Points of View, May 16, 2008

[DrunkBomber]

Its not that he was a one trick pony. They figured out that they had to bring pressure up the middle. One Grossman coldn't step up in the pocket it wa over for him. And for the most part it still it.

 

Tom S.

Can you explain why if he has been figured out and its all over for him why his QB rating was 88.8?

[tshanno]

Can you explain why if he has been figured out and its all over for him why his QB rating was 88.8?

 

I'm not sure where that number came from but his 2007 QB rating was 66.4. I don't think his rating has ever been above 75 even in his best year. Here's the link where I got the numbers:

 

http://www.chicagobears.com/team/player32.html#career_stats

 

Look I'm not saying the guy is done. It's never over till its over. Its just that I don't think he's got it. There's an instinct that comes with being able to feel pressure and get away from it. Grossman doesn't have it. Or if he does, he's not showing it.

 

Pep Hamilton had him sliding to the right the entire off season trying to "teach" him how to move. The only thing it did was cause him to step into the arms of the defensive end when they brought pressure from the outside.

 

He could become a game manager. Dump it off. Lots of short passes. But the truth is that unless he gets perfect protection, he's not going to be able to hang in the pocket and run Turner's system. I'm not sure why the Bears think he can but here's hoping they're right. The entire league seems to disagree.

 

Tom S.

[adam]

I'm not sure where that number came from but his 2007 QB rating was 66.4. I don't think his rating has ever been above 75 even in his best year. Here's the link where I got the numbers:

 

http://www.chicagobears.com/team/player32.html#career_stats

 

Look I'm not saying the guy is done. It's never over till its over. Its just that I don't think he's got it. There's an instinct that comes with being able to feel pressure and get away from it. Grossman doesn't have it. Or if he does, he's not showing it.

 

Pep Hamilton had him sliding to the right the entire off season trying to "teach" him how to move. The only thing it did was cause him to step into the arms of the defensive end when they brought pressure from the outside.

 

He could become a game manager. Dump it off. Lots of short passes. But the truth is that unless he gets perfect protection, he's not going to be able to hang in the pocket and run Turner's system. I'm not sure why the Bears think he can but here's hoping they're right. The entire league seems to disagree.

 

Tom S.

 

Grossman doesn't have that good internal clock. I would rather see him just throw it away half the time instead of forcing it. That would seriously solve a lot of his issues. Also, they need to do more quick sets and 3 step drops with timing patterns. He gets in trouble when he is just sitting back there looking for the 3rd and 4th option. This has a lot to do with the receivers as well. Moose was not very good last year.

 

Like I said before, this is Grossman's last shot with the Bears. He has a one year tryout, and if he can come in and be a league average QB with some consistency, he will stick around. If not, he will not be on the Bears in 2009.

[DrunkBomber]

I'm not sure where that number came from but his 2007 QB rating was 66.4. I don't think his rating has ever been above 75 even in his best year. Here's the link where I got the numbers:

 

http://www.chicagobears.com/team/player32.html#career_stats

 

Look I'm not saying the guy is done. It's never over till its over. Its just that I don't think he's got it. There's an instinct that comes with being able to feel pressure and get away from it. Grossman doesn't have it. Or if he does, he's not showing it.

 

Pep Hamilton had him sliding to the right the entire off season trying to "teach" him how to move. The only thing it did was cause him to step into the arms of the defensive end when they brought pressure from the outside.

 

He could become a game manager. Dump it off. Lots of short passes. But the truth is that unless he gets perfect protection, he's not going to be able to hang in the pocket and run Turner's system. I'm not sure why the Bears think he can but here's hoping they're right. The entire league seems to disagree.

 

Tom S.

88.8 was his rating for the 3.5 games he played the end of the year. You know, after he was figured out.

[Mongo3451]

88.8 was his rating for the 3.5 games he played the end of the year. You know, after he was figured out.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then...

[DrunkBomber]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then...

I guess I never thought about it like that. We might as well lock this thread because I think the case has been closed.

 

When asked about a statistic, the response about a blind squirrel finding nuts every once in a while is the explanation...

[azbearsfan]

I didn't say Kyle was that much better than Rex. I said I'd take Kyle hands down. IMO - Kyle is a gamer and Rex is not. Rex had the full benefit of an offense tailored for his skills and the #1 reps at training camp. Kyle got 3rd string reps and no tailoring for his skill set. Kyle went 2-1 with a lineup and scheme built for Rex, without the benefit of a lot of practice time. I also don't forget his accomplishments his rookie season. Sure it was the defense that won a lot of games, but the rookie came in and kept his cool didn't lose games for us all while being thrown under the bus by his high priced veteren #1 reciever.

 

IMO - Orton just has more sack than Rex. I simply want football players on this team. He doesn't fumble, he has better pocket awareness, he's not afraid to get hit in the teeth and finds a way to make plays when it counts. Orton has NEVER same support/opprtunity Rex has had. He ain't much better, be better just enough IMO.

 

What plays has he made???

 

IMO when he came in last year he didn't look great to me. He was wildly inaccurate, bouncing passes to wide open receivers. Again there is NO way you can logically say, with facts, Kyle is better than Rex. At best they are comparable.

 

Your support for Kyle being so much better is your feeling about sack and squirrel nuts.

 

The simple reason Kyle is not the starter is he hasn't played well enough to earn it. You say he hasn't been given the same opportunity, yet I seem to remember him starting after rex got hurt in 2005. And he started last year. And didn't tear it up.

 

 

And Tom I refuse to believe that Angelo and Lovie would start Rex over Orton if Orton outplays him. Those guys want to win too. They absolutely will not do this.

 

Again if Kyle outplays Rex then great, but it absolutely hasn't happened yet.

[DrunkBomber]

What plays has he made???

 

IMO when he came in last year he didn't look great to me. He was wildly inaccurate, bouncing passes to wide open receivers. Again there is NO way you can logically say, with facts, Kyle is better than Rex. At best they are comparable.

 

Your support for Kyle being so much better is your feeling about sack and squirrel nuts.

 

The simple reason Kyle is not the starter is he hasn't played well enough to earn it. You say he hasn't been given the same opportunity, yet I seem to remember him starting after rex got hurt in 2005. And he started last year. And didn't tear it up.

 

 

And Tom I refuse to believe that Angelo and Lovie would start Rex over Orton if Orton outplays him. Those guys want to win too. They absolutely will not do this.

 

Again if Kyle outplays Rex then great, but it absolutely hasn't happened yet.

Thats what I was trying to get at too. Its one thing if people say they dont like him and they think Orton will be better, but there certainly any kind of proof to back it up.

[azbearsfan]

Thats what I was trying to get at too. Its one thing if people say they dont like him and they think Orton will be better, but there certainly any kind of proof to back it up.

 

 

I hear ya man. Its just this thing with alot of Bears fans. They pick a guy and ride him to death. Has Rex been outstanding? At times he has. But people have very selective memories.

 

Same thing with Ced. Before last year he looked great. He had burst and powerand was the next big thing, but all of a sudden one year and one crappy line later he never had any talent and is the worst player in the world.

 

I'm not saying Rex and Ced are all stars, but facts are facts. They are not the terrible players people make them out to be. They are not Edgar Bennett and Jon Quinn.

[Pixote]

I hear ya man. Its just this thing with alot of Bears fans. They pick a guy and ride him to death. Has Rex been outstanding? At times he has. But people have very selective memories.

 

Same thing with Ced. Before last year he looked great. He had burst and powerand was the next big thing, but all of a sudden one year and one crappy line later he never had any talent and is the worst player in the world.

 

I'm not saying Rex and Ced are all stars, but facts are facts. They are not the terrible players people make them out to be. They are not Edgar Bennett and Jon Quinn.

 

Gotta agree, If our OL plays average or better than average this year, (I feel last year they were one of the worst in the league) and Rex & Ced still play like crap, then I will give up on them. Until then, as far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on both of them. It is hard to see a receiver laying on your back or looking out your helmet's ear hole. It is hard to hit the hole as a RB when a defensive player is standing 5 yards in your backfield ready to shake your hand as you are handed the ball.

[DrunkBomber]

The way I look at it every offensive skill player deserves a chance to redeem themselves because of how terrible the offensive line played. With how bad the WRs have been its hard to know what we have at QB also. Its not easy to play QB for a team that doesnt block well, has tons of drops and doesnt have the threat of a running game.

 

Ive brought it up in the past about how a young QB like either of ours needs a security blanket, check down target which we havent had. People complain about forcing throws but theres not a whole lot you can do besides that or take a sack when you have no blocking and WRs that get zero separation from the defense. If the WRs are never open, youre gonna have to force some throws or you simply have no chance of moving the ball. Also, not one of our WRs ever does anything to help prevent ints. Watch what Randy Moss does if Brady over throws him and it should be an easy int. He turns into a defender and knocks the ball down and has even gone to the point of interfering to save his team the int. Thats a big luxury and having someone that does that is why a guy like Tom Brady can afford to take extra chances.

[madlithuanian]

Great points Tom...

 

I was going to state the old Mark Twain comment..."There are lies, damn lies, and statistics..." Which I think still holds true...but I just couldn't remember Rex having that high of a rating.

 

He has been figured out. Granted, all QB's tend to make some mistakes when pressured. However, Rex makes the enormous blunders, whereas a Manning or Brady will make small errors.

 

I really hope Kyle gets the nod and we can finally see what he can do after a few years leaning and being with the first team.

 

I'm not sure where that number came from but his 2007 QB rating was 66.4. I don't think his rating has ever been above 75 even in his best year. Here's the link where I got the numbers:

 

http://www.chicagobears.com/team/player32.html#career_stats

 

Look I'm not saying the guy is done. It's never over till its over. Its just that I don't think he's got it. There's an instinct that comes with being able to feel pressure and get away from it. Grossman doesn't have it. Or if he does, he's not showing it.

 

Pep Hamilton had him sliding to the right the entire off season trying to "teach" him how to move. The only thing it did was cause him to step into the arms of the defensive end when they brought pressure from the outside.

 

He could become a game manager. Dump it off. Lots of short passes. But the truth is that unless he gets perfect protection, he's not going to be able to hang in the pocket and run Turner's system. I'm not sure why the Bears think he can but here's hoping they're right. The entire league seems to disagree.

 

Tom S.

[madlithuanian]

You're skewing the information population too much...

 

Those are some pretty heavy assumptions that he will be as good as those games... Especially given the competition we played and the thought that we were a dead and buried team that no one got "up" for to play anymore that season...

 

88.8 was his rating for the 3.5 games he played the end of the year. You know, after he was figured out.

[madlithuanian]

Sorry fellas...I'm just not seeing it. I feel liike this is Deja Vu... We really want our starters to be great. We always do...it's just that these guys aren't. Rex and Ced have shown me enough in my close to 40 years on this earth, that I know they will not be great.

 

Orton, also hasn't necessarily shown me that he can be great. But, nor have I seen him with the first team with full practice,etc... I would really like to give him the opportunity to see wha he can do on Sunday's given full practice,etc... While Orton hasn't lit it up...he certianly hasn't blown it. We like calling him a manager...but isn't that kind of what's needed? Let's move the chains, eliminate the dumb errors and get Gould in place to score. Every now and then the running game will talke one in, Hester will take one in or a deep bomb will be hit. But this team right now is a nickel and dime offense... Rex give you the sterotypical HR hitter. He can hit the bomb, but more often than not he's going to stike out...and he seem to do so at the moment you need a single the most.

 

Gotta agree, If our OL plays average or better than average this year, (I feel last year they were one of the worst in the league) and Rex & Ced still play like crap, then I will give up on them. Until then, as far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on both of them. It is hard to see a receiver laying on your back or looking out your helmet's ear hole. It is hard to hit the hole as a RB when a defensive player is standing 5 yards in your backfield ready to shake your hand as you are handed the ball.

[GakMan23]

I'm not sure where you get that Orton is much better than Rex. Their numbers are comparable and when Orton finally got to play last year I was really expecting more. His accuracy was trash with him bouncing balls like some rookie.

 

There is just no way you can say that Orton is so much better at QB than Rex. Personally I just hope one of them figures it out. If they dont I would rather watch Hanie or Hill to just watch someone new.

 

 

Don't forget to take into account the weather in the Packer game, where Orton outplayed Brett Favre.

[DrunkBomber]

You're skewing the information population too much...

 

Those are some pretty heavy assumptions that he will be as good as those games... Especially given the competition we played and the thought that we were a dead and buried team that no one got "up" for to play anymore that season...

Thats not skewing the information at all. Im not selecting certain games and only using them as evidence. I never said Rex was good the whole season, I said he looked good when he came back and thats why I used the numbers. When Orton played 3 games and Grossman played 3.5 at the end of the season with pretty much the same guys around them I think thats the best way to evaluate who did what. Im a big Grossman fan but I agreed when they benched him last year, I didnt think he was playing well. While he was sitting for a few games all anyone was talking about what they wanted Rex to do, what his flaws were and why he wasnt successful. Then, when he comes back in during the Oakland game he played extremely well up until he got hurt in Washington. He did exactly what people wanted him to do since day 1 and a good way to show it was with his rating during those games. You guys just keep saying he sucks because you dont like him but you know damn well he was playing much better when he came back at the end of the year.

 

Also, since you guys have this one trick pony/fluke idea. Explain why he became better at the end of the year? If he was figured out and defenses knew how to shut him down, how come he became more productive later in the season? Did it cross any of your minds that maybe he also made adjustments or maybe the game slowed down for him a bit? Of course you wont consider that because he "sucks" so bad but think about how stupid it sounds to say that defenses knew how to stop him but then try to throw out that his production increased at the end of the season. Thats why that 88.8 rating is important and I used it because if what you guys were saying is true his rating would have stayed the same or even gotten worse.

[Da Bears 88]

C'mon DB, you should know better.

Rex is done and Orton is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[DrunkBomber]

C'mon DB, you should know better.

Rex is done and Orton is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

That might be your opinion, but you have to realize that there are experts here that bring up a good point. Grossman has been figured out since the second half of the Super Bowl year and hes a one trick pony, and that, and that alone proves why Grossmans qb rating got significantly better at the end of the season. It might not make sense to a casual fan but the experts get it. One expert went as far as to say that it also isnt a fair comparison between Grossman and Orton because Grossman had Benson as his running back.

[Da Bears 88]

Sure, i wish Rex was hell of alot better. If he'd just cut down on his INT's and fumbles.

 

He needs to quit making silly mistakes over and over.

 

Whether he finally does that this year, remains to be seen, again.

 

But, you've seen what this guy can do when he's on his "A" game.

 

He can be a damn good QB.

 

As for Orton, i don't get why people actually think this guy is good.

 

The man is a backup QB at best.

[GakMan23]

Sure, i wish Rex was hell of alot better. If he'd just cut down on his INT's and fumbles.

 

He needs to quit making silly mistakes over and over.

 

Whether he finally does that this year, remains to be seen, again.

 

But, you've seen what this guy can do when he's on his "A" game.

 

He can be a damn good QB.

 

As for Orton, i don't get why people actually think this guy is good.

 

The man is a backup QB at best.

 

 

Orton is a backup based on what? He hasn't been given a fair shake were Grossman has been spoonfed the first team. I think most people on here would love to have EITHER of them succeed. The problem I believe most have is that Orton hasn't been given an equal opportunity to succeed for whatever reason and they want to see him given an equal opportunity to prove he is an NFL caliber QB. I know I sure have noticed he has alot better pocket presense the Grossman as far as stepping up into the pocket to avoid sacks.

[madlithuanian]

You are unfairly comparing Rex to Orton. Rex was annointed the starter all through camp and virtually all the regular season. Even when Griese got the nod, Orton was still toiling away with the 2nd team at best. That does make a difference.

 

When Orton got in on the first game, he sure looked rusty as all hell. It wasn't a good game. However, after that, he got his bearings and started to do OK. He made a few bad passes...but they hit the dirt and not D-Backs' hands.

 

Before they benched him, Rex was playing hideously! It was a joke in my opinion. They gave him enough rope to hang himself...and the cast of "Lord of the Rings". At least they finally did sit him. He did do well agasint Oakland...but who didn't last season? I don't want to detract that Rex did look better...but I have learned enough from him that I don't trust those 3 games as a harbringer of what's to come.

 

I don't keep saying he sucks because I don't like him. I keep saying he sucks because he sucks. And for the record, I actually like the guy! I'd love to have a beer with him! He seems like a great kid. Hard worker, well spoken...etc. I just don't want him QB'ing my club. Bluntly, Rex is not an NFL calibur QB. Sure, he's better than the parade of fools this franchise has lined up...but that's just an embarassment of epic proportions. We'd be the laughing stock of the league if we didn't have our D.

 

OK, to add credence to the assessment of him being a one trick pony...yeah...he looked good. FOR 3 GAMES! A season is 16. And the 3 teams he played weren't exactly against primo competition. He came in in Oakland and help defeat a horrid Raiders team. In Seattle...we lost. Agasint Denver, we won...but Rex only threw a 3 yard TD pass that probably could have easily been run in. Not to mention more Hester heroics and a game winning FG by Gould. We lost to the Giants. Then he left in the 1st agaisnt the Skins. This is who we're relying on? Sorry, but I am not satisfied. At least with Orton, there's some spring of hope that he can rise above. With Rex, we already know what we have. Or at least some of us do.

 

Also, please keep in mind, that regardless of what us Bears fans think...the rest of the league looked at us as a freakin' joke. You think they got geeked up to play us like they did with Indy or NE? No. In those instances, sleeping dogs should be left well alone. But the moment Rex is annointed the starter and has actual pressure to win...he usually messes up gloriously.

 

You can hold onto that 88 number all you want...because it will be a small blip on the radar of yet another Bear's failure at QB.

 

I'd say place my crow in the fridge, because I'll eat it if I'm wrong. But, please throw it in the freezer, because odds are it won't be needed.

 

 

 

Thats not skewing the information at all. Im not selecting certain games and only using them as evidence. I never said Rex was good the whole season, I said he looked good when he came back and thats why I used the numbers. When Orton played 3 games and Grossman played 3.5 at the end of the season with pretty much the same guys around them I think thats the best way to evaluate who did what. Im a big Grossman fan but I agreed when they benched him last year, I didnt think he was playing well. While he was sitting for a few games all anyone was talking about what they wanted Rex to do, what his flaws were and why he wasnt successful. Then, when he comes back in during the Oakland game he played extremely well up until he got hurt in Washington. He did exactly what people wanted him to do since day 1 and a good way to show it was with his rating during those games. You guys just keep saying he sucks because you dont like him but you know damn well he was playing much better when he came back at the end of the year.

 

Also, since you guys have this one trick pony/fluke idea. Explain why he became better at the end of the year? If he was figured out and defenses knew how to shut him down, how come he became more productive later in the season? Did it cross any of your minds that maybe he also made adjustments or maybe the game slowed down for him a bit? Of course you wont consider that because he "sucks" so bad but think about how stupid it sounds to say that defenses knew how to stop him but then try to throw out that his production increased at the end of the season. Thats why that 88.8 rating is important and I used it because if what you guys were saying is true his rating would have stayed the same or even gotten worse.

[madlithuanian]

Gakman,

 

I think you are spot on...

 

 

 

Orton is a backup based on what? He hasn't been given a fair shake were Grossman has been spoonfed the first team. I think most people on here would love to have EITHER of them succeed. The problem I believe most have is that Orton hasn't been given an equal opportunity to succeed for whatever reason and they want to see him given an equal opportunity to prove he is an NFL caliber QB. I know I sure have noticed he has alot better pocket presense the Grossman as far as stepping up into the pocket to avoid sacks.

[DrunkBomber]

You are unfairly comparing Rex to Orton. Rex was annointed the starter all through camp and virtually all the regular season. Even when Griese got the nod, Orton was still toiling away with the 2nd team at best. That does make a difference.

 

When Orton got in on the first game, he sure looked rusty as all hell. It wasn't a good game. However, after that, he got his bearings and started to do OK. He made a few bad passes...but they hit the dirt and not D-Backs' hands.

 

Before they benched him, Rex was playing hideously! It was a joke in my opinion. They gave him enough rope to hang himself...and the cast of "Lord of the Rings". At least they finally did sit him. He did do well agasint Oakland...but who didn't last season? I don't want to detract that Rex did look better...but I have learned enough from him that I don't trust those 3 games as a harbringer of what's to come.

 

I don't keep saying he sucks because I don't like him. I keep saying he sucks because he sucks. And for the record, I actually like the guy! I'd love to have a beer with him! He seems like a great kid. Hard worker, well spoken...etc. I just don't want him QB'ing my club. Bluntly, Rex is not an NFL calibur QB. Sure, he's better than the parade of fools this franchise has lined up...but that's just an embarassment of epic proportions. We'd be the laughing stock of the league if we didn't have our D.

 

OK, to add credence to the assessment of him being a one trick pony...yeah...he looked good. FOR 3 GAMES! A season is 16. And the 3 teams he played weren't exactly against primo competition. He came in in Oakland and help defeat a horrid Raiders team. In Seattle...we lost. Agasint Denver, we won...but Rex only threw a 3 yard TD pass that probably could have easily been run in. Not to mention more Hester heroics and a game winning FG by Gould. We lost to the Giants. Then he left in the 1st agaisnt the Skins. This is who we're relying on? Sorry, but I am not satisfied. At least with Orton, there's some spring of hope that he can rise above. With Rex, we already know what we have. Or at least some of us do.

 

Also, please keep in mind, that regardless of what us Bears fans think...the rest of the league looked at us as a freakin' joke. You think they got geeked up to play us like they did with Indy or NE? No. In those instances, sleeping dogs should be left well alone. But the moment Rex is annointed the starter and has actual pressure to win...he usually messes up gloriously.

 

You can hold onto that 88 number all you want...because it will be a small blip on the radar of yet another Bear's failure at QB.

 

I'd say place my crow in the fridge, because I'll eat it if I'm wrong. But, please throw it in the freezer, because odds are it won't be needed.

It sounds like we might be on the same page just flip flopped. I do agree Rex played terrible at the beginning of the year, but the reason I keep eluding to that 3.5 game stretch is because that was the last we saw of him. I woulnt be so optimistic if he just played well three games and then went back to old Rex. So his last three and half games played his highs werent as good as the first half of 06 but he was playing safer and more consistently which is what everyone wanted.

 

For the record I am very happy about the open competition and Im glad each guy gets their own shot to earn the job. Im also a fan of Orton and think he deserves his shot. Whoever gets the job I will be rooting for wholeheartedly and I think if the other skill guys perform and the line improves either one can have success. Just so you know, I wasnt the one bashing Orton anywhere either. I think he has starting potential.

[AZ54]

Trying to sum this up.

 

Orton played almost a full season as a starter his rookie year yet has never been given a chance to practice with the first string. Never given a chance to prove he could be a starter.

 

Rex sucked at the start of 2007 because teams have him figured out. Get pressure up the middle and he'll float the ball to your DB. Therefore he got benched. Passer rating at time of benching probably just above 50.

 

Griese came in and had a 75.7 passer rating but he was not the answer.

 

Rex comes back in and plays ok with only an 88.8 passer rating but he was not the answer.

 

Orton came in and sucked in his first game back but then settled down and played decently. Passer rating 73.5 and he is the answer. Of course during his three games he didn't get a fair shake from the coaches who did not have him practice with the first string?

 

I only want the best QB to win the competition even if it's Caleb Hanie. I think Grossman has proven more than Orton in terms of boom or bust. Orton has only taken the middle road and I've never seen anything from him that made me say sign him long term and nothing that made me say cut him now (ala Grossman). The way this argument is being setup on either side no matter who wins and starts game 1 the other side is going to cry foul.

[DrunkBomber]

Trying to sum this up.

 

Orton played almost a full season as a starter his rookie year yet has never been given a chance to practice with the first string. Never given a chance to prove he could be a starter.

 

Rex sucked at the start of 2007 because teams have him figured out. Get pressure up the middle and he'll float the ball to your DB. Therefore he got benched. Passer rating at time of benching probably just above 50.

 

Griese came in and had a 75.7 passer rating but he was not the answer.

 

Rex comes back in and plays ok with only an 88.8 passer rating but he was not the answer.

 

Orton came in and sucked in his first game back but then settled down and played decently. Passer rating 73.5 and he is the answer. Of course during his three games he didn't get a fair shake from the coaches who did not have him practice with the first string?

 

I only want the best QB to win the competition even if it's Caleb Hanie. I think Grossman has proven more than Orton in terms of boom or bust. Orton has only taken the middle road and I've never seen anything from him that made me say sign him long term and nothing that made me say cut him now (ala Grossman). The way this argument is being setup on either side no matter who wins and starts game 1 the other side is going to cry foul.

Thats a very good break down of the situation. Grossman may have gotten too many chances and Orton maybe not enough. Either way, according to the coaches, for the first time they are going into camp with a legitimate shot at winning the job which is the fair thing to do at this point. Had Grossman not played well at the end of the year, he would be gone and it more than likely would be Orton/Griese and a first or second round rookie qb. I think they both have the potential to succeed, I hope the players around them perform better next year.