Wesson44 Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 IMHO our season last year was a bust, because of the offense. Yes the defense had it's problems and injuries played the pivotal role in the outcome, but how many times did we force three and out from the other team just to allow the offense to turn the ball over back to the other team? This will kill a defense.I think that with better ball control we will be a good team again and go to the Playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 In other news, water is wet. This has been the problem with the Bears for nearly every year since...well...since the Superbowl year. Anyone who would deny that the offense hinders the defense, more than the opposite, hasn't been watching the Bears very closely...especially over the past 20 years or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesson44 Posted June 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 LOL yes I know water is wet but can the offense carry the defense this year is the question. Well they don't have to carry the D but can they avoid the turn overs that killed us last year. Do you think that we will have a better running game to keep the D off the field? Can our group of WR/TE and QB'S step up and make the offense a ball control team? Do you think we have a quick strike passing game with the WR we have? Can the O-line pass block and oopen holes this year? IMHO these are a lot of question that need to be answered and if we can answer yes to them we will do major damage this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearFan2000 Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 If the offense can hold their own and do better with ball control that will partly help but they need to score points. It doesn't help to sustain a drive the length of the field or get a turnover with great field position to then only eek out 3 points because the offense can't locate the end zone. But you do make a good point about the D last year. As rough a year as they had and as many injuries as they sustained the did a pretty decent job of keeping us in games early. But over the course of the game when the offense isn't giving you anything much it really puts pressure on the D and it wears them out. If the D gives you the ball inside the opponent's 30 you better come away with 7 more often than you settle for 3. Last year we settled for three and awful lot. I remember hearing that we are going to get back to a ball control run oriented offense then we cut Benson (even though I agree with that move) we then decide we're happy with the backs we have left? If you are going to base your offense around a commitment to the running game and you are entring the season with a 2nd round Pick at RB, a second year guy who is more a the small situational type back, and a career backup RB and don't (at least publicly) plan on adding another solid back, I have to ask what are they smoking? To do what the Bears seem to intend to do they will need at least two to three durable backs. Sorry I don't see Wolf as a durable back if injuries force him to play significant time, I just don't think he has the body to take that punishment. Peterson is a career backup who can step in for a game or two and start. That leaves us with Forte. The Bears are pinning all their hope on one unknown to carry the team. Sound familiar? Now I do like Forte and think he can be a good back. I just find it odd that we don't try to bring in someone to replace Benson. Upon hearing Benson's release I immediately thought, ok cool now who will we bring in that could actually be a positive for this team? If we struggle again running the ball, it will put the pressure on the passing game which doesn't yet inspire much confidence in me. Well we do have Hester. I say that we line up in punt formation and direct snap to Hester. Just kidding. As you say there a lot of questions that need be answered on offense. For the passing game the key will be our TE's and how we involve Clarke and Olsen. Booker provides a veteran presence and has always had good hands. We have some speed in Hester and possibly Bradley if he can stay healthy and depending how much quickness he's lost due to injury. Davis may be more of a possession type receiver, then you have the rookies and the Loyd. The who's going to be the QB, Grossman or Orton? Will the winner of that competition get the job done? Can this area of the offense that could very likely be an achilies heal mold into a competent unit or even a strength? This group could surprise us or it could validate all our concerns. The line will they improve from last year. They were horrible last year and that's being nice. If williams works out at LT then that makes us stronger by moving Tait back to RT. Then up for play is the guard spots. I can see us trying different combinations and even if we field the best line we can it will take time for them to gel It may be ugly early but what I'm looking for is improvement throughout the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Does the offense hurt the defense. No question. I was among the few who felt the SB loss was FAR more on the offense than the defense. Everyone looks at the score board, or how Manning picked his way downfield, but I always looked at it different. W/ the exception of the one botched play, we kept one of the best offenses in the game to a dink and dunk game. Further, we forced how many turnovers, and did so against an offense that simply did not turn the ball over. IMHO, the defense did about as well as it could have w/ the situation they were in. Last year, again, the offense was poor. The defense had to over-come both injuries and a bad offense. At the same time, I do not want to take away a level of responsibility of the defense. One. While the offense was far worse, and the defense had many injuries, I would still argue there was reason to expect far more from the defense than the offense. Just look at the lineup. Defense, even w/ the injuries, fielded how many good to great players. Now look at the offense, and tell me how many they had. Two. There were times when the defense forced a 3 and out, or a turnover, only to return to the field before they drank a cup of gatorade due to the offense. But there were other times the defense had no excuse. One thing that always bugged the hell out of me is how our D looking in the first series after halftime. In this situation, the defense has no excuse. They are fresh, and should be ready, but too often, offenses drove it down their throats in this first series. To me, that is a lack of quality coaching, as well as players who come out of halftime unprepared and not ready. Three. More than the offense or injuries, the area of our defense that disappionted me was the DL. Even w/ injuries, we had more than enough talent to expect far better results than what we saw, IMHO. I am not arguing the O hurt the D. That is an impossible argument to make, IMHO. But I also go back to expectations. Going into the season, who really expected much from our offense? On the other hand, what were the expectations of our defense. As bad as our offense was, and it was bad, they actually ranked ahead (by a hair) of the defense. In scoring, they were shockingly 18th, w/ 20.9 ppg. Yes, part of that was special teams, but return points are still part of the final score, and provide the defense with more breathing room. I am not trying to argue the offense was good. They weren't. But lets not pretend the defense would have been good otherwise. Plenty of blame lays at the feet of the defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT2_3 Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 I am not trying to argue the offense was good. They weren't. But lets not pretend the defense would have been good otherwise. Plenty of blame lays at the feet of the defense. I've considered this question ever since the season ended. I already had an opinion, but decided to look up some stats to look at objectively. The stats I've decided to use are the offensive stats vs. opponents offensive stats. I figured that would be fair since it wouldn't include the bogus stats like points for and points against that include special teams data. I'm also not going to include stuff like rankings because they are comparative only against the league that year. Here's the simple stuff for comparison for the years 2005-2007. The stats are in order: (I would've labeled them better, but getting everything to line up was tough enough) Att = rushing attempts yds = rushing yards TDs = rushing TDs Rec = receptions Yds = receiving yards Y/R = yards per reception TD = receiving touchdowns RRTD = rushing and receiving touchdowns Yscrim = total yards from scrimmage 2005 11-5 Att Yds _TD Rec Yds _Y/R _TD RRTD Yscrim 488 2099 11 219 2201 10.1 11 22 ___4300 __Team Ttl 443 1637 09 313 2872 9.20 10 19 ___4509 __Opp Total 2006 13-3 503 1918 14 282 3446 12.2 24 38 ___5364 __Team Ttl 402 1590 07 328 3116 9.50 18 25 ___4706 __Opp Total 2007 7-9 430 1320 08 347 4000 11.5 20 28 ___5320 __Team Ttl 454 1967 17 343 3708 10.8 19 36 ___5675 __Opp Total What I'm primarily looking at here are the opponent totals to determine what our defense was giving up each year. In 2005, our offense REALLY sucked and our defense was awesome. In 2006, our offense improved greatly in yards and touchdowns (primarily in the passing game), but the defense fell off it's previous year's total awesomeness. In 2007, our rushing game fell off the face of the earth, but the passing game improved enough to keep the total yardage within 44 yards of the previous years total, while the defense fell off the map giving up nearly 1000 more total yards and 11 more TDs than the previous year. Looking at it that way, I'd have to say that more of the blame should go to the defense than the offense for last year. The offense sure had their issues too, but the defense just sucked more comparitively to the year before when we went to the Superbowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Thanks for the analysis! However I think there are still too many variables to just take the numbers at face value. The D did suck last year, but we all know the injury issues that plagued us. Also, regarding the improved passing from '06...it's probably due to being behind and playing catch-up. The stats may not be telling the full story. One stat I'd love to see is turnovers... I think both sides literally dropped the ball last year... I know you didn't want to bring up rankings, but I was wondering if you had a league everage for both? Somewhere to give a bit of a spot check... Maybe we're dirt bottom in O, yet pretty decent in D. I'd just be curious. I've considered this question ever since the season ended. I already had an opinion, but decided to look up some stats to look at objectively. The stats I've decided to use are the offensive stats vs. opponents offensive stats. I figured that would be fair since it wouldn't include the bogus stats like points for and points against that include special teams data. I'm also not going to include stuff like rankings because they are comparative only against the league that year. Here's the simple stuff for comparison for the years 2005-2007. The stats are in order: (I would've labeled them better, but getting everything to line up was tough enough) Att = rushing attempts yds = rushing yards TDs = rushing TDs Rec = receptions Yds = receiving yards Y/R = yards per reception TD = receiving touchdowns RRTD = rushing and receiving touchdowns Yscrim = total yards from scrimmage 2005 11-5 Att Yds _TD Rec Yds _Y/R _TD RRTD Yscrim 488 2099 11 219 2201 10.1 11 22 ___4300 __Team Ttl 443 1637 09 313 2872 9.20 10 19 ___4509 __Opp Total 2006 13-3 503 1918 14 282 3446 12.2 24 38 ___5364 __Team Ttl 402 1590 07 328 3116 9.50 18 25 ___4706 __Opp Total 2007 7-9 430 1320 08 347 4000 11.5 20 28 ___5320 __Team Ttl 454 1967 17 343 3708 10.8 19 36 ___5675 __Opp Total What I'm primarily looking at here are the opponent totals to determine what our defense was giving up each year. In 2005, our offense REALLY sucked and our defense was awesome. In 2006, our offense improved greatly in yards and touchdowns (primarily in the passing game), but the defense fell off it's previous year's total awesomeness. In 2007, our rushing game fell off the face of the earth, but the passing game improved enough to keep the total yardage within 44 yards of the previous years total, while the defense fell off the map giving up nearly 1000 more total yards and 11 more TDs than the previous year. Looking at it that way, I'd have to say that more of the blame should go to the defense than the offense for last year. The offense sure had their issues too, but the defense just sucked more comparitively to the year before when we went to the Superbowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 I've considered this question ever since the season ended. I already had an opinion, but decided to look up some stats to look at objectively. The stats I've decided to use are the offensive stats vs. opponents offensive stats. I figured that would be fair since it wouldn't include the bogus stats like points for and points against that include special teams data. I'm also not going to include stuff like rankings because they are comparative only against the league that year. Here's the simple stuff for comparison for the years 2005-2007. The stats are in order: (I would've labeled them better, but getting everything to line up was tough enough) Att = rushing attempts yds = rushing yards TDs = rushing TDs Rec = receptions Yds = receiving yards Y/R = yards per reception TD = receiving touchdowns RRTD = rushing and receiving touchdowns Yscrim = total yards from scrimmage 2005 11-5 Att Yds _TD Rec Yds _Y/R _TD RRTD Yscrim 488 2099 11 219 2201 10.1 11 22 ___4300 __Team Ttl 443 1637 09 313 2872 9.20 10 19 ___4509 __Opp Total 2006 13-3 503 1918 14 282 3446 12.2 24 38 ___5364 __Team Ttl 402 1590 07 328 3116 9.50 18 25 ___4706 __Opp Total 2007 7-9 430 1320 08 347 4000 11.5 20 28 ___5320 __Team Ttl 454 1967 17 343 3708 10.8 19 36 ___5675 __Opp Total What I'm primarily looking at here are the opponent totals to determine what our defense was giving up each year. In 2005, our offense REALLY sucked and our defense was awesome. In 2006, our offense improved greatly in yards and touchdowns (primarily in the passing game), but the defense fell off it's previous year's total awesomeness. In 2007, our rushing game fell off the face of the earth, but the passing game improved enough to keep the total yardage within 44 yards of the previous years total, while the defense fell off the map giving up nearly 1000 more total yards and 11 more TDs than the previous year. Looking at it that way, I'd have to say that more of the blame should go to the defense than the offense for last year. The offense sure had their issues too, but the defense just sucked more comparitively to the year before when we went to the Superbowl. I love the breakdown, and agree that it's worthwhile in its own regard, but I think it's misleading. There are three major problems with this analysis: 1) Turnovers - There is no consideration to the imact turnovers have 2) Impact from the other unit - This could be 1a), but the simple fact is, the offense affects the defense a lot more than the other way around. Reacting to another action is more difficult than acting. The constant 3-and-outs, something the Bears probably led the league in, surely hurt the defense quite a bit. 3) Situational coaching - Because the Bears were down more often than they were up this year, it's probably a pretty safe bet to say that the yardage is only up because the Bears were forced to pass. And as such, they naturally had more yards, but also more turnovers and quick, worthless drives (see 1 & 2). Whereas, the year before, the Bears were ahead more often than not, and able to dictate the pace of the game. Ignore your stats. Ignore what type of pictures they may paint. Can you honestly look back at the games last year and say the defense was worse than the offense? Go from feel, memory, or watch the highlights. I just don't think anyone who watched the games can say that. The defense may have struggled mightily, but the offense sucked something awful most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBearSox Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 In other news, water is wet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LT2_3 Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Thanks for the analysis! However I think there are still too many variables to just take the numbers at face value. The D did suck last year, but we all know the injury issues that plagued us. Also, regarding the improved passing from '06...it's probably due to being behind and playing catch-up. The stats may not be telling the full story. One stat I'd love to see is turnovers... I think both sides literally dropped the ball last year... I know you didn't want to bring up rankings, but I was wondering if you had a league everage for both? Somewhere to give a bit of a spot check... Maybe we're dirt bottom in O, yet pretty decent in D. I'd just be curious. Ok Yearly rankings (I don't like these rankings because they include defensive and special teams scores for the offense and against the defense) 2005 Defense points allowed #1 Yardage allowed #2 Offense points scored #26 yardage gained #29 2006 Defense points allowed #3 Yardage allowed #5 Offense points scored #2 yardage gained #15 2007 Defense points allowed #16 Yardage allowed #28 Offense points scored #18 yardage gained #27 How's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Thanks! I guess it doesn't add much to the overall conversation. Can I press you what the turnovers are? How many did the D get and how many did the O give up? Ok Yearly rankings (I don't like these rankings because they include defensive and special teams scores for the offense and against the defense) 2005 Defense points allowed #1 Yardage allowed #2 Offense points scored #26 yardage gained #29 2006 Defense points allowed #3 Yardage allowed #5 Offense points scored #2 yardage gained #15 2007 Defense points allowed #16 Yardage allowed #28 Offense points scored #18 yardage gained #27 How's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ54 Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Both offense and defense sucked last year. At different times of the season, even game to game, one was worse/better than the other. Of course some of that had to with the strength and weaknesses of the opponents, some due to injuries, some due to what was absolutely inept coaching (Wolfe up the middle against one of the best inside run D of Minn). I love this game because of the many complexities but we were let down in a lot of different ways last year. As far as a defense being more affected by the offense than vice versa; I'll add that if a D consistently forces an offense to go 3-and-out then our offense gets to beat up on their tired defense. That's been one of the problems with Lovie's cover-2 scheme. He uses lighter players who don't hold up well against long drives. At varying times in the last few years we've had stretches in games where the D just could not get off the field. They didn't always give up points but the change in field position didn't help either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDaddy Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Both offense and defense sucked last year. At different times of the season, even game to game, one was worse/better than the other. Of course some of that had to with the strength and weaknesses of the opponents, some due to injuries, some due to what was absolutely inept coaching (Wolfe up the middle against one of the best inside run D of Minn). I love this game because of the many complexities but we were let down in a lot of different ways last year. As far as a defense being more affected by the offense than vice versa; I'll add that if a D consistently forces an offense to go 3-and-out then our offense gets to beat up on their tired defense. That's been one of the problems with Lovie's cover-2 scheme. He uses lighter players who don't hold up well against long drives. At varying times in the last few years we've had stretches in games where the D just could not get off the field. They didn't always give up points but the change in field position didn't help either. Some very good points. I'm just glad that we realize that our defense laid an egg last year. They embarrassed themselves. Yeah, they had injuries but they played with ZERO heart and intensity aside from maybe a couple series all year. This concerns me mostly because that is a poor reflection of your coaching staff. What's also truly a shame is that here we are a team that built itself into a SB contender and in 1 yr we are, according to most the media KNOWITALLS out there, rebuilding? Sorry, but if this team is rebuilding, I want every coach and JA fired. That is neither logical or acceptable. You cannot go from competing the way we did against Indy in the SB, even shorthanded on defense to what we saw last year. That is mostly the coaches fault. Anything less than a playoff appearance is simply unacceptable and if they don't get to the playoffs, Lovie should be fired. If I were JA, I would make that perfectly clear. I think the younger McCaskeys would take the hit to get the right guy in here. If Lovie IS the right guy, he will field a winner this year with no excuses. Rex or kyle are good enough to get us to the playoffs and better than many think. For me, no more talk of rebuilding. We've been there, done that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 No arguement here...Lovie and crew should be canned if this team doesn't perform. But, I still think this team is rebuilding, because I just don't see Rex or Orton coming to the rescue... We did a lot of smoke and mirrors in our SB run 2 years back. We've been found out basically. And as funny as it is to watch, Denny Green's tirade has too much truth in it... Bottom line, the cover 2 has been figured out, and our offensive play calling can be figured out by a 3rd grader with Madden rookie level only skills. The only edge we really have is on special teams. Some very good points. I'm just glad that we realize that our defense laid an egg last year. They embarrassed themselves. Yeah, they had injuries but they played with ZERO heart and intensity aside from maybe a couple series all year. This concerns me mostly because that is a poor reflection of your coaching staff. What's also truly a shame is that here we are a team that built itself into a SB contender and in 1 yr we are, according to most the media KNOWITALLS out there, rebuilding? Sorry, but if this team is rebuilding, I want every coach and JA fired. That is neither logical or acceptable. You cannot go from competing the way we did against Indy in the SB, even shorthanded on defense to what we saw last year. That is mostly the coaches fault. Anything less than a playoff appearance is simply unacceptable and if they don't get to the playoffs, Lovie should be fired. If I were JA, I would make that perfectly clear. I think the younger McCaskeys would take the hit to get the right guy in here. If Lovie IS the right guy, he will field a winner this year with no excuses. Rex or kyle are good enough to get us to the playoffs and better than many think. For me, no more talk of rebuilding. We've been there, done that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDaddy Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 No arguement here...Lovie and crew should be canned if this team doesn't perform. But, I still think this team is rebuilding, because I just don't see Rex or Orton coming to the rescue... We did a lot of smoke and mirrors in our SB run 2 years back. We've been found out basically. And as funny as it is to watch, Denny Green's tirade has too much truth in it... Bottom line, the cover 2 has been figured out, and our offensive play calling can be figured out by a 3rd grader with Madden rookie level only skills. The only edge we really have is on special teams. That Denny Green tirade was classic but only illustrates one of his deficiencies as a coach. His teams seem to forget you have to play FOUR quarters, not two, I think teams have figured out the cover 2 but that doesn't neccesarily mean that they can score at will on it. I think we've found over the past few years that for it to work, you need an excellent line rotation. 1 standout guy on the line won't cut it AND you need extraordinary safety play. These are 2 things we didn't have last year. I think you will see a marked improvement in our defense and I'll go sa far as to say if we get Brown back 100%, Urlacher and Harris are healthy and Alex brown comes to play. This defense will be dominating. I think either Grossman or Orton can play in this league and if they have better protection, which they should, we have some potentially dangerous weapons on offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Turnovers is big. The year we went to the SB, we were +8 in turnovers (4th in the league). Last year, we were -1 (17th in the league). We went from 24 picks to 16, and also saw fewer FFs. This is a big issue for our defense. We do not run a defense (though I wish we would) that tries to bust the opponent in the mouth and stop them on every down. We give up plays looking for the turnover. When you get them, the defense can look good, even if they give up yards. But when you don't..... This is a problem I have always had w/ Lovie. Even when he was the DC at St.L, he was bigger on turnovers than simply making stops. His D's then would not rank that high in yard or points allowed, but would rank high in turnovers, and thus be considered good. I have never liked that all or nothing scheme. Turnovers are great, but if you rely on them too much, and they don't come, you are going to lose. That, IMHO, is a big part of what happened last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I agree 100%! Lovie in STL was really all about giving up territory but getting the turnover... Turnovers is big. The year we went to the SB, we were +8 in turnovers (4th in the league). Last year, we were -1 (17th in the league). We went from 24 picks to 16, and also saw fewer FFs. This is a big issue for our defense. We do not run a defense (though I wish we would) that tries to bust the opponent in the mouth and stop them on every down. We give up plays looking for the turnover. When you get them, the defense can look good, even if they give up yards. But when you don't..... This is a problem I have always had w/ Lovie. Even when he was the DC at St.L, he was bigger on turnovers than simply making stops. His D's then would not rank that high in yard or points allowed, but would rank high in turnovers, and thus be considered good. I have never liked that all or nothing scheme. Turnovers are great, but if you rely on them too much, and they don't come, you are going to lose. That, IMHO, is a big part of what happened last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I hear ya... No doubt the cover 2 needs D Line pressue and outstanding safety play... Once you remove Mike Borwn out of the mix, we become very average playing that defense. I'm not sippin' your QB kool-aid unfortunately... Mine has spoiled. That Denny Green tirade was classic but only illustrates one of his deficiencies as a coach. His teams seem to forget you have to play FOUR quarters, not two, I think teams have figured out the cover 2 but that doesn't neccesarily mean that they can score at will on it. I think we've found over the past few years that for it to work, you need an excellent line rotation. 1 standout guy on the line won't cut it AND you need extraordinary safety play. These are 2 things we didn't have last year. I think you will see a marked improvement in our defense and I'll go sa far as to say if we get Brown back 100%, Urlacher and Harris are healthy and Alex brown comes to play. This defense will be dominating. I think either Grossman or Orton can play in this league and if they have better protection, which they should, we have some potentially dangerous weapons on offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ54 Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Ah yes, the turnover factor. Ask Brett Favre how that works when Charles Tillman is covering his WRs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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