DABEARSDABOMB Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 azbearsfan and a few other folks unconditionally support Rex. There is an excuse ready to go on every potential criticism of Grossman. Which is all good and fair. I woudn't be happier if these supporters were actually correct. Seeing Rex actually mature and become a legit QB would be the grandest thing to happen for the Bears. The problem is I'm a realist. I've been watching this game and this team far too long to think we have a legit QB in Rex. While I'm not sure we have on in Orton, there is at least some mystery surrounding him. If given the 1st team weapons, some more experience, etc could Kyle become a legit QB? I sure as heck don't know, but I'd sure like to find out. Will people at least admit that Rex did show signs of improvement during his second stint last year. OF course I still fully believe he was unfairly benched early last season. I'm not saying Rex didn't play well, but the play of the oline and more specifically the absolutely horrendous poor calling (and costly drops) absolutely killed Rex. Rex is by far the best QB on the roster and I think he'll prove it during training camp and more so in the preseason games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DABEARSDABOMB Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 The 60.7% completion percentage with 3090 yards. He must have skip passed those 31 tds to his receivers. Oh and he was so innaccurate he threw 5 whole ints. Where the mighty Rex Grossman's best college season he had a super accurate completion percentage of 54.6% with 3193 yards. His 23 Td's to 20 Int's shows his superior accuracy as well. However, the individual I was thinking of in regards to the injury was Drew Brees. Orton had some sort of injury in the 2nd half of his big season. However, you can't compare the two's collegiate passing percentages as they played in completely different offenses (well at least to an extent). Both teams relied heavily on the pass, but Orton's offense was largely related to short quick passes where as Rex offense involved a lot more down field plays (and thus a great incompletion percentage). In fact, you won't find one scout in the NFL who will tell you that Orton is a more accurate passer than Rex. That much I can guarantee you. Rex is very very accurate, the problem is more with his reads and vision (which hurts him when it comes to the shorter routes). Hell I don't even think his reads are the problem, I think his issue with picks stems more from him being short and having poor pocket presence than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 I have looked at the stats, and you totally glossed over my point. The point is not whether each throw picks, but how Rex bunched them so much. Throwing a pick in a game is not good, obviously, but rarely the end of the world. Throwing a bunch of picks though? That is big. When Rex was throwing 3 picks in a game, he has negated any good he has done. Regarding Orton's "magical rookie year", I have actually argued otherwise. I don't give him a ton of credit. Yea, he was a rookie and didn't make a massive amount of mistakes, but he did nothing to help the team either. If you do not throw a pick, but at the same time simply go 3 and out, well, both suck. I am not arguing against that. Still, for me, what I think it comes down to is this. I simply do not believe Rex has it upstairs. When things are going good, he can really roll. But when things start to go back, the floor falls out. Rex doesn't seem to me to be capable of forgetting that last bad play and moving on. That is a death note for a QB. Is Orton different? Don't know. But I'll give him a chance. Understand something. It is NOT that I think Orton is so good. It's that I think Rex is so bad. Orton may be as addicted to potato chips as Rex, but we let him open the bag, we won't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Then I apologize...but it does seem that no matter what criticism is thrown at Rex, you rail agaisnt it. Maybe, I'm just mis-interpreting your stauch dislike for Orton as a staunch liking of Rex. I cannot say emphatically that Orton will be better than Rex. I truly do not know. I just want to see it. I know what we have in Rex and we are going nowhere with him. Maybe Orton comes to play once game one is on. If we don't give him a chance, we'll never know. We aren't a very good team with our offense this year...I'd like to give the guy a shot. If he fails, you put Rex in. Then we draft a QB every darn season until we get it freakin right. I'm just sickened by our complete lack of a QB... Put Favre in and I will hurl... He's old and will get punished behind our turnstile O Line... He's on the Madden cover. We get him and he goes down in wwek 2. There you go again Mad. Unconditionally? No. Over Orton? Absolutely yes sir I am a realist too. If we had a better option, I would pick him over Rex. Orton is not a better option, sir. There is no mystery surrounding a qb who looks worse that a high school varsity player. These training camp videos just prove the point. Put Favre on the Bears and I absolutely would not support Rex over him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 I'm not sure. Was it just good Rex for a few games, awaitng a bad Rex in the next few if not put down with an injury? We did play better, but I'm not sure I can 100% say it was an improvement. If by improvement, you mean he played better than he did early in the season, then yes. But if you mean as an overall player that has turend the corner, then I am not certain, and lean on no. I commend your support for Rex, but I just plain old disagree. We have no best QB "by far". Haven't since McMahon with maybe an exception on one year with Kramer. Rex always perfroms well on camp. It's during real games that I care about. And I have not been impressed. Will people at least admit that Rex did show signs of improvement during his second stint last year. OF course I still fully believe he was unfairly benched early last season. I'm not saying Rex didn't play well, but the play of the oline and more specifically the absolutely horrendous poor calling (and costly drops) absolutely killed Rex. Rex is by far the best QB on the roster and I think he'll prove it during training camp and more so in the preseason games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 BINGO! I think his issue with picks stems more from him being short and having poor pocket presence than anything else. Your statement there speaks volumes... Orton had some sort of injury in the 2nd half of his big season. However, you can't compare the two's collegiate passing percentages as they played in completely different offenses (well at least to an extent). Both teams relied heavily on the pass, but Orton's offense was largely related to short quick passes where as Rex offense involved a lot more down field plays (and thus a great incompletion percentage). In fact, you won't find one scout in the NFL who will tell you that Orton is a more accurate passer than Rex. That much I can guarantee you. Rex is very very accurate, the problem is more with his reads and vision (which hurts him when it comes to the shorter routes). Hell I don't even think his reads are the problem, I think his issue with picks stems more from him being short and having poor pocket presence than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Maybe I am confusing the point. I am not trying to say Orton has a great td/int ratio. I am not saying it isn't possible he has just as bad as "bad rex". Frankly, I am not TRYING to say much of anything about Orton. My point is about Rex. If Rex threw one pick per game, I could deal w/ that. My problem is how often one pick leads to two. Two leads to three. And at least once, three leads to four. My problem is w/ Rex, and his seemingly inability to move past one pick (or is it learn from it) and avoid more. Mentally, I just don't think he has it. I remember a time, I believe during SB season, when Rex was playing so bad there was talk of pulling him. Talk mostly by fans. Instead, the staff simply has a sit down w/ him about avoiding the turnovers. Rex went on to have a good game or two, where he looked more in control, but then slipped back into multiple pick throwing form. I just don't think he learns. I am not some big fan of Orton. In fact, I was among the few at the time who didn't even give him (or Turner) that much credit for his rookie year. Sure, he didn't turn it over often, but he didn't move the ball either. His rookie year, defense and special teams won games. I hear about how he didn't lose games, but that doesn't mean he was good. It really doesn't take much to go three and out. But, like you said, that was his rookie year. At minimum, he at least showed some poise and didn't collapse as a rookie. More than anything, I consider Orton an unknown, and simply believe he deserves a chance, which he is getting right now. When it comes down to it, I guess i would go w/ the unknown over the known in this case. The unknown may be as bad, or worse, than the known, but until we try, we won't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GakMan23 Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Will people at least admit that Rex did show signs of improvement during his second stint last year. OF course I still fully believe he was unfairly benched early last season. I'm not saying Rex didn't play well, but the play of the oline and more specifically the absolutely horrendous poor calling (and costly drops) absolutely killed Rex. Rex is by far the best QB on the roster and I think he'll prove it during training camp and more so in the preseason games. Wouldn't that be the same arguement on the NFL level as well as Orton was given a dummied down offense to work with up until the end of last season, while Grossman was given the full playbook to work with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 We can hash out stats all day. Statistically Rex is a better pro. And nfo it doesn't matter if Rex throws picks in bunches cause he also does the same with TD's. Bottom line is that I would rather watch Rex move the ball with the chance of a pick then watch a dink and dunk Shoop like affair with Orton in. I'd rather watch the gunslinger then watch mr 3 and out. I'd rather watch a guy who can hit a long ball in stride then a guy who skips a 12 yard comeback. And I would rather watch a guy who was the last quarterback to get us to the Super Bowl then Mr Mediocre. Doesn't mean I dont get mad when Rex effs up. I do. And Mad if you wouldn't choose Farve over the qb's we have then thats just emotion getting in the way. And Gak, the reason the offense was dummied down is cause Orton was not good enough to handle it. And with a dummied down offense he threw 9 td's and 13 pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 We can hash out stats all day. Statistically Rex is a better pro. And nfo it doesn't matter if Rex throws picks in bunches cause he also does the same with TD's. Bottom line is that I would rather watch Rex move the ball with the chance of a pick then watch a dink and dunk Shoop like affair with Orton in. I'd rather watch the gunslinger then watch mr 3 and out. I'd rather watch a guy who can hit a long ball in stride then a guy who skips a 12 yard comeback. And I would rather watch a guy who was the last quarterback to get us to the Super Bowl then Mr Mediocre. Doesn't mean I dont get mad when Rex effs up. I do. What is more exciting to watch? To me, the excitement is in wins. If our defense was mediocre, than Rex would be the choice as he has more ability to win games. But w/ a dominant defense, we do not necessarily need a QB who can put an offense on his shoulders and win games. I am NOT speaking simply about Orton, but about style. If Orton skips everything, then he is out, but I think you are using a couple throws and making out like that is all he ever does. From the camp reports I have read, he seems to be doing far better than you make out. No question. Rex is a QB who can throw for 3 or 4 TDs in a game. That is awesome. But he is also the sort who seems to be more likely to throw 3 picks the following week. I would rather have a QB who simply throws 200 yards and 1 or 2 TDs than one who throws for 300 yards and 4 TDs one week, followed by 150 yards and 3 picks the next. And Gak, the reason the offense was dummied down is cause Orton was not good enough to handle it. And with a dummied down offense he threw 9 td's and 13 pics. Um, the dude was a rookie, who was not even expected to start. If the OC simply expected Orton to jump full tilt in w/ the entire playbook, he should be fired. I don't care if Orton had the strongest arm in the league, you simply can not ask too much of a rookie QB, especially one who wasn't expected to start, but only did so after your starter went down in camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 We can hash out stats all day. Statistically Rex is a better pro. And nfo it doesn't matter if Rex throws picks in bunches cause he also does the same with TD's. Bottom line is that I would rather watch Rex move the ball with the chance of a pick then watch a dink and dunk Shoop like affair with Orton in. I'd rather watch the gunslinger then watch mr 3 and out. I'd rather watch a guy who can hit a long ball in stride then a guy who skips a 12 yard comeback. And I would rather watch a guy who was the last quarterback to get us to the Super Bowl then Mr Mediocre. Doesn't mean I dont get mad when Rex effs up. I do. What is more exciting to watch? To me, the excitement is in wins. If our defense was mediocre, than Rex would be the choice as he has more ability to win games. But w/ a dominant defense, we do not necessarily need a QB who can put an offense on his shoulders and win games. I am NOT speaking simply about Orton, but about style. If Orton skips everything, then he is out, but I think you are using a couple throws and making out like that is all he ever does. From the camp reports I have read, he seems to be doing far better than you make out. No question. Rex is a QB who can throw for 3 or 4 TDs in a game. That is awesome. But he is also the sort who seems to be more likely to throw 3 picks the following week. I would rather have a QB who simply throws 200 yards and 1 or 2 TDs than one who throws for 300 yards and 4 TDs one week, followed by 150 yards and 3 picks the next. And Gak, the reason the offense was dummied down is cause Orton was not good enough to handle it. And with a dummied down offense he threw 9 td's and 13 pics. Um, the dude was a rookie, who was not even expected to start. If the OC simply expected Orton to jump full tilt in w/ the entire playbook, he should be fired. I don't care if Orton had the strongest arm in the league, you simply can not ask too much of a rookie QB, especially one who wasn't expected to start, but only did so after your starter went down in camp. lol. Good you agree with me, then. Rex got enough wins to get to the SB. Nuff said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 You are correct, but only partially. I hate Favre and don't want him. But I also see a very aging guy that at best will give a team maybe 2 years and continue to dance around reitring every season he plays. I also see having to give up quite a lot to get that. ....and our needs at OL, WR etc will be put way on the back burner either losing picks or players to get him. Thus making him more vulnerable to injury or pressure reulting in more record breaking picks. I just don't think it's worth it for our team right now. We can hash out stats all day. Statistically Rex is a better pro. And nfo it doesn't matter if Rex throws picks in bunches cause he also does the same with TD's. Bottom line is that I would rather watch Rex move the ball with the chance of a pick then watch a dink and dunk Shoop like affair with Orton in. I'd rather watch the gunslinger then watch mr 3 and out. I'd rather watch a guy who can hit a long ball in stride then a guy who skips a 12 yard comeback. And I would rather watch a guy who was the last quarterback to get us to the Super Bowl then Mr Mediocre. Doesn't mean I dont get mad when Rex effs up. I do. And Mad if you wouldn't choose Farve over the qb's we have then thats just emotion getting in the way. And Gak, the reason the offense was dummied down is cause Orton was not good enough to handle it. And with a dummied down offense he threw 9 td's and 13 pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Unofrtunatley not enough to win it...and ruin our perfect record in SB's. lol. Good you agree with me, then. Rex got enough wins to get to the SB. Nuff said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Yeah I agree. I wouldn't give up picks or whatever to get Favre. But if we could just sign him I would do that in a heartbeat. And I would rather lose the superbowl any day than wait another 20 years to get back. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 I agree, but I'm trying to be realistic. No way could we get Favre without giving something up. We waited 20 years and lost...if you told me we would win another in 20 years vs going twice and losing both during that same time period...I'd gladly wait! Yeah I agree. I wouldn't give up picks or whatever to get Favre. But if we could just sign him I would do that in a heartbeat. And I would rather lose the superbowl any day than wait another 20 years to get back. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GakMan23 Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Grossman averages 1.34 turnovers per game played and Orton averages 1.11 turnovers per game in the NFL at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azbearsfan Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Grossman averages 1.34 turnovers per game played and Orton averages 1.11 turnovers per game in the NFL at this point. Grossman averages .97 touchdowns per game played and Orton averages .67 touchdowns per game played lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Both really inspire so much to be joyous about don't they? Grossman averages .97 touchdowns per game played and Orton averages .67 touchdowns per game played lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GakMan23 Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Grossman averages .97 touchdowns per game played and Orton averages .67 touchdowns per game played lol But Grossman had the full playbook to work with and Orton only had the dummies guide to playbooks version. I just hope the light goes on for one of them and we actually have an NFL quality QB this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 I still do recall the one game where we opened up the playbook for him for the Cincy game. Didn't he throw 5 INT's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 You are right during his 2nd stint with the offense last year he did play better and even cut down on the number of TO's. To bad he couldn't do that the entire year. However, I am not about to go out and say he is the best on the team either. They both scare me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingtwig Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 I give alot of praise to Orton. He didn't screw things up entirely. I am not an orton backer or a grossman backer at this point. I give Orton credit because he was just a rookie. Lets keep in mind that he was supposed to be the 3rd QB and not even get a chance to sniff the turf unless he decided to lay on it during practice. Rex got hurt and then I believe Chad "surfer boy" Hutchinson either got hurt or sucked that bad. I try to forget those couple of years as we went through to many QB's starting for us who after they left us were out of football or never so the field again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Was that his first start officially though? My memory fails me... I still do recall the one game where we opened up the playbook for him for the Cincy game. Didn't he throw 5 INT's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear trap Posted August 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 I still do recall the one game where we opened up the playbook for him for the Cincy game. Didn't he throw 5 INT's. That is the game I was talking about in a different post. Yeah, I think 5 of his career interceptions were in that game. I will remind you that the weather was very bad. Sure rain is rain, but I remember that game vividly. My cousin is a Bengals fan and he and I had a bet on that game. The real reason why I remember it is because it was the last game we watched together before he went to iraq. Like I said it was raining, and rain is rain. However the field was saturated to the point that the players looked like they were on a slip and slide. Odell Thurman picked one of Kyle's passes off a deflection off of I believe gage. There were also a lot more screw ball plays in that game, so Yeah he had a bad game. But he was a rookie, and played his first game under such bad conditions. I like to look at the difference from his rookie year to now which I see a big difference. Last year against the packers the weather was really bad as well and he didn't have a bad game, heck he did better than favre some may say. So everyone like bomber and azbearsfan and bears 88 just look at his rookie year and think they have seen enough of him because he didn't come in and explode like sooo many college qbs do after they get thrown in the starters role after the last preseason game. RIGHT????? Fact is that until this year Orton has been put into an unfair position. Now this is the year that he can prove right or wrong, and from what I've seen the last couple of starts he may need a few weeks to get a rhythme, but he could definitely be a servicable qb bears 88 note I'm not saying he'll be a pro-bowler or a HOF'er just a servicable. If he's more than that we all will see. Rex on the other hand had what? 3 years of on the bench his first being healthy behind jim miller, then two more rehabing and taking notes. Then he looked good in 06 for the first half, but choked mostly the rest of the way. Then last year's debacle. There's no reason not to say they should both be on a level playing field because as much as rex has looked good he's taken it away by looking horrible. Kyle we just don't know yet unless you count the rookie year our coaches screwed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bear trap Posted August 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 I give alot of praise to Orton. He didn't screw things up entirely. I am not an orton backer or a grossman backer at this point. I give Orton credit because he was just a rookie. Lets keep in mind that he was supposed to be the 3rd QB and not even get a chance to sniff the turf unless he decided to lay on it during practice. Rex got hurt and then I believe Chad "surfer boy" Hutchinson either got hurt or sucked that bad. I try to forget those couple of years as we went through to many QB's starting for us who after they left us were out of football or never so the field again. Coaches cut him after the last preseason game because he sucked, which is why I said the coaches screwed Kyle. Throwing the lamb out to the wolves! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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