screen pass...Why can't the Bears run one???

[sussnk]

I just read camp notes out on the Suntimes web site. And the sentence that got me was something like "anytime that the Bears want to rip out the pages that relate to the screen pass is fine by me" -Brad Biggs. Why do the Bears struggle with a screen pass??? They have struggled for as lon as I can remember??

[madlithuanian]

We don't have adequate coaches...

 

I just read camp notes out on the Suntimes web site. And the sentence that got me was something like "anytime that the Bears want to rip out the pages that relate to the screen pass is fine by me" -Brad Biggs. Why do the Bears struggle with a screen pass??? They have struggled for as lon as I can remember??

[Mongo3451]

We don't have adequate coaches...

You have to able to "sell" a screen pass to the defense. About like playing poker, if you a "tell" on your hand a pro will have you read quickly. Sometimes it's coaching, sometimes personnel. I have to give coaching a pass on this as this is taught in grade school. It's more than likely we don't work on it enough, so the O is practicing it more, making it easier for OUR D to read and react. Let's judge game film, not practice on this one.

[azbearsfan]

Cause when the linemen pull out for the screen, they dont hit anybody.

[nfoligno]

I would say multiple problems.

 

One. If we are talking about a WR screen, that is difficult for us to run because our WRs do not get respect enough to back the DB off the LOS. It can work well when the WR has space to make the catch and juke the DB. As our WRs gain no respect, and are facing DBs who chuck them at the LOS, there is no space to work w/, and thus a DB is in their face as they are making a catch.

 

Two. QB size. May not be an issue w/ Orton (I sure he has plenty of others) but I have seen Rex' passes knocked down too often because he can't throw over the DE on the outside.

 

Three. If we are talking about RBs, I think the key issue is the OL, and even there, you have a couple issues.

 

(a) Most of the time we try this, it seems the QB has to get rid of the ball before the play is really set. Because of this, our blockers are not ready to get in front, and the RB is often not even looking back yet. Or even if all that is okay, the pass is not great as the QB was hurried.

 

( As already mentioned, our OL simply are not very good at pulling. How telling is it that R.Brown, who is nearly up for social security, was considered our best pulling OL. Even when the RB does catch the ball, he is usually blown up because the OL supposed to be out in front are not in position.

 

© coaching. One of the things that drives me nuts is how often we try this play, only to have an illegal downfield block penalty called. I think Kreutz is among the worst offenders. You can't make a block until the RB has the ball, and Kreutz (and others) make their blocks too early, and thus the play is called back. That, to me, is coaching.

 

Four is the QB. Nearly every time I have seen Rex throw a screen pass, he does so off his backfoot. Whether other QBs do it that way or not, when Rex throws off his backfoot, it usually means a bad pass. While short, you need a good pass for the screen to work, and rarely does the pass seem to fall into the RBs hands in such a way to allow yards after the catch. More often, the RB has to catch a ball thrown behind him, or simply off, negating momentum.

 

All in all, I think we have not had personnel to make this play work, and even if we did, do not seem to have coaches that know how to coach players on this sort of play. It's too bad too as this is a play that could really expose an overly aggressive pass rush defense. What is really sad is how often I see this play work to perfection against us, only to see laughable results when we try it.

[jason]

[C] coaching. One of the things that drives me nuts is how often we try this play, only to have an illegal downfield block penalty called. I think Kreutz is among the worst offenders. You can't make a block until the RB has the ball, and Kreutz (and others) make their blocks too early, and thus the play is called back. That, to me, is coaching.

 

I agree with the entire post, but wanted to clarify something.

 

The situation you describe, illegal blocking down field (i.e. ineligible man down field), is a result of the OL being significantly beyond the "free blocking zone", and the pass being beyond the line of scrimmage. If a screen pass is set up, and the OL is 6 yards down field, and the pass is caught by the RB BEHIND the line of scrimmage, then there is no penalty. But when the RB leaks out too far, and catches the pass BEYOND the line of scrimmage, the result is a penalty.

 

As far as the blocking while the ball is in the air issue, that is also a foul, but it's offensive pass interference. This, however, is almost NEVER called against the OL when they are setting up the screen. In fact, I'd go so far to say that I've never seen a pass interference on an OLineman. Most of the time the offensive pass interference in this situation is a result of a WR bubble screen or something similar, where the WR is blocking while the ball is in the air.

[GakMan23]

This team reminds me so much of the pathetic Bucs teams when they were in the NFC and Angelo was part of them, they had good to great defenses but horrible offensive talent. This team has no offensive line depth and major question marks on the left side (blind side) of the line, abosulutely no proven top notch wide receivers, No proven quality QB's. The only thing we do have is an abundence of possible top notch RB's in Forte and Jones.

[madlithuanian]

Somewhat...

 

At least those Bucs teams were better coached with Dungy!

 

But there is an eerie similarity...

 

 

 

This team reminds me so much of the pathetic Bucs teams when they were in the NFC and Angelo was part of them, they had good to great defenses but horrible offensive talent. This team has no offensive line depth and major question marks on the left side (blind side) of the line, abosulutely no proven top notch wide receivers, No proven quality QB's. The only thing we do have is an abundence of possible top notch RB's in Forte and Jones.

[fenom283]

Does anybody remember if we ran screens under Jauron I have feeling we did but that might just have been that playoff game against the Eagles.

[DrunkBomber]

You have to able to "sell" a screen pass to the defense. About like playing poker, if you a "tell" on your hand a pro will have you read quickly. Sometimes it's coaching, sometimes personnel. I have to give coaching a pass on this as this is taught in grade school. It's more than likely we don't work on it enough, so the O is practicing it more, making it easier for OUR D to read and react. Let's judge game film, not practice on this one.

Exactly. When you trot Hester onto the field after he hasnt played all game at WR, thats a tell. When Benson was in their and all of a sudden AP comes in on 2nd and 5, thats a tell. At least with Forte we have a 3 down guy so if we want to run a screen pass we dont have to change personnel.

[CrackerDog]

I've been a Bears fan since the early 70's and I don't recall us ever running it effectively. Maybe we had a few successful ones during the Ditka era with Payton at RB. Our O Line then was capable.

 

I agree with much of what NFO said. It's about selling it, having the touch and players to be able to produce. Also, I think the modern era makes success on this play even less likely because the LB's are so damn fast. I recall the Cowboys with Dorsett and the Packers with Levens ran it well. That's a 30 year time frame and I can only call out two teams known for it. I'm talking about the RB screen now.

 

The WR screen is a different animal and we ran it all the time with Shoop as OC. Generally it was good for 1 yard and a cloud of dust. Again, not many teams have been effective with it either. It can be but you basically just hope the WR can break the first tackle and get into the secondary. It takes a WR with both speed and durability. Not a lot of guys out there fitting that bill.

[madlithuanian]

Agreed Cracker!

 

I only recall Sweetness involved in any screen that worked....barring the unusual here and there. But not consistently.

 

I've been a Bears fan since the early 70's and I don't recall us ever running it effectively. Maybe we had a few successful ones during the Ditka era with Payton at RB. Our O Line then was capable.

 

I agree with much of what NFO said. It's about selling it, having the touch and players to be able to produce. Also, I think the modern era makes success on this play even less likely because the LB's are so damn fast. I recall the Cowboys with Dorsett and the Packers with Levens ran it well. That's a 30 year time frame and I can only call out two teams known for it. I'm talking about the RB screen now.

 

The WR screen is a different animal and we ran it all the time with Shoop as OC. Generally it was good for 1 yard and a cloud of dust. Again, not many teams have been effective with it either. It can be but you basically just hope the WR can break the first tackle and get into the secondary. It takes a WR with both speed and durability. Not a lot of guys out there fitting that bill.

[nfoligno]

I agree with much of what NFO said.

 

I am printing this post, and framing it

 

Personally, I think both the RB and WR screen is used more than you talk about. I see it pleny often around the NFL. No, not as often as a simple slant, but I would argue it isn't unique, and that our inability to run the play is in fact more unique.

 

Where I think I see the RB screen the most is against us. This is a flat out awesome play to expose an overly aggressive defense. DL doesn't have time to get to the QB, and if the LBs are committed elsewhere, the RB can have a nice hole. Also, our LBs struggle to fight off blocks, and thus again why we can be exploited. Too many times I have seen it look like we got penetration, only to realize the QB was setting us up. RB only chip blocked, and some OL gave up too easily. It appears our DL has the QB in their sites, but then the QB tosses it over their heads, and the RB has space and blockers in front of him. What appears a bit sack for loss turns out to be a big gain. It doesn't matter that our LBs are fast. If they are fooled, they are out of position to make a play, while the offense has blockers in place to keep them out of the play.

 

The biggest key, IMHO, for the WR screen (at least in terms of matchup) is having a DB backed off the LOS. Watch a WR like Steve Smith, and how often he gets a WR screen thrown to him. When done right, the play is great as LBs can't attack the QB as aggressively for fear of the ball immediatly going outside. But again, it matters so much where the DB lines up.

 

Most every snap, our WRs have a DB in their face ready to give a little bump. They do not fear the WR beating the press. They do not fear the WRs beating them downfield. And even if those happen, they do not fear the QB taking advantage. So our WRs face the press nearly every snap. It is nearly impossible to catch the screen w/ a DB drapped all over you, and then do anything more than just catch the ball.

 

Counter that w/ us on defense, and why I have seen too many screens work against us. I have screamed for a long time about our CBs playing well off the LOS. At times, they look 10 yards off the LOS. That means a WR can easily turn on the snap and take a quick screen from the QB w/o fear of the DB interferring w/ the play. Now the CB is coming on, but there is still space between the WR and CB, and the WR now has an opportunity to make a move on the DB. If he does avoid the DB, he will have a lot of green field in front of him. If not, he likely still ends up w/ 3, 4 or 5 yards.

 

Until our passing game gets respect, and DBs play off our WRs the way our DBs play off opponents WRs, the screen should be put away.

[madlithuanian]

Your first line had me in tears!

 

I am printing this post, and framing it

 

Personally, I think both the RB and WR screen is used more than you talk about. I see it pleny often around the NFL. No, not as often as a simple slant, but I would argue it isn't unique, and that our inability to run the play is in fact more unique.

 

Where I think I see the RB screen the most is against us. This is a flat out awesome play to expose an overly aggressive defense. DL doesn't have time to get to the QB, and if the LBs are committed elsewhere, the RB can have a nice hole. Also, our LBs struggle to fight off blocks, and thus again why we can be exploited. Too many times I have seen it look like we got penetration, only to realize the QB was setting us up. RB only chip blocked, and some OL gave up too easily. It appears our DL has the QB in their sites, but then the QB tosses it over their heads, and the RB has space and blockers in front of him. What appears a bit sack for loss turns out to be a big gain. It doesn't matter that our LBs are fast. If they are fooled, they are out of position to make a play, while the offense has blockers in place to keep them out of the play.

 

The biggest key, IMHO, for the WR screen (at least in terms of matchup) is having a DB backed off the LOS. Watch a WR like Steve Smith, and how often he gets a WR screen thrown to him. When done right, the play is great as LBs can't attack the QB as aggressively for fear of the ball immediatly going outside. But again, it matters so much where the DB lines up.

 

Most every snap, our WRs have a DB in their face ready to give a little bump. They do not fear the WR beating the press. They do not fear the WRs beating them downfield. And even if those happen, they do not fear the QB taking advantage. So our WRs face the press nearly every snap. It is nearly impossible to catch the screen w/ a DB drapped all over you, and then do anything more than just catch the ball.

 

Counter that w/ us on defense, and why I have seen too many screens work against us. I have screamed for a long time about our CBs playing well off the LOS. At times, they look 10 yards off the LOS. That means a WR can easily turn on the snap and take a quick screen from the QB w/o fear of the DB interferring w/ the play. Now the CB is coming on, but there is still space between the WR and CB, and the WR now has an opportunity to make a move on the DB. If he does avoid the DB, he will have a lot of green field in front of him. If not, he likely still ends up w/ 3, 4 or 5 yards.

 

Until our passing game gets respect, and DBs play off our WRs the way our DBs play off opponents WRs, the screen should be put away.

[CrackerDog]

Your first line had me in tears!

 

 

Most of Nfoligno's posts have that affect.

[madlithuanian]

Ha! Usually of anguish though!

 

Most of Nfoligno's posts have that affect.