The draft that could have been

[nfoligno]

By his logic, I suppose it would have been okay to move up from our 2nd round pick, into the 1st, and then draft Brohm. Because then the odds go up, right?

 

If you do not gamble, how can you win. Is a QB in the 2nd a gamble. Sure. And the odds go down after that. That does NOT mean you just quit the table.

[jason]

By his logic, I suppose it would have been okay to move up from our 2nd round pick, into the 1st, and then draft Brohm. Because then the odds go up, right?

 

If you do not gamble, how can you win. Is a QB in the 2nd a gamble. Sure. And the odds go down after that. That does NOT mean you just quit the table.

 

Pocket Kings? Hmmm....I don't know....they're not pocket Aces....better fold pre-flop and walk away from the table just to be sure. <_>

[Mongo3451]

Nice on the joint joke.

I thought it was rather "blunt" myself.

 

Brohm has some injury concerns. That is a big reason he was not a 1st round pick. But in the 2nd round? We used every round after this (nearly) to take a flier on a risk player. Why not in the 2nd.

I think they are saying it is more valuable to (one:) provide insurance if Benson's rehab is not good, (two:) provide REAL competition for Benson in camp. IE: AP and Wolfe have no ability to do that. I'd rather have Forte than Brohm or Henne. And I really wanted them to make a play for Henne by trading up for an extra 2nd rounder.

[nfoligno]

Nice on the blunt.

 

I think they are saying it is more valuable to (one:) provide insurance if Benson's rehab is not good, (two:) provide REAL competition for Benson in camp. IE: AP and Wolfe have no ability to do that. I'd rather have Forte than Brohm or Henne. And I really wanted them to make a play for Henne by trading up for an extra 2nd rounder.

 

So let me understand. We need insurance behind Benson, but not Rex or Orton?

 

Competition for our RB is more important than finding a franchise QB?

 

I like Forte, but I am sorry. RBs may not be a dime a dozen, but they are not that far from it. Build the OL, and watch even AP look like a stud.

 

And we could have had both anyway. I just flat out would not have cost that much to move up from the 3rd round if Forte was considered that great.

[nfoligno]

He needs to develop his blocking, but from all accounts, he has the potential to be a solid blocker.

 

He may have the potential to be a blocker, but it doesn't sound like he is anything like Gilmore. He is a raw TE prospect w/ athleticism, but has yet to learn how to really translate that athleticism to the field. He is considered a pass catching TE. He does not at all sound like Gilmore to me.

[Mongo3451]

So let me understand. We need insurance behind Benson, but not Rex or Orton?

Absolutely. Rex and Kyle are young and injury free at this point. Benson is rehabbing from a career threatening injury. We don't know if he's lost his ability or not. Plus, added motivation will bring out whether Benson wants to be a football player or not. This should remove any sense of entitlement he feels he has. If he's a pissy bitch about it - done.

 

Competition for our RB is more important than finding a franchise QB?

That question is beside the point , but I'll answer it anyway. The answer is no, but JA and Lovie decided that fixing other areas will improve our QB play. I am doubtful, but understand the the franchise QB will be addressed next year if the plan flops. At that point we are another year behind.

 

I like Forte, but I am sorry. RBs may not be a dime a dozen, but they are not that far from it. Build the OL, and watch even AP look like a stud.

You had me until you said AP and stud in the same sentence.

 

And we could have had both anyway.

Agreed, and that was my stated wish all along.

I just flat out would not have cost that much to move up from the 3rd round if Forte was considered that great.

Agreed also, we just don't know. Maybe a deal was close and we got screwed. Anyway, Other than the top 4 QB's, I just don't see a franchise guy out there. Weak year for QB's - IMO.

[adam]

Nice on the blunt.

 

So let me understand. We need insurance behind Benson, but not Rex or Orton?

 

Competition for our RB is more important than finding a franchise QB?

 

I like Forte, but I am sorry. RBs may not be a dime a dozen, but they are not that far from it. Build the OL, and watch even AP look like a stud.

 

And we could have had both anyway. I just flat out would not have cost that much to move up from the 3rd round if Forte was considered that great.

One thing to consider is the Line play had a lot to do with the regression of Grossman. He has shown that when he is on, he can be a pretty good QB, and when he is off he can be brutal. The Bears must feel like a healthy Grossman and Orton has more upside than a Benson with a plate in his ankle. That is why they had to address RB after OT.

[nfoligno]

Absolutely. Rex and Kyle are young and injury free at this point. Benson is rehabbing from a career threatening injury. We don't know if he's lost his ability or not. Plus, added motivation will bring out whether Benson wants to be a football player or not. This should remove any sense of entitlement he feels he has. If he's a pissy bitch about it - done.

 

One, you base your info on his injury according to who? The team has said he is 100% NOW, and that reports of how serious the injury was, were exaggerated. Maybe that is a lie. But I think it wrong to state, "Benson is rehabbing from a career threatening injury" as though it was a fact, when it is not. It is a rumor the media reported, which the has continued to contradict. Team could be lying, but the point is, this is far from fact.

 

Two. I have no argument w/ needing a RB to backup/push/compete w/ Benson. I said the same last year, and have never believe Wolfe was that player, thus felt this year we still needed that player. But my point is not whether we needed a RB, but the idea we don't need a QB, which just baffles the mind to me. I could list 100 young and injury free QBs. So what. What is your point. Rex has had his opportunity, and for whatever reason he wants to blame, he has not done enough w/ those opportunities. I will grant that Ortan has never been given the same opportunities, but at the same time, I do not think he is so lock solid that we should assume he simply steps into the role.

 

You say we have two young, healthy QBs. I say we have two unproven QBs who are not locked up for the long term. Our QBs position has been a question mark (at best) for a long time, and we have yet to see anything from Rex or Orton that should lead us to believe the position is solid. I am not saying we should believe Benson is a stud. My point is w/ the idea that we needed a RB more than a QB. How long have we searched for a QB?

 

That question is beside the point , but I'll answer it anyway. The answer is no, but JA and Lovie decided that fixing other areas will improve our QB play. I am doubtful, but understand the the franchise QB will be addressed next year if the plan flops. At that point we are another year behind.

 

Wanna guess how my wife feel's when I tell her "I'll take care of that later". That's about how I feel when Angelo says he will take care of the QB spot later.

 

You had me until you said AP and stud in the same sentence.

 

Okay, maybe stud is a tad bit of an exaggeration, but I think you get the point. What did you think of Chester Taylor before Minny signed him? Did you think he was a 1,300 yard rusher? How about taking a look at TJ w/ us. I know bear fans want to think he is a stud, but take a look at his career. Absolutely nothing for AZ. Flash in the pan that couldn't start for TB. After us, he sucks w/ the Jets, and they were looking at RB in the top 5 of the draft to replace him. But w/ us? We put him behind a very good OL, and he was near pro bowl. Maybe he is just that good, but look at his career, and I think the evidence would indicate it was more about our OL. One more example. A-Train behind a solid OL his rookie year was a 1,100 yard rusher w/ a + 4 YPC average. Never the same once that line went down, w/ us or another team.

 

So maybe our AP could not be like Minny's AP, but I do believe our AP behind Minny's OL could look like Chester Taylor.

 

Agreed, and that was my stated wish all along. Agreed also, we just don't know. Maybe a deal was close and we got screwed. Anyway, Other than the top 4 QB's, I just don't see a franchise guy out there. Weak year for QB's - IMO.

 

I don't know. Maybe it was a weak year for QBs. Then again, it was a weak year for safeties, and we took one. We took some very poor odds fliers on players day two. While this QB class may simply have nothing to offer, I just believe it is worth a flier on the most important position in football.

[nfoligno]

One thing to consider is the Line play had a lot to do with the regression of Grossman. He has shown that when he is on, he can be a pretty good QB, and when he is off he can be brutal. The Bears must feel like a healthy Grossman and Orton has more upside than a Benson with a plate in his ankle. That is why they had to address RB after OT.

 

First, it works both ways. If you want to use the OL to defend Rex, then how can you condemn Benson who is even more directly affected by the weak OL play.

 

Second, I would argue that even during our SB run, when our OL was great, Rex went downhill. Rex started out on fire, but teams seemed to shift and adjust to him, and his play went downhill fast. He had a couple more good games, but by in large, I would argue his play was affected prior to the decline in our OL.

 

Last, If they feel Rex and Orton still have upside, enought to lead this team to a SB, then what is the point in arguing. We are done. And while I have said all along we should draft a RB, I simply question why this board so hard fell in love w/ Forte, like he was the only RB in the draft. Give me Brohm in the 2nd and Jamal Charles in the 3rd in a heartbeat. Maybe Forte is better than Charles, but I do not think the difference is so great as to warrant passing on Brohm.

[madlithuanian]

Good points...

 

Regarding Rex...

 

I think the OL is almost moot with Rex. I think he has been shattered regardless. Whether by his own doing (which I think) or whether by lack of protection (part of the problem, but not all). You mention correctly that teams just figured him out. He has a great 5 games out of the box, and then was mediocre os awful after that. He bounced back well I think in the Tampa game our SB year...but there is just too much inconsistancy with a lean on awful.

 

First, it works both ways. If you want to use the OL to defend Rex, then how can you condemn Benson who is even more directly affected by the weak OL play.

 

Second, I would argue that even during our SB run, when our OL was great, Rex went downhill. Rex started out on fire, but teams seemed to shift and adjust to him, and his play went downhill fast. He had a couple more good games, but by in large, I would argue his play was affected prior to the decline in our OL.

 

Last, If they feel Rex and Orton still have upside, enought to lead this team to a SB, then what is the point in arguing. We are done. And while I have said all along we should draft a RB, I simply question why this board so hard fell in love w/ Forte, like he was the only RB in the draft. Give me Brohm in the 2nd and Jamal Charles in the 3rd in a heartbeat. Maybe Forte is better than Charles, but I do not think the difference is so great as to warrant passing on Brohm.

[nfoligno]

I believe it was Minny that showed how Rex tends to crumble under pressure, and from that point on, teams began sending the house at him. Rex simply does not "see the field" quick enough to find the open receiver when under pressure. Further, Rex does not seem to have a good feel in the pocket. There were times I saw a rusher coming right at Rex, directly in front of him, and Rex did not seem to notice until it was too late. It was only worse when the rusher came from the outside.

 

You look around the league, and you see the good QBs simply seem to feel the pressure. They take a step up in the pocket to make a rusher miss, barely, but miss none the less.

 

Further, when Rex is pressured, and moves to avoid the rush, he seems to take his eyes off the field. He all but puts his head down to get away from the rush, while better QBs move to avoid the rush while still looking downfield to make a play.

 

So the book on Rex seems to be, pressure him and the odds are, results favor the defense. Better OL protection helps, but if a defense makes a commitment to sending the house, then it is on the QB because you can only block so many at a time.

[madlithuanian]

I think you might be right...but oddly enough I think is was Denny Green that really exposed it. Miami just perfected it and got the win without heroics from Urlacher or Hester.

 

I couldn't agree more. Rex, simply put, is not an NFl calibur QB. He has too much downside compared to his upside. If you couple it with a stout D and off the charts return game, you'll end up winning more than youlose...but you won't win the big one.

 

I just see Rex as a true deer in the headlights...

 

 

I believe it was Minny that showed how Rex tends to crumble under pressure, and from that point on, teams began sending the house at him. Rex simply does not "see the field" quick enough to find the open receiver when under pressure. Further, Rex does not seem to have a good feel in the pocket. There were times I saw a rusher coming right at Rex, directly in front of him, and Rex did not seem to notice until it was too late. It was only worse when the rusher came from the outside.

 

You look around the league, and you see the good QBs simply seem to feel the pressure. They take a step up in the pocket to make a rusher miss, barely, but miss none the less.

 

Further, when Rex is pressured, and moves to avoid the rush, he seems to take his eyes off the field. He all but puts his head down to get away from the rush, while better QBs move to avoid the rush while still looking downfield to make a play.

 

So the book on Rex seems to be, pressure him and the odds are, results favor the defense. Better OL protection helps, but if a defense makes a commitment to sending the house, then it is on the QB because you can only block so many at a time.

[balta1701-A]

I just see Rex as a true deer in the headlights...

A lot of QB's look like that their first season or two of games. Rex has played roughly 2 seasons worth of games as a starter given injuries and benchings. At least to my eyes, when Griese got hurt last year and Rex came in, despite the O-Line being a cavernous hole in front of him, I thought he performed quite a bit better.

[madlithuanian]

He did do better that game...but also, most guys coming off benches look great until they start. Looks at Rosenfels this year for example in Texas...

 

A lot of QB's look like that their first season or two of games. Rex has played roughly 2 seasons worth of games as a starter given injuries and benchings. At least to my eyes, when Griese got hurt last year and Rex came in, despite the O-Line being a cavernous hole in front of him, I thought he performed quite a bit better.

[adam]

First, it works both ways. If you want to use the OL to defend Rex, then how can you condemn Benson who is even more directly affected by the weak OL play.

 

Second, I would argue that even during our SB run, when our OL was great, Rex went downhill. Rex started out on fire, but teams seemed to shift and adjust to him, and his play went downhill fast. He had a couple more good games, but by in large, I would argue his play was affected prior to the decline in our OL.

 

Last, If they feel Rex and Orton still have upside, enought to lead this team to a SB, then what is the point in arguing. We are done. And while I have said all along we should draft a RB, I simply question why this board so hard fell in love w/ Forte, like he was the only RB in the draft. Give me Brohm in the 2nd and Jamal Charles in the 3rd in a heartbeat. Maybe Forte is better than Charles, but I do not think the difference is so great as to warrant passing on Brohm.

When did I condemn Benson about his play? I thought Benson would've been much better if he wasn't getting hit behind the LoS. I just said he was more of a question mark now with a plate in his ankle compared to a healthy Grossman or Orton with a good O-Line. That would make it easier to draft an RB before QB. Now the baffling part is that we did not draft a QB at all. That speaks volumes. We draft OT, RB, WR, DT, S, CB, TE, DE, but not QB?

 

I agree about Brohm/Charles over Forte/Bennett, but it depends on how each of those were rated on their board (which we will never know). However, if Brohm was rated higher than Forte, with the needs being equal, there is no way they go with Forte over Brohm. That tells me that Brohm or Henne were not that highly rated or may not have even been on the Bears board.

[nfoligno]

A big part of me simply wonders if grade was even an issue here, or if we simply were not looking at QB. What I believe is this.

 

If we drafted a QB this year, I think we would likely still not start him in '08. So, assuming Rex/Orton still do not pan out, the rookie steps in in '09. While in his 2nd year, he would still be a first year starter, and the assumption would have to be he would struggle. So it would be more likely 2010 before we really hope to emerge on offense. IMHO, Angelo and Co didn't want to go that route. Instead, they are trying to build around the QB in hopes that one more year of confidence in our current QBs pays off.

 

So I believe it wasn't so much about grade as much as simply not wanting a QB, which would essentially set up a building project for the offense. I think Angelo is still trying to win now.

 

I believe that is the logic, but do not agree. I think we have given Rex enough opportunities, and he has simply not done enough w/ those opportunities. As for Orton, while I would love to think he could be great, I think the odds are not real high.

 

I would have, and did, argue against a QB in the 1st, but feel it was a mistake to pass on Brohm in the 2nd. At that point, we had already secured our LT, and were still in position to build around the QB position. We didn't have to just do one or the other. We could have built around the QB position, while also adding a QB. If Rex/Orton break out. Great. I would much rather be in a situation like Cle w/ two QBs we like, rather than having none.

 

Final point. I read over and over again about how we can add a QB next year if Rex/Orton don't work out this year. Poor logic IMHO. Getting a QB is simply not so easy. Take one when you can. We do not have a clue what next year's class will be like. Several QBs who were considered studs heading into the 2007 college year fell by wayside, while Ryan and Flacco leaped up the boards. Just too hard to predict.

 

Look at what GB did. They may well have their QB in Rogers, but regardless, grabbed insurance on their bet by drafting Brohm and Flynn. I like that plan far more than ours, which once again simply banks on faith in QBs who have proven jack.

 

I don't care how good the players in our draft turnout. If 10 years from now I have to see stats showing how many different bear QBs have started in during the career of Brohm, as we have suffered w/ Favre, I will be sick.

[Mongo3451]

One, you base your info on his injury according to who? The team has said he is 100% NOW, and that reports of how serious the injury was, were exaggerated. Maybe that is a lie. But I think it wrong to state, "Benson is rehabbing from a career threatening injury" as though it was a fact, when it is not. It is a rumor the media reported, which the has continued to contradict. Team could be lying, but the point is, this is far from fact.

One - He has a steel plate in his lower ankle. Two - His carreer is on thin ice anyway. Three - the Bears are pathological liars when it comes to injuries. IE: Rueben Brown and others. Four - Lovie and JA have both called out Benson this off season. Why? Is he not re-habbing as well as he should. Is his psyche fragile and he's needing a kick in the ass. Have the doctors said he could have lost a step. FYI - I have heard medical opinion on this type injury. Not Benson's specifically, but very similar instances. Ankle flexion can be lost, as well as stability causing the delicate balance of power and nimbleness to be compromised.

 

You say we have two young, healthy QBs. I say we have two unproven QBs who are not locked up for the long term. Our QBs position has been a question mark (at best) for a long time, and we have yet to see anything from Rex or Orton that should lead us to believe the position is solid. I am not saying we should believe Benson is a stud. My point is w/ the idea that we needed a RB more than a QB. How long have we searched for a QB?

 

Wanna guess how my wife feel's when I tell her "I'll take care of that later". That's about how I feel when Angelo says he will take care of the QB spot later.

Who doesn't want it fixed? I just don't agree there was any future help past the 3rd round.

 

Okay, maybe stud is a tad bit of an exaggeration, but I think you get the point.

Tad? That's like you claiming you could have turned the Titanic with a squirt gun.

 

So maybe our AP could not be like Minny's AP, but I do believe our AP behind Minny's OL could look like Chester Taylor.

Still no. Hell no.

 

Then again, it was a weak year for safeties, and we took one.

Safety is easier to draft and expect to contribute on special teams, especially in the 4th round.

Question. Who would you have drafted past the 3rd? Do you really feel Forte will contribute less than a QB would? Or do simply desire us to trade some picks to the 2nd and get Henne / Brohm?