Bears trade for probowl LG

[Stinger226]

26 minutes ago, BearFan PHX said:

right. this is the best way to use Johnson. If he wins the starting job, great. If a rookie ascends quickly, even better. if the draft falls poorly and you dont get the guard you wanted, you can go BPA. Johnson doesnt have to be a great long term starter for this trade to be a good idea.

So youre right, its what else happens that defines this deal, not just what Johnson does for us long term.

Who's Johnson? You mean Jackson? They traded for a player and pay 11.8 mil a year to be a backup. They will draft a starter type player but he would have to beat him out. He's been brought in to start. Because of Injury risk, Simmons is coming an injury also. Dalman is coming off an Injury. Will Fries is coming off an injury.  Lots of risk no matter which way you go. This is the choice they made.

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

Who's Johnson? You mean Jackson? They traded for a player and pay 11.8 mil a year to be a backup. They will draft a starter type player but he would have to beat him out. He's been brought in to start. Because of Injury risk, Simmons is coming an injury also. Dalman is coming off an Injury. Will Fries is coming off an injury.  Lots of risk no matter which way you go. This is the choice they made.

Yes I mean Jackson, thank you for catching that. He's new to me today, so i need to get more familiar with his name.

What Im saying is that he doesnt have to be a long term starter for this trade to have worked. I agree that they may well draft his eventual replacement, and likely it will take some time for the rookie to be ready to beat him out.

But I've been saying there are two other eventualities that are possible here too that amke this trade even smarter.

One is that we get to the poace where we expected to draft his replacement and the names we wanted are gone, so we are able to draft a BPA type at another position rather than reaching to the next lower tier because we have a hole that needs filling.

And Two is that if we get to that place in the draft, and the rookie we want is there, and he burns up training camp and Jackson becomes a backup. That's also a GREAT outcome.

We are paying a lot in cap space this year for this flexibility and insurance, but we arent signing him on a long term deal (yet). We will have a year with him to find out how he fits, and what we want to do about it.

So we may have overpaid a bit for one year, if he doesnt come in and set the world on fire, but there are still all kinds of positive outcomes from doing this even if that happens. And if he does set the world on fire, then we can sign him to a long term deal and have an answer going forward.

All im saying is its more complicated than just signing a guy and plugging him in as a long term starter. if one of the other scenarios happens, and we end up with a strong OL, but Jackson isnt part of that, it was still a success, even though people will probably say Poles whiffed. But he bought insurance, which is worth something too.

The way to evaluate his moves this offseason is to see whether we end up with a great OL, not how each piece necessarily works out.

To make an analogy, you may hedge a bet with another bet. Both will not pay off, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt have done it, that you end up winning is all that really matters, not that all the bets you make win? Or again, insurance.

I think when we signed Mike Glennon it was the same thing. We didnt know we'd get Trubisky, and then we did. Glennon failed but was a smart bet, not a long term answer as our starter, even though we paid him big. Trubisky, on the other hand, was the real mistake. Had Trubisky worked out, people might have said that we blew it signing Glennon, but we didnt, it gave us insurance, and filled a hole until Trubisky was ready.

But Trubisky wasnt insurance, that was a flat out pay big draft capital for a plus starter and THAT was the big mistake.

Jackson is a Glennon at worst, and a possible plus starter too. So even better.

[Stinger226]

I agree with all of that. Unless Jackson all of a sudden becomes super healthy, he's hear 2 years at the  most but I expect just one. Hope we draft a rookie that is capable of starting but developes late in the year and beats him out.

[dawhizz]

Looks like the Bears now traded for another pro bowl guard - Joe Thuney from the Chiefs comes over for. 2026 4th round pick. He’s a little older (32) and owed $16 million this year. Interested to see if he gets an extension or maybe restructure as part of the deal. 

[Stinger226]

9 minutes ago, dawhizz said:

Looks like the Bears now traded for another pro bowl guard - Joe Thuney from the Chiefs comes over for. 2026 4th round pick. He’s a little older (32) and owed $16 million this year. Interested to see if he gets an extension or maybe restructure as part of the deal. 

I put a separate thread up for this, I didn't notice you posted it.

We are trying to push the next two years for a run at the SB with these signings. 

 

[ASHKUM BEAR]

On 3/4/2025 at 5:37 PM, Mongo3451 said:

I hate this on every level.  Same ol shit...

Thoughts on double dipping on LG with these trades?  It's looking like Johna Jackson might be depth or maybe Center after giving a 2026 4th for Thuney.  Not sure Jackson can play RG, he is not known as great road grader. 

I am happy the Bears are addressing the oline. Sign Dalman for the trifecta and sign a DE to give Sweat some help and draft BPA.  Jentry might be the guy if they can get some more big guys before draft day.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

8 minutes ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

Thoughts on double dipping on LG with these trades?  It's looking like Johna Jackson might be depth or maybe Center after giving a 2026 4th for Thuney.  Not sure Jackson can play RG, he is not known as great road grader. 

I am happy the Bears are addressing the oline. Sign Dalman for the trifecta and sign a DE to give Sweat some help and draft BPA.  Jentry might be the guy if they can get some more big guys before draft day.

Jackson will be the RG and I suspect Dallas will be the center (for big money). The risk is Dalmatian and Jackson have had some injury issues - but both should have plenty of prime years left. Thuney is the elite vet but quickly on outside of his prime - but still a very good player and a true leader. 
 

I suspect they draft an oline with one of their 1st 3 picks and than probably another one with a depth pick (especially if they move back a bit in round one or with one or both of their 2nd rounders to pick up some capital for a te, extra linemen and a rb. 
 

I think Dalman and the young Colts Dlinenmen are the 2 big moves Bears make in free agency. 

[Mongo3451]

1 hour ago, ASHKUM BEAR said:

Thoughts on double dipping on LG with these trades?  It's looking like Johna Jackson might be depth or maybe Center after giving a 2026 4th for Thuney.  Not sure Jackson can play RG, he is not known as great road grader. 

I am happy the Bears are addressing the oline. Sign Dalman for the trifecta and sign a DE to give Sweat some help and draft BPA.  Jentry might be the guy if they can get some more big guys before draft day.

I'm starting to do a 180 on my initial reaction.  With the cap going up, the OL market took a huge crap.  Looking at Jackson, he previously played really well at OG.  With the Rams, he played all three IOL positions and underperformed at center, while being injured.  Thuney is a stud.  Even though he is 32, he's very durable.  I can see him being above average for at least three years.  Both guards are better than what we had.  It's time to nail the center position.  With IOL being a strength in this draft, I would love to see two future starters come out of it.

[Stinger226]

If you look at quality OL, a lot of them are older and playing well. Zeitler, Trent Williams, Brandon Scherff and Ryan Kelly.  

I think we could have a solid Line for 3 yr stretch and add prospects to take over when ready. 

[ASHKUM BEAR]

38 minutes ago, Mongo3451 said:

I'm starting to do a 180 on my initial reaction.  With the cap going up, the OL market took a huge crap.  Looking at Jackson, he previously played really well at OG.  With the Rams, he played all three IOL positions and underperformed at center, while being injured.  Thuney is a stud.  Even though he is 32, he's very durable.  I can see him being above average for at least three years.  Both guards are better than what we had.  It's time to nail the center position.  With IOL being a strength in this draft, I would love to see two future starters come out of it.

I am liking it and it makes the draft a wildcard.   Campbell or Graham if they fall, Jentry if we feel he's the icing on the cake, Starks at safety,  or trade down and help fill depth with good potential for the future. 

[Stinger226]

I hope they get a couple of trade backs lots of players between 20 and 50. I wonder if Carter falls because of his stress factor in his foot.

[BearFan PHX]

Dont sleep on Kelvin Banks Jr either. He's a hell of a player, and maybe our LT of the future? If we go that way in the draft.

[Stinger226]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

Dont sleep on Kelvin Banks Jr either. He's a hell of a player, and maybe our LT of the future? If we go that way in the draft.

He's rated the middle of the first round and is still projected as a LT plus potentially guard. Has production at a major school.

[BearFan PHX]

13 minutes ago, Stinger226 said:

He's rated the middle of the first round and is still projected as a LT plus potentially guard. Has production at a major school.

people rate players differently. I think he might be the 2nd best tackle in the draft. I need to watch more film.

[Stinger226]

2 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

people rate players differently. I think he might be the 2nd best tackle in the draft. I need to watch more film.

Could be, I still think Campbell ends up at OG , if you look at LTs  in the league, there are only a few that are short armed . That leaves Banks, Membou and Simmons' as the OT prospects.

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, Stinger226 said:

Could be, I still think Campbell ends up at OG , if you look at LTs  in the league, there are only a few that are short armed . That leaves Banks, Membou and Simmons' as the OT prospects.

it depends how people play, not just their measurables. Campbell handled top competition in college. Its just too easy to say "shorter arms = OG" - nothing is that direct. For Skoronski, he was a catcher, not a striker. Campbell has different traits.

When you make everything about measurables, you end up drafting numbers and not players. We've seen that movie many times before.

Also, these are all NARRATIVES. They are shorthand for putting everything in a little box. It's not reality.

Barry Sanders is too short to be a running back in the NFL.

Doug Flutie is too short to play QB.

Tom Brady doesnt have the physique or arm to be an NFL QB.

Hall of Fame OT Joe Thomas has short arms too.

etc etc

Sportswriters love these measured facts. They can look them up and then tell themselves that it tells the story. But smart scouts and GMs watch FILM, and look at how players play. It's ALL that matters.

Have you seen film of Campbell failing to protect his QB because his arms were too short? Or did you just read that from some writer who also didnt watch the film, and just regurgitates the same old generalities based on numbers?

If you watch Campbell and you see it differently, then so be it - I respect that. We may disagree, but at least you have an opinion. But if you read some pundit and then make these rules based dictates of who we can afford, who can and cant play - its just all too rigid and based on nothing but narratives. In that case you dont have an opinion, you just have a narrative. Because you didnt formulate it, you just regurgitated it.

It's cool to disagree, but you gotta actually have an opinion. This isnt even about how he plays, its just about a few inches on his arms. Its ALL based on that one factoid.

[Stinger226]

It's just an opinion. There's exceptions to every statement. It's easily explained once he gets drafted. As one pundit put it, he can be a good LT or a great guard.  I've only watched 2 games so you may have watched more tape than me. He's the best OL player in this draft suggested by almost everyone. 

[AZ54]

17 hours ago, BearFan PHX said:

it depends how people play, not just their measurables. Campbell handled top competition in college. Its just too easy to say "shorter arms = OG" - nothing is that direct. For Skoronski, he was a catcher, not a striker. Campbell has different traits.

When you make everything about measurables, you end up drafting numbers and not players. We've seen that movie many times before.

Also, these are all NARRATIVES. They are shorthand for putting everything in a little box. It's not reality.

Barry Sanders is too short to be a running back in the NFL.

Doug Flutie is too short to play QB.

Tom Brady doesnt have the physique or arm to be an NFL QB.

Hall of Fame OT Joe Thomas has short arms too.

etc etc

Sportswriters love these measured facts. They can look them up and then tell themselves that it tells the story. But smart scouts and GMs watch FILM, and look at how players play. It's ALL that matters.

Have you seen film of Campbell failing to protect his QB because his arms were too short? Or did you just read that from some writer who also didnt watch the film, and just regurgitates the same old generalities based on numbers?

If you watch Campbell and you see it differently, then so be it - I respect that. We may disagree, but at least you have an opinion. But if you read some pundit and then make these rules based dictates of who we can afford, who can and cant play - its just all too rigid and based on nothing but narratives. In that case you dont have an opinion, you just have a narrative. Because you didnt formulate it, you just regurgitated it.

It's cool to disagree, but you gotta actually have an opinion. This isnt even about how he plays, its just about a few inches on his arms. Its ALL based on that one factoid.

These are not just narratives. (definitely agree on lazy sports jouros peddling narratives without substantiating the data)     Although I don't have a link for it, it does appear to be fact that less than 7% of starting OTs in the NFL have arms shorter than 33".   There is a legitimate reason why longer arms make a player more likely to be successful covering a lot of open ground against some very fast and agile athletes, many who also have long arms to help them gain leverage.  

Here are some clips where you will see him struggle with speed and length.  I'm not saying he's a bad player because he's not.  If you watch the full film you will see many plays where he handles bigger power rushers very well including some DTs.  That's why I like him at OG.   I accept it's not ideal film but this is all I get to make some judgment regarding how he'll handle NFL speed, power, and length.    What I've seen concerns me considering he'll be a top 10 pick.  I have watched highlights of the top 10 edge rushers in this draft and noticed quite a few get around Campbell, some more than once (isn't that ideal for their highlight?) but I'm not going through that many videos again.   I figured LSU QB highlights were the easiest way to show a sample of how he holds up.   Without knowing what was going to be in these here is what I found...  

First video:   23s,  2:12s against Alabama, 2:28s against Alabama, 4:17s against Texas A&M, 

Second video:  1:13 against S.C.,    1:22 against S.C,  2:48s against Miss, 3:38s Arkansas long arm move walks him right back into QB before he gains his footing,  3:52s against Texas A&M up and under move goes right by him, 3:50s against Texas A&M another up/under move DE goes right into heart of the pocket, 4:28s against Alabama DE goes right around flushes QB,  4:50s Florida DE long arms him gets pressure, 

 

 

[BearFan PHX]

1 hour ago, AZ54 said:

These are not just narratives. (definitely agree on lazy sports jouros peddling narratives without substantiating the data)     Although I don't have a link for it, it does appear to be fact that less than 7% of starting OTs in the NFL have arms shorter than 33".   There is a legitimate reason why longer arms make a player more likely to be successful covering a lot of open ground against some very fast and agile athletes, many who also have long arms to help them gain leverage.  

Here are some clips where you will see him struggle with speed and length.  I'm not saying he's a bad player because he's not.  If you watch the full film you will see many plays where he handles bigger power rushers very well including some DTs.  That's why I like him at OG.   I accept it's not ideal film but this is all I get to make some judgment regarding how he'll handle NFL speed, power, and length.    What I've seen concerns me considering he'll be a top 10 pick.  I have watched highlights of the top 10 edge rushers in this draft and noticed quite a few get around Campbell, some more than once (isn't that ideal for their highlight?) but I'm not going through that many videos again.   I figured LSU QB highlights were the easiest way to show a sample of how he holds up.   Without knowing what was going to be in these here is what I found...  

First video:   23s,  2:12s against Alabama, 2:28s against Alabama, 4:17s against Texas A&M, 

Second video:  1:13 against S.C.,    1:22 against S.C,  2:48s against Miss, 3:38s Arkansas long arm move walks him right back into QB before he gains his footing,  3:52s against Texas A&M up and under move goes right by him, 3:50s against Texas A&M another up/under move DE goes right into heart of the pocket, 4:28s against Alabama DE goes right around flushes QB,  4:50s Florida DE long arms him gets pressure, 

 

 

A couple things.

First off I totally agree that longer arms is better. Im not saying its nothing, Im just saying its only part of a player evaluation. Some players succeed with less than desirable traits, but the traits are desirable because generally speaking they do make a difference.

Secondly, I REALLY respect you offering film to back up your claim. To me that's everything. I'll go watch it now...

[BearFan PHX]

OK I'll respond as I see them. i dont know what my opinion is going to be yet, because Im looking at each play and then responding. Feel free to come back at me and disagree too. Since we are looking at specific clips, Im totally open to hearing how you see it differently (if you do)

In the first video:

23s I dont see #66 on the field? The guy that got blown up looks too skinny to be Campbell? And anyway he was defeated by a bull rush, not around the corner, so i dunno if arm length applied to that one?

2:12 Good one. DE got the corner, definitely an example of longer arms would have been helpful. If i understand correctly the longer arms help recover when you lose position, like in this one. Better footwork would mitigate it, but youre not always gonna be right, and in this case I see what you mean.

2:28 Ok this one Campbell loses the rep because he got beaten hand fighting, to the inside. It looks REALLY ugly. This should never happen. I dont think it's an arm length issue like 2:12 was though, but it's definitely a bad rep.

4:17 Beat hand fighting again. In this one, I'd give you half a point because longer arms might have helped recover from the original mistake, but he could have had better footwork and then the arms wouldnt necessarily be a problem on this rep.

so 2:12 is fully an example, and 4:17 is half an example of arm length issues. Also hate to see him losing the hand fighting in some of these clips.

second video:

1:13 Crap! Beaten inside again! arms might have helped recover, but mostly he just got too wide?

1:22 beaten handfighting again - I dont see this one as an arm length issue, he was withint reach of the player the whole time, just couldnt get his hands on him in a productive way.

2:48 he did OK. I can kind of see what you might mean in that he could have redirected him a little better if he had a little longer reach there, but he did OK?

3:38 I see this one a little differently than you describe it. i think Campbell was too high and took too many steps until he could get his strength engaged. His hands were on him, elbows bent, so i dont think this one was an arm length one, but for sure too high. Not a great rep.

3:52 Getting beaten with hand fighting again. I can give you half a point for arm length here because once the player disengaged, if Campbell had longer arms, he might have had better leverage to recover, but all in all, he did keep the guy off the QB. ALL this handfighting is concerning.

Was this from this last year, or was some of it from when he was younger?

I think you had 3:52 then 3:50, probably a typo, but im missing a rep here so I cant comment?

4:28 looks like he rode the defender out around the circle, so Id call that a good rep? He did get beat right at the snap, so thats not good, but he recovered and rode the guy out, so his arms were long enough on this one?

4:50 too high, gets backup up into the pocket. Not great, but not an issue of short arms? His elbows are bent during the rep.

So mostly i see handfighting issues, playing too high, and a few times where longer arms would have helped him recover. I cant tell you again how much i appreciate and respect you pointing to specific reps on film. I know it takes some work on your part, so thank you for that. And it gives us something specific to talk about.

[AZ54]

First video was Jaden Daniels 2023.  Second was 2024 QB highlights.  I agree not all of the misses were entirely arm length issues but if he had the longer arms it would help him redirect the rusher. It would also help him to engage with a first strike a bit quicker to upset the pass rushers plan of attack.  

[BearFan PHX]

There is no doubt that having elite measurables is a benefit, in other words the same OT would be better with longer arms. My only point was that you cant just look at arm measurement and determine that a guy cant play OT, because there are other factors too.

The film you showed was definitely troubling. I dont think all of it was due to arm length, but some of it was, and it did show poor hand fighting for example too, and playing too high, and those are also problems.

Im also not saying we should or shouldnt take Campbell. I need to see film on some other OTs first. Without knowing a lot, Banks intrigues me.

But the answer is always there on the film, and this film didnt look so great for sure. Seeing it on film means more to me than hearing measurables is all Im saying.

[Stinger226]

Of course that's not all you go by but in NFL circles they list it important or otherwise it wouldn't be so lopsided towards longer arms.

[adam]

I know most people hate PFF, but it is another data point. Surprisingly, Pryor had a better grades than Jackson last season, even when he was in DET. Pryor graded out at 69.9 and 78.1 in Pass Pro. Jackson's overall season grades have been 67.6 with the Rams, and 61.0, 66.1, 69.3, and 57.0 with the Lions. Looking at his grades, he seems more of a road grader and is better at run blocking than pass blocking. 

So it will be interesting to see what they do with him. A 6th is nothing, but his cap hit is. Is he playing Center like he did for the Rams or back to Guard?

[Stinger226]

1 hour ago, adam said:

I know most people hate PFF, but it is another data point. Surprisingly, Pryor had a better grades than Jackson last season, even when he was in DET. Pryor graded out at 69.9 and 78.1 in Pass Pro. Jackson's overall season grades have been 67.6 with the Rams, and 61.0, 66.1, 69.3, and 57.0 with the Lions. Looking at his grades, he seems more of a road grader and is better at run blocking than pass blocking. 

So it will be interesting to see what they do with him. A 6th is nothing, but his cap hit is. Is he playing Center like he did for the Rams or back to Guard?

I haven't looked at all his information but he was an all pro in Detroit one year. In 45 games he has given up 10.5 sacks and 11 penalties in his 4 years. Those are not chump  change numbers .