Points of View, May 16, 2008

[tshanno]

Friday, May 16, 2008

 

 

Points of View, May 16, 2008

 

http://chicagobearsfanforum.com/blog/?p=246

 

The Bears

 

*

 

Rex Grossman spoke briefly to the Chicago Tribune yesterday. Among other things he expressed gratitude toward the Bears for giving him another opportunity with a one-year deal. Grossman evidently doesn't understand that he's going to get as many chances as he needs until he either succeeds for at least one year and gets a long-term contract or GM Jerry Angelo, who took him in the first round, gets himself fired. Dick Jauron was less loyal to John Shoop.

*

 

Lovie Smith answered questions from fans on chicagobears.com. Among the more significant revelations he said the competition at guard will be between Josh Beekman and Terrence Metcalf. I've got Beekman in that competition just based upon the fact that no one was very happy with Metcalf last year.

 

Smith believes John St. Clair is too valuable as a swing tackle. Personally, I think St. Clair might have been more valuable inside as an every day guard but I've got no real problem with the decision if Beekman turns out to be better anyway.

*

 

Smith was also asked what he was going to do to get the defense back into 2006 form. His answer was basically, "nothing." Which I interpreted to mean "stay healthy".

*

 

Tampa Bay QB Brian Griese was interviewed by the St. Petersburg Times. He handled the obligatory questions about being an ex-Bear with his customary professionalism:

 

"'It wasn't necessarily a system that fit my strengths and what I do well," he said. "And so it's probably best that we both parted ways."

*

 

Larry Mayer of chicagobears.com is there to answer your undrafted free agent questions:

 

How do the two undrafted free agent quarterbacks the Bears have on their roster, Caleb Hanie and Nick Hill, compare to Chris Leak, who was with the Bears last summer?

 

Larry P.

Wheeling, Illinois

 

From what I've seen and been told, there's no comparison at all. Caleb Hanie and Nick Hill are much better pro prospects than Chris Leak. They both have much stronger arms, better size and more potential than the former Florida star.

 

I'm not going to claim to be the biggest Chris Leak fan. Having said that, Joe Montana is one of the best QBs ever to play the game, yet we still talk almost entirely about stronger arms and better size when we rate our QBs. Minnesota's Tarvaris Jackson has a strong arm, too. How is that working out for them?

 

Elsewhere

 

*

 

Hide your daughters. Cowboys QB Tony Romo is in town and he's says he's single again. Meanwhile Jessica Simpson is drowning her sorrows.

 

My place is right downtown near the stadium if you need a someone to talk to, Jess. And by "talk to", I mean "pass out on."

*

 

The Bears aren't the only team with an "fair" QB competition going into training camp. Chad Pennington won a coin flip which will allow him to work with the first-team offense on opening day of OTAs. Despite that, the guess here is that Kellen Clemons is their Rex Grossman and the default starter in the absence of a clear winner. Dennis Dillon at The Sporting News agrees.

*

 

Matt Walsh gave an interview to the New York Times. The most significant revelation to me:

 

"...there was one time that I was filming and another team had set up their third video guy right next to me in our stadium. And when our team was on defense, I looked over at him, and he was angling his camera toward our sideline. I didn't ask him about it, because I was doing the same thing he was."

 

Buckle in folks. If anyone at all does a real decent and impartial job of investigating this, its not going to end soon. The commissioner can claim all he wants that he punished the Patriots enough and maybe he did. But he hasn't punished anyone else for any similar wrong doing and my guess is that Arlen Specter won't have to look hard to find it.

 

One Last Thought

 

Steve Rosenbloom's question of the day: "The Choice (and remember, death is not an option): Goodell saying 'Spygate' is over or Dubya saying 'Mission accomplished'?"

[azbearsfan]

Friday, May 16, 2008

 

 

Points of View, May 16, 2008

 

http://chicagobearsfanforum.com/blog/?p=246

 

The Bears

 

*

 

Rex Grossman spoke briefly to the Chicago Tribune yesterday. Among other things he expressed gratitude toward the Bears for giving him another opportunity with a one-year deal. Grossman evidently doesn't understand that he's going to get as many chances as he needs until he either succeeds for at least one year and gets a long-term contract or GM Jerry Angelo, who took him in the first round, gets himself fired. Dick Jauron was less loyal to John Shoop.

*

 

 

This is the kind of ignorant crap I hate when people talk about Rex. They refuse to accept the fact that two seasons ago he had a good year(the best of any Bears qb since Kramer) and got the team to the Super Bowl. Last year was trash(although looked better at the end until he got hurt). So from that potential the team got a cheap, one year deal on a qb who has shown great flashes. If he doesn't get it done this year, he's done in Chicago.

Basically its between Rex and Kyle to win that long term deal.

[jason]

Rex Grossman spoke briefly to the Chicago Tribune yesterday. Among other things he expressed gratitude toward the Bears for giving him another opportunity with a one-year deal. Grossman evidently doesn't understand that he's going to get as many chances as he needs until he either succeeds for at least one year and gets a long-term contract or GM Jerry Angelo, who took him in the first round, gets himself fired. Dick Jauron was less loyal to John Shoop.

 

I disagree with this twofold.

 

1) The most obvious error in your statement is the comparison between Rex and Shoop. Whereas Rex has shown glimpses of competence, and possibly even all-pro play, Shoop pretty much sucked every day while he was with the Bears. At least when Rex messes up, it's because he's trying too hard, and attempting to make a play. When Shoop messed up - which was MUCH more often than Rex - it was more of the cower in fear variety. Until the defense starts to openly yell at Rex on the sideline for his errors, then there is no valid comparison.

 

2) I think the potential Rex has shown, and not the blind loyalty from JA, is what has given him the 1-year deal, and the potential for a long-term deal. When the Bears went to the Superbowl, Rex had several games where he looked like one of the top 5 QBs in the league. It's just that nobody remembers it, because the media would rather focus on the 3 or 4 games in which he looked like one of the worst QBs in the league.

[BearsFan]

Tom's not alone in suspecting Rex will get more chances even if he doesn't shine this year. Here are a couple scenerios:

 

1) Grossman plays slightly better football than the 2nd half of the '06 and the '07 season. Half way thru the year he has his another injury. Orton comes in and stinks the place up the rest of the season. What's Angelo going to do? He has no other legitimate QB prospect in the pipeline for '09. Yep, I could see him giving Rex another one-year chance!

 

2) Orton looks bad in camp, Rex looks great, and is the starter. He plays more consistently, with his "bad Rex" games now in the 40s. However, he doesn't have the huge games like he did in '06. That's quite possible because BB was his favorite target. He ends up with a 75 rating,under 60% completions, and cut his INTs down some, but not much. That's still not an NFL level of performance, but I could see Angelo giving him another one-year chance because he improved.

[azbearsfan]

Tom's not alone in suspecting Rex will get more chances even if he doesn't shine this year. Here are a couple scenerios:

 

1) Grossman plays slightly better football than the 2nd half of the '06 and the '07 season. Half way thru the year he has his another injury. Orton comes in and stinks the place up the rest of the season. What's Angelo going to do? He has no other legitimate QB prospect in the pipeline for '09. Yep, I could see him giving Rex another one-year chance!

 

2) Orton looks bad in camp, Rex looks great, and is the starter. He plays more consistently, with his "bad Rex" games now in the 40s. However, he doesn't have the huge games like he did in '06. That's quite possible because BB was his favorite target. He ends up with a 75 rating,under 60% completions, and cut his INTs down some, but not much. That's still not an NFL level of performance, but I could see Angelo giving him another one-year chance because he improved.

 

 

Yeah but that's alot of ifs, though.

 

Lets say option 1 happens AND Orton gets hurt, Hanie comes in a tears it up. Rex wouldn't get an extension then.

 

Option 2 is too many if and and buts

[ChileBear]

2) I think the potential Rex has shown, and not the blind loyalty from JA, is what has given him the 1-year deal, and the potential for a long-term deal. When the Bears went to the Superbowl, Rex had several games where he looked like one of the top 5 QBs in the league. It's just that nobody remembers it, because the media would rather focus on the 3 or 4 games in which he looked like one of the worst QBs in the league.

Yep, Jason. JA gave Rex one more year to show that he can bury 'Bad' Rex. I hope he does. Given what 'Good' Rex looked like, I think it's a pretty good deal, given the QBs that were there in the draft and FA.

[BearsFan]

Yeah but that's alot of ifs, though.

 

Lets say option 1 happens AND Orton gets hurt, Hanie comes in a tears it up. Rex wouldn't get an extension then.

 

Option 2 is too many if and and buts

 

The odds of either of the UDFA QBs, from what was touted as a notoriously weak class, coming in as a rookie and doing anything are very poor. If both Rex and Kyle end up injured, the Bears probably won't win another game.

 

I think option 2 could happen. Rex always looks great in camp, where he knows nobody can touch him. I can see him raising his worst performances up, which means he probably throws less INTs. Without BB and Moose, his two favorite targets, I can see his best games dropping as well. However, I still think he's a mid 70s QB overall, and that will be because of his poor completion ratio. JMO

 

.

[DrunkBomber]

The odds of either of the UDFA QBs, from what was touted as a notoriously weak class, coming in as a rookie and doing anything are very poor. If both Rex and Kyle end up injured, the Bears probably won't win another game.

 

I think option 2 could happen. Rex always looks great in camp, where he knows nobody can touch him. I can see him raising his worst performances up, which means he probably throws less INTs. Without BB and Moose, his two favorite targets, I can see his best games dropping as well. However, I still think he's a mid 70s QB overall, and that will be because of his poor completion ratio. JMO

 

.

I think Clark was more of a favorite target for him than Moose. I also think that Olsen will be a better target than either of them. Then factor in Hester keeping defenses honest and he might surprise some people.

[tshanno]

This is the kind of ignorant crap I hate when people talk about Rex. They refuse to accept the fact that two seasons ago he had a good year(the best of any Bears qb since Kramer) and got the team to the Super Bowl.

 

He had one good half season. Then the NFL figured him out and he's been unable to adjust. My attitude was exactly as yours is now this time last year. then when the season started and I realized that he'd learned nothing, my adoration was over.

 

If Grossman proves me wrong, great. No one will be quicker to admit that' he's wrong than me. But I don't think he's got what it takes.

 

Tom S.

[tshanno]

I think option 2 could happen. Rex always looks great in camp, where he knows nobody can touch him. I can see him raising his worst performances up, which means he probably throws less INTs.

 

I can see him becoming something of a game manager, I suppose. He kind of had that look when they brought him back again late last season. Lots of safe passes. Plenty of people like that.

 

Tom S.

[DrunkBomber]

I can see him becoming something of a game manager, I suppose. He kind of had that look when they brought him back again late last season. Lots of safe passes. Plenty of people like that.

 

Tom S.

Youre right, when he came back during that Oakland game from then on he seemed much more comfortable out there and wasnt making the risky throws he had been known for. If he can continue the way he looked at the end of the year and develop timing with his weapons he might be able to minimize mistakes and manage the games better.

[azbearsfan]

He had one good half season. Then the NFL figured him out and he's been unable to adjust. My attitude was exactly as yours is now this time last year. then when the season started and I realized that he'd learned nothing, my adoration was over.

 

If Grossman proves me wrong, great. No one will be quicker to admit that' he's wrong than me. But I don't think he's got what it takes.

 

Tom S.

 

 

Again you are not looking at facts. He had good games in the second half of 2006 and in the playoffs that year. He also had a couple last year.

 

But the charge that some crapbag qb is going to be handed a long term contract is ridiculous, IMO.

[DrunkBomber]

Theres a lot of things that factor into the ups and downs of Grossmans career. He has been the best qb weve had since Kramer. We have also had a lot of success with him. Two years ago, he was considered an MVP candidate up until the Arizona game. Then after that game he went out and torched San Fransisco the next week. Then, in the beginning of last season there was a lot of pressure on him and the team. They were picked to pretty much stroll through the NFC. However, we lost our best offensive weapon, Jones and our offensive line took a huge step back. He also didnt get much time with Olsen either. After he say for a while and the pressure was off, when he came back he looked like a completely different QB. He wasnt forcing throws, he wasnt staring down the WRs and he was keeping the team in position to win games which is what we wanted him to do. this was also with injuries on the line and AP as the running game.

 

With low expectations this season, and a different mix of skill players around him I think he is going to win the starting job and actually surprise a lot of people.

[Mongo3451]

Theres a lot of things that factor into the ups and downs of Grossmans career. He has been the best qb weve had since Kramer. We have also had a lot of success with him. Two years ago, he was considered an MVP candidate up until the Arizona game. Then after that game he went out and torched San Fransisco the next week. Then, in the beginning of last season there was a lot of pressure on him and the team. They were picked to pretty much stroll through the NFC. However, we lost our best offensive weapon, Jones and our offensive line took a huge step back. He also didnt get much time with Olsen either. After he say for a while and the pressure was off, when he came back he looked like a completely different QB. He wasnt forcing throws, he wasnt staring down the WRs and he was keeping the team in position to win games which is what we wanted him to do. this was also with injuries on the line and AP as the running game.

 

With low expectations this season, and a different mix of skill players around him I think he is going to win the starting job and actually surprise a lot of people.

I have no more hope that Rex will ever be a top 10 QB. I don't even think his skill set places him in the top 15 talent wise. What I always hoped for was for Rex to be an innovator or creator. He has proven that he can not as he continually flops if a play goes bad. Add to that, his tiny hands with fumbling and a major lack of pocket awareness, Rex is doomed. Here's the funny part: Rex is all-pro in camp and will probably beat Orton out. Rex is a one trick pony with the deep outs and posts and teams have taken that away. I'll stick my neck out and say Orton is the gamer of the two and actually made a winning record of the same crap Rex lost with. I'll take Kyle hands down.

 

I still have playoff expectations, but only after Rex pisses down his leg, again, and Orton takes over.

[DrunkBomber]

I have no more hope that Rex will ever be a top 10 QB. I don't even think his skill set places him in the top 15 talent wise. What I always hoped for was for Rex to be an innovator or creator. He has proven that he can not as he continually flops if a play goes bad. Add to that, his tiny hands with fumbling and a major lack of pocket awareness, Rex is doomed. Here's the funny part: Rex is all-pro in camp and will probably beat Orton out. Rex is a one trick pony with the deep outs and posts and teams have taken that away. I'll stick my neck out and say Orton is the gamer of the two and actually made a winning record of the same crap Rex lost with. I'll take Kyle hands down.

 

I still have playoff expectations, but only after Rex pisses down his leg, again, and Orton takes over.

You dont think Rex looked much better from when he came in during the Oakland game on?

[DrunkBomber]

First 3 games: 47 of 89 exactly 500 yards 1 td 6 int

 

Oakland: 7 of 14 142 yards 1 td and 0 ints

Seattle: 24 of 37 266 yards 0 td and 0 int

Denver: 17 of 33 193 yards 1 td and 1 int

Giants: 25 of 46 296 yards 1 td and 0 int

 

With the exception of Oakland the other three are all playoff teams including the champs and the best CB tandem in the NFL. Those numbers arent satisfactory for a team with a dominant defense, a returner who gets good field position and a team that is supposed to run first? I would think most Bears fans would be happy if he could produce like that for a whole season. He looked good the whole end of the year when he was playing.

[azbearsfan]

I have no more hope that Rex will ever be a top 10 QB. I don't even think his skill set places him in the top 15 talent wise. What I always hoped for was for Rex to be an innovator or creator. He has proven that he can not as he continually flops if a play goes bad. Add to that, his tiny hands with fumbling and a major lack of pocket awareness, Rex is doomed. Here's the funny part: Rex is all-pro in camp and will probably beat Orton out. Rex is a one trick pony with the deep outs and posts and teams have taken that away. I'll stick my neck out and say Orton is the gamer of the two and actually made a winning record of the same crap Rex lost with. I'll take Kyle hands down.

 

I still have playoff expectations, but only after Rex pisses down his leg, again, and Orton takes over.

 

 

I'm not sure where you get that Orton is much better than Rex. Their numbers are comparable and when Orton finally got to play last year I was really expecting more. His accuracy was trash with him bouncing balls like some rookie.

 

There is just no way you can say that Orton is so much better at QB than Rex. Personally I just hope one of them figures it out. If they dont I would rather watch Hanie or Hill to just watch someone new.

[DrunkBomber]

I'm not sure where you get that Orton is much better than Rex. Their numbers are comparable and when Orton finally got to play last year I was really expecting more. His accuracy was trash with him bouncing balls like some rookie.

 

There is just no way you can say that Orton is so much better at QB than Rex. Personally I just hope one of them figures it out. If they dont I would rather watch Hanie or Hill to just watch someone new.

I think its fair to compare Ortons and Grossmans numbers at the end of the season. Grossman played roughly 3.50 games and Orton played 3 games.

 

Grossman played the 2nd half of the Oakland game and came in when they were losing and won the game. He then went against the best CB tandem in the league, Denver. Playoff team Seattle and against the Super Bowl champs, NYG. After those 3.5 games Grossmans rating was 88.8. If you dont believe it you can calculate it yourselves.

 

Orton came in and lost his first game to Minnestoa and then beat the Packers and the Saints. His rating was 73.9.

 

Now I understand that people are going to be quick to refer back to the bad games Grossman had and try to focus on the negatives, but if you look at the way he played at the end of the season he was a completely different quarterback. Objectively would you not say you would like to have a qb with a rating of 88.8? I was also impressed by Ortons play and I think he is capable of being a good qb and I like the open competition and I will support whoever wins the job. I just dont see how anyone can honestly say that Orton is significantly better the Grossman. The last 7 games of the season both guys had pretty much the same guys around them and expectations for the playoffs were roughly at the same point. We cant say for certain if Grossman will pick up where he left off, but if he does we might have lucked out by resigning him, and if not we give Orton a shot.

[Mongo3451]

I'm not sure where you get that Orton is much better than Rex. Their numbers are comparable and when Orton finally got to play last year I was really expecting more. His accuracy was trash with him bouncing balls like some rookie.

 

There is just no way you can say that Orton is so much better at QB than Rex. Personally I just hope one of them figures it out. If they dont I would rather watch Hanie or Hill to just watch someone new.

I didn't say Kyle was that much better than Rex. I said I'd take Kyle hands down. IMO - Kyle is a gamer and Rex is not. Rex had the full benefit of an offense tailored for his skills and the #1 reps at training camp. Kyle got 3rd string reps and no tailoring for his skill set. Kyle went 2-1 with a lineup and scheme built for Rex, without the benefit of a lot of practice time. I also don't forget his accomplishments his rookie season. Sure it was the defense that won a lot of games, but the rookie came in and kept his cool didn't lose games for us all while being thrown under the bus by his high priced veteren #1 reciever.

 

IMO - Orton just has more sack than Rex. I simply want football players on this team. He doesn't fumble, he has better pocket awareness, he's not afraid to get hit in the teeth and finds a way to make plays when it counts. Orton has NEVER same support/opprtunity Rex has had. He ain't much better, be better just enough IMO.

[DrunkBomber]

I didn't say Kyle was that much better than Rex. I said I'd take Kyle hands down. IMO - Kyle is a gamer and Rex is not. Rex had the full benefit of an offense tailored for his skills and the #1 reps at training camp. Kyle got 3rd string reps and no tailoring for his skill set. Kyle went 2-1 with a lineup and scheme built for Rex, without the benefit of a lot of practice time. I also don't forget his accomplishments his rookie season. Sure it was the defense that won a lot of games, but the rookie came in and kept his cool didn't lose games for us all while being thrown under the bus by his high priced veteren #1 reciever.

 

IMO - Orton just has more sack than Rex. I simply want football players on this team. He doesn't fumble, he has better pocket awareness, he's not afraid to get hit in the teeth and finds a way to make plays when it counts. Orton has NEVER same support/opprtunity Rex has had. He ain't much better, be better just enough IMO.

Im not sure who is better at this point, I do know that Grossmans rating was 15 points higher than Ortons at the end of last season and Grossman has started a Super Bowl. (to save you the trouble, Rex was a big factor in the playoffs in terms of getting the team to the Super Bowl.

[Mongo3451]

Im not sure who is better at this point, I do know that Grossmans rating was 15 points higher than Ortons at the end of last season and Grossman has started a Super Bowl. (to save you the trouble, Rex was a big factor in the playoffs in terms of getting the team to the Super Bowl.

Remember in a previous post in this thread, I stated that Rex is a one trick pony and other teams have figured out how to play him. What he did in 06 was a distant memory in 07. It's not that I forgot, Rex did. During the five game span you are referring to, Rex had Benson who was heating up and was still 2-3. Kyle was 2-1 with AP at RB and was almost 3-0. Rex also lost a few fumbles to Kyle's zero. I truly could care less about ratings. The stats I care about with QB's are TO's and W's.

[DrunkBomber]

Look at the all purpose yards AP had the last few games. Also the two highest rushing games the Bears had all season were AP the last two games of the season in which Orton started. AP is also a much better blocker and receiving option. Having Benson in might explain why Grossman was hit so many times where he fumbled and was sacked. All things being considered maybe we should look at how the defenses played when each qb started. When Grossman started the defense was giving up 28.3 ppg. When Orton started the defense gave up 17.3 points. Now, if we count Grossmans comeback against the Raiders both Qbs won 2 games and Grossman lost one more than Orton. However, the defense was 11 points stingier for Orton and Grossmans rating was 15 points higher. If you dont like Grossman thats one thing. But there isnt anything close to statistical data that supports that theory, in fact it says the opposite.

[tshanno]

I disagree with this twofold.

 

1) The most obvious error in your statement is the comparison between Rex and Shoop. Whereas Rex has shown glimpses of competence, and possibly even all-pro play, Shoop pretty much sucked every day while he was with the Bears. At least when Rex messes up, it's because he's trying too hard, and attempting to make a play. When Shoop messed up - which was MUCH more often than Rex - it was more of the cower in fear variety. Until the defense starts to openly yell at Rex on the sideline for his errors, then there is no valid comparison.

 

I meant only to compare the degree of loyalty shown. IMO Angelo is about as likely to completely let go of Grossman as Jauron was to let go of Shoop. There's too much pride involved in both cases.

 

Tom S.

[tshanno]

But the charge that some crapbag qb is going to be handed a long term contract is ridiculous, IMO.

 

All it takes is one good year. Then its Angelo saying, "Told you." and poof, there's the contract. Why do you think he's on a noe year contract in the first place? Its his agent stringing out his tenure with the Bears to give him a chance to hit the big money. And Angelo going along withi enthusiasm becaseu, when it come sdown to it, thre's no way he could have possibly made a mistake, right?

 

Tom S.

[tshanno]

Remember in a previous post in this thread, I stated that Rex is a one trick pony and other teams have figured out how to play him. What he did in 06 was a distant memory in 07.

 

Its not that he was a one trick pony. They figured out that they had to bring pressure up the middle. One Grossman coldn't step up in the pocket it wa over for him. And for the most part it still it.

 

Tom S.