The official Hester Holdout thread

[jason]

That is one of the biggest problems with the way contracts are written in professional sports. There are no incentives and performance evaluations with merit raises that are earned by the best performers of the company. I agree that Devin deserves more money for what he has done so far however, holding out it not the answer. Being a good employee, doing your work and continuing to excel and making yourself indispensable to the organization will say a lot more to the people that matter versus striking for more. I think that this is a bad move and someone who Devin respects from the team needs to get a hold of him and set his head straight. Get your butt to camp, continue to perform and make it so that the organization has no other choice except to give you the raise you feel you are entitled to. If you or I pulled this type of action, we would definitely be told to "Not Let The Door Hit You On The Ass As You Leave."

 

Conversely, there is no "This guy isn't doing nearly as good as his salary would indicate, but he's not bad enough to cut".

 

For instance, Muhsin Muhammad every year of his contract with the Bears.

 

It's gotta be a two way street. If the millionaire athletes are going to cry about being underpaid when they do better than expected, they need to realize that ownership will want to lessen the salary if the player starts crapping the bed.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

Shame on you Devin!

 

Devin's got to realize that 1 man doesn't make a team. He's exciting and does deserve more money, but that time was definately going to come at least next year if not at some point before were the Bears can access his development as a WR.

 

The Bears have all the leverage and the point that hurts the most is the Bears DO want to take care of him, they just don't know the right amount. He is only hurting himself by not being with his teammates, learning the offense, and showing the fans that he is more about the money that becoming a better football player.

 

I think the Bears will be OK if DH really wants to play hardball. They have drafted plenty of talent that has return ability: Daniel Manning, Garrett Wolfe, Nathan Vasher are all capable. I believe the system has a little more to do with all the success b/c Azumah and Wade have both had successful return career.

 

Hopefully Devin arrives with or without the contract and can put his feelings behind him. His day will come and by the sounds of it, the Bears have been really working hard on getting it done.

[BigDaddy]

Shame on you Devin!

 

Devin's got to realize that 1 man doesn't make a team. He's exciting and does deserve more money, but that time was definately going to come at least next year if not at some point before were the Bears can access his development as a WR.

 

The Bears have all the leverage and the point that hurts the most is the Bears DO want to take care of him, they just don't know the right amount. He is only hurting himself by not being with his teammates, learning the offense, and showing the fans that he is more about the money that becoming a better football player.

 

I think the Bears will be OK if DH really wants to play hardball. They have drafted plenty of talent that has return ability: Daniel Manning, Garrett Wolfe, Nathan Vasher are all capable. I believe the system has a little more to do with all the success b/c Azumah and Wade have both had successful return career.

 

Hopefully Devin arrives with or without the contract and can put his feelings behind him. His day will come and by the sounds of it, the Bears have been really working hard on getting it done.

 

 

What he is going to find out is that Bear management does a pretty good job of taking care of their players but they will not negotiate until he gets to camp so if he thinks he's accomplishing anything but screwing up his chance at becoming a WR or pissing Chicago fans off, he's dumber than I thought. And that's pretty dumb. He's has taken Urlacher off the fan hotseat so I'm sure Urlacher is happy. But he is being a selfish prick. No, not for wanting more money. i think everyone understands that he deserves it, but the amount is completely out of line. We've all seen what Cribbs is making. Is hester that much better? Hell, there are people who would argue that Cribbs is a better return man. His money is a fraction of what this moron is asking for.

[chitownman]

Conversely, there is no "This guy isn't doing nearly as good as his salary would indicate, but he's not bad enough to cut".

 

For instance, Muhsin Muhammad every year of his contract with the Bears.

 

It's gotta be a two way street. If the millionaire athletes are going to cry about being underpaid when they do better than expected, they need to realize that ownership will want to lessen the salary.

 

 

Jason, re-read the comment that I made. I said nothing about cutting Devin. Just pointed out that if you or I attempted this with an employer, we would be shown the door.

[bradjock]

I do not blame him for wanting a raise.

 

Hell, I want a raise, and I assure you I deserve one.

 

However, his agent was in negotiations with the Bears, they were working out a deal, there is no reason to sit out of camp and disrupt the team, he is being a self centered jerk.

 

Does he really think this will make the Bears more responsive to his requests?

 

You do not piss off the boss if you are looking for a raise.

 

I am sure Smith & Angelo are not amused.

 

I agree Pix. Angelo said they were in the middle of negotiations and that this came as a bit of a surprise. I hope like hell we extend him but holding your breath until you turn blue is not a good way to get things done.

 

Realistically, Hester doesn't have a leg to stand on. PFT is reporting that he must report by August 5th & he'll lose $15,000 a day.

 

I just hope this blows over fairly quickly.

[chitownman]

Thing about the business world. Lets say I want to get paid more, there is a good chance that I'll go interview elsewhere and leverage the higher offers to get a raise at my current employer. The bottom line is that raises aren't necessarily given to the best performances, sure if you perform well you'll get a raise, but in most instances in the business world there becomes the point where to maximize your raise you have to do other things to gain leverage (ie, interview elsewhere and tell the firm hey, I got other options). In the NFL world, that leverage can be to hold-out (hey, you pay me like crap, I just won't play).

 

 

DBDB, you have to make sure that you do have an offer and enough leverage to do what you are saying. Either way, if you are just bluffing the current employer will basically call it and walk you out the door. If you have the new job, then you move on to the new company. Either way if you violate the terms of the contract, there are and will be legal reprocussions from making these type of decisions.

[Connorbear]

The Bears were working on his extensin. He has no right to hold out in my opinion. Therefore, fine him every day he misses, stop all negotiations with his agent, and he can pout all he wants. If he wants the Bears to work with him he can get his arse back in camp. Screw him!

Agreed. Get into camp and we will start negotiations again. This is absolutely the wrong thing to do at this time.

 

Peace

[AZ54]

I'd let him sit. While I would like to see Hester improve as a WR last year he didn't even know the plays. He's seen the Bears do a great job of taking care of their own players and apparently that doesn't mean much to him. No WR money until he proves he can be a consistently good WR. If he wants to be the top paid KR/PR in the league we can do that.

 

As far as his leverage I don't' think he has a ton of it. Skipping camp will not help him to prove he can be a starting WR in this league. As far as the Bears are concerned he already knows how to return kicks so if he misses all of camp and doesn't practice returns it's no big deal. IMO missing time only hurts his bargaining power for the WR money.

[Connorbear]

I'd let him sit. While I would like to see Hester improve as a WR last year he didn't even know the plays. He's seen the Bears do a great job of taking care of their own players and apparently that doesn't mean much to him. No WR money until he proves he can be a consistently good WR. If he wants to be the top paid KR/PR in the league we can do that.

 

As far as his leverage I don't' think he has a ton of it. Skipping camp will not help him to prove he can be a starting WR in this league. As far as the Bears are concerned he already knows how to return kicks so if he misses all of camp and doesn't practice returns it's no big deal. IMO missing time only hurts his bargaining power for the WR money.

Doesn't he also have several advertising deals as well? I can't imagine a long hold out would sit well with those companies.

 

Peace

[azbearsfan]

I wonder if Devin is going to give all those scrubs who block for him a big chunk of that cash. What about the Jamar Williams and the Nick Roaches who put their bodies on the line for him to have all those nifty lanes for him to dance. Just like a back is only as good as his line, a return man is only as good as his blockers and coach.

[ParkerBear7]

hester does deserve a raise for the impact he has on games. I also agree that the bears should not negotiate with a player who is under contract unless he is in camp. Hester is only positioning himself for an injury if he holds out of camp and that certainly would not help his career nor the bears.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

"How can a man live these days on 440K?"

 

Good thought, Devin. You deserve a raise however this is a stupid time to ask for one, as said by many people here.

 

I do not blame him for wanting a raise.

 

Hell, I want a raise, and I assure you I deserve one.

 

However, his agent was in negotiations with the Bears, they were working out a deal, there is no reason to sit out of camp and disrupt the team, he is being a self centered jerk.

 

Does he really think this will make the Bears more responsive to his requests?

 

You do not piss off the boss if you are looking for a raise.

 

I am sure Smith & Angelo are not amused.

Don't even respond. Just another useful, good post by Bears88.

[jason]

Yes, shame on Hester for wanting his money he deserves.

 

How does he deserve more money?

 

He may be the best ST player in the league, but right now that's basically all he is. AND, he's still under contract for TWO MORE YEARS.

 

He should STFU, show up to camp, and let the negotiations take place like they have for the other players. Holding out of camp just makes him look like a greedy asswipe (like most players).

[Mongo3451]

From the Sun Times

"My thoughts inside the quote will be bold"

 

"And he's ready to call general manager Jerry Angelo's bluff that the organization will not negotiate with players who are AWOL.

 

''That's what they said to get me to start coming to OTAs,'' Hester told the Sun-Times on Wednesday. ''It's time for me to take a stand. We're going to stand by our decision to do this, and we feel like this can go down to whenever in the season or the end of the season. No matter what.'' These comments will have to be spun somehow. He's basically calling Angelo out.

 

Perhaps Hester was tuned into the radio to gauge public reaction to a decision that stunned the Bears.

 

''I would say 95 percent of Chicago fans are saying why not reward a player that's been here two years and has contributed to the team in the ways I have,'' he said. Now he's trying to make himself the underdog in this battle.

 

Angelo spoke with Hester's agent, Eugene Parker, on Monday, when Parker floated the idea that Hester might boycott camp. The Bears didn't take the suggestion seriously, but they are now after placing Hester on the reserved-did not report list. Parker did not return calls seeking comment. Isn't Eugene Parker in good standing with Angelo? This puzzles me that this tactic is coming out of his camp, leaving me to believe Hester is acting on his own here.

''Usually when you say, 'Hey, it's over, take it or leave it, we're out of money,' you might get a reaction like that,'' Angelo said. ''But as you're continuing on in negotiations as we have been, it is surprising."

IE: JA's pissed.

All told, we all know Hester has outplayed his contract. JA has a policy of NOT re-negotiating with 2 plus years remaining, but has shown a willingness to compromise to reward the elite of team. (Urlacher and potentially Hester)

 

Here's what I think Hester should have done through his agent: Have Parker contact Angelo to come up with a PR spin as to why Devin is not in camp, with the agreement that he would not return until a deal was hammered out. Maybe this happened and Angelo hung up the phone. Anyway, we all know how JA likes to lowball to start negotiations off. Maybe that was enough to send Hester off the deep end. I'm really stuck in the middle of this issue.

 

We've all talked about how unique Devins contract would have to be. I really don't want hear any crap about him being paid special team money. Regardless of position, he was aguably our MVP the last two seasons and an elite player. I don't believe for a second that the scheme or support personnel is what makes him great. He is naturally great. He is the best I've ever seen.(Including Dieon) If he's going into camp as a #1 reciever and the best return man ever, I have no problem paying him as a top reciever. That's how I'm on Devin's side.

 

On the other hand, If I'm JA; I've been called to task by a 3rd year player being represented by an agent that I've always gotten good work done with. I'm hot as hell and have to make a stand and save face. So I tell him we'll get you a fair deal after you get your ass back in camp. Hester needs to accept the scolding and apologize to get his payday.

[selection7]

The Bears don't redo contracts with multiple years left on them. Angelo has made that clear...save for an understandable exception where a NINE-year contract was signed, lol. Not only that. Hester is one year removed from being a rookie. Everyone knows rookies don't get to renegotiate because they "outplayed" their contract. Not only that, but Hester is making 2nd round draft pick money. That's not chump change for a rookie contract.

 

I suppose if you ignore precedent there's probably an argument for someone like Hester, though having just barely started his NFL career, being able to renegotiate, but if the Bears set the precedent on that, Angelo is screwed. His bread and butter is getting valuable production out of 2-4th rounders on the cheap. ...some other GM or owner, maybe, but I can't see Angelo shooting himself in the foot like that.

 

In the meantime, kickoff returner is a position that you can plug someone into relatively easily, so with our great special teams blocking, our return game should still be good without him and when he finally gives in, he can step back in without too much fuss. A Hester holdout doesn't worry me. I still haven't seen enough out of him at WR to to be much more than hopefull about that project.

[Mongo3451]

name='selection7' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:56 AM' post='42001']

The Bears don't redo contracts with multiple years left on them. Angelo has made that clear...

Wrong. The Bears have been negotiating with Hester on a new contract. Angelo and Hester both made that clear. Hester is that unique and Angelo knows that.

 

In the meantime, kickoff returner is a position that you can plug someone into relatively easily, so with our great special teams blocking, our return game should still be good without him and when he finally gives in, he can step back in without too much fuss. A Hester holdout doesn't worry me. I still haven't seen enough out of him at WR to to be much more than hopefull about that project.

As I've said before, the scheme doesn't make Hester great, he makes the scheme great. Tell me this: How bad would have our scoring output been without Hester? Count the TD's and the field position. How many field goals did he enable us to get? I'm not saying give into his demands, because he has put Angelo in a position to where he can't give in. It doesn't mean it's not going to have an impact on our team though. My guess is that it will work itself out with Hester eating a humble pie then getting his money.

[azbearsfan]

Wrong. The Bears have been negotiating with Hester on a new contract. Angelo and Hester both made that clear. Hester is that unique and Angelo knows that.

 

As I've said before, the scheme doesn't make Hester great, he makes the scheme great. Tell me this: How bad would have our scoring output been without Hester? Count the TD's and the field position. How many field goals did he enable us to get? I'm not saying give into his demands, because he has put Angelo in a position to where he can't give in. It doesn't mean it's not going to have an impact on our team though. My guess is that it will work itself out with Hester eating a humble pie then getting his money.

 

 

Have to disagree here.

If Booby Wade was returning kicks before Hester, then scheme has alot to do with it.

 

Dont get me wrong Hester is pretty awesome, but he aint worth more than $1.5 mil a year until he shows he can be a great WR.

[nfoligno]

$1.5m/yr?

 

Okay, I think Hester is just plain stupid for this holdout. I think he is not worth (today) #1 WR money, as he wants. But not worth more than $1.5 per year? Come on. Backups who do nothing more than pull splinters out of their arces make that much and more.

 

I personally think Hester today is worth average #2 WR money. While he has not proven himself as a WR, his contributions to the offense as a returner are pretty damn profound. He scores as many TDs as any of our receivers. He puts the offense in good/great field position, either due to a return or a team kicking away from him.

 

So, in my eyes, there is no question Hester is due a raise, and is worth WR money. But saying a player is worth WR money is a far cry from whether you are talking #1 WR money or average number two. His return ability combined w/ his WR potential, and our expectations of him at WR, IMHO equals average #2 WR money (not talking Boldin or Housyourmama).

 

But that is not what Hester wants. Hester wants #1 money, and for him to get that, he needs to prove he can play WR. IMHO, if Hester can prove himself a solid starting WR, that would be enough (w/ his return ability) to get #1 WR money. He doesn't have to be a #1 WR to get that money, but does have to prove he can play the freaking position first.

[CrackerDog]

But that is not what Hester wants. Hester wants #1 money, and for him to get that, he needs to prove he can play WR. IMHO, if Hester can prove himself a solid starting WR, that would be enough (w/ his return ability) to get #1 WR money. He doesn't have to be a #1 WR to get that money, but does have to prove he can play the freaking position first.

 

I agree. I think the solution is an incentive laden contract. If he does what he says he can and he accomplishes what we all hope he accomplishes, we're happy and he's rich. If he's just a great ST player, so be it. He'll be the best at that and earn #2 WR money. It shouldn't be difficult to reach agreement on this with JA and Hester's agent. If they push it harder I think the Bears will likely tell them to pound sand.

 

PS. I personally don't see Hester ever getting there at WR but I hope like hell I'm wrong.

[madlithuanian]

Agreed! We can certainly argue what the price should be given all the unknowns of the WR element...but for a potential hall of famer return man, $1.5M a year is beyond a bargain!

 

 

$1.5m/yr?

 

Okay, I think Hester is just plain stupid for this holdout. I think he is not worth (today) #1 WR money, as he wants. But not worth more than $1.5 per year? Come on. Backups who do nothing more than pull splinters out of their arces make that much and more.

 

I personally think Hester today is worth average #2 WR money. While he has not proven himself as a WR, his contributions to the offense as a returner are pretty damn profound. He scores as many TDs as any of our receivers. He puts the offense in good/great field position, either due to a return or a team kicking away from him.

 

So, in my eyes, there is no question Hester is due a raise, and is worth WR money. But saying a player is worth WR money is a far cry from whether you are talking #1 WR money or average number two. His return ability combined w/ his WR potential, and our expectations of him at WR, IMHO equals average #2 WR money (not talking Boldin or Housyourmama).

 

But that is not what Hester wants. Hester wants #1 money, and for him to get that, he needs to prove he can play WR. IMHO, if Hester can prove himself a solid starting WR, that would be enough (w/ his return ability) to get #1 WR money. He doesn't have to be a #1 WR to get that money, but does have to prove he can play the freaking position first.

[nfoligno]

Incentives are always thrown out there by fans, but rarely is that very logical solution what players/agents accept. Players and agents want the big guaranteed bucks.

 

Regarding Hester, I too do not see him ever becoming a #1 WR, or another Steve Smith. I think he is a WR that can provide some explosive, highlight reel plays, but I just do not see him bringing the consistent level of play you see from #1 WRs. The further problem is, I do not think we have the surrounding talent to develop him as a WR. If we had a great veteran QB, and a competant OC, then maybe I could see more potential in him at WR, but w/ what/who we have? We have a hard enough time developing WRs who know how to play WR, much less develop a player who still has to learn the position.

[madlithuanian]

On a side note...we just need to send him long on every play and pull at least one CB and S away from the play. The moment the stop covering him, we throw it deep... One in a whle we do an end around... Other than that, fly away!

 

 

 

Incentives are always thrown out there by fans, but rarely is that very logical solution what players/agents accept. Players and agents want the big guaranteed bucks.

 

Regarding Hester, I too do not see him ever becoming a #1 WR, or another Steve Smith. I think he is a WR that can provide some explosive, highlight reel plays, but I just do not see him bringing the consistent level of play you see from #1 WRs. The further problem is, I do not think we have the surrounding talent to develop him as a WR. If we had a great veteran QB, and a competant OC, then maybe I could see more potential in him at WR, but w/ what/who we have? We have a hard enough time developing WRs who know how to play WR, much less develop a player who still has to learn the position.

[azbearsfan]

$1.5m/yr?

 

Okay, I think Hester is just plain stupid for this holdout. I think he is not worth (today) #1 WR money, as he wants. But not worth more than $1.5 per year? Come on. Backups who do nothing more than pull splinters out of their arces make that much and more.

 

I personally think Hester today is worth average #2 WR money. While he has not proven himself as a WR, his contributions to the offense as a returner are pretty damn profound. He scores as many TDs as any of our receivers. He puts the offense in good/great field position, either due to a return or a team kicking away from him.

 

So, in my eyes, there is no question Hester is due a raise, and is worth WR money. But saying a player is worth WR money is a far cry from whether you are talking #1 WR money or average number two. His return ability combined w/ his WR potential, and our expectations of him at WR, IMHO equals average #2 WR money (not talking Boldin or Housyourmama).

 

But that is not what Hester wants. Hester wants #1 money, and for him to get that, he needs to prove he can play WR. IMHO, if Hester can prove himself a solid starting WR, that would be enough (w/ his return ability) to get #1 WR money. He doesn't have to be a #1 WR to get that money, but does have to prove he can play the freaking position first.

 

 

 

Sorry. I disagree. He is not even a good number 2 receiver right now. If you want to make him the highest paid return man in the game, fine. But you can't pay that guy as a receiver until he proves it.

 

The only reason he had as good a year as he did last year is because of the stupidity and ego of some coaches. With the horse crap offense the Bears had, he should have been kicked to never.

 

So, if he gets kicked to at all this year it will be a mistake.

 

 

So I ask you this, if he never gets his hands on a ball because they keep it away from him and they offense doesn't take advantage because its bad, is he worth the money.

Part of me thinks that he wants his deal because he and his agent know that they will not be kicked to and he will show that he cannot be a big time WR in the league. He needs to get his money now while the striking is hot.

[CrackerDog]

Incentives are always thrown out there by fans, but rarely is that very logical solution what players/agents accept. Players and agents want the big guaranteed bucks.

 

They need to get there. This is a very unusual circumstance. There aren't any "comps" out there for Hester.

[nfoligno]

Sounds nice, but...

 

(1) We hit Berrian deep once in a while, and that did nothing to make defenses play us honest. Until we start connecting deep on a more consistent basis, defenses are not going to alter how they defend us.

 

(2) as nice as it sounds, if you simply send Hester deep all the time (a) it makes him easier to defend, as defenses can simply play way off him and ( your going to kill him making him run nothing but a bunch of 40s.