The D didn't like Ced...

[madlithuanian]

By the way...the career stats are as follows from NFL.com:

 

Benson - Rush YPC 3.8, Rec RPC 6.9, 10TD's, 4 Fumbles

Peterson - Rush YPC 3.7, Rec RPC 8.7, 8 TD's, 2 Fumbles

 

Benson doesn't look a whole heck of a lot better than Peterson.... In fact the receiption numbers are better for AP, and the fumbles are lower.

 

 

 

BUt it is about Benson...

 

That's why we're having a hard time following you I think.

 

I think you're falling into the trap of over-simplifying it. The reports do vary a bit...but overall, the gyst is that numerous defenders tried to give Benson extra hard hits because they did not like him. You've got to think it was more than he was just an a-hole. It was probably his attitude, his ethic, his performance in practice, their respect for the solid guy he's trying to unseat,etc... All of that.

 

I do agree, it's not the D's job to hurt a team-mate. Yes, in the true sense, what they did was inherently wrong. If it were actually found true, they should have been penalized by the team. But, there's not much way to prove it other than a fess up. To me, it's not much different than guys taking a few swings at one another in practice. As long as nothing was done dirty, just take your lumps.

 

Again, I think you're throwing Brown in a "cheap shot" category unfairly. You know none of this being true for certain, yet keep labeling Brown a cheap shot artist. I think that's unfair. You may attempt to label him a mean and nasty team-mate, but there was never any mention by anyone that cheap shots were taken.

 

How exactly is Benson better than AP? Can you show me your validation of such? Better YPC? More TD's? Less injuries? More tackles? Better pancakes?

[nfoligno]

No question AP is a better receiver, but I would also say Benson is the better RB, and not simply based on where he was drafted.

 

You use stats, but I am not sure how good of a source that is to use. So many times, I saw AP break off nice runs, but they were 3rd and 10 situations, where the defense is backed off. If he gets 8 yards, so what. The result is still a punt. Benson didn't get these easy carry situations. When he ran the ball, defenses knew he was running, and the box was stacked.

 

Personally, I have never understood the love fest for AP. He is a great special teams player, but a year ago, many posters talked about how he could start for some other teams in the NFL. I didn't buy that then, or now.

 

There is MORE than enough to question Benson, but I do believe he is the better pure runner than AP.

[madlithuanian]

I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate here to an extent. I'm not a huge fan of AP's, other than his positive attitude, ST ability and change of pace ability...

 

I also do wonder if he got the same amount of carries as Benson, would his numbers improve? I know AP certainly had that a bit last year and did decently.

 

Benson could be a better pure runner...when not injured and fumbling. Which both instances seem to happen more than most would prefer. Therefore, I'll take AP... The falloff I don't think is big enough to warrent having a problem child on your roster sans DUIs or not.

 

No question AP is a better receiver, but I would also say Benson is the better RB, and not simply based on where he was drafted.

 

You use stats, but I am not sure how good of a source that is to use. So many times, I saw AP break off nice runs, but they were 3rd and 10 situations, where the defense is backed off. If he gets 8 yards, so what. The result is still a punt. Benson didn't get these easy carry situations. When he ran the ball, defenses knew he was running, and the box was stacked.

 

Personally, I have never understood the love fest for AP. He is a great special teams player, but a year ago, many posters talked about how he could start for some other teams in the NFL. I didn't buy that then, or now.

 

There is MORE than enough to question Benson, but I do believe he is the better pure runner than AP.

[DrunkBomber]

Benson is absolutely a better runner than AP. I dont think anyone is contesting that. AP is a better overall back though. Either way, its scary that a career third string RB is number one on the depth chart but losing Benson is addition by subtraction.

[madlithuanian]

It is scary...

 

But no scarier than our QB situation.

 

Or our WR situation.

 

Or our OL situation.

 

Or our offesnive coaching situation.

 

 

Benson is absolutely a better runner than AP. I dont think anyone is contesting that. AP is a better overall back though. Either way, its scary that a career third string RB is number one on the depth chart but losing Benson is addition by subtraction.

[nfoligno]

You like stats. Here are some to consider from this past year.

 

AP had 46 carries in 3 WR sets and 11 in 4+. Benson had only 16 carries out of 3 WR sets, and 6 from 4+. So we spread out the defense more when we ran AP, and boxed it in more w/ Benson.

 

Also found, looking at our stats, we did FAR better running to the right than the left. AP was 3.8 ypc from the right v 2.9 from the left. Benson was 4.9 v 2.6. Sort of makes you wonder why we didn't run to the right more than we did.

 

Looking at the splits, the key reason why AP has ypc numbers as good or better than Benson is because he had more 2nd and long and 3rd and long (passing situation) carries, which he did better. Benson simply was not getting the ball in those passing down situations, which prevented his ypc from getting a boost.

 

I would compare this to a DE sack stats. The guy who gets to play on passing downs is more likely to have more sacks, v the guy who simply plays run downs.

 

You can blame Benson by saying if he were a better all around back, he would have been on the field more for passing downs, but I still blame Turner. AP was no better of a blocker than Benson, who was nothing special himself, and I saw no reason to replace Benson w/ AP on those downs. Point is though, if we used Benson more when we spread out the defense (more WR) or when it wasn't obvious we were going to run, his ypc may have risen, just like APs did.

 

I understand cutting Benson, but I do not buy that AP is as good or better.

[nfoligno]

Again, don't get me wrong. I understand cutting him. I simply do not buy that we are just as well off not having him, at least not in terms of talent. His release was about his "issues" and not talent. If not for the issues, I simply do not think there would be a question of him over AP.

[madlithuanian]

I guess I just never thought much of him this past season and currently... Granted, we're in a tough spot at the moment, but I also think there will probably be another guy brought in. Even without that, I'm totally OK with Forte, Wolfe, Peterson...I think you and I are are somewhat on the same page that our expectations are tempered for this season. Let's see what we finally have in Wolfe and now in Forte.

 

Again, don't get me wrong. I understand cutting him. I simply do not buy that we are just as well off not having him, at least not in terms of talent. His release was about his "issues" and not talent. If not for the issues, I simply do not think there would be a question of him over AP.

[madlithuanian]

I think those stats are more damning of our coaches than anything else!

 

And I will back off on saying AP is as good as Benson. Fine, Benson is a better pure runner. But I could care less. He's not a Bear. And I'll argue he never was.

 

But throwing Turner under the bus will always get an agreement from me!

 

You like stats. Here are some to consider from this past year.

 

AP had 46 carries in 3 WR sets and 11 in 4+. Benson had only 16 carries out of 3 WR sets, and 6 from 4+. So we spread out the defense more when we ran AP, and boxed it in more w/ Benson.

 

Also found, looking at our stats, we did FAR better running to the right than the left. AP was 3.8 ypc from the right v 2.9 from the left. Benson was 4.9 v 2.6. Sort of makes you wonder why we didn't run to the right more than we did.

 

Looking at the splits, the key reason why AP has ypc numbers as good or better than Benson is because he had more 2nd and long and 3rd and long (passing situation) carries, which he did better. Benson simply was not getting the ball in those passing down situations, which prevented his ypc from getting a boost.

 

I would compare this to a DE sack stats. The guy who gets to play on passing downs is more likely to have more sacks, v the guy who simply plays run downs.

 

You can blame Benson by saying if he were a better all around back, he would have been on the field more for passing downs, but I still blame Turner. AP was no better of a blocker than Benson, who was nothing special himself, and I saw no reason to replace Benson w/ AP on those downs. Point is though, if we used Benson more when we spread out the defense (more WR) or when it wasn't obvious we were going to run, his ypc may have risen, just like APs did.

 

I understand cutting Benson, but I do not buy that AP is as good or better.

[azbearsfan]

Its also the defenses job to get the offense ready. Benson was too soft so even if it was out of dislike for him it ultimately is still preparing the offense better. They werent cheap shots. Its about winning? Show me where Benson cared about helping the team win?

 

 

So why not hit TJ and AP just as hard? Those hard hits would get them ready too, right?

[Connorbear]

Are we really arguing who is a better RB - AP or Ced????? Wow, we really need some news around here!!!!!

 

Peace

[azbearsfan]

BUt it is about Benson...

 

That's why we're having a hard time following you I think.

 

I think you're falling into the trap of over-simplifying it. The reports do vary a bit...but overall, the gyst is that numerous defenders tried to give Benson extra hard hits because they did not like him. You've got to think it was more than he was just an a-hole. It was probably his attitude, his ethic, his performance in practice, their respect for the solid guy he's trying to unseat,etc... All of that.

 

I do agree, it's not the D's job to hurt a team-mate. Yes, in the true sense, what they did was inherently wrong. If it were actually found true, they should have been penalized by the team. But, there's not much way to prove it other than a fess up. To me, it's not much different than guys taking a few swings at one another in practice. As long as nothing was done dirty, just take your lumps.

 

Again, I think you're throwing Brown in a "cheap shot" category unfairly. You know none of this being true for certain, yet keep labeling Brown a cheap shot artist. I think that's unfair. You may attempt to label him a mean and nasty team-mate, but there was never any mention by anyone that cheap shots were taken.

 

How exactly is Benson better than AP? Can you show me your validation of such? Better YPC? More TD's? Less injuries? More tackles? Better pancakes?

 

 

 

Never labeled Brown as a cheap shot artist. There you go embellishing again. I said, in this instance, it is dissappointing to me that Brown would be a part of, IMO, taking cheap shot( hitting harder than you do against the other backs) in half pads the product of which injured another teammate. You say its ok because Benson was not liked, his work ethic sucked, etc. I say thats bullcrap, because even if you dont like the guy, its not their job to punish RB's for that. Its been further said that they did it more because they thought TJ deserved the #1 spot more. Again, not the defenses call and I dont see how you can argue it is. Remember the reason TJ got dropped down, was because he didn't like his contract and missed some of the workouts. Lovie usually will demote a guy for a couple of practices. He did it with Briggs, but the offense didn't take it upon themselves to beat the crap out of that backup.

 

Also remember that this was two years ago, when Benson had shown some promise his rookie year and was pushing for playing time anyway. So, again, my point is that its not the defenses job to hit some players harder for their own selfish reasons. Benson got hurt and therefore the team was hurt. And you have no idea what the effects of that had on Bensons development.

 

I just dont see how you guys defend that. And dont come at me with all the recent stuff, because this happened well before that.

[Mongo3451]

Are we really arguing who is a better RB - AP or Ced????? Wow, we really need some news around here!!!!!

 

Peace

Please don't make them stop, they may bring Shoop vs Turner!

[madlithuanian]

I'm not embelishing...

 

Here are your exact words:

 

Its really dissappointing to me that Brown, Briggs, and Url would take part in that. And its surprises me because Brown knows the effects of cheap shots.

 

Regardless, you can call it bullcr$p all you want. I call it cleaning up your own backyard. Your examples aren't analagous. What transpired with Benson is nothing like the Briggs or TJ incidents. Teammates liked those guys. And the idea of our putrid offense calling out or hurting any defensive player has to be the funniest thing since John Belushi! (Well, maybe with the exception of Kruetz). Especially in the Briggs' one... his back-up wasn't going to get the job. He was literally backing the position up when Lance got his wrist slapped by Lovie.

 

Hey, I do remember as a rookie he showed promise. Heck, I admit to being totally excited about the prospect of him getting more touches. But he's proven different. That promise soured fast...

 

I'm sure all that had an effect on Benson's development. And with that said, it showed too much weakness...not only physically, but mentally.

 

The D took it upon themselves to rough him up a bit. So what? Unless it was done as cheap shot, just deal with it. These guys want to win. If Benson would rather complain about it than lowering a shoulder...that's his problem. I'm glad he's not a Bear.

 

Football isn't ballet. People get hit, unnessesarily at times. Good players bounce back...others crumble under the pressure.

 

 

 

 

Never labeled Brown as a cheap shot artist. There you go embellishing again. I said, in this instance, it is dissappointing to me that Brown would be a part of, IMO, taking cheap shot( hitting harder than you do against the other backs) in half pads the product of which injured another teammate. You say its ok because Benson was not liked, his work ethic sucked, etc. I say thats bullcrap, because even if you dont like the guy, its not their job to punish RB's for that. Its been further said that they did it more because they thought TJ deserved the #1 spot more. Again, not the defenses call and I dont see how you can argue it is. Remember the reason TJ got dropped down, was because he didn't like his contract and missed some of the workouts. Lovie usually will demote a guy for a couple of practices. He did it with Briggs, but the offense didn't take it upon themselves to beat the crap out of that backup.

 

Also remember that this was two years ago, when Benson had shown some promise his rookie year and was pushing for playing time anyway. So, again, my point is that its not the defenses job to hit some players harder for their own selfish reasons. Benson got hurt and therefore the team was hurt. And you have no idea what the effects of that had on Bensons development.

 

I just dont see how you guys defend that. And dont come at me with all the recent stuff, because this happened well before that.

[madlithuanian]

Man, I know I've gone too far when Shoop v Turner is mentioned!

 

I think I got so caught up in my dislike for Benson, that I actually started to believe AP was as good of a pure runner... I'll back off from that! I still think AP's a better overall football player...but I'll try to leave that aspect well enough alone since it really matters not.

 

 

 

 

Please don't make them stop, they may bring Shoop vs Turner!

[DrunkBomber]

So why not hit TJ and AP just as hard? Those hard hits would get them ready too, right?

Theyre adults and its the NFL. Whether its fair or not, it isnt a big deal. If they didnt like him so they made him work harder in practice than so be it. He never seemed to care anyway. If I was on the team and a guy who didnt care about the team and never gave it his all and was handed the job over a better player because of his draft status I would try to work him too. is it a big deal for him to have to earn his teammates respect?

[azbearsfan]

Theyre adults and its the NFL. Whether its fair or not, it isnt a big deal. If they didnt like him so they made him work harder in practice than so be it. He never seemed to care anyway. If I was on the team and a guy who didnt care about the team and never gave it his all and was handed the job over a better player because of his draft status I would try to work him too. is it a big deal for him to have to earn his teammates respect?

 

 

He wasn't handed the job because of draft status. He was elevated because TJ missed activities.

 

And its not a big deal until he gets hurt.

 

Again, in my mind, whether you like the guy or not, there is no way you can defend the defense hurting someone on your team. To me its worse than Benson's attitude.

 

And I totally agree. Its the NFL and their adults. They are not junior high girls who do that to somebody because they want their friend to be number one.

They basically cut off their nose to spite their face.

[azbearsfan]

I'm not embelishing...

 

Here are your exact words:

 

Its really dissappointing to me that Brown, Briggs, and Url would take part in that. And its surprises me because Brown knows the effects of cheap shots.

 

Regardless, you can call it bullcr$p all you want. I call it cleaning up your own backyard. Your examples aren't analagous. What transpired with Benson is nothing like the Briggs or TJ incidents. Teammates liked those guys. And the idea of our putrid offense calling out or hurting any defensive player has to be the funniest thing since John Belushi! (Well, maybe with the exception of Kruetz). Especially in the Briggs' one... his back-up wasn't going to get the job. He was literally backing the position up when Lance got his wrist slapped by Lovie.

 

Hey, I do remember as a rookie he showed promise. Heck, I admit to being totally excited about the prospect of him getting more touches. But he's proven different. That promise soured fast...

 

I'm sure all that had an effect on Benson's development. And with that said, it showed too much weakness...not only physically, but mentally.

 

The D took it upon themselves to rough him up a bit. So what? Unless it was done as cheap shot, just deal with it. These guys want to win. If Benson would rather complain about it than lowering a shoulder...that's his problem. I'm glad he's not a Bear.

 

Football isn't ballet. People get hit, unnessesarily at times. Good players bounce back...others crumble under the pressure.

 

 

Good now we are getting somewhere Mad. Again I never called Brown a cheap shot artist. That would imply he cheap shotted people often.

 

And also you are bringing up all the stuff that has happened after the fact. At that time, as you admit, he showed promise and you admit you were excited from that promise. So if he was an up and comer with promise, why would the defense need to clean up their own backyard. He hadn't done anything yet. Noone knew that he was a moron DUI guy. The only reason the defense did that was because they loved TJ and didn't agree with his "demotion". And to be honest, if I was Benson, I'd be pissed too. First you get drafted, the tailback wont help you or speak to you and now all his buddies on defense are putting you through the ringer.

 

Now the point is, if that whole deal , in any way, contributed to his alienation from the team and stunted his development then those guys did a disservice to the team. It made the team weaker and has cost us games. You may be ok with that because you dont like Benson personally. I am not ok with weakening the team so your buddy can get back to starting.

 

And you are right, people get hit. But usually your defense doesn't hurt offensive players on purpose.

[nfoligno]

Sorry, but this is crap. We get it. You don't like Benson. Okay. But that doesn't make what happened right.

 

How about this. Offensive play in practice, and Clark flat out steam rolls Mike Brown. Mike Brown comes away limping. Rumors surface that Clark if fed up w/ the team giving chance after chance for some guy that continually disappoints.

 

So you would say it's okay? Hey, Mike Brown should be tougher.

 

Defensive players are freaking fed up w/ Rex Grossman turning the ball over, forcing them to play sooner. So, they go color blind in practice and knock him on his arce. Oops. He is out.

 

It's easy to justify when it happens to a player you do not like, but tends to get more difficult when it happens to a guy you do like.

[nfoligno]

Give me Shoop.

 

Now that that is settled, how about Hatley v Angelo:)

[DrunkBomber]

Sorry, but this is crap. We get it. You don't like Benson. Okay. But that doesn't make what happened right.

 

How about this. Offensive play in practice, and Clark flat out steam rolls Mike Brown. Mike Brown comes away limping. Rumors surface that Clark if fed up w/ the team giving chance after chance for some guy that continually disappoints.

 

So you would say it's okay? Hey, Mike Brown should be tougher.

 

Defensive players are freaking fed up w/ Rex Grossman turning the ball over, forcing them to play sooner. So, they go color blind in practice and knock him on his arce. Oops. He is out.

 

It's easy to justify when it happens to a player you do not like, but tends to get more difficult when it happens to a guy you do like.

Like I said Im not even concerned if its "fair" or not but its a part of football. It happens on any team. Do you think this is the first time a player got hit in practice by someone who didnt like him and ended up injured? This story is just more in the media so it seems worse. I agree it was in poor taste if its true but stiff like that happens all the time. Im sure most rookies play a lot harder then the vets to earn a spot so does that make it cheap if they hit someone and they get hurt because they were working extra hard?

 

Its bad when teammates dont get along and there is tension on the field but in Bensons case he brought it all upon himself. From day one here he never did anything to earn his teammates respect or a lot of the fans. If you want to be the back for the Chicago Bears you better come to play and work hard to help the team.

[azbearsfan]

Like I said Im not even concerned if its "fair" or not but its a part of football. It happens on any team. Do you think this is the first time a player got hit in practice by someone who didnt like him and ended up injured? This story is just more in the media so it seems worse. I agree it was in poor taste if its true but stiff like that happens all the time. Im sure most rookies play a lot harder then the vets to earn a spot so does that make it cheap if they hit someone and they get hurt because they were working extra hard?

 

Its bad when teammates dont get along and there is tension on the field but in Bensons case he brought it all upon himself. From day one here he never did anything to earn his teammates respect or a lot of the fans. If you want to be the back for the Chicago Bears you better come to play and work hard to help the team.

 

 

Really, what other team does the defense try to hurt a guy who can be a starter and help the team? I'd love to hear those examples.

[madlithuanian]

nfo,

 

I think you're missing the point.

 

The players like and respect Rex and Mike Brown. That makes all the difference. Brown proves himself with effort all the time and so does Rex. Granted, Brown is more successful on the field... But these guys show their work ethic. I've never taken that away from Rex.

 

Benson did not, at least at that time even if you give him this recent camp.

 

 

 

Sorry, but this is crap. We get it. You don't like Benson. Okay. But that doesn't make what happened right.

 

How about this. Offensive play in practice, and Clark flat out steam rolls Mike Brown. Mike Brown comes away limping. Rumors surface that Clark if fed up w/ the team giving chance after chance for some guy that continually disappoints.

 

So you would say it's okay? Hey, Mike Brown should be tougher.

 

Defensive players are freaking fed up w/ Rex Grossman turning the ball over, forcing them to play sooner. So, they go color blind in practice and knock him on his arce. Oops. He is out.

 

It's easy to justify when it happens to a player you do not like, but tends to get more difficult when it happens to a guy you do like.

[nfoligno]

And I think you may be missing my point.

 

For the situation of Benson, specific, I can understand much. My issue is a slippery slope one.

 

I have seen the argument that players play the game. Players felt TJ was better, so there is no problem knocking the crap out of the guy they feel the staff is trying to promote over TJ. Fans are writing it off due to dislike of Benson, but I think that is a mistake.

 

You talk about respect and work habbits. All that is fine and good, but respect is often as much about what they do in a game as it is in practice. If a guy sucks in practice but owns the games, I have a feeling the other players will like him. If a player works hard in practice, but sucks in games, players may respect him, but that doesn't mean they want him to start.

 

I mention Brown and Rex in a slipperly slope contention. It may not be a direct match for this situation, but I think it is a next logical progression.

 

At the end of the day, I really do not have a problem with an individual giving a little extra. What I do have an issue w/ is when the individual gathers other individuals and gangs up.

 

Look, this really is a loser argument. In order to argue against the actions, you have to sort of stand on the side of Benson and against players like Brown and Urlacher. That is near impossible right now. But as wrong as Benson may have been in many regards, I simply feel it also wrong to handle it the way our defensive players REPORTEDLY did.

[madlithuanian]

OK, then you're calling him a cheap shot "temp"...the intent of your comment is still the same.

 

Sure...I as a fan, sitting on my comfy couch, playing Madden, hoping we'll go 16-0, and win the Super Bowl was hoping for the best. According to some, a few players saw differently. He did do "something". He had a bad work ethic and who knows what else... Benson can be pissed all he wants to be. He has every right and justification. It's well within his legal rights to do so. However, it speaks to his character that he'd rather piss n moan about it than stand up for himself and prove himself. Oh poor little Ceddy! I get drafted 4th overall and get a ton of loot. The mean old yucky RB I'm sent to replace and eventually take his job away from won't play reindeer games with me, and his other friends are making it tough on me in practice! Please! That's just acting like a baby! You claim to always call this like the D was acting like Jr. High Schoolers...but Benson was acting like a pre-schooler!

 

I am finally seeing what so upsets you... I think you're saying that Cedric would have been better had the D not rough-housed him a bit thus causing him to sulk and not be happy and perform to the best of his ability. That it somehow weakened the team. I just disagree on so many levels. Fist, did it weaken it so much that we missed the Super Bowl? No. And even if it did, and their rough-housing of Ceddy caused him to fumble in the Super Bowl, etc...then we just plain deserved to lose that game relying on a weak person. I'm sure Cedric's a nice guy to hang out with. Heck, on a personal level, I do feel for him. I know tons of buddies who f'ed up, got treated bad, etc... I also know a ton who did that and made something of the situation. Football isn't about coddling and spooning, it's about tough love.

 

 

 

 

Good now we are getting somewhere Mad. Again I never called Brown a cheap shot artist. That would imply he cheap shotted people often.

 

And also you are bringing up all the stuff that has happened after the fact. At that time, as you admit, he showed promise and you admit you were excited from that promise. So if he was an up and comer with promise, why would the defense need to clean up their own backyard. He hadn't done anything yet. Noone knew that he was a moron DUI guy. The only reason the defense did that was because they loved TJ and didn't agree with his "demotion". And to be honest, if I was Benson, I'd be pissed too. First you get drafted, the tailback wont help you or speak to you and now all his buddies on defense are putting you through the ringer.

 

Now the point is, if that whole deal , in any way, contributed to his alienation from the team and stunted his development then those guys did a disservice to the team. It made the team weaker and has cost us games. You may be ok with that because you dont like Benson personally. I am not ok with weakening the team so your buddy can get back to starting.

 

And you are right, people get hit. But usually your defense doesn't hurt offensive players on purpose.