Is Kingsbury now a better option than Johnson?

[Stinger226]

Some people think that Kingsbury has did a better job with a rookie QB than Johnson with Goff. 

Pluses:  former HC 

               Has developed QBs 

               Has a relationship with Caleb 

              Did have some success but failed after Murray got hurt.

He may be looked at as a viable candidate for a HC job.

[AZ54]

19 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Some people think that Kingsbury has did a better job with a rookie QB than Johnson with Goff. 

Pluses:  former HC 

               Has developed QBs 

               Has a relationship with Caleb 

              Did have some success but failed after Murray got hurt.

He may be looked at as a viable candidate for a HC job.

For the Raiders. 

[ASHKUM BEAR]

He has a bad taste in his mouth from the OC interview.  He was used and knew it. 

He declined to comment after his I terview when asked how it went.  

[AZ54]

Let's not get too far ahead of our skis because Jayden Daniels and Kingsbury were picking on Kindle Vildor and some other CB who belongs on a practice squad.   And why was Kingsbury calling so many QB runs in a playoff game?  Is that something you want to see called for Caleb?  I don't.  I don't mind mixing in a few plays just to keep the defense thinking about it.   

[BearFan PHX]

Watching the game tonight, really the first full game I've seen of the Commanders this year, I was left feeling exactly the same about Jayden Daniels as i did before the draft.

The guy has a monster arm, is crazy accurate on long throws, runs well, and is a one read QB. I watched his helmet on every pass play and I only saw 2 where he moved his head to look somewhere else. One of them, he was just looking off the defender so he could go back to the guy he'd been staring down.

Obviously Kingsbury has designed an offense to maximize Daniels' abilities, and it looks deadly. I feel like this same offense could have gotten the best out of Justin Fields too. This isn't the offense I'd run for Caleb at all. But all I can say about Kingsbury is he ran the right offense for the guy he had. I can't say he would have the same scheme with Caleb at all. Kingsbury may be a jerk, but he is definitely a bright offensive mind.

On the other side of the field, Johnson is a master of the running game. His scheme is solid, and of course he has a great OL and two good backs. most coaches would look good with that, but Johnson clearly shows a mastery of run fits that a lot of teams would love to have. So it isn't just the roster. But would those run fits work with an inferior OL and RBs? I doubt it.

Johnson also had some nice trick plays - very clever stuff. The reverse shovel pass is something I've never seen. Really cool.

As far as sideline demeanor, I thought Kingsbury had more fire and Johnson was more in his head.

I respect Johnson, but I'm really not sure he's a good gamble for us. That doesnt mean I know he will be a bad choice, more like it's a coin flip, and that's a lot to gamble Caleb on. i wouldnt do it, but if we do, theres still a good chance it'll work out well too.

I'm not even sure Kingsbury is a high choice from me to be head coach either, but I feel like he would have the edge with me if I could only choose from those two.

One thing is clear. Whoever we get as our next coach, OL coach Chris Morgan is gone. And that is a start!

[Lucky Luciano]

goff lost that game. the lions should have won by a lot. the offense had multiple opportunities to come back but goff kept throwing int's at critical junctures. he is responsible for at least 21 point against the lions. nothing wrong with the lions offense i could see.

[Mongo3451]

Washington faces a team decimated with injuries on the defensive side of the ball.  I've not seen a team hold on so long with 13 defenders on season ending IR.  On top of that, they have a DB break an arm early in the game. 

End of day, Lucky said it right.  Goff had a terrible game.  Johnson had nothing to do with the loss.

[Stinger226]

Daniels keeps showing off his great traits. Clearly the top rookie this year. Just shows you what good coaching can do for you. It produces wins. I hope history shows there was several top 10 QBs in this draft because  Nix and Daniels have a head start on stardom. I still think Caleb will be a star if he ever gets out of the habit of holding the ball to long and becomes more accurate. 

[Mongo3451]

7 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Daniels keeps showing off his great traits. Clearly the top rookie this year. Just shows you what good coaching can do for you. It produces wins. I hope history shows there was several top 10 QBs in this draft because  Nix and Daniels have a head start on stardom. I still think Caleb will be a star if he ever gets out of the habit of holding the ball to long and becomes more accurate. 

Caleb does need to get it out quicker.  Better scheme will get the first read open more often.  It's tough when when your LT is getting dog walked as your center whiffs on a delayed stunt.

[Stinger226]

6 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

Caleb does need to get it out quicker.  Better scheme will get the first read open more often.  It's tough when when your LT is getting dog walked as your center whiffs on a delayed stunt.

Totally agree but more reason for a QB to throw it away or dumb the ball off quickly to the back. So many times he just took the sack which makes me question his blitz recognition.

[AZ54]

41 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Totally agree but more reason for a QB to throw it away or dumb the ball off quickly to the back. So many times he just took the sack which makes me question his blitz recognition.

Yes.  Just like his film at USC Caleb's fatal flaw is holding onto the ball too long waiting for a really big play to show up.  In doing that he often missed nice 5, 10, or even 15yd gains.  Kingsbury was working with him at USC and we know for a fact Kingsbury could not get him to play on time.   Jayden Daniels is the opposite where he wants to stay in the rhythm of the play (i.e. first read).  I think on the flip side we can all see that Caleb is  better at reading and understanding defenses.  If only he could accept the easy play they give him.  

We need a meticulous and demanding coach to get it out of Caleb.  Also someone who sets up the plays for success (i.e. no more 3 WRs in the same location on the field).   I can't say for sure who that is but if we find him, I think we can have a Pro Bowl QB on our hands.   I lean toward Ben Johnson because of his 3 year track record in Detroit.  By the way Johnson never had the luxury of a running QB so all he's been able to do is with Goff in the pocket.  There's a lot of NFL offense that he can add to what he did in Detroit if he works with Caleb.  Plays will break down for any offense in the NFL at times but Caleb is far better than Goff at improvising.  He should be salivating at the prospect of what can be.   

[Stinger226]

35 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

Yes.  Just like his film at USC Caleb's fatal flaw is holding onto the ball too long waiting for a really big play to show up.  In doing that he often missed nice 5, 10, or even 15yd gains.  Kingsbury was working with him at USC and we know for a fact Kingsbury could not get him to play on time.   Jayden Daniels is the opposite where he wants to stay in the rhythm of the play (i.e. first read).  I think on the flip side we can all see that Caleb is  better at reading and understanding defenses.  If only he could accept the easy play they give him.  

We need a meticulous and demanding coach to get it out of Caleb.  Also someone who sets up the plays for success (i.e. no more 3 WRs in the same location on the field).   I can't say for sure who that is but if we find him, I think we can have a Pro Bowl QB on our hands.   I lean toward Ben Johnson because of his 3 year track record in Detroit.  By the way Johnson never had the luxury of a running QB so all he's been able to do is with Goff in the pocket.  There's a lot of NFL offense that he can add to what he did in Detroit if he works with Caleb.  Plays will break down for any offense in the NFL at times but Caleb is far better than Goff at improvising.  He should be salivating at the prospect of what can be.   

What I like about Johnson is his reliance on the running game to set up the passing game.  Balance is a good place to be in the NFL. 

[adam]

The Lions scored 31 pts in the playoffs with 4 INTs and a fumble lost. 

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, adam said:

The Lions scored 31 pts in the playoffs with 4 INTs and a fumble lost. 

The TOs cost them points.

[BearFan PHX]

7 hours ago, adam said:

The Lions scored 31 pts in the playoffs with 4 INTs and a fumble lost. 

yes, that wasnt on Johnson, I agree.

[Mongo3451]

On 1/19/2025 at 1:29 AM, BearFan PHX said:

The guy has a monster arm, is crazy accurate on long throws, runs well, and is a one read QB. I watched his helmet on every pass play and I only saw 2 where he moved his head to look somewhere else. One of them, he was just looking off the defender so he could go back to the guy he'd been staring down.

Watch a pro break down Daniels like we watch with Caleb.  Daniels is not a one read QB.  Weather it's inside out or outside in, he's splitting the difference quickly on his reads.  Daniels is special with his poise, accuracy, release, touch, mobility and IQ.  Caleb can be that guy too if he improves his time, accuracy and touch.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

2 hours ago, Mongo3451 said:

Watch a pro break down Daniels like we watch with Caleb.  Daniels is not a one read QB.  Weather it's inside out or outside in, he's splitting the difference quickly on his reads.  Daniels is special with his poise, accuracy, release, touch, mobility and IQ.  Caleb can be that guy too if he improves his time, accuracy and touch.

I think Daniel's biggest downfall is his size and running.  If he was just a one read half field QB, WAS would not still be playing.  I'll give him credit.  I targeted him in the early draft process but was also for Caleb.  I also targeted LSU WR Brian Thomas Jr.,  this was after watching an espn special on the team.  

[BearFan PHX]

All Im saying is I watched his helmet and on every pass play (except 2) it doesnt move. It stays locked on one WR the whole time. I think Kingsbury does an amazing job getting his first read open.

I do think Daniels makes good pre snap reads, has an amazing arm both strong and accurate.

[Stinger226]

35 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

All Im saying is I watched his helmet and on every pass play (except 2) it doesnt move. It stays locked on one WR the whole time. I think Kingsbury does an amazing job getting his first read open.

I do think Daniels makes good pre snap reads, has an amazing arm both strong and accurate.

Actually a person can move his eyes without moving his head. Try it in the mirror.

[AZ54]

23 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Actually a person can move his eyes without moving his head. Try it in the mirror.

Quite often routes are structured so that the read is of one player.  What that CB or safety does determine if you throw to read one or two.  Everyone can be correct on what Daniel’s is doing.  

[BearFan PHX]

19 minutes ago, AZ54 said:

Quite often routes are structured so that the read is of one player.  What that CB or safety does determine if you throw to read one or two.  Everyone can be correct on what Daniel’s is doing.  

yes, this is what Im saying. Daniels doesnt make multiple post snap reads, but he does a good job with presnap reads, and Kingsbury has designed an offense where the first read is almost always open.

I'm saying that a guy like Justin Fields probably would have done well with Kingsbury's offense too. I also think it wouldnt necessarily fit Caleb's strengths, because I think he reads defenses better. In the long run, that will be more successful.

But I think Daniels has a better and more accurate long ball, and fits the offense he is in really well.

This isn't a one guy sucks and the other rules argument, it's more a matter of style.

[BearFan PHX]

42 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

Actually a person can move his eyes without moving his head. Try it in the mirror.

well thanks very much for the sarcasm.

Try looking across a football field while wearing a helmet. Why does every other QB in the league move their head?

[Mongo3451]

1 hour ago, BearFan PHX said:

All Im saying is I watched his helmet and on every pass play (except 2) it doesnt move. It stays locked on one WR the whole time. I think Kingsbury does an amazing job getting his first read open.

I do think Daniels makes good pre snap reads, has an amazing arm both strong and accurate.

Understood.  But, he's not a one read quarterback, according to Tony Romo and Kurt Warner.  Romo commented that he witnessed him make five reads on a successful play.  

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Mongo3451 said:

Understood.  But, he's not a one read quarterback, according to Tony Romo and Kurt Warner.  Romo commented that he witnessed him make five reads on a successful play.  

I am sure that once the play breaks down, he may be looking around etc. (I am guessing, i cant know the play they were talking about of course) but he doesn't regularly read the field the way some quarterbacks do. And they arent asking him to.

I'm not trying to put him down, any more than saying Tom Brady isn't a running QB is a put down.

I'm just saying that he makes good clear presnap reads, and then he locks on to his primary receiver, and if they arent open, he runs. He also has a better long ball than Caleb by a good bit. He is extremely accurate, and gets the ball out fast when that WR is open, and he is a good runner. THere is a lot to like about him, and even more to like about him in their offense. But I think Caleb's ceiling is still higher.

I suppose this is another way of saying Kingsbury is doing a fantastic job in Washington, getting the most out of Daniels. I wonder how Justin Fields would look with Kingsbury too. He seems to understand how to get the most out athletic QBs who arent full field readers as a matter of course. JF has always been a tremendous athlete.

But the next time they play, just watch Daniel's helmet on every pass play; how long he stares at the WR before he throws it to them, whether he looks off safeties, whether he makes multiple reads. And then marvel at how successful that offense is even so. You ask yourself "why are those first WRs always SO open?" You'll see it with your own eyes. I am assuming part of that is really good pre snap reads by Daniels too.

Daniels is an athlete with a great arm, and Kingsbury has boiled it down for him so he doesnt have to think too much. It's very impressive.

[Mongo3451]

5 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

I'm not trying to put him down, any more than saying Tom Brady isn't a running QB is a put down.

But you used the comment "he's a one read quarterback" many times to promote Caleb over him.  You were, very much so, diminishing his perceived ability.  You've also used terms like "locked on to his receiver".  That is criticism of Daniels that is simply not true.  I'm not trying to dog you, I think truth in context is very important in holding each other accountable.  When people show me the error, I thank them.