JA and the 1st round picks

[jason]

Is it the owner, the front office, JA, the coaches, or the scouts? Who chooses the first round selections?

 

I just got to wondering that, because in a recent fantasy mag they mention the numerous first rounders who have not panned out for the Bears. It's truly disheartening.

 

Columbo, Haynes, Enis, Salaam, Rex, Benson, and to a lesser extent Tank (2nd)...that's a lot of misses in the first round.

 

I wonder what the hit to miss ratio is as compared to other franchises?

[nfoligno]

First, I do not think you even mention Tank in the discussion. If you do, then you have to factor all the 2nd round picks.

 

Second, I question looking at any picks prior to Angelo (Enis/Salaam). To ask what the problem is, but go back that far when the org set-up was far different, doesn't work IMHO.

 

So what is the problem. I would say there is no "one" problem, but a host of problems.

 

Columbo - Angelo's first pick. He has actually turned into a solid OT, but could not stay healthy for us. If he had a history of injuries, then I would have no issue putting this on the GM, but I do not believe Columbo did, and thus would chalk this up to bad luck.

 

Haynes - Hated this pick even then. Some would argue Haynes was drafted for one system, which we almost immediately changed, and it was a big change. That is true, but as Haynes never made it w/ another team, not even as a competent backup, then I would argue he was simply a bust.

 

Rex - Another I didn't care for the day we drafted him. He was a winner w/ heart and leadership. Great, but he was a shorter QB from a questionable system that often produced smoke and mirror QBs. But hey, QB is one of the toughest positions to draft.

 

Harris - I doubt any will complain about this one.

 

Benson - Just simply bad scouting.

 

DM - Yea, he was a 2nd rounder, but we traded down from the 1st round (supposedly) w/ him in mind all along. Angelo said we would have taken him in the 1st, but felt we could trade down and get him for better value. Thus, I will include him. To me, DM poses the question of scouting v coaching. DM was an elite athlete, but from a smaller school and in need of sound coaching to develop. Was this simply a matter of poor scouting, or poor development from the coaching staff?

 

Olsen/Williams - To be determined.

 

In Haynes and Benson, there is plenty out there questioning character, which really makes me question how much our staff looks at beyond pure NFL skills. On the other hand, they drafted Rex more on character and charisma (IMHO) than based purely on football skills.

 

To answer the question, I guess I have no freaking clue I do not think it is any one thing. I don't think it is Mikey calling down and telling the staff what to do. I think the problems are between coaches, scouts and GM, but not necessarily in that order. I think our scouts can be questioned for their scouting reports. I think coaches can be questioned for the lack of development of many players. And I think Angelo can be questioned simply because he makes the decision of who to draft.

 

Beyond the 1st round, one problem I have w/ Angelo is, I think he falls in love w/ some players/positions, and ignores needs and/or what I would call a strategy. For example, take this year. We have two solid starting DEs (Brown/Wale) and a stellar #3 DE (Anderson). Yet last year we drafted Bazuin, which was questionable, and this year we draft yet another DE? Or we have a veteran TE we just locked up for a few more years, and last years 1st round pick TE. And then we draft another? These players may be good, but if they are so deep on the draft chart, how will you ever find out?

 

It kills me how fans have given Angelo so much credit for his drafting, but I have never been that impressed. I find it fairly ironic that the two players on defense who, if they suffer injury, seem to set our defense back the worst, were the only two players on the defense who Angelo did not draft/sign (Urlacher/Brown).

[madlithuanian]

I haven't a clue...I sure would be curious to find out though.

 

Is it the owner, the front office, JA, the coaches, or the scouts? Who chooses the first round selections?

 

I just got to wondering that, because in a recent fantasy mag they mention the numerous first rounders who have not panned out for the Bears. It's truly disheartening.

 

Columbo, Haynes, Enis, Salaam, Rex, Benson, and to a lesser extent Tank (2nd)...that's a lot of misses in the first round.

 

I wonder what the hit to miss ratio is as compared to other franchises?

[Lucky Luciano]

To answer the question, I guess I have no freaking clue I do not think it is any one thing. I don't think it is Mikey calling down and telling the staff what to do. I think the problems are between coaches, scouts and GM, but not necessarily in that order. I think our scouts can be questioned for their scouting reports. I think coaches can be questioned for the lack of development of many players. And I think Angelo can be questioned simply because he makes the decision of who to draft.

 

mikey may not phoning in the picks but as i have stated in the past: if management is too cheap or too stupid to hire, not only better, but more scouts then it falls on them along with the rest. example... if the scouts we now employ are better at finding defensive players then don't you think we should add some more on the offensive side that can evaluate talent?

 

Beyond the 1st round, one problem I have w/ Angelo is, I think he falls in love w/ some players/positions, and ignores needs and/or what I would call a strategy. For example, take this year. We have two solid starting DEs (Brown/Wale) and a stellar #3 DE (Anderson). Yet last year we drafted Bazuin, which was questionable, and this year we draft yet another DE? Or we have a veteran TE we just locked up for a few more years, and last years 1st round pick TE. And then we draft another? These players may be good, but if they are so deep on the draft chart, how will you ever find out?

 

could ONE of angies many problems be that he is not only looking at players talent wise but how much he thinks he can sign them for? this could be a major problem if he keeps drafting damaged goods or small school talent because he thinks his cap figure duties outweigh choosing the best players.

 

It kills me how fans have given Angelo so much credit for his drafting, but I have never been that impressed. I find it fairly ironic that the two players on defense who, if they suffer injury, seem to set our defense back the worst, were the only two players on the defense who Angelo did not draft/sign (Urlacher/Brown).

 

another approach to this issue is if you draft a major number of players at the same positions, as he does, year after year aren't you bound to have a better chance at finding good players? the problem is you ignore the rest of the teams needs in doing so.

 

another indication relating to this statement... how many safeties have we drafted since angie took over? how many are considered starters? how many linebackers have we drafted? DT's? etc.

[nfoligno]

mikey may not phoning in the picks but as i have stated in the past: if management is too cheap or too stupid to hire, not only better, but more scouts then it falls on them along with the rest. example... if the scouts we now employ are better at finding defensive players then don't you think we should add some more on the offensive side that can evaluate talent?

 

And I have said before, I just do not believe money is the issue. Years ago, sure. Then we were known to have one of the smallest scouting departments in the NFL. When Hatley and Phillips took over, that department grew into the largest in the NFL. I believe you have made the argument that we still don't know how much the scouts made, thus we could still be cheap, but I think that is a reach. I have not read/heard that our scouting department today is either small in size, or underpaid. If that were the case, wanna bet we would have read about it by now.

 

Now the quality of our scouts I agree can be questioned, but that is a managerial and/or personnel issue. I think Lovie Smith is a big problem for this team. He is very well paid, but money doesn't always mean quality (just ask Washington).

 

Also disagree w/ the logic that we should just hire more scouts. I would argue we should have competant scouts, and should not have to hire 2 scouts for every area/school when other teams only employ one. Think in terms of most any business. How many companies do you think just hire a 2nd guy to work w/ the guy not getting it done. No, the fire the guy not getting it done and replace him. There is no money factor here, simply a personnel one.

 

could ONE of angies many problems be that he is not only looking at players talent wise but how much he thinks he can sign them for? this could be a major problem if he keeps drafting damaged goods or small school talent because he thinks his cap figure duties outweigh choosing the best players.

 

Sorry, but Angelo's history does not support this. Since joining the team, in the 1st round, Angelo has used 5 of 8 1st round picks (including DM in the early 2nd after trade) on big schools. Penn St, Florida, Oklahoma, Texas & Miami. So he has not simply drafted small school talent. He does look at small school talent, especially after the 1st round, but the financial committment for those picks is not great enough to try and argue money is an issue. In fact, I would argue the opposite. Not every team has a scouting department large enough to scout many of the smaller schools, and yet we do.

 

I know how bad you want to say the team is cheap, and years ago, you would have been correct. But since Hatley and Phillips began to take over, a pretty dramatic change began, to the point where I just do not see how you can even try and say we still today are a cheap organization. Whether you are talking about money paid to players, coaches and staff, having a GM, or outside costs such as training facility, scouts, etc., I just think the argument today fails. This is not Halas' team anymore, and it was he who was the real cheap one. Mikey earned the rep., but he was only following in George's footsteps.

 

another approach to this issue is if you draft a major number of players at the same positions, as he does, year after year aren't you bound to have a better chance at finding good players? the problem is you ignore the rest of the teams needs in doing so.

 

another indication relating to this statement... how many safeties have we drafted since angie took over? how many are considered starters? how many linebackers have we drafted? DT's? etc.

 

Agree and disagree. We continue to draft DEs, but if Angelo did draft Alex Brown, and then Anderson as well. At LB, he did draft Briggs, and we may yet find we have talent in the more recent two. Many CBs drafted, but it is a league that needs many corners, and he did find Tillman, Vasher, McBride, etc. It is not always a bad thing to draft depth. What blows my mind is when he already has a solidified position, and then continues to draft at that position. I have no problem w/ continuing to draft safeties, as we have yet to hit on one. Ditto w/ WR. But we have TE, DT, DE, LB, and CBs, so I question the continued drafting of these positions after they have already been solidified.

[Da Bears 88]

Is it the owner, the front office, JA, the coaches, or the scouts? Who chooses the first round selections?

 

I just got to wondering that, because in a recent fantasy mag they mention the numerous first rounders who have not panned out for the Bears. It's truly disheartening.

 

Columbo, Haynes, Enis, Salaam, Rex, Benson, and to a lesser extent Tank (2nd)...that's a lot of misses in the first round.

 

I wonder what the hit to miss ratio is as compared to other franchises?

Cripes, did Rex sleep with your girl or something? Sheesh. Sure, he hasn't been great.

 

But, he doesn't belong in the same group as Salaam, Benson.......etc.

[nfoligno]

First round QBs are drafted to be franchise QBs. After 5 seasons, we still consider him a question mark. He may not be (he isn't) as bad as some on the list, but the point is failed draft picks, and I think he does fit into that group. Heading into his 6th season, he will be in an open competition w/ a 2nd day pick QB who has barely gotten a 2nd glance from our coaching staff. Maybe he is best of that weak bunch, but that doesn't mean he doesn't belong on the list.

[jason]

Cripes, did Rex sleep with your girl or something? Sheesh. Sure, he hasn't been great.

 

But, he doesn't belong in the same group as Salaam, Benson.......etc.

 

I disagree. He belongs in the conversation because he has not lived up to his draft position. As far as I'm concerned, he is on the border of bust status.

[BearSox]

Benson - Just simply bad scouting.

 

It wasn't bad scouting as from a scouting perspective, Benson was as good as it got. He had all the tools you looked for and was quite simply a great prospect. I'd chalk it up to more so of bad judgement/bad luck. We all knew there were character concerns, but there was no one else at 4. That first round was just an all-around bad situation for us.

[Da Bears 88]

I find it funny that alot of people throw Rex under the bus.

 

Yet, think Orton is the savior.

[Connorbear]

I don't think we should bring up Salaam or Enis when discussing JA. He has had enough issues with his own 1st round draft picks to worry about players drafted before he was hired.

 

Peace

[nfoligno]

What I find funny is, you always say that, but I have read few (if any) posts where anyone thinks of Orton as a savior.

 

Thinking a player deserves a chance is a pretty long way from thinking a player is a savior.

 

And just for the record, what does Orton even have to do w/ this? Is the only way you can hype Rex by knocking Orton?

 

The thread was about 1st round failures. As much as you may want to argue otherwise, Rex thus far has been a 1st round failure. When you draft a QB in the 1st, you expect him to be a franchise QB. After 5 seasons, Rex is still one giant question mark. Yea, he belongs on the previously mentioned list.

[madlithuanian]

Fair enough! But, I think his job is to make us forget about those picks, and he hasn't...

 

I don't think we should bring up Salaam or Enis when discussing JA. He has had enough issues with his own 1st round draft picks to worry about players drafted before he was hired.

 

Peace

[madlithuanian]

No disrespect...but may I ask how old you are? I'm pushing 40. And as long as I've been following the Bears, ever since Jim McMahon, the fans and media's favorite QB has always been the one on the bench. There at least appears to be an illusion of hope in that which we do not quite fully know.

 

I'll be the first to say that I'm happy to throw Rex under the bus.... But I don't think Kyle is the savior. I actually thought it was Brohm. The only thing about Kyle, is I just would like to see him get a fighting chance to show us what he's got. To practice with the #1 team and open up the playbook for him. Rex has had that advantage and we've seen what he can do. I'd like to see what Kyle can do with that same advantage. He could very well be worse. But, what if he is better?

 

 

 

I find it funny that alot of people throw Rex under the bus.

 

Yet, think Orton is the savior.

[Connorbear]

Fair enough! But, I think his job is to make us forget about those picks, and he hasn't...

For me he has - our team was miserable during the Wanny and Jauron yrs. In the past 3 yrs, we have won the division twice and went to the SB. Yeah, we lost but we did go. I think this yr is critical for JA and Lovie. If we regress, their jobs will be in jeopardy.

 

Peace

[madlithuanian]

Overall I'd agree...

 

 

 

For me he has - our team was miserable during the Wanny and Jauron yrs. In the past 3 yrs, we have won the division twice and went to the SB. Yeah, we lost but we did go. I think this yr is critical for JA and Lovie. If we regress, their jobs will be in jeopardy.

 

Peace

[DABEARSDABOMB]

Angelo could leave the Bears whenever he wants. Its not as if the Bears hired him and hold all the leverage (in the sense that this was the only GM position he could have possibly gotten (ie, the Bears hiring someone under-qualified so they could manipulate him). If they weren't going to let him have full say of the football decisions he wouldn't be here, therefor, he's 100% in charge of who we take in the 1st round and as a whole he's done a tremendous job drafting and managing the cap.

 

I'd give him an A- or so as a GM, solely because he has gotten snake-bit on a few decisions (most of which occurred early in his career). I really can't blame him for the failure last year or even the failures of some of those first round busts (QB is a crapshoot and Rex has all the tools and thats what you can ask from your GM, to put a guy with the tools onto the roster and than let the coaches turn him into a quality player; Benson could be looked at as a failure if he had these attitude questions (But had we not taken him, someone else would have grabbed him in the first 7 or so picks so it isn't like we were the only team who had him that high on the board....hell, this guy belongs in a sentence involving the greatest collegiate running backs to ever play the game).

[madlithuanian]

I don't really follow... Any player coach, etc can leave anytime they want. There are just ramifications of such. The Bears did hire him. They also do hold leverage. I believe he cannot be a GM with another team unless he buys out his contract or something to that end. Maybe someone here can expound...

 

I do blame him for the failure of last year's draft. I think he got a little too big for his britches after the succes of the previous season. I think we took way too many long shots. I'm even skeptical Bazuin will ever see the field. Some of the first round busts, I understand. Some guys just crap out on the gambling table. However, even at some point, if too many crap out, the blame has to rest somewhere other than with the "chance gods". Jerry made the picks, he must be held responsible. Seems to me Billicheat doesn't have that problem... He's picking wisely. But, you are 100% correct when you say JA has done a good job of managing the cap and keeping our own intact.

 

I think your grade is quite high. I'd give him a B-, maybe B at best when you factor in gems like Vasher and Hester... His defensive grade could be an A, but his offensive grade is no better than C, if not worse...therefore you can't give him a better grade than B I feel.

 

Angelo could leave the Bears whenever he wants. Its not as if the Bears hired him and hold all the leverage (in the sense that this was the only GM position he could have possibly gotten (ie, the Bears hiring someone under-qualified so they could manipulate him). If they weren't going to let him have full say of the football decisions he wouldn't be here, therefor, he's 100% in charge of who we take in the 1st round and as a whole he's done a tremendous job drafting and managing the cap.

 

I'd give him an A- or so as a GM, solely because he has gotten snake-bit on a few decisions (most of which occurred early in his career). I really can't blame him for the failure last year or even the failures of some of those first round busts (QB is a crapshoot and Rex has all the tools and thats what you can ask from your GM, to put a guy with the tools onto the roster and than let the coaches turn him into a quality player; Benson could be looked at as a failure if he had these attitude questions (But had we not taken him, someone else would have grabbed him in the first 7 or so picks so it isn't like we were the only team who had him that high on the board....hell, this guy belongs in a sentence involving the greatest collegiate running backs to ever play the game).

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I don't really follow... Any player coach, etc can leave anytime they want. There are just ramifications of such. The Bears did hire him. They also do hold leverage. I believe he cannot be a GM with another team unless he buys out his contract or something to that end. Maybe someone here can expound...

 

I do blame him for the failure of last year's draft. I think he got a little too big for his britches after the succes of the previous season. I think we took way too many long shots. I'm even skeptical Bazuin will ever see the field. Some of the first round busts, I understand. Some guys just crap out on the gambling table. However, even at some point, if too many crap out, the blame has to rest somewhere other than with the "chance gods". Jerry made the picks, he must be held responsible. Seems to me Billicheat doesn't have that problem... He's picking wisely. But, you are 100% correct when you say JA has done a good job of managing the cap and keeping our own intact.

 

I think your grade is quite high. I'd give him a B-, maybe B at best when you factor in gems like Vasher and Hester... His defensive grade could be an A, but his offensive grade is no better than C, if not worse...therefore you can't give him a better grade than B I feel.

I'm essentially saying that Angelo was the type of candidate that would have never taken this position had the Bears put any restrictions on whom he could draft and the day to day football operations. He was a very qualified candidate who was thought was one of the main guys behind the superbowl champion Bucs. In addition, he signed an extension here and if he wasn't in control and others were pushing the buttons or making the calls on the top selections he would have had all the opportunity in the world to go get paid and paid well to GM another franchise.

 

Basically put Angelo's hiring was the opposite of a team hires a guy that no one things is capable of being a head coach or GM (Raiders and Cowboys have done this) and they end up being more of a mouth-piece for an owner but they accept that because its there only shot at getting a head coaching position.

[Connorbear]

I think your grade is quite high. I'd give him a B-, maybe B at best when you factor in gems like Vasher and Hester... His defensive grade could be an A, but his offensive grade is no better than C, if not worse...therefore you can't give him a better grade than B I feel.

I agree on a B for a grade and further agree on the breakdown.

 

Peace

[AZ54]

It kills me how fans have given Angelo so much credit for his drafting, but I have never been that impressed. I find it fairly ironic that the two players on defense who, if they suffer injury, seem to set our defense back the worst, were the only two players on the defense who Angelo did not draft/sign (Urlacher/Brown).

 

IMO our $40milllion dollar man Tommie Harris belongs in that group. I'd also argue that we can (and have) minimize the loss of one of these three players but when we lose any two of the three we really notice the difference. Put Harris on the field in the Superbowl and I think that's a totally different game.

[jason]

I find it funny that alot of people throw Rex under the bus.

 

Yet, think Orton is the savior.

 

Did you see where anyone in this thread said that? I don't think so. I think you are making an assumption, and it's a very poor one. As far as I'm concerned, I just want a quarterback to step up and be consistent without screwing his team. Rex has been given a ton of chances to do this, and he has failed. Even during the Super Bowl season in which he was wildly inconsistent, he ended up choking in the biggest game of the year and had more trouble holding onto the ball than people in a hog catching competition.

 

Conversely, Orton was given one real shot to start, and during that season, his rookie season, he did MUCH better than one would expect of a rookie. He showed poise, pocket presence, a strong arm, and a pretty good understanding of reads/progression. What could it hurt to let him have a legit second chance? Lord knows Rex has had more than his fair share of opportunities.

 

I repeat; I want a QB who does not hurt his team. Along with that, he should have moderate to good success. But the key is, I'd like him to be careful and not kill the team. And until proven otherwise, that's about the best we can expect from the QBs on the Bears roster.

 

On a side note, are you related to Rex in some way?

[madlithuanian]

OK...I follow.

 

Thanks for clarifying!

 

I'm essentially saying that Angelo was the type of candidate that would have never taken this position had the Bears put any restrictions on whom he could draft and the day to day football operations. He was a very qualified candidate who was thought was one of the main guys behind the superbowl champion Bucs. In addition, he signed an extension here and if he wasn't in control and others were pushing the buttons or making the calls on the top selections he would have had all the opportunity in the world to go get paid and paid well to GM another franchise.

 

Basically put Angelo's hiring was the opposite of a team hires a guy that no one things is capable of being a head coach or GM (Raiders and Cowboys have done this) and they end up being more of a mouth-piece for an owner but they accept that because its there only shot at getting a head coaching position.

[Mongo3451]

name='jason' date='Jul 1 2008, 08:24 PM' post='41214']

On a side note, are you related to Rex in some way?

Only if there is incest involved.

[nfoligno]

You all are giving him a "B" grade?

 

Angelo has been here for 6 full seasons. While he did join the team in 2001, it wasn't until after FA and the draft. If he were a coach, I would still count that year, but a GMs job is mostly done in the offseason, and he missed that one. So he has been w/ the team 6 years. In those 6 years, he has 2 winning and 4 losing seasons. I don't want to hear snake bit or whatever. You know what, the job of the GM is to have depth to avoid those snake bit issues.

 

His drafts have been weak. He has some hits, and some really big hits at that, but are they enough to even it out, much less carry the day? Especially when you factor how poorly he has drafted in the 1st round.

 

He has built a very good defense, but has anyone stepped back to consider how two of the top keys to our defense were players left over from prior to Angelo? Mike Brown and Urlacher are huge keys to the defense, and those were here before Angelo. Not saying he has not filled the defense w/ other talent, including some top tier talent, but making the point that two of the top players on our defense were not brought in by Angie.

 

Then you look at the offense, and simply put, he has failed miserably. Period. His drafts have been weak to the point of pathetic (though we all maintain hope his more recent offensive players picked will prove different). His FA additions are, for the most part, been short term. The only two exceptions I can think of are Tait and Clark, and until lately, we didn't think that much of Clark (hence spending a 1st round pick on another TE).

 

Sorry, but while we have had a couple exciting seasons, at the same time, when you look at the hole, I do not see how he can have a B or a B- grade. 2 winning seasons our of 6 is bad. Total inability to draft an entire side of the field (offense) is about as big of a problem as any. The job of a GM is not to simply build one side of the field, but to build an entire team, and he has not done that.