Many Fans Don't Care About "Spygate". But They Should.

[tshanno]

http://chicagobearsfanforum.com/blog/?p=248

 

There is an old saying which everyone knows. It goes, “Curiosity killed the cat.” But there are times when I wonder if we football fans take this saying too far.

 

This was never more evident to me than when I heard other Bear fans comment on the ”Spygate” situation in New England. This seems to me to be a rich, multifaceted story that many fans should be interested in. But I often find that instead, quite a number of those I've talked to would rather see it die a quiet death, never to rear its head again.

 

The only thing I can figure is that many fans treat the NFL as a league as they do their own teams. Bear fans are often blind, mostly unknowingly, to the faults of the Bear players that hit the field because they simply want to see the team win and they don't want said players to not be allowed to help. Similarly, I think many fans don't really want to hear about the faults of the NFL largely because of self-interest. The NFL entertains them and they don't want to see the darker side of the game. So they blind themselves, saying that they are bored by a story like “Spygate” and never understanding the true source of that blindness.

 

I think that's a shame because there's a lot here that will allow the average fan to increase the depth of his or her understanding about what goes on in the league. Fans need to take advantage of every opportunity to do this because most are normally very restricted in terms of what they are allowed to see.

 

Nearly every fan gets nearly all of his or her information through the filter of the media. As most fans understand on some level, this means that the news we get is affected by the attitudes of and conditions surrounding the reporters who feed us.

 

And there in lies the first lesson in Spygate. The Boston Herald is now essentially retracting it's story that said Matt Walsh taped a Rams walk-through before Super Bowl XXXVI. The reporter, John Tomase, rushed the story. Fans should have suspected that there was something wrong when other papers failed to confirm the report (though they did propagate it). But more importantly, all fans need to be aware of the faults of the press whenever considering any information they get. As Matt Mosely put it on ESPN's hashmark's blog:

 

“We care about 'scoops' way more than our readers do. Contrary to what some people in our profession might think, most fans aren't charting who breaks the most stories. But when you get one wrong -- in this case horribly so -- it can break the trust you've established with readers.”

 

Its incredibly important to bear this in mind both for the reporter and the reader.

 

Given that this is the case, the more information the average fan gets about the league and its workings in order to use his or her own judgment the better. Right now if I had a criticism of the press and the way it is handling this story as it stand, its that they are down playing the evidence that other teams are cheating or have cheated in the past. Matt Walsh said in an interview to the New York Times:

 

“…there was one time that I was filming and another team had set up their third video guy right next to me in our stadium. And when our team was on defense, I looked over at him, and he was angling his camera toward our sideline. I didn’t ask him about it, because I was doing the same thing he was.”

 

Walsh told Arlen Specter that this team was the Jets (i.e. the team that filed the Spygate complaint in the first place). Jets head coach Eric Mangini learned the trade under Patriots head coach Bill Belichick. Belichick learned it under... Bill Parcells. Who here want to bet that Belichick was alone?

 

When I was a graduate student at the University of Missouri in the nineties, I went to a luncheon with a small group to meet then Tigers head coach Bob Stull. The Tigers were coming off a terrible loss to Texas A&M and Stull told us that after the game friend and A&M head coach R.C Slocum confessed that they had sent an assistant out to a previous game to record the signals and chart the plays. I don't remember the words “video tape” coming up and I'm sure Slocum was smart enough not to use them. But that coach did a heck of a job if he didn't use it. They knew every play Missouri had run that day as it was signaled in. Sound familiar? A&M's offensive line coach was now former Green Bay Packers coach Mike Sherman. Interested now, Bear fans? Anyone remember how “well prepared” those Green Bay teams were? I'm not saying out right that Sherman cheated. But a lot of things become clearer when put in the proper light. Information is the source of that light.

 

Bottom line is that as unattractive as the facts may seem, fans need to take every opportunity to learn the inner workings of the game they love. Only then can a greater understanding and depth of appreciation of what they see on the field be reached. Nobel-prize winning American playwright Eugene O'Neill once said, “If a person is to get the meaning of life he must learn to like the facts about himself - ugly as they may seem to his sentimental vanity - before he can learn the truth behind the facts. And the truth is never ugly.” Football and its fans are no different.

 

--

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.

- William G. McAdoo

[DrunkBomber]

I care about it as a fan of football, I just think weve reached a stalemate in what were going to find from here on out. We know what Walsh had to say and we know what was on the tapes now but it doesnt take us any further than the taping of the Jets signals and the Pats losing the 1st round pick. I do however think that Congress should have better things to do than this. They cant use the same excuse about this as they did with the steroids unless theyre worried that little kids are going to start stealing defensive signals from their friends.

[tshanno]

I do disagree. Once you find out who was involved with the Jets who knows what you'll find from them. Especially under oath.

 

As to Specter being involved all I can say is that the NFL is big business. Millions are wagered on games. Money is spent on jerseys and gear. Local advertisin dollars are spent on games and shows about the games. There's a large monetary difference for each team between winning and losing and a large emotional and monetary investment from the fans. If he feels it should be looked into, I have no problem with it. Of course, I really want to know the truth, too.

[DrunkBomber]

Im not saying it shouldnt be investigated or that its ok, I just dont think tax payers should have to pay for it. There are a lot of bigger issues in this country that should have a higher priority than if the Patriots are stealing defensive signals. If the NFL wants to pay for it thats one thing, but the tax payers shouldnt have to.

 

I dont think we will find out much more at this point. I think I might have a different opinion if this recent meeting ended differently but all that happened was we got to see the tapes and the Boston Herald apologized for printing false information about the Rams walkthrough. I just dont think there are any unopened doors that warrant continuing this.

[azbearsfan]

Disagree on some of that Tom.

 

Just because I am a Bears fan doesn't mean I dont recognize the faults of our players. I know the faults of every single one of our players. But I can still root for them because I am a fan of the team. Every player in the league has weaknesses and faults. If they didn't it would be a boring, robotic league.

 

The reason I dont give a crap about this is the commish has dealt with it already. Punishment has been handed out and unless something new that Wild Bill didnt admit to comes out, its a dead issue.

[tshanno]

Disagree on some of that Tom.

 

Just because I am a Bears fan doesn't mean I dont recognize the faults of our players. I know the faults of every single one of our players. But I can still root for them because I am a fan of the team. Every player in the league has weaknesses and faults. If they didn't it would be a boring, robotic league.

 

The reason I dont give a crap about this is the commish has dealt with it already. Punishment has been handed out and unless something new that Wild Bill didnt admit to comes out, its a dead issue.

 

Well, its been handed out to one team. What about the others? Who knows what a thorough investigation might turn up? I doubt very much that videotaping signals by one team is the extent of it.

 

I'm interested. the more that comes out, the more I know. That's important to me at least in an academic sense if nothing else.

 

Tom S.

[DrunkBomber]

Well, its been handed out to one team. What about the others? Who knows what a thorough investigation might turn up? I doubt very much that videotaping signals by one team is the extent of it.

 

I'm interested. the more that comes out, the more I know. That's important to me at least in an academic sense if nothing else.

 

Tom S.

Well if all the teams are doing it than it isnt really giving anyone a competitive edge. Either way, I dont remember if it passed or not, but if they have it where defensive players are allowed to have communication equipment in helmets than there wont be any defensive signals anyway.

 

We can go on a witch hunt because Im sure there are tons of things shady going on in the league but where will it stop. Popularity of the NFL is at an all time high and it has completely distanced itself as the most popular sport in this country. To be honest, I dont want the government getting involved in it. They have their hands on everything and theres always an agenda. I know one thing. I like football the way it is now, and theres no reason trying to go and make all kinds of changes because of this. If it aint broke...

[Lucky Luciano]

Well if all the teams are doing it than it isnt really giving anyone a competitive edge. Either way, I dont remember if it passed or not, but if they have it where defensive players are allowed to have communication equipment in helmets than there wont be any defensive signals anyway.

 

We can go on a witch hunt because Im sure there are tons of things shady going on in the league but where will it stop. Popularity of the NFL is at an all time high and it has completely distanced itself as the most popular sport in this country. To be honest, I dont want the government getting involved in it. They have their hands on everything and theres always an agenda. I know one thing. I like football the way it is now, and theres no reason trying to go and make all kinds of changes because of this. If it aint broke...

 

i have to strongly disagree. if it takes a "witch hunt" to legitimize this sport then so be it. otherwise we end up with either an exhibition like all star wrestling where it's predetermined the outcome ends it being called an actual sport, a league controlled by the gambling interests including organized crime and racketeering, or frankly baseball and it's decades of steroid use and problems with no control initiated by that idiot bud selig.

 

another thing... these franchises are closed corporations who most likely are getting federal, state, and local tax breaks and incentives NOT to mention the actual funding by local and state governments to build these new stadium complexes.

 

if baseball couldn't contain and control it's own interests what makes you think that the nfl can? where is the line drawn to keep sports legitimate?

 

is it ok to pay off ref officials who control the ebb and flow of the game?

 

is it ok for its players to use steroids and HGH to create a more dramatic edge scenario on the field?

 

is it ok for it's players and coaches to bet on nfl games?

 

is it ok to steal from each other in pro football to give you an advantage by electronically eavesdropping or recording other teams meetings or practices?

 

if so where does the bill of rights come into play? where does federal legislation step in and enforce it's rico acts and other laws on the books related to corporate espionage?

 

in my opinion congress has a duty to the public to get to the bottom of this even if the results turn out unfavorable for our bear franchise.

 

without rules that are enforced rigidly you have nothing in sports. it's just a sham.

[DrunkBomber]

i have to strongly disagree. if it takes a "witch hunt" to legitimize this sport then so be it. otherwise we end up with either an exhibition like all star wrestling where it's predetermined the outcome ends it being called an actual sport, a league controlled by the gambling interests including organized crime and racketeering, or frankly baseball and it's decades of steroid use and problems with no control initiated by that idiot bud selig.

 

another thing... these franchises are closed corporations who most likely are getting federal, state, and local tax breaks and incentives NOT to mention the actual funding by local and state governments to build these new stadium complexes.

 

if baseball couldn't contain and control it's own interests what makes you think that the nfl can? where is the line drawn to keep sports legitimate?

 

is it ok to pay off ref officials who control the ebb and flow of the game?

 

is it ok for its players to use steroids and HGH to create a more dramatic edge scenario on the field?

 

is it ok for it's players and coaches to bet on nfl games?

 

is it ok to steal from each other in pro football to give you an advantage by electronically eavesdropping or recording other teams meetings or practices?

 

if so where does the bill of rights come into play? where does federal legislation step in and enforce it's rico acts and other laws on the books related to corporate espionage?

 

in my opinion congress has a duty to the public to get to the bottom of this even if the results turn out unfavorable for our bear franchise.

 

without rules that are enforced rigidly you have nothing in sports. it's just a sham.

Give me a break, talk about trying to to exaggerate what I said and take it to the farthest extreme possible. Seriously, did I say anything about it being OK to pay off officials or to take steroids or to bet on games? Dont manipulate what I say in a poor effort to prove a point. I said that with all weve figured out about Spygate since the original punishment handed down by the commissioner is that the Patriots have game tapes with clips of defensive signals on them which was already known and is the same thing the original punishment is for. I also said I care about the integrity of the game but right now they dont even have an answer to what they would even be looking for, and that makes this a witch hunt.

 

Im all for what theyre doing with steroid testing and dont want players or coaches betting on games. My point is that unless there is something that warrants an investigation further I think Spygate is over and its a waste of time for the government to continue to tear through everything looking for something that they dont even know if it exists. I also said that I think when they start using communication equipment in defensive players helmets the whole problem of spygate will go away anyway.

[Lucky Luciano]

Give me a break, talk about trying to to exaggerate what I said and take it to the farthest extreme possible. Seriously, did I say anything about it being OK to pay off officials or to take steroids or to bet on games? Dont manipulate what I say in a poor effort to prove a point. I said that with all weve figured out about Spygate since the original punishment handed down by the commissioner is that the Patriots have game tapes with clips of defensive signals on them which was already known and is the same thing the original punishment is for. I also said I care about the integrity of the game but right now they dont even have an answer to what they would even be looking for, and that makes this a witch hunt.

 

Im all for what theyre doing with steroid testing and dont want players or coaches betting on games. My point is that unless there is something that warrants an investigation further I think Spygate is over and its a waste of time for the government to continue to tear through everything looking for something that they dont even know if it exists. I also said that I think when they start using communication equipment in defensive players helmets the whole problem of spygate will go away anyway.

 

give you a break??

 

maybe you should re-read my post. i never 'said you said' anything about my points at ALL!!!

 

i disagreed with your point of saying it is and was not important for congress to pursue this agenda and gave MY examples of why it SHOULD be or COULD be legitimately pursued.

 

YIKES!!!

[DrunkBomber]

i have to strongly disagree. if it takes a "witch hunt" to legitimize this sport then so be it. otherwise we end up with either an exhibition like all star wrestling where it's predetermined the outcome ends it being called an actual sport, a league controlled by the gambling interests including organized crime and racketeering, or frankly baseball and it's decades of steroid use and problems with no control initiated by that idiot bud selig.

 

another thing... these franchises are closed corporations who most likely are getting federal, state, and local tax breaks and incentives NOT to mention the actual funding by local and state governments to build these new stadium complexes.

 

if baseball couldn't contain and control it's own interests what makes you think that the nfl can? where is the line drawn to keep sports legitimate?

 

is it ok to pay off ref officials who control the ebb and flow of the game?

 

is it ok for its players to use steroids and HGH to create a more dramatic edge scenario on the field?

 

is it ok for it's players and coaches to bet on nfl games?

 

is it ok to steal from each other in pro football to give you an advantage by electronically eavesdropping or recording other teams meetings or practices?

 

if so where does the bill of rights come into play? where does federal legislation step in and enforce it's rico acts and other laws on the books related to corporate espionage?

 

in my opinion congress has a duty to the public to get to the bottom of this even if the results turn out unfavorable for our bear franchise.

 

without rules that are enforced rigidly you have nothing in sports. it's just a sham.

You threw these out in a response to my thread like I was saying we should let the NFL do anything they want and shouldnt have any rules. What relevance does that have to my post that you were quoting? Did I say anything about not enforcing rules or letting them do whatever they want? Or did I say that unless they have additional evidence I think its a waste of time to continue the investigation? Thats a big difference.

 

Out of curiosity, what grounds do you think the government has to continue an investigation? What SPECIFICALLY would they be looking for? Unless theres an answer to that very important question, a witch hunt is exactly what that would be. So, if there was any other evidence that hasnt been debunked yet thats one thing, but if the government wants to just get involved because they were happy with the punishment, thats where I have a problem. The NFL is for fans, its not a playground for congress to go regulating.

 

So since you seem to think they should intervene, what exactly do you think they would be looking for? Do you think the NFL is at a state right now where we need the government to step in an police it because cheating is that big of a problem?

[DrunkBomber]

Also I just read in the other thread that Arlen Specter is an Eagles fan. I honestly think any Steelers, Eagles, Colts, Rams, Raiders or Chargers fans shouldnt be involved with this. We know damn well theyre biased on this specific incident.

[DrunkBomber]

Another reason why I think this is ridiculous. Im pretty sure a witch hunt is exactly what Specter is doing.

 

Comcast Cable is currently involved in a dispute with the NFL with regard to a cable deal concerning the NFL Network. [9] Arlen Specter has taken $153,600 in campaign contributions from Comcast or those affiliated with Comcast as employees or through its PAC. The only firm which has given more money to Specter is the law firm Blank Rome, LLP, which represents Comcast and which has given Specter $358,453 although the organization itself did not donate, rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. [10]. Arlen Specter has publicly declared that he would support legislation ending the NFL's anti-trust exemption, allowing local teams to negotiate their own cable contracts to the benefit of Comcast. [11] It appears that Specter may have violated the code of ethics for senators because of the link between his two largest donors and his attack on the NFL. [12]. February 1, 2008, the commissioner stated that the Tapes were destroyed because "they confirmed what I already knew about the issue." Bill Belichick, the team's coach, refused to respond from Glendale, Arizona, the site of Super Bowl XLII, stating "It is a league issue. I know nothing about it."

 

Specter has had a long history of battles with the NFL. In November 2005, he sought to have the Philadelphia Eagles and the NFL investigated for violation of antitrust laws over their handling of Terrell Owens. [13] In December of 2007, he sought to have the law that allows the National Football League to sign lucrative television contracts on behalf of all 32 teams repealed. [14] In February 2008, he sought to have religious organizations declared exempt from NFL copyright laws.

 

So between Comcast, who is currently in a lawsuit with the NFL, being his biggest campaign contributer and his interest in the religious organizations and how they handle copyright laws. Ya, I would have to say I dont want this guy doing anything that has to do with the NFL. He obviously has an agenda.

[BigDaddy]

As a football fan, I care alot about the integrity of the game but as a realist, I care more about what I spend my time worrying about. The truth is, The institution of football will lie, cheat, steal and anything else they have to do to make this go away. Roger Goodell proved that by destroying evidence he gathered in his investigation. HE wants this to go away and so do all the owners who were not openly affected by the spygate scandal. They do not want the image of football to be tarnished so they will ALL toe the company line to protect NE, Bellicheck and anyone else involved and they will somehow deal with it behind closed doors. It's simple really, if they don't care enough to FULLY investigate this thing, why the hell should I?

[madlithuanian]

I've cared about it as well ...since day one basically. I like fair competition. I think Goodell should have been tougher on the Pats/Billichik, but I'm OK with it at this point. The NFL needs to police itself. Congress should stay out. They F up too may things as is...and we have far bigger problems. If the NFl can't police themselves well enough, fans will leave the sport.

 

I care about it as a fan of football, I just think weve reached a stalemate in what were going to find from here on out. We know what Walsh had to say and we know what was on the tapes now but it doesnt take us any further than the taping of the Jets signals and the Pats losing the 1st round pick. I do however think that Congress should have better things to do than this. They cant use the same excuse about this as they did with the steroids unless theyre worried that little kids are going to start stealing defensive signals from their friends.

[madlithuanian]

I understand...but since when has govt made anything better? When they get involved things tend to go awry...

 

I think the NFl should police itslef. If the fans don't think they are doing a good enough job, they will go to other sports.

 

I do follow your point on gambling,etc...then the trade commission should be involved. But at this point, I think it's simple grandstanding.

 

I do disagree. Once you find out who was involved with the Jets who knows what you'll find from them. Especially under oath.

 

As to Specter being involved all I can say is that the NFL is big business. Millions are wagered on games. Money is spent on jerseys and gear. Local advertisin dollars are spent on games and shows about the games. There's a large monetary difference for each team between winning and losing and a large emotional and monetary investment from the fans. If he feels it should be looked into, I have no problem with it. Of course, I really want to know the truth, too.

[Lucky Luciano]

You threw these out in a response to my thread like I was saying we should let the NFL do anything they want and shouldnt have any rules. What relevance does that have to my post that you were quoting? Did I say anything about not enforcing rules or letting them do whatever they want? Or did I say that unless they have additional evidence I think its a waste of time to continue the investigation? Thats a big difference.

 

just for your paranoid information, i disagreed with your opinion as to whether congress should be involved in this and stated so. the rest of what i posted, that seemed to infurriate you, was MY reasons and thoughts as to why they SHOULD investigate in response to your post. it's a pretty novel concept, but people tend to do that sometimes on these message boards.

 

so unless you have different rules of communication than most normal people, some will make their own comments to justify THEIR opinions that may not be directly replying to your specific quotes and/OR inferring that "you said". amazing but true.

 

Out of curiosity, what grounds do you think the government has to continue an investigation? What SPECIFICALLY would they be looking for? Unless theres an answer to that very important question, a witch hunt is exactly what that would be. So, if there was any other evidence that hasnt been debunked yet thats one thing, but if the government wants to just get involved because they were happy with the punishment, thats where I have a problem. The NFL is for fans, its not a playground for congress to go regulating.

 

again i ask.... did you READ my original post??

 

anyway, here's an example: just so you know, this is my quote that WASN'T in reply to anything you previously said... "if so where does the bill of rights come into play? where does federal legislation step in and enforce it's rico acts and other laws on the books related to corporate espionage?"

 

the "important question" (your quote) would be if these nfl corporations were in violation of federal laws due to corporate espionage statutes AND to their ability to uphold the integrity of the nfl who garner federal tax breaks and incentives, not to mention the sales of bonds or local tax revenues to PAY for their venues.

 

that the nfl delegated it's own judgements along with penalties AND destroyed evidence is CERTAINLY cause for concern (my OPINION).

 

So since you seem to think they should intervene, what exactly do you think they would be looking for? Do you think the NFL is at a state right now where we need the government to step in an police it because cheating is that big of a problem?

 

in direct answer to YOUR question.... YES!!! i don't believe we should wait for the next 10 + years like baseball did to ensure a legitimate game. if one team is cheating who is to say others are not? are there OTHER ways that they are cheating also? sorry, but relying on the truth from corporations and people who are NOT under oath and risk the penalty of purjury and could be financially hurt by the truth is nonsense.

 

Also I just read in the other thread that Arlen Specter is an Eagles fan. I honestly think any Steelers, Eagles, Colts, Rams, Raiders or Chargers fans shouldnt be involved with this. We know damn well theyre biased on this specific incident.

 

every fan should be concerned no matter what team they root for. in fact every citizen in america should be concerned if their tax dollars are involved in ANY way.

[madlithuanian]

Lucky, please do not speak for my tax dollars. It's nice that you want them to do it, but I'm tired of paying my taxes and getting it all whizzed down the drain... Our hard earned tax dollars are seriously better spent elsewhere.

 

Have you been looking at the ecnomy lately?

 

I think the NFL is just fine right now...let's look at some real issues. Once we get those issues solved, then by all means, let's have a gander.

 

Until then, I'll just let ESPN get the goods...

 

just for your paranoid information, i disagreed with your opinion as to whether congress should be involved in this and stated so. the rest of what i posted, that seemed to infurriate you, was MY reasons and thoughts as to why they SHOULD investigate in response to your post. it's a pretty novel concept, but people tend to do that sometimes on these message boards.

 

so unless you have different rules of communication than most normal people, some will make their own comments to justify THEIR opinions that may not be directly replying to your specific quotes and/OR inferring that "you said". amazing but true.

 

 

 

again i ask.... did you READ my original post??

 

anyway, here's an example: just so you know, this is my quote that WASN'T in reply to anything you previously said... "if so where does the bill of rights come into play? where does federal legislation step in and enforce it's rico acts and other laws on the books related to corporate espionage?"

 

the "important question" (your quote) would be if these nfl corporations were in violation of federal laws due to corporate espionage statutes AND to their ability to uphold the integrity of the nfl who garner federal tax breaks and incentives, not to mention the sales of bonds or local tax revenues to PAY for their venues.

 

that the nfl delegated it's own judgements along with penalties AND destroyed evidence is CERTAINLY cause for concern (my OPINION).

 

 

 

in direct answer to YOUR question.... YES!!! i don't believe we should wait for the next 10 + years like baseball did to ensure a legitimate game. if one team is cheating who is to say others are not? are there OTHER ways that they are cheating also? sorry, but relying on the truth from corporations and people who are NOT under oath and risk the penalty of purjury and could be financially hurt by the truth is nonsense.

 

 

 

every fan should be concerned no matter what team they root for. in fact every citizen in america should be concerned if their tax dollars are involved in ANY way.

[Lucky Luciano]

Lucky, please do not speak for my tax dollars. It's nice that you want them to do it, but I'm tired of paying my taxes and getting it all whizzed down the drain... Our hard earned tax dollars are seriously better spent elsewhere.

 

Have you been looking at the ecnomy lately?

 

I think the NFL is just fine right now...let's look at some real issues. Once we get those issues solved, then by all means, let's have a gander.

 

Until then, I'll just let ESPN get the goods...

 

well... that may be fine for you and you are entitled to your opinion.

 

but, if i paid higher taxes to build a stadium for what i THINK/THOUGHT is a legitimate sport and that sport is manipulated by specific corporations to THEIR monetary advantage i wanna know and i wanna know NOW.

 

these are billion dollar corporations we are talking about. the bone that was thrown out there that there are bigger fish to fry than a manipulation of one of the largest money markets in this country is a bit nieve (sp).

[DrunkBomber]

just for your paranoid information, i disagreed with your opinion as to whether congress should be involved in this and stated so. the rest of what i posted, that seemed to infurriate you, was MY reasons and thoughts as to why they SHOULD investigate in response to your post. it's a pretty novel concept, but people tend to do that sometimes on these message boards.

 

so unless you have different rules of communication than most normal people, some will make their own comments to justify THEIR opinions that may not be directly replying to your specific quotes and/OR inferring that "you said". amazing but true.

 

 

 

again i ask.... did you READ my original post??

 

anyway, here's an example: just so you know, this is my quote that WASN'T in reply to anything you previously said... "if so where does the bill of rights come into play? where does federal legislation step in and enforce it's rico acts and other laws on the books related to corporate espionage?"

 

the "important question" (your quote) would be if these nfl corporations were in violation of federal laws due to corporate espionage statutes AND to their ability to uphold the integrity of the nfl who garner federal tax breaks and incentives, not to mention the sales of bonds or local tax revenues to PAY for their venues.

 

that the nfl delegated it's own judgements along with penalties AND destroyed evidence is CERTAINLY cause for concern (my OPINION).

 

 

 

in direct answer to YOUR question.... YES!!! i don't believe we should wait for the next 10 + years like baseball did to ensure a legitimate game. if one team is cheating who is to say others are not? are there OTHER ways that they are cheating also? sorry, but relying on the truth from corporations and people who are NOT under oath and risk the penalty of purjury and could be financially hurt by the truth is nonsense.

 

 

 

every fan should be concerned no matter what team they root for. in fact every citizen in america should be concerned if their tax dollars are involved in ANY way.

Did you read what I posted about Arlen Specter and his relationship with Comcast? Arlen Specter is the only person at all that is publicly asking for further investigation. The bulk of his financial backing for his campaign comes from Comcast who is currently going through a law suit with the NFL over the NFL Network. You dont think that might be a conflict of interest? The only sources in this story that are still seeking an investigation is this guy who gets money from a company in a lawsuit with the NFL and WAS the Boston Herald because they put false information in the paper about a Rams walk through. Maybe we should start letting Jay Marriotti decide what to have the government investigate if all it takes is a journalists to write a story about it with no evidence.

 

You keep telling me to refer to your original post but it doesnt answer a question I think is very important, so please just answer it now instead of dodging it. What evidence is there to justify the government to start an investigation and what exactly will they be looking for? You might want your tax dollars used this way but youre alone on this one. If they had a lead or any specific targets thats one thing, but to look "just in case" is an irresponsible use of tax dollars, especially because of the background of the man that is calling for it.

 

You cant do stuff like this on what if's because then it will never end. "What if" Peyton Manning is a robot that was sent back in time from John Conner to revolutionize the quarterback position in an attempt to get rich gambling in Vegas? We better look into that too, because we have the same amount of evidence to warrant an investigation on that possibility as we do to continue this one.

[DrunkBomber]

well... that may be fine for you and you are entitled to your opinion.

 

but, if i paid higher taxes to build a stadium for what i THINK/THOUGHT is a legitimate sport and that sport is manipulated by specific corporations to THEIR monetary advantage i wanna know and i wanna know NOW.

 

these are billion dollar corporations we are talking about. the bone that was thrown out there that there are bigger fish to fry than a manipulation of one of the largest money markets in this country is a bit nieve (sp).

What does this even mean? What does this have to do with looking for tapes of defensive signals? Since youre so concerned about big business's involvement in the NFL Im assuming you feel the same way about stadiums in regards to naming rights. Thats another example of companies making money on your tax dollars. How about exclusivity deals with certain beer or soft drink companies? Theyre making money on your tax dollars too.

 

How about the cable company that is in a lawsuit with the NFL that donated money to a senator and now all of a sudden that senator wants to open an investigation against the NFL? Cuz, thats not the cable company trying to make money off the NFL right?

 

The point were trying to make is, that with no proof of anything (which there isnt at this point) that it is irresponsible to have congress waste time and money on this when there are a lot bigger issues that should be addressed and that tax dollars should be allocated on. I also like that when someone says something about not wanting to spend their tax money on this, thats ok but thats only their OPINION, but for you its ok because you want your tax dollars used for it because you had to pay for the stadium with them. Well I hate to break it to you but you dont have any more say in what the money is spent on than me or madlith or anyone. Since, as the article stated, the vast majority of fans dont think its necessary to continue the investigation that puts you in the minority on this one.

 

/thread

[madlithuanian]

Well, I understand, but first and foremost, public funds should not be used to build these stadiums. It's really appaling in my opinion.

 

These billion dallar companies are being taxed and generating revenue for the country. Unless fraud is being levied on the public, they should leae well enough alone. So far, no one is going so far to say fraud. Until then, I think the govt should stay out.

 

well... that may be fine for you and you are entitled to your opinion.

 

but, if i paid higher taxes to build a stadium for what i THINK/THOUGHT is a legitimate sport and that sport is manipulated by specific corporations to THEIR monetary advantage i wanna know and i wanna know NOW.

 

these are billion dollar corporations we are talking about. the bone that was thrown out there that there are bigger fish to fry than a manipulation of one of the largest money markets in this country is a bit nieve (sp).

[Lucky Luciano]

Did you read what I posted about Arlen Specter and his relationship with Comcast? Arlen Specter is the only person at all that is publicly asking for further investigation. The bulk of his financial backing for his campaign comes from Comcast who is currently going through a law suit with the NFL over the NFL Network. You dont think that might be a conflict of interest? The only sources in this story that are still seeking an investigation is this guy who gets money from a company in a lawsuit with the NFL and WAS the Boston Herald because they put false information in the paper about a Rams walk through. Maybe we should start letting Jay Marriotti decide what to have the government investigate if all it takes is a journalists to write a story about it with no evidence.

 

yea i read it. so what? if congress was limited on who to investigate by which corporations give them campaign contributions they would never investigate anyone as corps contribute to nearly all candidates on both sides!! just for the record how many congressmen in your estimation does it take to 'ask' for further congressional investigations? 2? 5? 10? 100?

 

You keep telling me to refer to your original post but it doesnt answer a question I think is very important, so please just answer it now instead of dodging it. What evidence is there to justify the government to start an investigation and what exactly will they be looking for? You might want your tax dollars used this way but youre alone on this one. If they had a lead or any specific targets thats one thing, but to look "just in case" is an irresponsible use of tax dollars, especially because of the background of the man that is calling for it.

 

dodging it?? ok, let's get to the evidence...

 

how about "evidence" that was video taped?

 

how about "evidence" as stated by the perpetrators to journalists and the nfl investigators?

 

what are the looking for?

 

they should be looking for violations by ANY team that gave that team an unfair advantage and led to ANY victory or advantage over an opponent as it pertains to a violation of law. the results of which could/did cause the public, the city of origin and the franchise in case to lose, or possibly lose, millions of dollars in revenue.

 

what gives them the right to spend your tax dollars on a witch hunt you ask?

 

in case any are not aware, the federal government has granted the nfl federal anti trust law exemptions. that makes congress, legally, the watchdog and overseer of the nfl to be sure no federal laws are violated. the nfl would also be included in federal statutes (economic espionage act or the EEA) regarding corporate espionage laws and regulation violations. add to this the federal laws governing the sales of corporate stock and/or bonds by the nfl and it's subsidiaries at either the local, state, or national/international level and on top of that, the regulation of state or federal tax laws.

 

what has this to do with the price of tea in china you ask?

 

the concept of professional football is founded on public trust that the games will be regulated and legally fair to all parties involved INCLUDING the public. if there is doubt that the league operates in a fair and unbiassed manner it is not only the right, but the duty, of congress to do thorough investigations in an attempt to not only correct the problems but to determine if any laws have been violated. that a corporation would destroy all evidence of it's investigation could in itself be a crime, (obstruction of justice) if determined there was any violation of law.

 

just for the record... if anyone thinks a corporation should head the investigation of itself in a legal determination of violations of law they are surely misguided. it would be like taking the word of enron's skilling and lay that all is well and nothing is amiss but thanks for asking.

 

i would also like to add... if anyone in the know knew of these taped violations, who is to say this information couldn't have or actually WAS used in gambling, either by specific persons, companies or even organized crime, to enrich themselves? that in itself is racketeering!!!

 

You cant do stuff like this on what if's because then it will never end. "What if" Peyton Manning is a robot that was sent back in time from John Conner to revolutionize the quarterback position in an attempt to get rich gambling in Vegas? We better look into that too, because we have the same amount of evidence to warrant an investigation on that possibility as we do to continue this one.

 

what ifs?? how about 'if' the nfl had not destroyed the freakin HARD evidence and turned this over to review by our legal system to determine there were no violations of law, if asked to do so. the whole process would be dead now if they were squeaky clean. as it turns out we have to rely on the word of a corporate president whose company stands to possibly lose not only the faith and trust of the public but possibly MILLIONS of dollars in repercussions!!

[Lucky Luciano]

"well... that may be fine for you and you are entitled to your opinion.

 

but, if i paid higher taxes to build a stadium for what i THINK/THOUGHT is a legitimate sport and that sport is manipulated by specific corporations to THEIR monetary advantage i wanna know and i wanna know NOW.

 

these are billion dollar corporations we are talking about. the bone that was thrown out there that there are bigger fish to fry than a manipulation of one of the largest money markets in this country is a bit nieve (sp)."

 

What does this even mean? What does this have to do with looking for tapes of defensive signals? Since youre so concerned about big business's involvement in the NFL Im assuming you feel the same way about stadiums in regards to naming rights. Thats another example of companies making money on your tax dollars. How about exclusivity deals with certain beer or soft drink companies? Theyre making money on your tax dollars too.

 

what does it mean? it means that a specific franchise/s used possible ILLEGAL means to determine the outcome of NOT only a specific game but possibly an entire season!!! thereby possibly causing another franchise/s, its city, its state and its fans to lose millions upon millions of dollars in REVENUE!!!!!

 

isn't that enough in itself for you???

 

in not, then what if just one of those games determined whether another team made it to the playoffs? what if one of those games determined WHERE a playoff game was to be held? couldn't that also have shaped not only WHO went to the superbowl but who WON it????????

 

How about the cable company that is in a lawsuit with the NFL that donated money to a senator and now all of a sudden that senator wants to open an investigation against the NFL? Cuz, thats not the cable company trying to make money off the NFL right?

 

does this affirm my statements on anti-trust laws and federal regulation? if you don't think so, then why wouldn't it be declared to have a monopoly on it's televised rights and FORCED by federal law to break up this monopoly and give equal access? you can't have it both ways.

 

The point were trying to make is, that with no proof of anything (which there isnt at this point) that it is irresponsible to have congress waste time and money on this when there are a lot bigger issues that should be addressed and that tax dollars should be allocated on.

 

how can you DETERMINE proof of any violation of law without access to the EVIDENCE???? you seem to want to just believe whatever you are told by the corporate NFL as being gospel. kinda like baseball and their steroid debacle huh? why would anyone not believe selig about ANYTHING and call for investigation??

 

again i ask you.... if billion dollar corporations, that not only rely on the public trust but their funds to supplement paying for their stadiums, are manipulating the public, is that not enough for you to feel any concern or justification to investigate? if not, just what does?

 

I also like that when someone says something about not wanting to spend their tax money on this, thats ok but thats only their OPINION, but for you its ok because you want your tax dollars used for it because you had to pay for the stadium with them. Well I hate to break it to you but you dont have any more say in what the money is spent on than me or madlith or anyone. Since, as the article stated, the vast majority of fans dont think its necessary to continue the investigation that puts you in the minority on this one.

 

yea, that really makes sense. haven't i said NUMEROUS times that nearly this entire debate with you IS my opinion?????? what else could it be? you think i have the power to enact absolute law in this country?

 

if you don't like my opinion on it so what? nobody has a gun to your head forcing you to agree with me. you state your opinion, or facts if you have any, to back up your point and i will do the same. and just for the record... i don't need a majority to pat me on the back to HAVE an opinion.

[DrunkBomber]

yea i read it. so what? if congress was limited on who to investigate by which corporations give them campaign contributions they would never investigate anyone as corps contribute to nearly all candidates on both sides!! just for the record how many congressmen in your estimation does it take to 'ask' for further congressional investigations? 2? 5? 10? 100?

 

 

dodging it?? ok, let's get to the evidence...

 

how about "evidence" that was video taped?

 

how about "evidence" as stated by the perpetrators to journalists and the nfl investigators?

 

what are the looking for?

 

they should be looking for violations by ANY team that gave that team an unfair advantage and led to ANY victory or advantage over an opponent as it pertains to a violation of law. the results of which could/did cause the public, the city of origin and the franchise in case to lose, or possibly lose, millions of dollars in revenue.

 

what gives them the right to spend your tax dollars on a witch hunt you ask?

 

in case any are not aware, the federal government has granted the nfl federal anti trust law exemptions. that makes congress, legally, the watchdog and overseer of the nfl to be sure no federal laws are violated. the nfl would also be included in federal statutes (economic espionage act or the EEA) regarding corporate espionage laws and regulation violations. add to this the federal laws governing the sales of corporate stock and/or bonds by the nfl and it's subsidiaries at either the local, state, or national/international level and on top of that, the regulation of state or federal tax laws.

 

what has this to do with the price of tea in china you ask?

 

the concept of professional football is founded on public trust that the games will be regulated and legally fair to all parties involved INCLUDING the public. if there is doubt that the league operates in a fair and unbiassed manner it is not only the right, but the duty, of congress to do thorough investigations in an attempt to not only correct the problems but to determine if any laws have been violated. that a corporation would destroy all evidence of it's investigation could in itself be a crime, (obstruction of justice) if determined there was any violation of law.

 

just for the record... if anyone thinks a corporation should head the investigation of itself in a legal determination of violations of law they are surely misguided. it would be like taking the word of enron's skilling and lay that all is well and nothing is amiss but thanks for asking.

 

i would also like to add... if anyone in the know knew of these taped violations, who is to say this information couldn't have or actually WAS used in gambling, either by specific persons, companies or even organized crime, to enrich themselves? that in itself is racketeering!!!

 

 

 

what ifs?? how about 'if' the nfl had not destroyed the freakin HARD evidence and turned this over to review by our legal system to determine there were no violations of law, if asked to do so. the whole process would be dead now if they were squeaky clean. as it turns out we have to rely on the word of a corporate president whose company stands to possibly lose not only the faith and trust of the public but possibly MILLIONS of dollars in repercussions!!

I get it. Sorry about the misunderstanding but I thought you were being serious in this thread but you were just joking, thats a relief, I was hoping this wasnt for real. You had me going but then I realized there is no way a person that has at least figured out how to turn on a computer would actually try to compare this to Enron. Theres especially no way anyone would say that congress has the right to interfere when federal laws are being broken and actually believe any federal laws were broken. Also, no reasonable human being would think that theres obstruction of justice going on here when there was no justice being exercised, because how can you obstruct something that doesnt exist.

 

Thats a relief, so unless I receive something in terms of a point that isnt so ridiculous that it would draw laughter from 99% of the population (1% for Arlen Specter) than I will continue to assume you accidentally forgot to post in green.