nfoligno Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Hey, you are preaching to the choir, but the reality is, while we as fans always talk about incentive laiden deals, how often do players go for that? Sure, they have incentives thrown into their deals, but those incentives are an extra, not the meat of the deal, which is basically what you are proposing. Hester would probably say, "yea, I'll take a deal like Berrian got, and you can then add incentives to make it a deal w/ the potential of Fitzgerald's". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerDog Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Hester would probably say, "yea, I'll take a deal like Berrian got, and you can then add incentives to make it a deal w/ the potential of Fitzgerald's". He can't say that because he hasn't come close to proving he's a Berrian yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bears 88 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 He can't say that because he hasn't come close to proving he's a Berrian yet. Yeah, and the Vikings payed Berrian #1 WR money in which he's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 1. Never said he was even a good number 2 WR right now. He isn't even a proven #3. I never said different. But I would argue his contribution to the offense is about equal to that of an average #2 WR. Let's say you have a #2 WR who gets you about 60 catches for 750 yards and 5 TDs. You do not think the contribution Hester's play provides that much? What does a WR do? He tries to help the offense move the ball downfield. If, because of Hester, we start at the 40 instead of the 20, has he not accomplished the same feat? 2. You ask if he didn't return another ball because teams kicked away from him, would he still have the value. I would argue recent history has proven that no matter how insane it may seem, coaches will continue to kick to him. W/ that said, he would absolutely still have value. Take Barry Bonds. If he never hit another home run because every time he came up to bat, he was walked, would he still not have value? The team has to put a potential run on base to avoid the home run, similar to how opponents would have to put us in better scoring position just to avoid the home run return. 3. You ask if his value is the same if the offense can never take advantage of the field position he provides. Again, absolutely. If you defense sucks, do you value the punter who pinned then at the 2 any less? No. I would further argue that, even if our offense doesn't step up and take advantage, that field position helps the defense keep the games close. Lets say we start at the 40, rather than the 20, which we have seen all too often, whether due to a return or pooch kick. Now the offense goes 3 and out. From the 40, you have a chance to pin the opponent deep in their own territory. From your own 20 though, they are more likely to start closer to mid field than their own end zone. That puts greater pressure on your defense. I agree he should not be paid like a #1 WR. At the same time, I simply do not think you realize the value he brings to the team solely as a returner. You say pay him more than any other returner, but that is even questionable, as no other returner has had close to the impact to compare to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hochuli 3:16 Posted July 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Yeah, and the Vikings payed Berrian #1 WR money in which he's not. Captain Short-Post, instead of bashing others for their ideas by posting 5 word 1 sentence posts, go more into detail. What's your solution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 I guess there is a difference in what we consider #1 money. Did Berrian get #1 money? Sure. But it was not the high end #1 money like Fitz just got, or others have, or others are likely to get. Berrian got paid #1 money, but I don't think it was high end #1. Again, I am just saying what I think Hester's agent would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Hasn't he? Last year, Hester had 8 TDs to Berrian's 5. The year before, they both had 6. Last year, Berrian had 71 catches for 950 yards. Hester had 20 catches for 300 yards PLUS 43 KO returns for 934 yards PLUS 42 punt returns for 650 yards. Combined, Hester had 105 touches for just under 1,900 yards. Yea, return yards scew the numbers, but at the same time, the point is Hester role/contribution did as much for the offense, IMHO, as Berrian. On a more consistent basis, Hester helped the field position of the offense. While Berrian would go possessions w/o so much as a catch, Berrian always started our possessions w/ good field position (except after a turnover). If Hester started us at the 40 instead of the 20, is that really any different from a WR that catches 2 for 20 to get us to the 40? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 1. True enough... 2. I kind of put it up there in some jest. I was thinking that he keeps doing it, then pulls up once in a while,etc... But I'm not sure our coaching staff can handle anything other than "go deep"... And at least it makes more sense than pounding Wolfe up the middle... Sounds nice, but... (1) We hit Berrian deep once in a while, and that did nothing to make defenses play us honest. Until we start connecting deep on a more consistent basis, defenses are not going to alter how they defend us. (2) as nice as it sounds, if you simply send Hester deep all the time (a) it makes him easier to defend, as defenses can simply play way off him and ( your going to kill him making him run nothing but a bunch of 40s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerDog Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Hasn't he? Last year, Hester had 8 TDs to Berrian's 5. The year before, they both had 6. Last year, Berrian had 71 catches for 950 yards. Hester had 20 catches for 300 yards PLUS 43 KO returns for 934 yards PLUS 42 punt returns for 650 yards. Combined, Hester had 105 touches for just under 1,900 yards. Yea, return yards scew the numbers, but at the same time, the point is Hester role/contribution did as much for the offense, IMHO, as Berrian. On a more consistent basis, Hester helped the field position of the offense. While Berrian would go possessions w/o so much as a catch, Berrian always started our possessions w/ good field position (except after a turnover). If Hester started us at the 40 instead of the 20, is that really any different from a WR that catches 2 for 20 to get us to the 40? First, use the quote button so people know who the hell you're talking to. Dillweed. That's an order! OK, now that we've got that covered... You're making the point that he deserves at least #2 WR money. I believe if you scan up you'll see I set that as a baseline as well. We agree on the starting point. My whole disagreement with you rests on whether JA can make an agent (and his client) see that the upside to #1 WR money must be proven. And even if agents don't like incentive deals (which I'm not conceding) you and Hester have to realize that he hasn't got a leg to stand on. If the Bears decide to force him to play under his current agreement, he either plays or sits. And this can last for three years (or even longer if PFT is correct about his needing to report by August 5th.) So, I'd suggest he has to at least meet the Bears halfway. We agree the kid deserves a new deal but it has to reflect that pure ST players aren't rewarded in the league and his upside in pay has to be tied to his continued upside in development at WR. That may not be fair but it's a reality connected to the salary cap. This is beyond the control of the Bears. Teams can't tie up a ton of money and a roster spot on pure ST players. They can have guys who are specialists in this area but they don't usuallly get paid very well. By the way, it's Hester and his agent that are making the comparison to WR money. I think it's fair for the Bears to ask him to prove he can actually play the position consistently if that's what he wants to be called and paid as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 1. Never said he was even a good number 2 WR right now. He isn't even a proven #3. I never said different. But I would argue his contribution to the offense is about equal to that of an average #2 WR. Let's say you have a #2 WR who gets you about 60 catches for 750 yards and 5 TDs. You do not think the contribution Hester's play provides that much? What does a WR do? He tries to help the offense move the ball downfield. If, because of Hester, we start at the 40 instead of the 20, has he not accomplished the same feat? 2. You ask if he didn't return another ball because teams kicked away from him, would he still have the value. I would argue recent history has proven that no matter how insane it may seem, coaches will continue to kick to him. W/ that said, he would absolutely still have value. Take Barry Bonds. If he never hit another home run because every time he came up to bat, he was walked, would he still not have value? The team has to put a potential run on base to avoid the home run, similar to how opponents would have to put us in better scoring position just to avoid the home run return. 3. You ask if his value is the same if the offense can never take advantage of the field position he provides. Again, absolutely. If you defense sucks, do you value the punter who pinned then at the 2 any less? No. I would further argue that, even if our offense doesn't step up and take advantage, that field position helps the defense keep the games close. Lets say we start at the 40, rather than the 20, which we have seen all too often, whether due to a return or pooch kick. Now the offense goes 3 and out. From the 40, you have a chance to pin the opponent deep in their own territory. From your own 20 though, they are more likely to start closer to mid field than their own end zone. That puts greater pressure on your defense. I agree he should not be paid like a #1 WR. At the same time, I simply do not think you realize the value he brings to the team solely as a returner. You say pay him more than any other returner, but that is even questionable, as no other returner has had close to the impact to compare to. 1. I think Hester provides alot. I also think he is overvalued because of the offense team he is on. Two years ago when the offense was rolling nobody was calling for him to be the MVP of the team. Now last year, the team is not very good and he is putting on a show, now he needs to be the MVP and get his big money. Really he should be happy he is getting paid as he is, because he was projected as a 4th rounder. JA reached for him and two years into it he wants to redeal. Sorry. Prove yourself at WR. 2. Seriously??? Barry Bonds vs Hester. First of all different sports. Try comparing Walter to Hester. No comparison. Second of all, Barry is a hall of fame player who has broken numerous records, has a lifetime average over .300, has had 40/40 seasons, won gold gloves, and took roids. Hester just completed his second year in the league and, for all intensive purposes, is a one trick pony. Check back in in ten years and if Hester has returned 8 TD a year over a 12 year period then I will give this one to ya. 3. I think the point is who cares if you have a punter who pins with a defense who gets rolled. Would you trade that punter for defense help? Who cares where the offense starts if they aren't going to score? A front line WR would be much more valuable than Hester at this point. You have people on the other thread stating they would trade Hester for Chad Johnson and a first, second , and third. Are you kidding? Chad Johnson alone would be a steal and help the team much more. I would be just fine with Vasher returning kicks and Chad in the endzone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerDog Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 A front line WR would be much more valuable than Hester at this point. You have people on the other thread stating they would trade Hester for Chad Johnson and a first, second , and third. Are you kidding? Chad Johnson alone would be a steal and help the team much more. I would be just fine with Vasher returning kicks and Chad in the endzone. I agree. Although, Palmer at QB makes Chad what he is. Gross/ton still needs to prove that having good WR's on this team isn't like putting earrings on a pig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 I agree, comparing Bonds to Hester is proposterous! Hester doesn't cheat! 1. I think Hester provides alot. I also think he is overvalued because of the offense team he is on. Two years ago when the offense was rolling nobody was calling for him to be the MVP of the team. Now last year, the team is not very good and he is putting on a show, now he needs to be the MVP and get his big money. Really he should be happy he is getting paid as he is, because he was projected as a 4th rounder. JA reached for him and two years into it he wants to redeal. Sorry. Prove yourself at WR. 2. Seriously??? Barry Bonds vs Hester. First of all different sports. Try comparing Walter to Hester. No comparison. Second of all, Barry is a hall of fame player who has broken numerous records, has a lifetime average over .300, has had 40/40 seasons, won gold gloves, and took roids. Hester just completed his second year in the league and, for all intensive purposes, is a one trick pony. Check back in in ten years and if Hester has returned 8 TD a year over a 12 year period then I will give this one to ya. 3. I think the point is who cares if you have a punter who pins with a defense who gets rolled. Would you trade that punter for defense help? Who cares where the offense starts if they aren't going to score? A front line WR would be much more valuable than Hester at this point. You have people on the other thread stating they would trade Hester for Chad Johnson and a first, second , and third. Are you kidding? Chad Johnson alone would be a steal and help the team much more. I would be just fine with Vasher returning kicks and Chad in the endzone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 I agree, comparing Bonds to Hester is proposterous! Hester doesn't cheat! lol Except on his college exams. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Ha! Although I'm certain he didn't graduate! lol Except on his college exams. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Ha! Although I'm certain he didn't graduate! You are right. He came out early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune....-camp-da-1.html Bears camp: Day 2 Bears fans, welcome to our running blog from Bears training camp. The posts are from Tribune reporters Vaughn McClure and David Haugh. Let's go ... 3:45 p.m. Bears general manager Jerry Angelo, sitting at the ESPN 1000 radio both here, said Devin Hester will be rewarded and that the team understands his value. I'll bet you skirts that he gets #1 money. I'll eat crow pie if he doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 I'll bet you skirts that he gets #1 money. I'll eat crow pie if he doesn't. Then JA is a moron. Its not too bright to tie up that kind of money into someone who hasn't proven it on offense yet and only is great on ST. Teams could and have made it very difficult for him to touch the ball at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 name='azbearsfan' date='Jul 24 2008, 05:02 PM' post='42098'] Then JA is a moron. Its not too bright to tie up that kind of money into someone who hasn't proven it on offense yet and only is great on ST. Teams could and have made it very difficult for him to touch the ball at all. I would the internet critics like us are the morons before a man who's made his life's living at it. So, if you are right I'm the moron. But, if not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 I would the internet critics like us are the morons before a man who's made his life's living at it. So, if you are right I'm the moron. But, if not... Maybe Moron is too strong a word, but paying someone for what they are not isn't logical to me. If he wants #1 money let him earn it the next two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selection7 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Wrong. The Bears have been negotiating with Hester on a new contract. Angelo and Hester both made that clear. Hester is that unique and Angelo knows that. As I've said before, the scheme doesn't make Hester great, he makes the scheme great. If a new deal gets done, then you can say you're right. Until then, it's not going to happen as far as I'm concerned. JA has never done it before so the only way he could pull it off without "shooting himself in the foot" is to redo the contract in a way that favors the Bears and then make media statements afterwards about how Hester is an exception. Hester might hold out, but like Briggs, he'll likely have to wait for a new deal. BTW, the scheme, the blockers, and Hester make the special teams incredible. And of course Hester is super valuable, but returner is just not a position you can hold a team hostage at...unless he's willing to sit out the whole year, which i'm sure he's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hochuli 3:16 Posted July 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Hester says he'll sit out all year if he has to. Chicago Bears wide receiver and kick returner Devin Hester surprised coaches and team executives when he didn't show up for the first day of training camp, and now he says he's prepared to hold out all season, the Chicago Sun-Times reports. ''It's time for me to take a stand," Hester told the newspaper. We're going to stand by our decision to do this, and we feel like this can go down to whenever in the season or the end of the season. No matter what.'' sportingnews.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 Hester says he'll sit out all year if he has to. sportingnews.com "In fact, sources say the Bears already have offered to make him the highest-paid returner in league history, with incentives to pay him significantly more if he continues to develop as a receiver. " Seems fair to me. Make him earn it. It also says in the same article that if he doesn't report by Aug 5th he will have to play another year before becoming a free agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Bears 88 Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 Look, i'm not one of JA's biggest fans. But, if he gives Hester #1 WR money, then so be it. That way, Hester can STFU and just play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 Has anyone considered this? We all kinda agree he has not proved he is a number 1 WR. He wants to be paid as a number 1 WR. He knows the Bears take care of their own. He knows they were in negotiations trying to get a contract completed. Yet, knowing he was going to line up with the number 1 offense in practice and have a chance to prove himself as a number one WR he decided to holdout. Now why would he do that? The only answer I can come up with is he did not want to take a chance and prove he WAS NOT a number 1 WR through his show in practice. If he was confident he was indeed a number 1 WR all he had to do was go out there and show his stuff, dazzle everyone with his skills as a number 1 WR. He then increases his value in negotiations and if the Bears do not pony up he then has leverage by holding out. Seems to me he wants to have the Bears pay but does not want to prove a thing, just pay me the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 Good points Pix! I could see that... However, one thing I've really been thinking about is a fear of him getting injured. He's a pretty small guy that has been known to get pretty whallopped... I wonder if it stems from a fear of getting injured to a point he can no longer play. Get the money now... I have a feeling the truth lies in the middle. Has anyone considered this? We all kinda agree he has not proved he is a number 1 WR. He wants to be paid as a number 1 WR. He knows the Bears take care of their own. He knows they were in negotiations trying to get a contract completed. Yet, knowing he was going to line up with the number 1 offense in practice and have a chance to prove himself as a number one WR he decided to holdout. Now why would he do that? The only answer I can come up with is he did not want to take a chance and prove he WAS NOT a number 1 WR through his show in practice. If he was confident he was indeed a number 1 WR all he had to do was go out there and show his stuff, dazzle everyone with his skills as a number 1 WR. He then increases his value in negotiations and if the Bears do not pony up he then has leverage by holding out. Seems to me he wants to have the Bears pay but does not want to prove a thing, just pay me the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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