tuck rule, changed the out of bounds stopping the clock rule so they could get more commercials in and shorten the game on broadcast tv., blind side blocks, and many other instances. they also loosened the gambling parameters so now they freaking advertise gambling during the freaking games. why do you suppose this is?

you mention bad calls getting overturned. even with booth review i have seen them getting it obviously wrong. add to this factor the PENALTIES are not reviewable. this is the key factor if you want to manipulate the scores and outcome of a game. at the very least the teams should have 2 red flags just to question bad or non existent penalties called/not called. this also leads to where in many games the flags fly against certain teams at critical junctions in the game. later the refs seem to make it seem unbiased by flagging the opponent who usual has the game in hand by this time. tell me how another official can overturn a fellow ref if the rules are not violated? this again goes hand in hand with rules without any real meaning or black and white rules.

this leads inquiring minds to wondering are they shaving points or manipulating the actual outcome of games? they are not going outside of the rules per se' but the results are the same. it doesn't even take an entire crew to do this just the others not being able to call the ref on it because the rule is soft and not a hard one.

[jason]

Regarding rules, you’re mistaken. It’s more about the intricacy of the verbiage, and how a single word or a comma can make something legal or illegal. Trust me, you don’t really know. For instance, if I said PSK to a fellow official, they know what it is and the implications immediately. For example, the foul in high school is horse collar tackle, which implies the tackle has to happen to get the foul. But that doesn’t hold true in the NCAA or NFL.

The rules are FAR from ambiguous, but whether or not the officials call the fouls is different. I used to be the liaison between a large officials group and dozens of coaches, and literally the top two things they wanted and mentioned were communication and consistency. So your consistency argument has some validity. However, consistency also has to do with a variety of factors related to each type of foul.

You and all smart fans understand general points of emphasis, but not specifics related to what the league wants, which players the league has identified, techniques for which they are seeing trends. I’ve seen numerous NFL officiating training videos and best believe they narrow down to minute details.

As for overturning a call, it really just comes down to one official saying, “Hey Jim, I had a great view of that one. It wasn’t a foul. You should come off of it.” When an official trusts his crew, he would agree to wave off the flag.