QBs left on the board...

[jason]

On Moss - I believe 20 other teams passed on Moss. Look, he blew off an interview with the Bears. He was obviously a problem child because his skill was definately top 5 but he fell into the 20s. You can't blame the Bears for passing on him given that 1. RB was clearly a greater need and 2. Moss was judged as a huge character risk. Just wish the would have taken Taylor instead of Enis.

 

On Milke Williams, you can believe all you want that given different circumstances he would have panned out. The one fact that we know is he is a certified bust.

 

Peace

 

Agreed. Moss had character issues. However, the point of this is whether or not someone could do as good as the GMs. I loved Moss at the time, thought he looked unstoppable, and didn't care that he played against inferior talent. I would have drafted him. Furthermore, I have gone on record NUMEROUS times stating that I would draft troublesome players, trade for troublesome players, and play troublesome players. I don't blame the Bears for passing on him. I completely understand it. But the point is, I would have drafted him. As for RB need and Enis, I disagree. At the time I thought Raymont 'Ultraback' Harris and Rashaan Salaam, while not great, were better off than other positions at that time. Also, I hated the Enis pick. I've gone on record numerous times stating my love for the homerun hitter type RB, and Fred Taylor was definitely higher than Enis on my list.

 

Mike Williams...meh...since he never played for the Bears, nothing can be proven. The facts go against me since he is a bust, but I think the Bears were just prime for a WR that year, and waiting for someone to come in and be the go-to-guy.

[nfoligno]

I hope you realize what a crap argument that is. It is as old of an argument as you find, and still a joke.

 

One. By that logic, I assume you NEVER question our coaching staff. You never feel Turner made a bad playcall, or that you would have called a better play. Hey, better yet, you never felt you could make some better playcalls than Jauron, Wanny, Shoop or even Shea. Hey, they are all professional coaches. Are you?

 

Two. This is the draft. Hey, newsflash. Whether for the GM of a professional sports team or a fan sitting at home, the draft is a crap shoot. Despite all of Angelo's vast resources, he can still make mistakes. Imagine that.

 

Do I think I could be the GM of a team. No. Wait. Let me think about that for a bit:) But I will say that w/ the internet, we arm chair guys are at least more informed these days. We can get scouting reports on players not much different from what NFL teams get.

 

Sorry, but I just hate the argument that we are not the GM or the coach or whatever, so it must be asanine to question them. Whenever you are ready to join the arm chair QB club, let me know. You can have your very own remote.

[jason]

Jason-I love your passion to Talkbears and well thought out discussions. I don't always agree with you, but your thoughts are always interesting. The one I love the most about you is after every draft, you argue how you would have done better. Heck, somethimes I think I could do better myself. One thing you or me or anyone for that matter don't know is the top managements plans and goals (ie. Harris contract, Bensons health, Bazuin's inability to learn the defense)

 

I'm 80% happy with all the picks, I would have liked to see a couple of things different, but I can't complain.

 

Williams-(A) I too liked Albert, he was intriquing especially how fast he climbed in a month and at least his floor was LG, but Williams is a smart, well rounded LT and a position that will set a team for 8 years if he pans out.

Forte- (A) He was our guy all along, I'd prefer to trade down 5-8 spots, maybe we tried but we got our guy

Bennett- (A) I was really high on him. Does everything you'd want out of a WR. May be our best WR in a long time

Harrison (B ) I really wanted best OG, but we do have Beekman/St. Clair and with Harris mentioning a hold out, and ?'s on the rest of our DT's, Harrison may fill a huge need. Look at the dropoff last year after injuries.

Steltz (B ) The more I read/watch about him, my grade might change to an (A). Everyones first impression is an in the box safety (Arch) who is slow. The coaches have him graded to play both S's and there are plenty of highlights with him playing nice coverage.

Bowman © This is a gamble pick, he pans out 2-3 years this will change to an (A) if not an (F). CB was also a need last year as Tillman/Vasher both missed a lot of time and our D dropped big time. Bowman has been compared to Cromartie of SD b/c of the potential but injury history, if he turns out to Cromartie no one here will complain about the pick.

Davis © I love him as a TE, big & fast like Olsen. TE was a need, but we should have taken either Brennan or Woodson. This is my only major regret was missing these QB's, but I don't dislike Davis.

Baldwin (D) who the hell is this guy, Lovie's nephew? If we were drafting BPA my guy Josh Barrett should have been taken (fire Angelo)

C. Adams © Don't know much about him so he gets a C probably as good as Metcalf

J. LaRocque © Once again, don't know much about him and really don't care.

K. Barton (A) I would have drafted him earlier, that's how much love I have for him. Would have went higher (injury)

M. Monk (A) Big fast WR that uses body well (CAN YOU SAY OUR MARQUES COLSTON)

 

I would of like to see Schuening/Radovich, Brennan/Woodson, Barrett SS, but if those are the only misses (G and QB) I think well be ok, a rookie G especially RD3 or later will most likely need a year to beef up like Beekman and the QB would be a project (Krenzel,Leak). I think were better off finding someone like Volek than a rookie right now.

 

I appreciate the kind words and thoughts. I think that after every draft I can remember, I have been disappointed in a few picks. However, I don't think I've felt I could have done better each year. There have been a few years when the Bears hit solid gold (Urlacher & Brown year), and it's hard to argue with a few of the diamonds in the rough that have been found, but there is a reason the Bears have been in the cellar for the majority of the past twenty years.

 

The word fan comes from fanatic, and I'm definitely that. I follow this stuff an unhealthy amount, have coached, currently ref, and spend countless hours reading reports, looking at box scores, scouring the internet for videos, and watching highlight shows. And I have a full job, and a girlfriend, and a family, and travel, and other responsibilities. And I still feel that with all that in my way, I would have done just as good of a job over the past twenty years as the guys running the Bears. I may not know more about football than the GMs and scouts, but I am pretty safe assuming that I know more about football than the majority of fans. And as such, I am fairly confident I could have done just as well as the Bears organization. Honestly, how could one not!? The more I think about it, the more ridiculous it is that anyone would argue otherwise. If the Bears had had consistent success, or even a whole bunch of winning seasons, then I might think otherwise. But I've seen too many drafts of safe players, backups, reaches, and just plain old garbage picks in positions of non-need.

 

As for your breakdown, I can see how one could think that way. I happen to disagree is all. I think that OG was a major need, and was ignored. I think that Forte is the completely wrong pick, and I have shown via videos that Benson looked pretty good when the OL actually did anything. Fixing the OL with multiple picks made more sense, saved the Bears money, and had the greater possibility of making the coaches/FO look better in the long run. Now, they're essentially putting an end to Benson, and more than likely Wolfe.

[nfoligno]

Nicely put. I will say that 20 years ago, I could not have drafted for jack. But today, thank you internet, the info available out there is incredible. Go take a look on NFL.com. Take a look at how detailed the scouting reports are. If you pay a bit, you can have access to so many more sites, many of which are run by former NFL scouts. Video is available on just about every player.

 

Hell, let me point this out. Teams still use scouts, but every team also uses scouting servies. There are a couple scouting services that scout players, and offer their "book" for a price. You can I can get that as well.

 

Let me finish this thought by referring to Joel Buchsbaum. He was w/ Pro Football Weekly. The guy was awesome. There was no opinion I valued more than his on prospects. He was basically just a football geek that lived in his room and reviewed players. Oh yea, and numerous teams tried to hire him, but he liked his secluded life, and stay on-line.

 

Point is, you do not have to be a NFL GM to pick in the draft anymore. Wanna bet I could have done better than Wanny?

 

I will admit there are player who have been "hits" I would not have taken, or players that have been busts that I would. At the same time, I look back over the years, and my hits seem to outweigh my misses.

 

Regarding this draft, I like Forte. I would not have taken him as I would have taken Brohm in the 2nd. (Albert in the 1st). If Forte made it to the 3rd, than I may have taken him. May. But I can guarantee you I would have been taking a lot more OL after that.

[jason]

Good points nfo. Allow me to add to them by making a related comment.

 

How many on this board respect and admire what LT2 does with the salary cap? How many times has he been right when the guys on TV and the major sports sites (ESPN) have been wrong? More than a few times.

 

Is LT2 a professional cap manager? Not that we know of. So, what he does is pretty amazing! How does he know all of what he knows without being involved with an NFL team? Simple, he puts in time, effort, love, and fanaticism into what he enjoys. If I were a GM, I would contact LT2 and hire him to be a cap manager, and that's it. Manage the cap, know everything about it, and ensure that the organization is financially sound. And you know what? He'd probably do just as well in his first year as many who have done it professionally for several years.

[nfoligno]

Good call on LT2.

 

Let me bounce something off you. Maybe unrelated to this thread, but something I have been thinking about.

 

IMHO, Angelo (as a former defensive scout) simply has an eye for defensive diamonds in the rough. He can find those hidden gems better than he can find offensive gems set on the surface, right in front of him. Isn't Gabrial also a former defensive background scout?

 

Anyway, here is the question. If the above is true, is it better for Angelo do what he did, draft a bunch of defensive fliers as the odds of HIM "hitting" on a defensive player are greater, or for him to draft offense regardless, even if he is not good at it, and the odds are lower he will hit.

 

Sucks to have to ask that question, but until this draft (which the results are far from known) Angelo has seemed like a pretty good evaluator of defensive talent, w/ the ability to find gems after the top rounds, while being flat out poor on the offensive side of the ball.

 

Question part two. Is the problem Angelo finding offensive talent or our coaching staff's inability to develop that talent.

 

Sorry for the sidebar, but something I wanted to ask.

[Connorbear]

I hope you realize what a crap argument that is. It is as old of an argument as you find, and still a joke.

 

One. By that logic, I assume you NEVER question our coaching staff. You never feel Turner made a bad playcall, or that you would have called a better play. Hey, better yet, you never felt you could make some better playcalls than Jauron, Wanny, Shoop or even Shea. Hey, they are all professional coaches. Are you?

 

Two. This is the draft. Hey, newsflash. Whether for the GM of a professional sports team or a fan sitting at home, the draft is a crap shoot. Despite all of Angelo's vast resources, he can still make mistakes. Imagine that.

 

Do I think I could be the GM of a team. No. Wait. Let me think about that for a bit:) But I will say that w/ the internet, we arm chair guys are at least more informed these days. We can get scouting reports on players not much different from what NFL teams get.

 

Sorry, but I just hate the argument that we are not the GM or the coach or whatever, so it must be asanine to question them. Whenever you are ready to join the arm chair QB club, let me know. You can have your very own remote.

Who are you directly this to? If it's me then I will address after 5 pm tonight (have to head to work).

 

Peace

[Connorbear]

I hope you realize what a crap argument that is. It is as old of an argument as you find, and still a joke.

 

One. By that logic, I assume you NEVER question our coaching staff. You never feel Turner made a bad playcall, or that you would have called a better play. Hey, better yet, you never felt you could make some better playcalls than Jauron, Wanny, Shoop or even Shea. Hey, they are all professional coaches. Are you?

 

Two. This is the draft. Hey, newsflash. Whether for the GM of a professional sports team or a fan sitting at home, the draft is a crap shoot. Despite all of Angelo's vast resources, he can still make mistakes. Imagine that.

 

Do I think I could be the GM of a team. No. Wait. Let me think about that for a bit:) But I will say that w/ the internet, we arm chair guys are at least more informed these days. We can get scouting reports on players not much different from what NFL teams get.

 

Sorry, but I just hate the argument that we are not the GM or the coach or whatever, so it must be asanine to question them. Whenever you are ready to join the arm chair QB club, let me know. You can have your very own remote.

Who are you directly this to? If it's me then I will address after 5 pm tonight (have to head to work).

 

Peace

[madlithuanian]

TO answer part 2...I think a combo of both. His picks are indeed questionable. (Olsen was the exception that makes the rule...) And there is no evidence that our offensive coaches are truly great at their job.

 

Good call on LT2.

 

Let me bounce something off you. Maybe unrelated to this thread, but something I have been thinking about.

 

IMHO, Angelo (as a former defensive scout) simply has an eye for defensive diamonds in the rough. He can find those hidden gems better than he can find offensive gems set on the surface, right in front of him. Isn't Gabrial also a former defensive background scout?

 

Anyway, here is the question. If the above is true, is it better for Angelo do what he did, draft a bunch of defensive fliers as the odds of HIM "hitting" on a defensive player are greater, or for him to draft offense regardless, even if he is not good at it, and the odds are lower he will hit.

 

Sucks to have to ask that question, but until this draft (which the results are far from known) Angelo has seemed like a pretty good evaluator of defensive talent, w/ the ability to find gems after the top rounds, while being flat out poor on the offensive side of the ball.

 

Question part two. Is the problem Angelo finding offensive talent or our coaching staff's inability to develop that talent.

 

Sorry for the sidebar, but something I wanted to ask.

[nfoligno]

Who are you directly this to? If it's me then I will address after 5 pm tonight (have to head to work).

 

Peace

 

Response to azbearsfan who said, "I always love the armchair guys that say they can do it better. I always wonder why they dont get a job coaching or being an assistant gm somewhere."

 

The argument just irritates me. Essentially saying that if you are not a NFL GM, you have no business second guessing one. Same thing when I, or any fan, questions the coach. Hey, if you are so smart, why are no not a NFL coach.

 

It is an argument I have always hated and consider a cop out.

[adam]

Just to prove I'm not just pulling players out of the blue, I'll start with 1998.

 

1998

I hated the Curtis Enis pick

I loved Randy Moss.

 

1999

I was absolutely pissed about the trade down for Cade McNown. I was raving about Dante Culpepper for months.

 

2000

I can't recall who I liked a lot this year.

 

2001

I actually liked the David Terrell pick. Although, to be fair, if the Bears had selected Randy Moss, there would not have been a need for Terrell that year. Of course, if I remember correctly, I liked Chad Johnson a bit more (could be wrong).

 

2002

This is the draft the year after the Bears did well, but sucked on offense. They only looked decent because the D was so good. I wanted a WR or OL (WR because Dez White sucked). I thought Colombo was a nice selection, and he has turned into a good pro. IT's just too bad his injury caused him to go elsewhere before getting better. I also liked Reche Caldwell, but in my defense the WR class was weak that year and I don't know what I would have done. I would have easily swayed to Randel El or Ashley Leilie, since the old message board had many backers of those two at the time.

 

2003

I didn't like Mike Green, Phillip Daniels, or Bryan Robinson going into the draft. I hated RW McQuarters. I liked Woolfolk, Polamalu, Nnamdi Asomugha...in that order IIRC. I didn't know enough about Polamalu to move him ahead of Woolfolk. I thougth the Rex Grossman pick was decent (still think the kid has a chance).

 

2004

Still disliked the defensive players from above, and also thought we needed OL help. Loved the Tommie Harris pick, one of my favorite guys that year. I also liked Igor Olshansky. None of the DBs that year really stand out in my mind as having moved me.

 

2005

Despised the Cedric Benson pick. Although, the guy I wanted, Mike Williams, hasn't amounted to anything in the NFL either. I still believe that if Mike Williams had gone to a team that actually used him, and didn't shelve him behind two other first round WRs, he had a chance to be a very solid WR. After the time in Detroit, he was damaged goods psychologically. (someone on the old board nailed this one in pre-draft comments, saying he was a headcase) I also remember liking Jonathan Babineaux and Alex Barron.

 

2006

Right after a good year. Didn't like WRs. Thought the Bears also needed RT/RG/TE. I thought the Bears reached on Manning, and should have grabbed one of the following: Marcus McNeil, Sinorice Moss, Chad Jackson. I can't recall what happened with the first rounder this year...but I seem to remember a trade down. I wanted Chad Jackson and a TE (Leonard Pope).

 

2007

Odd that it's this recent and I can't remember that well. I thought the Bears needed to upgrade offense after the Super Bowl season. WR and TE specifically, IIRC. I liked the Olsen pick, but I think I liked Dwayne Jarrett better.

 

So, there's a brief trip down memory lane. I can't say for certain that each and every thing I have said is completely accurate, since I dont' have notes or anything, but it's pretty close to what I remember.

 

I know this for a fact:

-The Bears would have had the Culpepper/Moss combo that the Vikings had. I absolutely loved those two guys.

 

The other thing I know:

-It's hard doing something like this because my drafts would have been different in each year based upon how well my previous drafts did. And I suspect that there wouldn't have been this ten year need for a WR if Moss was drafted.

Holy cow, that looks like Millen's draft pattern. Almost all WRs. Randy Moss, Chad Johnson, Reche Caldwell, Randel El, Ashley Lelie, Mike Williams, Sinorice Moss, Chad Jackson, and Dwayne Jarrett.

[jason]

Good call on LT2.

 

Let me bounce something off you. Maybe unrelated to this thread, but something I have been thinking about.

 

IMHO, Angelo (as a former defensive scout) simply has an eye for defensive diamonds in the rough. He can find those hidden gems better than he can find offensive gems set on the surface, right in front of him. Isn't Gabrial also a former defensive background scout?

 

Anyway, here is the question. If the above is true, is it better for Angelo do what he did, draft a bunch of defensive fliers as the odds of HIM "hitting" on a defensive player are greater, or for him to draft offense regardless, even if he is not good at it, and the odds are lower he will hit.

 

Sucks to have to ask that question, but until this draft (which the results are far from known) Angelo has seemed like a pretty good evaluator of defensive talent, w/ the ability to find gems after the top rounds, while being flat out poor on the offensive side of the ball.

 

Question part two. Is the problem Angelo finding offensive talent or our coaching staff's inability to develop that talent.

 

Sorry for the sidebar, but something I wanted to ask.

 

I don't know much about Gabrial; so, I really don't know his background. However, as far as Angelo goes, I think it has something to do with his inability to evaluate offensive talent, but also the coaches he has had to work with. Each coach wanted "their guy" that fit into "their system". As a result, IMO, the average picks were made. What I mean by that is the collective wanted a guy who looked like he would have solid numbers, solid production, and be a spoke in the wheel. What they don't do, however, is look for the guy who might explode onto the NFL. It's the old-school "3 yards and a cloud of dust" mentality. I fear that it may be too ingrained in the city of Chicago, the team, and the fans to get away from it. Hell, the only guy with an imagination who has been involved with the Bears on offense in the last 20 years has been Crowton, and he got run out of town. He may not have had the best ideas, the best tools, or the best gameplans...but he tried to be explosive.

 

So, the long answer is, both. I think part of it's on the owners, part on JA, part on the city's mindset, and part on the coaches. Although, I tend to put more of the blame on the coaches than anyone else. Our offensive coaches have been horrible for quite some time.

[nfoligno]

I'll throw in another level. I have absolutely no facts to support this belief, and have no idea how I would even go about tracking it down, if I even felt inclined to do so. But I wonder this. We have a GM who was a former defensive scout, and IMHO shows a strong bias for the defensive side of the ball. That same GM is in charge of hiring our scouting department. I wonder if our scouts are not defense heavy. I believe we have regional scouts. One guy in charge of Texas/Oklahoma/Louisiana, or whatever. That or we have a scout in charge of a division, but I believe it is regional. Anyway, if Angelo is in charge of hiring scouts, is it not possible he is filling our regional scouting positions w/ scouts who too may be geared for toward the defensive side of the ball?

 

So here is how I see it. We have scouts better evaluating/finding defensive talent than offensive. Then it goes up the chain, so that in the war room, Angelo has scouting reports that may lean heavy toward defense. That does not mean offense is ignored, and the upper talent may be scouted better, but I think it would also explain how we are more often finding defensive gems later in drafts than offensive.

 

I think our coaching staff is weak in terms of development, and that is part of the issue too. Frankly, there are times I wonder if they are even that good on the defensive side of the ball. Sometimes I wonder if the players that develop are not simply players who were so good, they just didn't need the higher level of coaching to help their development, while players like Daniel Manning, as an example, who needs coaching to develop fail.

 

I understand your argument about city mentality, but am not sure I buy into it as much. The city was fine w/ a vertical offense in the 90s, under Turner in fact. As for Crowton, I do not think his being aggressive upset fans so much as (a) total lack of any effort to run the ball and ( poor results. If the razzle dazzle was effective, w/ or w/o a run game, I think fans would have accepted it. But under Crowton, we watched Cade McNown getting killed, and simply wondered if a committment to the run would have helped more than empty backfield sets w/ Cade McNown under center.

[Connorbear]

Response to azbearsfan who said, "I always love the armchair guys that say they can do it better. I always wonder why they dont get a job coaching or being an assistant gm somewhere."

 

The argument just irritates me. Essentially saying that if you are not a NFL GM, you have no business second guessing one. Same thing when I, or any fan, questions the coach. Hey, if you are so smart, why are no not a NFL coach.

 

It is an argument I have always hated and consider a cop out.

Just wanted to clarify - thanks.

 

Peace

[jason]

Holy cow, that looks like Millen's draft pattern. Almost all WRs. Randy Moss, Chad Johnson, Reche Caldwell, Randel El, Ashley Lelie, Mike Williams, Sinorice Moss, Chad Jackson, and Dwayne Jarrett.

 

LOL. I didn't even realize that. Too funny.

 

However, that just shows how long the Bears have needed offensive firepower at the WR position. Each and every year the Bears need it, but never seem to get it. Therefore, one of the needs each year is WR. I suppose that's why I have vivid memories of wanting to draft various WRs.

 

If they had drafted Randy Moss, however, I'm sure the memories would have been different.