JA and the 1st round picks

[LT2_3]

I would agree with this statement. We could talk about it anyway you like. Hell, I would argue we should really talk about JA since Lovie's hire since Jauron was not his coach of choice.

 

Point being, we will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

Peace

 

I have some problem with simply counting "winning seasons" because I think 7-9 with loads of injuries should be looked at differently than a 4-12 or 1-15 season. By looking at only winning seasons, they carry exactly the same weight in the analysis and that just seems wrong.

 

I would tend to agree with you that we shouldn't really count the pre-Lovie era for the same reason. However, I've been down this road before and know the response is that it shouldn't matter for a good GM.

 

I relate it to IT issues - which is my background. You can't expect a new IT guy to come in and fix everything overnight. There are servers on lease that you can't replace immediately because resources have been allocated for them and you also can't come in and fire everyone overnight. As for Jauron not being Angelo's guy, he ran different systems than what Angelo was used to. It would be like hiring a Novell guy to run OS2 servers. You would really have to wait until the Novell guy got the old servers replaced and hired the right people to support them too before you could really judge what kind of job the guy is doing.

 

But then again, that's the real world where saving money and improving efficiency are more important than wins and losses although the implementation of change is similar. We are fans that expect more than that!

[nfoligno]

Tell me this. If I read your comments right, you are saying Angelo simply runs such a different system than Jauron, that the combo was doomed from the start, and thus it is not right to judge Angelo prior to his getting his coach.

 

Is that what you are saying? Really?

 

I know you used an IT example, as it is what you know, but should a GM be so specialized? Is the role of the GM not greater than such a specific area. For example, Angelo has done a solid job building a defense (aside from replacing Brown), but is that enough? Do we write off his offensive failures by saying that isn't his forte, as his background is defense?

 

My issue w/ Angelo during Jaurons time is he didn't even seem to try. At least, that is the way I felt. To me, he tried to build a system that supported what he wanted, rather than support the coach. That, again to me, is simply recipe for disaster.

[Pixote]

My issue w/ Angelo during Jaurons time is he didn't even seem to try. At least, that is the way I felt. To me, he tried to build a system that supported what he wanted, rather than support the coach. That, again to me, is simply recipe for disaster.

 

Virginia McCaskey was so in "love" with DJ that when she finally said "enough is enough" and took away Mikey's controls to hire a GM she insisted DJ have the final say so over the roster decisions and for the most part, the final say in who we drafted. This can not be debated as it was well documented by the press during the DJ/JA era.

 

Therefore, JA was a lame duck GM during the DJ era. He couldn't even get rid of Shoop-da-Poop OC.

 

DJ's loyalty to his staff was his downfall. He was a good HC who selected a very bad OC and refused to fire him when he did not produce results. Lovie has had no problem with changing coordinators when he felt it was necessary. I am sure if R Turner does not turn things around this year we will see OC #3 under Lovie come in.

 

I remember when we had Patrick Mannley in for a live chat session at BearsTalk (arranged by the Da Webmaster himself, Jeff Timms) and the news of the day was why the Bears had yet signed DJ to an extension after he had been named HC of the year. It was widely speculated at that time that JA wanted to have DJ change OCs. DJ refused to sign an extension unless Shoop was extended first. VM wanted Juaron, her guy, resigned, period. I asked P Mannley directly if the hold up in the signing of DJ was do to the issue of J Shoop as OC. Without going into details and getting himself into trouble with management, he confirmed that JA wanted Shoop out, DJ would not hear of it, and a stalemate had occurred. Obviously, DJ won, again because JA at that time was a lame duck GM being controlled by VM, TP, & DJ.

 

I personally think JA has been an excellent GM. A Jim Finks? No, there will be very few as good as Finks was. How many GM's are in the HOF? However, I think his successes are documented enough to put him in the top 5 GMs in the league today. Yes, he has had some failures in the draft. But tell me what GM, including Finks, who did not screw the pooch on a few of their draft selections? Man, it is not an exact science by any means. It is more of a crap shoot with educated guesses than a Doctorate Degree in Football.

[nfoligno]

Disagree on several areas.

 

DJ have the final say so over the roster decisions and for the most part, the final say in who we drafted. This can not be debated as it was well documented by the press during the DJ/JA era.

 

Oh, I will debate this as it may be the first time I have ever even heard it. At the time, Jauron had final say over the 53 man roster. But I have never heard it told that he had totol, near or much of any, control over who the team brought in, or who was drafted. In fact, I specifically recall a time when he cut a player Angelo drafted, and this was largely done as part of the power play between the two. He was never a Jauron player, and Jauron wanted to "hit" Angelo. I believe this happened after Angelo did something else, w/ a player, to tick off Jauron.

 

So yes, I will argue this point plenty. Jauron had, in his contract, power over the 53 man roster. But who was brought added to the team, via draft or FA, was totally on Angelo. Sorry, but if what you say is true, than Angelo just dropped 5 notches in my book. He was so desparate for a job that he took a position where he was a figurehead w/o control? Come on. Jauron had some power in his contract, but I think you over-state how far it reached.

 

By your thinking, are you saying we should not credit Angelo for: Alex Brown, Adrian Peterson, Tillman or Briggs? Are you saying Jauron drafted those guys?

 

Therefore, JA was a lame duck GM during the DJ era. He couldn't even get rid of Shoop-da-Poop OC.

 

No argument Shoop was a big point of contention between Jauron and Angelo, but I would argue Shoop was not close to the cause, but part of the power struggle. IMHO, the rift between Angelo and Jauron began much sooner. Heck, I think it goes as far back as Engram being released.

 

I have always wondered, if Jauron and Angelo were not at war, whether Jauron would have supported Shoop the way he did. Everyone talks about it as pure blind loyalty, but I have always felt it was far more a matter of Shoop being part of a power play between the two.

 

I personally think JA has been an excellent GM. A Jim Finks? No, there will be very few as good as Finks was. How many GM's are in the HOF? However, I think his successes are documented enough to put him in the top 5 GMs in the league today. Yes, he has had some failures in the draft. But tell me what GM, including Finks, who did not screw the pooch on a few of their draft selections? Man, it is not an exact science by any means. It is more of a crap shoot with educated guesses than a Doctorate Degree in Football.

 

Every GM has failures. To think otherwise is ridiculous. In a draft where you have 6 or 7 selections, finding 3 solid to good players is more often than not considered a success. But one thing I do not believe can be avoided is how poorly he has built the offense. Sorry, but IMHO, the role of the GM is not to simply build one side of the field. Angelo's background is defense, and he has risen high, but I have yet to see that he is capable of more than what he background began w/. On paper, we may have the best defense in the league. Angelo gets huge credit for that. Massive credit. At the same time, we have one of the worst offenses in the league, and have pretty much since he joined the staff. His failures in drafting QB, RB, WR, OL have hurt this team as much as his solid drafting on defense has helped.

 

Now maybe that changes this year. Maybe Olsen steps forward. Maybe the trio of offensive players he drafted step up. But that is a maybe we will not see until the future.

 

Until Angelo is able to build a decent offense, I simply do not see how he can be considered top 10, much less top 5. I am very glad he has proven capable of finding defensive talent, but until he proves he can find talent on both sides of the field, I think such praise is simply unwarranted.

[Pixote]

Disagree on several areas.

 

DJ have the final say so over the roster decisions and for the most part, the final say in who we drafted. This can not be debated as it was well documented by the press during the DJ/JA era.

 

Oh, I will debate this as it may be the first time I have ever even heard it. At the time, Jauron had final say over the 53 man roster. But I have never heard it told that he had totol, near or much of any, control over who the team brought in, or who was drafted. In fact, I specifically recall a time when he cut a player Angelo drafted, and this was largely done as part of the power play between the two. He was never a Jauron player, and Jauron wanted to "hit" Angelo. I believe this happened after Angelo did something else, w/ a player, to tick off Jauron.

 

So yes, I will argue this point plenty. Jauron had, in his contract, power over the 53 man roster. But who was brought added to the team, via draft or FA, was totally on Angelo. Sorry, but if what you say is true, than Angelo just dropped 5 notches in my book. He was so desparate for a job that he took a position where he was a figurehead w/o control? Come on. Jauron had some power in his contract, but I think you over-state how far it reached.

 

By your thinking, are you saying we should not credit Angelo for: Alex Brown, Adrian Peterson, Tillman or Briggs? Are you saying Jauron drafted those guys?

 

Here is one article I found on the internet. Now tell me, do you think the drafting of Michael Haynes was JA idea (drafted the last year DJ was in control prior to the 2003 season)? Was M Haynes the type of DT that fits the mold of a JA defensive line? Nope. So why was he drafted while Dick Juaron was HC?

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, searchJerry Angelo is the American football general manager for the NFL's Chicago Bears franchise since 2001. Prior to joining the Chicago Bears, Angelo spent 14 years overseeing Tampa Bay Buccaneers' scouting department as their Director of Player Personnel.

 

Angelo began his career in the NFL as a scout for the New York Giants and the Dallas Cowboys in the early 1980s. Four years later he moved on to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, a team that had experienced brief success. An expansion team in the mid 1970s the Buccaneers lost the NFC championship game in 1979 to the Los Angeles Rams. What followed was a chaotic series of player tragedies and setbacks that sent the team into a slump. A succession of coaches and numerous roster changes failed to revive the team throughout the 1980s. Angelo was associated with the appearance of front office divisions and management mistakes. By the late 1990s his 14 year tenure in Tampa Bay was perceived as successful as the Buccanneers made the playoffs 3 times from 1997-2000. With new ownership of the franchise, Angelo moved on to the Chicago Bears.

 

Since taking over the Chicago Bears in 2001, Angelo had a tenuous road ahead of him. Dick Jauron, the coach at the time, had in his contract that he was to have control of the player roster, which entitled him to the GM powers that Angelo was supposed to have. The relationship between the 2 was at best, grating, and at worst, downright horrible.

 

Then, during the 2003 season, Ed McCaskey died, thus spreading out the shares he had, and allowing the other McCaskey children to take the majority share away from Virginia and Michael McCaskey. Thus this led to Angelo finally being elevated to full GM and powers (instead of name only). It also signaled the end of Dick Jauron, who was fired at the end of the season.

 

Angelo then sought a new coach. The short list was Nick Saban, Russ Grimm, and Lovie Smith. Nick Saban was choice #1, but wanted the GM powers Angelo just acquired. Saban went on to a short tenure with the Miami Dolphins prior to returning to college football. Russ Grimm was the second choice but was not hired.

 

Lovie Smith was hired by Angelo as the coach of the Chicago Bears in 2004. The Bears have gone from 5-11 in 2004, to 11-6 in 2005 (including a playoff loss to the Carolina Panthers) to a team in 2006 that went 15-4 after losing Super Bowl XLI to the Indianapolis Colts. Angelo was ranked as the eighth best general manager in professional sports in February of 2007. [1]

 

Since the 2004 season, sites calling for the head of Jerry Angelo, such as firejerryangelo.com, have seen less and less traffic, and have not updated key areas of their sites to reflect the GM's current success.^{[citation needed]}

 

Why did JA take the job knowing he would be a Lame Duck GM? I have no doubt that he was sure that eventually DJ would fail and that he would gain the powers of a true GM. He was right on.

[nfoligno]

One. I have seen that wikpedia article in the past. You should know that while Wikpedia is a nice site, it is not entirely factual. I could go onto Wikpedia and write an article about Crackerdog, and I could get very colorful . Some might be true, but not everything.

 

Two. Look closer at what that article says, and put it in line w/ what I said. The article says Jauron had control over the player roster. Is that so different from what I said? I said he had control over the 53 man roster, and even mentioned the example of Jauron cutting an Angelo draft pick for what many believed to be spite. But that does not mean he has control over the draft or FA. Think of it this way. He had the power to fire, but not the power to hire. He could do w/ those already on the team as he wanted, but he could not add to the team as he saw fit.

 

If he had total GM powers, AND Virginia was so behind him, then why did we hire Angelo at all? Seems to me, if this was all true, then we would have simply promoted Jauron.

 

Three. Michael Haynes. You want the short or the long. The short? I think Angelo simply was drafting for need. He was looking for a pass rusher, and haynes was the best on the board. The Long? I think Angelo didn't get the guy he wanted that year. That was the year we traded down, and shortly there after, a run on DTs began. I think he was looking at Jimmy Kenney, who was taken one pick in front of our new pick. He then just took whoever was the next best pass rusher on our board. Actually, he traded down one more slot before he did this.

 

I have said this before, and continue to. When Angelo can prove capable of building more than one side of the ball, I will give him the credit you do. Until then? Solid high level defensive scout.

[LT2_3]

One. I have seen that wikpedia article in the past. You should know that while Wikpedia is a nice site, it is not entirely factual. I could go onto Wikpedia and write an article about Crackerdog, and I could get very colorful . Some might be true, but not everything.

 

Two. Look closer at what that article says, and put it in line w/ what I said. The article says Jauron had control over the player roster. Is that so different from what I said? I said he had control over the 53 man roster, and even mentioned the example of Jauron cutting an Angelo draft pick for what many believed to be spite. But that does not mean he has control over the draft or FA. Think of it this way. He had the power to fire, but not the power to hire. He could do w/ those already on the team as he wanted, but he could not add to the team as he saw fit.

 

If he had total GM powers, AND Virginia was so behind him, then why did we hire Angelo at all? Seems to me, if this was all true, then we would have simply promoted Jauron.

 

Three. Michael Haynes. You want the short or the long. The short? I think Angelo simply was drafting for need. He was looking for a pass rusher, and haynes was the best on the board. The Long? I think Angelo didn't get the guy he wanted that year. That was the year we traded down, and shortly there after, a run on DTs began. I think he was looking at Jimmy Kenney, who was taken one pick in front of our new pick. He then just took whoever was the next best pass rusher on our board. Actually, he traded down one more slot before he did this.

 

I have said this before, and continue to. When Angelo can prove capable of building more than one side of the ball, I will give him the credit you do. Until then? Solid high level defensive scout.

 

Let me explain the timeline a bit more. When Angelo was hired in May 2001, it was too late for Angelo to find a new coach. Everybody expected that the team might peak out at 8-8 after the 5-11 2000 season. At that point, it was expected by everyone (when I say everyone and everybody, I mean the players, the fans, the McCaskeys, the media: Everyone) that Angelo would then be able to fire Jauron and hire his own head coach.

 

What happened along the way, was the team went 13-3 and went to the playoffs for the first time since 1994. Jauron was named coach of the year, and Ed McCaskey declared on TV in late November that Jauron would be retained at any cost.

 

So, while everyone (including Angelo) thought that he would be able to hire a new coach for 2002, the situation changed dramatically and unexpectedly. Now what was Angelo supposed to do at that point? Quit? I would think that decision would be a career killer.

 

As for the roster/drafting situation with Jauron and Angelo, it obviously was complicated. While I agree with you that Angelo was responsible for bringing in players, he had to work with Jauron to get the kinds of players that Jauron wanted for his schemes. Quite frankly, I don't think the two of them worked together particularly well.

 

Angelo was brought in to correct the lack of a proper top down structure where the HC reports to the GM and the GM makes all the calls on personnel to replace the dysfunctional system where Hatley and Jauron were equals. Due to the unexpected success in 2001 that structure was put on hold - until 2004 when Lovie was hired. It was due to that continued dysfunctional structure that I and many don't hold Angelo completely responsible for those years. It's like judging how well someone can do their job with both hands tied behind their back. you just can't make a reasonable judgement on their abilities.

 

As for building both sides of the ball, I'm waiting for that too. However, it doesn't seem quite as big a deal when you cut the number of years that you are really counting to 4 (3 on the offensive side of the ball) and include a SB appearance.

[nfoligno]

In some ways, I think we might actually agree. I agree the structure of the org was bad. I agree ownership meddled when Angelo took over, w/ regard to Jauron. I agree that he and Jauron did not work well together, and that made bad things worse. But...

 

- In talk of why Angelo would take the job, I think you missed the point. The argument was made that Jauron had total control, including the draft and all personnel moves, as opposed to what I have said, control over the 53 man roster. My point was, in argument against Angelo being w/o control was, why would any GM accept the job if they had no authority to do their job?

 

- I agree Angelo was handicapped at the beginning. At the same time, I also believe he did little to compensate for this handicap, and in fact, made it worse. I am NOT making Jauron out to be an Angel. He was a stubborn ass himself. But I none-the-less fault Angelo too.

 

- Back to the offense.

 

First, why 3 years for the offense? Lovie started in '04, and thus Angelo has had (prior to this off-season) 4 drafts to build the offense. Are you saying three because of the OC change? I do not think you can give a GM a clean slate every time an assistant coach changes. Angelo has had 4 drafts (if we do not count the Jauron days) and we still have one of the worst offenses in the league.

 

Second, I question how much your Jauron days argument applies to the offense. Angelo come to the team w/ a defensive scheme already in mind. I do not believe he ever had an offensive scheme in mind. Further, if you look at the draft, it simply lacks offensive players drafted. I am simply not sure how much we can simply blame Jauron. Was it Jauron's choice to pass on offensive talent? Was it Jauron's choice to draft questionable offensive talent when it was available? I guess when the day comes and Rex is finally written off as a bust, that too will be Jauron's fault and not Angelos?

 

While I have arguments w/ you about the Jauron era, I do agree the argument is better when looking at the defensive side of the ball than the offense. On the offensive side of the ball, Angelo simply did little, and what little he did, didn't prove very good. Just look at Angelo's history.

 

If you throw out the final two rounds, which rarely provide better than depth, look at how much Angelo has addressed the offense.

 

2002

1st round w/ Columbo - Injury related bust

3rd round w/ Metcalf

 

2nd, 4th and 5th round picks went defense, and the two offensive players drafted provided the team nothing.

 

2003

 

Rex was the later 1st and 2 WRs in the 5th. 6 defensive players taken in the top 5 rounds, double the offense, including 3 1st day picks and the 3rd pick of the 2nd day.

 

2004

 

3rd round for Berrian and 5th for Krenzel.

 

1st, 2nd, two 4th and a 5th for defense. 5 to 2 ratio here.

 

2005

 

Finally he goes offense w/ his first 4 picks. Benson (bust), Bradley (bust), Orton (more than likely bust) Currie (bust).

 

2006

 

Back to defense as the 1st 5 rounds are all defense. 6th and 7th round picks are offense, and nothing to write home about. Hester is now offense, but he was drafted to be a DB, so I refuse to count him.

 

2007

 

This is the year most expected him to go all out on offense. We were coming off a SB game, and got there w/ defense. He does draft some offense, but nothing close to what many expected.

 

Olsen looks good. Wolfe looks like a 3rd down back and Beekman is not even getting a look at OG, and didn't get a look last year when we desperate at the position. Bazuin, Okwo, Payne and Graham also drafted for defense.

 

So if you look at his history, (1) he has never really applied himself to the offense and ( when he has, he has found VERY little success. This year we hope the tides change, but we have to hope this years crop is simply better than his history has shown.

[Lucky Luciano]

What? Are you suggesting that what college a player goes to affects how much money they get paid? If you're saying something else, then please clarify. If that WAS what you were saying, that is absolutely untrue. Player contracts are slotted for players in the 2nd round and beyond.

 

And I guess that by skipping small schools you would have never drafted Payton either.

 

what i am 'suggesting' is that if that player going to that smaller, OR larger school for that matter, was not even on the radar as to the slot he was drafted, then i believe it IS >>'possible'

 

is this some wild radical idea i pulled out of my hat? as radical an idea as this is, it happens with the #1 pick nearly every year. so is this so far fetched to believe it happens in other rounds? also, if players can be believed, this practice happened in chicago in the past. a phone call from our franchise asking if X player would sign for X money if they draft them in X slot in the draft. do i have hard facts if this is true or not? no, only the recollection of players stating this years ago and watching players negotiating on the phone draft day.

 

i have a novel idea, why don't YOU provide some facts as to the monetary amounts for players that were drafted a round or MORE before expected to go by us and compare it to the players contracts paid in the slot before and after by other teams that same year. i'm more than happy to concede this point if you prove the price is right over the last 8-10 years.

 

i would also like to comment on your payton analysis... this holds about as much water as a thimble. payton was RANKED to go in the first round when we drafted him. he was CONSIDERED a top talent and it was NOT a case of us drafting someone nobody but us heard of. the same goes for other picks in various rounds throughout draft history, they were slotted as having enough talent to warrant that position in the draft no matter what school they came from.

 

Since you're so fond of overloading people with useless info, why don't you do a compare and contrast with those coaching staffs and what the league average was at the time.

 

“overloading people with useless info”? do you mean information/facts i used to dispute or challenge nfoligno’s DIRECT comments to ME? or do you mean me wasting my time looking up and posting information that disputes what i stated because you are too lazy to do it yourself? OR, maybe you should READ the ENTIRE thread before making “useless” comments yourself.

 

well, just to help you out, i did look it up for you. if you have any “useless information” or even facts to dispute the following please feel free to post them......

 

dick jauron:

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2003/dec/30/b...agement_defies/

Rick Morrissey - Chicago Tribune

 

“Given that the Bears will have to pay Jauron $2.4 million for the final year of his contract, Fassel would be a decent compromise between the coaches who will want megabucks, such as LSU's Nick Saban, and the list of inexpensive NFL coordinators the Bears historically hire.”

 

although i’m sure this is more “useless info” and facts, you might want to compare the tail end of jauron’s EXTENSION salary value above, when it expired, to what coaches were *making in the nfl when smith was hired. if the tribune is correct jauron was being paid in the bottom 1/3 of head coaches in the nfl.

 

============

 

http://www.1urbanavenue.com/stories/2007/0...0301bears.shtml

 

lovie smith:

“The lowest-paid coach in the NFL last season at $1.35 million when he led the Bears to the Super Bowl, Smith's deal will average about $4.7 million per season over five years.”

http://chicagobearsfanforum.com/pipermail/...rch/000483.html

 

* “In the meantime, the NFL coach of the year will get only a pat on the

> back and the knowledge that six of his colleagues make more than $4

> million a year, led by Seattle's Mike Holmgren at $7.5 million. Ten

> make more than $3 million a year; 12 make more than $2 million and

> three make more than $1.8 million while Smith brings up the rear,

> according to multiple NFL reports and sources.”

 

=======================

 

http://www.newsday.com/topic/sns-chicagobears,0,963422.story

 

angie’s contract:

 

“The job is expected to pay in the $600,000-$750,000 a year range, the low end for a general manager but a significant increase in what any of the finalists are now earning. One of the candidates eliminated earlier in the six-week interview process said he would ask for at least a six-year contract because 2001 "is already shot."”

 

 

hmmmm.... does that say it all? even angie got low-balled

 

It was built in 1990 while Ditka was coach. Incidentally, that was 18 years ago and not 10. I'm not sure what your point is, but I thought we should be clear about what really happened because you tend to only bring up stuff if it supports your cause. Again, I really don't get the point of bringing that up.

 

well excuse the hell out of me for only posting a recollection of 10 yrs vs. 18 yrs which, by the way, supports MY argument more anyway.

 

the point that >>i>POSIBILITY

 

MY QUOTE

“4. the stadium maybe? uhhh no. paid for by tax payers.”

 

YOUR QUOTE

Well, ummmmm not so much really. The league did give them a no interest loan to help finance the renovations, so it wasn't paid for entirely by the taxpayers. In fact, they paid $200 million towards the $365 million stadium renovation. the other $300 million went to reconfigure the lakefront and landscaping. So, all in all, the Bears paid for quite a bit of the renovations themselves.

 

http://apse.dallasnews.com/contest/2002/wr...se.fourth1.html

 

http://www.stadiumsofnfl.com/past/SoldierField.htm

 

thanks for the links. they totally dispute everything you just stated. so sorry but on that scale, $30 million dollars is peanuts. to state the taxpayers aren’t paying the lions share of the burden is a ridiculous comment.

 

according to the APSE article, you yourself linked, the bear franchise ponied up $30 million dollars for the stadium renovation out of their OWN pockets of the $632 million dollar renovation of soldier field. $400+ million dollars paid by taxpayers, $150 million dollars paid by the nfl.

 

how does that $150 mil from the nfl get paid back you ask? read the article you linked yourself.

 

“Most of it is not repaid by the borrowing team, but from the visiting team's cut of club-seat money.”

 

MY QUOTE

“5. player salaries? and yet again, player salaries are paid for by the salary cap allowances.”

 

YOUR QUOTE

Wait a minute, you aren't going to go into that rubbish about the players getting paid directly by the league are you? Teams get money from the league. then they use that AND other revenues to pay the players and all their other costs. There ARE times where a team ACTUALLY pays more or less than the cap based on how many big money deals with upfront money they sign in a given year. So, if they pay out $30 million in upfront money that gets amortized against the cap in future years, they spend more than the cap in the year that the deals are signed, but spend less in the subsequent years when it gets amortized. So, while there is a correlation, it's not directly linked. (I would also point out that with the new CBA a couple of years ago, the 60% of total revenues that the players get is more than just the TV contract money now.)

 

yea, i guess i am going into that “rubbish” once more for your sake. again, i also GET IT, there are times that a team actually pays out, >>TEMPORARILY

 

it is also true that every year previous amounts of this front “bonus” money are paid back and put into the pocket of the owners or used to pay off the loans they took to get it. so what that means is that at the very MOST you, as a franchise, are paying interest ONLY on the money if you had to borrow it. below is a model of how this could possibly work for the owners...

 

first and foremost i am not a statistician, a CPA, or even a math wiz for that matter, and you can take the following “useless info” and put it into perspective if you find it incorrect:

 

most banks in the world would loan you money with a secured loan and usually, if i’m not mistaken, at around a 1% return.

 

as an example i used $10 mil as an easy figure to regulate at the 1% over prime for a pro rated signing bonus over a 5 year period. at 1% loan interest the costs would be:

1st year interest $100,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money

2nd year interest $80,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money

3rd year interest $60,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money

4th year interest $40,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money

5th year interest $20,000 with final 20% payback of borrowed money

 

total actual cost of borrowing the $10 mil bonus money over this five year period - $280,000 with interest at 1%

 

let’s say the previous example is crap (which it well may be) and go with a straight loan of $10 mil at 4% interest as an example:.

 

1st year interest $400,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money

2nd year interest $320,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money

3rd year interest $240,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money

4th year interest $160,000 with 20% payback of borrowed money

5th year interest $80,000 with final payback of borrowed money

 

total actual cost of borrowing $10 mil bonus money over a five year period - $1,200,000 at straight 4%

 

you can look at these yearly amounts of interest money as being paid back from the slop that is left over YEARLY from that same years cap allowances doled out by the league that aren’t spent and used as a reserve for emergencies in case of injury etc.. usually between $.5 to $3+ million dollars, depending upon the franchise, at the end of a season and still show a profit from this.

 

so the theory it takes a well healed generous owner to pay these bonus’s out of his own pocket is nonsense. the nfl pays for 99.9+% of all player salaries at the start and nobody spends more than the cap allowed in the long run.

 

as far as your statement “with the new CBA a couple of years ago, the 60% of total revenues that the players get is more than just the TV contract money now” it is completely meaningless if the divided salaries paid to the franchises comes from tv money or other league revenue that determines the salary cap.

 

MY QUOTE

you CAN'T keep drafting the same position players every year in the same draft slots no matter how you look at it. if you have a big need ok draft one higher and balance the rest of the team out by getting what you need on both sides of the ball. offensive linemen have been a need since angie CAME here!! yet he refuses to draft a guard higher than the the 5th round (almost all are in the 6th or 7th round) with the exception of metcalf who is crap.

 

YOUR QUOTE

I still don't get why you would draft a guy when you don't have a roster spot for the dude. We DID take Beekman in the 4th.

 

that is exactly one of my POINTS!! why do you keep drafting the same type/position players, not only on defense but actually on offense – RB and WR, on the first day year after year and ignore real needs? don’t you think the offensive line has needed not just starters at every position on the line but good replacement depth since angie came to chicago?

 

as far as beekman... i give you that. he is so invisible on this squad that i missed him in this particular instance as a 4th round pick. although, as i stated in the past, angie drafted 4 offensive linemen in six years in rounds 1-5 including THIS year. that is a sickening fact.

 

To refer to the parts in bold along with info you conveniently left out, the guy went from an assistant director position in Chicago to a director's position in Washington. Are you suggesting that the Bears are cheap because they didn't offer him a promotion to a position that was currently filled? I would bet that even if the Bears offered to match the money he was offered, he would take the title upgrade.

 

hahahaha

 

now you are accusing me of “conveniently” leaving out information. so which is it? am i conveniently leaving out information or am i “overloading people with useless info”? just for curiosities sake did you catch the reference in the first paragraph – “limited budget, and limited time, to locate two assistants”

 

but then i guess limiting personnel budgets wouldn’t be considered >>possibly

 

Considering your propensity to leave out facts that don't support your point, what was your source for this info - so I can check it out myself. I would guess that the Bears are pretty middle of the raod when it comes to this stuff - which I would see as average instead of cheap.

 

in FACT my responses were intended to question nfoligno’s statement: “But since Hatley and Phillips began to take over, a pretty dramatic change began, to the point where I just do not see how you can even try and say we still today are a cheap organization. Whether you are talking about money paid to players, coaches and staff, having a GM, or outside costs such as training facility, scouts, etc., I just think the argument today fails.”

 

this INCLUDED commenting upon his training facility costs and scout program in which there is absolutely no indication of spending generosity in the time period he stated according to my “useless info”.

 

just for the record. i never STATED as fact that this franchise WAS cheap. my response (including the “useless info” facts) questioned whether being cheap was a >>possibility

 

finally... which facts did i leave out? i am a bit confused also. you haven’t included a single fact in your whole response except the one dealing with the stadium costs in which you got hung with your own rope.

 

but hey, if you want to check it out, everything i posted on there as a fact to my knowledge, as close as i could find, and was done over a period of HOURS using a google search. i did most of the hard work just finding the names. so do a name search and check the information against nfl personnel. if that’s too difficult for you go to the teams home page and look for not only coaches but STAFF. some list it there. some are/almost impossible to find including the bears. hmmmm i wonder why that is?