Welcome to 4-12

[CrackerDog]

I simply do not think GMs are on such a level some of you do. Some are former players, scouts, or whatever. Others were simply business majors who got into the field of sports.

 

Most have been around football, at an organizational and professional level, for decades. Most know talent like you know how to swirl a chocolate/strawberry twist. They can go to a combine and see guys from a distance who they know will work in their systems and those who never will, regardless of 40 times. You think because you read some web site article, written by some joker with no more knowledge about this than you, that you can step into Jerry's job and kick his ass at it. Damn, I wish there was a way to let that happen, if even for a day... For a team outside Chicago.

[jason]

One reason the O Line is in bad shape is because of the injury. You don't need to bash the pick. If he was healthy, we may not be having a conversation about the line. At least not to this extent. The line improved toward the end of the season. Further, it could be said that the biggest disappointment in the line thus far is Tait. Hell, who would've seen that coming? He wanted to be moved back to his more natural position on the right side and thus far it's been a more difficult adjustment than anyone could've predicted.

Completely disagree. Even with Tait doing worse, and Williams being injured, this OL needed more help. Kreutz is on the backend of his career, and the two guards are average at the very best.

 

You missed my comment about the Bears knowing Benson was an issue before his problems in Texas. I have this from a good source and stated this in the past. I'm not making it up to support my argument here.

I seem to recall that everyone knew he was a possible problem child before he was even drafted. What wasn't, and still isn't known, is what he can do on the field. And that's because the OL sucked. Also, doesn't your "good source", who you seem to insinuate had more inside knowledge than our front office, contradict your entire premise in this discussion? If your "good source" knew this, and the Bears didn't know it to the exact same extent or better, then your whole "they work in this industry so they know more" argument is automatically invalid to a certain extent. Your point of view reminds me of how the news industry felt before the onslaught of independent bloggers began to uncover stories and scoop the mainstream on very important issues not too long ago. They may still look down upon the bloggers and such - mostly because of a superiority complex of sorts - but now they know there are non-professionals who can do just as good of a job as the "insiders".

 

No, you don't. Tell me right now how many O Lineman are on the Jets and who they project to keep. How about the Steelers? I know you can look it up and I know you can guess at who they'll keep. Not the point. Jerry knows this information right now, without looking it up, and can project, based on a knowledge of the entire landscape, who will be available, at what price and who best to chase when it happens. You don't.

The point is, if anyone worth a shit was being released, 95% of the time it would already be known. Furthermore, the point about knowing it "right now" is inconsequential. If I did this stuff for a job, and that's all I did, then it would simply be a matter of memory. And, don't act like JA or any other GM knows everything. Nobody knows who is on the Pats injury list for sure. Nobody knows what's going through the mind of other GMs and teams.

 

I'm not saying there aren't questionable moves by anyone, least of all JA. His mistakes are clear. But you couldn't carry his jock. And neither could I. Fans love to believe they'd make all the right decisions. You say we'd be missing a few guys we all now love. Damn dude... That's pretty arrogant. Look at this roster. For better or worse, one hell of a lot of our players come from deep in the draft. If you're that knowledgeable, you belong in a GM role somewhere for a team. Otherwise, you're just a guy with an opinion, like the rest of us.

We'll just disagree here. You say anyone who isn't already a GM couldn't do worth a damn, and I say otherwise. But, I will address one of your comments. If the roster is made up of players deep in the draft, is that necessarily a good thing? I don't think so. I think it shows a certain amount of incompetence, specifically with drafting in the early rounds, but also in player development. Not to mention the fact that the Bears haven't exactly been a powerhouse for an extended period of time. Is it a source of pride or superiority to have a bunch of low-round guys on the team? Maybe THAT'S the problem - too many guys are on the team simply because they got drafted by the Bears, and would have been cut by many other teams. How many other teams would Rex or Kyle start for? Not many. Are those teams the model after which the Bears' front office should model their franchise? Probably not.

 

You might want to look at the MLB standings. Cubs fans are dedicated, not losers. And they have a lot more fun, as do I, than a lot of internet football experts seem to have.

Fun is not the same as consistent winning. I'm sure Cubs fans - and I am one - would have a lot more fun if they were winning as often as Boston and NY recently.

 

PS. You skipped by the part about how this team is one of 4 where the front office can make the claim that their decisions put us in the Superbowl in the last 18 months.

I chose not to address it. I haven't really been a JA basher like others, and for the most part I'm happy with how well the team has done the last FEW years, but they need to do it several years in a row, and develop some sort of a pro offense before I am satisifed. It's the same old stuff: Defense, Defense, Defense. It'd be nice to have a complete team once or twice a decade.

[CrackerDog]

Also, doesn't your "good source", who you seem to insinuate had more inside knowledge than our front office, contradict your entire premise in this discussion? If your "good source" knew this, and the Bears didn't know it to the exact same extent or better, then your whole "they work in this industry so they know more" argument is automatically invalid to a certain extent.

 

I addressed many of your points to that stinking meddler NFO already. I'll just respond to this one. Again, my insider got his info from the Bears. THEY knew, dude. Texas gave them a convenient excuse to let him go but they wouldn't have been able to do what needed to be done had they not already drafted his replacement. My guess is, if Forte wasn't available, Benson may have been released anyway, and we'd have to be looking to FA to bring someone in. That part of my post is, I admit, pure conjecture. Benson being released, based on what I heard, isn't.

 

As an internet football expert, you'll need to find a new web site to get that sort of information in the future. I just happened on it this time and can't be relied on in the future. Just happen to work with a guy who knows medical guys who...

[jason]

Bernard Berrian was just signed away from us for #1 receiver money. The Vikings seem to think you're wrong. They're an NFL franchise and you're a dude on the internet arguing with me. Benson was the right decision at the time. Bust. Bringing Tait in was a major coup when it happened. He's served us well for a few years and now seems to be slipping. Olsen is widely thought to be a great TE and we may have found another great one this draft. We haven't had a good TE in Chicago in my adult lifetime.

 

Dude, do you know what hypocrisy means?! How can you say that JA is so great, and the guys doing the job are so knowledgable, and then give credit to another team that did something in direct opposition to what JA did!?!? Make up your mind! Are they all knowing, or are they not? The fact that you give credit to the Vikings for doing something that JA and the Bears refused to do, when the clearly could have, just shows even more that it's a lot more of a crap-shoot than you care to admit. It's management, talent evaluation, and a combination of finances and contracts.

 

You say Benson was the right decision at the time, I completely disagree. The Bears had TJ, and some on the old board thought he was good enough to carry the load. I happened to be one of those people. We happened to be right. Sure, JA and the Bears can't be blamed for Benson being a bust, and he was a great prospect at the time, but I thought it was a horrible move.

 

Two sidebars

1) Regarding the OC/DC stuff you and nfo brought up: I don't think I could do as well as the majority of OCs and DCs in the pros, but there have been several that have been bad enough to make me think that it's just like any profession: people get hired to their highest level of incompetence. Ignoring all the fancy lingo, it comes down to understanding football - some don't seem to understand common sense solutions to their problems, and get caught up in the X's and O's of it all, without simply making the smart decision. Bill Simmons on ESPN thinks there should be a "GM of Common Sense" appointed to each pro sports team, and I agree with him. Someone to say things like, "You want to trade the entire draft for Ricky Williams?! C'mon, there is no way we are doing that." Or, "You want to run Wolfe up the middle twice, on the goalline, against the best run D in the entire NFL, with our weak OL?!"

 

2) The whole "why don't you do it" strawman is garbage and you know it. The great majority of people don't have the advantage and privilege to just pick up in the middle of life and make a major career change like that. The education required to even start on the lowest level as a high school coach would cause at least a two or three year gap from work and pay, and people just can't do that. I often wish I would have taken a different route, as I'm sure nearly everyone wishes, but it's just not realistic to do so, and to act as if someone can is the very definition of a strawman argument that you seem to like mentioning.

[azbearsfan]

If you can see it, you can be it , big guy.

 

 

Theo Epstien got to his job in relatively little time.

 

You can too.

[madlithuanian]

Your info on Bill SImmons is classic! I didn't know he menioned having a "GM of Common sense!" It's really brilliant! Normally I just get tired of him riding the jock of Boston, but dang if he's not 100% on this one!

 

And I swear if any team needed one, it's ours!

[Mongo3451]

I am not replying to any one post or poster in general. But, I have to say this is probably he best argument/debte I have seen on this board.

 

Let me interject some points, because i found my self agreeing with Jason, Cracker and NFO on a somewhat partial basis.

 

1) I think a knowledgeable fan could make GM like descisions with the proper personnel surrounding him. I think it takes good instincts and a great eye for talent. Do I think anybody can actually be a fully functional GM? Hell no. That's why JA gets a passing grade from me, as he does most things outstandingly. If common folk like us were to be surrounded by people advising us on how to do our job, we would be CEO's not GM's.

 

2) Would drafting OL heavily have helped us this year? Yes. Why? Because at least we would have a vision of the future. We currently are shaky on the present and future.

 

3) Does JA have insight to what might unfold as far as availible talent is concerned? The answer is some, but not all. GM's pay attention to rosters and payroll, there is some predictability. Heck, if we can predict some things, just think what they can come up with.

 

4) Could any of us be a DC or OC? Are you kidding me? Hell no. We don't have the knowledge these guys have in heir pinky. That's the difference in pro coaches good and bad. They all have great knowledge. Just a few are able to bring out the best. Just a few more are lucky enough to get the speciall players to bring thm to greatness. Does anyone believe belichick wins a SuperBowl without Brady? My answer is no. Does that remove him from the great coach list? No.

 

5) The Bears are NOT cheap when it comes to players. They are cheap when it comes to coaches. They had to pony up when it came to Lovie, because he came due at the right time. We are still one of the lowest paid support staffs in the league.

[CrackerDog]

Dude, do you know what hypocrisy means?! How can you say that JA is so great, and the guys doing the job are so knowledgable, and then give credit to another team that did something in direct opposition to what JA did!?!? Make up your mind! Are they all knowing, or are they not? The fact that you give credit to the Vikings for doing something that JA and the Bears refused to do, when the clearly could have, just shows even more that it's a lot more of a crap-shoot than you care to admit. It's management, talent evaluation, and a combination of finances and contracts.

 

I'm not being hypocritical at all. I'm making a comparitive analysis between two opinions and stating that I trust one more than the other, an NFL exec over NFO. Or, at a minimum, that Jerry's ability to evaluate offensive talent is supported by the fact that the Vikings wanted a WR he drafted. Hell, I'm not even saying I agree with the Vikings or Jerry for that matter. I'm not the one claiming I could be a GM, you are.

 

I could've used Jones as my example instead.

 

The point is, when it comes right down to it, Jerry acquired all of the talent on the 2006 Bears but for three players, I believe. And the only one on O he didn't was Kruetz. So, he seems to be able to bring O talent to the team although not nearly at the hit rate he has on D. If he hit on O as often, we'd run out of cap space and have different problems. Nice problem to have, I admit.

 

You say Benson was the right decision at the time, I completely disagree. The Bears had TJ, and some on the old board thought he was good enough to carry the load. I happened to be one of those people. We happened to be right. Sure, JA and the Bears can't be blamed for Benson being a bust, and he was a great prospect at the time, but I thought it was a horrible move.

 

Many who didn't want Benson wanted another bust. I don't know where you stood on who we ought to pick but it really doesn't matter much. The facts then suggested Benson rated higher than any other player in the draft and the long term strategy of the Bears suggested TJ wasn't going to be our guy based on age and the amount of money he would demand. There's a whole new philosophy in the NFL now where teams look at RB's as almost interchangable parts. You may not agree and neither do I, really, but we're seeing guys we didn't think would ever change teams in the past, move a lot now. Edge moving from the Colts springs to mind.

 

Being an old school guy, I'd love to find another Payton and have him retire a Bear. Our history as a franchise, to me, means we ought to have the best RB's and MLB's in the league, at least once a generation.

 

Two sidebars

1) Regarding the OC/DC stuff you and nfo brought up: I don't think I could do as well as the majority of OCs and DCs in the pros, but there have been several that have been bad enough to make me think that it's just like any profession: people get hired to their highest level of incompetence.

 

I don't disagree it would appear many of us could out-think Shoop. Ditka was no genius and did a wonderful job with almost any talent he had on the team. Leadership isn't always about brains although it certainly helps to be smart.

 

2) The whole "why don't you do it" strawman is garbage and you know it.

 

I said it jokingly. Someone else made it the point of their argument against you, not me. I don't think most of us, even if capable, could just decide to head over to Bears HQ and get a job. You'll have to fight the guy who used the straw man against you on this one. I agree with you although doubt he really meant you ought to do that. Regardless, you still couldn't hold Jerry's jock.

[azbearsfan]

lol The whole "u get a GM" job was a joke, just like the notion that you could be one at all.

[jason]

If you can see it, you can be it , big guy.

 

 

Theo Epstien got to his job in relatively little time.

 

You can too.

 

Way to be ignorant.

Check out his bio a little bit before saying something like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Epstein

 

The dude was born into a rich family on several levels and went to an Ivy League school, thereby pretty much guaranteeing him any job he wanted. He chose to intern with the Orioles; the Orioles didn't choose him. He chose to work at the Padres PR department. How many Ivy League guys apply as lowly PR guys? Are you kidding me? That's the kind of job that thousands apply for, and he got it because of A-the degree he earned from his school, and B-he has connections.

 

Aside from that, Lawrence Lucchino has Yale connections with Theo and brought him along for the ride.

 

This dude has had connections his whole life, and his meteoric rise to fame is due in large part to the opportunities he was given, opportunities the average Joe doesn't get.

 

Ignoring all of that, the mere fact that Theo Epstein went from a rookie PR guy to the GM in seven years, ABSOLUTELY PROVES THAT YOU ARE WRONG. If given the chance, why couldn't another do it?! Seven friggin' years! And before you start talking about how smart the guy is, which he very well may be, read the paragraph that starts with, "Under the direction of Henry, Werner, Lucchino, and Epstein..."

[azbearsfan]

Way to be ignorant.

Check out his bio a little bit before saying something like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Epstein

 

The dude was born into a rich family on several levels and went to an Ivy League school, thereby pretty much guaranteeing him any job he wanted. He chose to intern with the Orioles; the Orioles didn't choose him. He chose to work at the Padres PR department. How many Ivy League guys apply as lowly PR guys? Are you kidding me? That's the kind of job that thousands apply for, and he got it because of A-the degree he earned from his school, and B-he has connections.

 

Aside from that, Lawrence Lucchino has Yale connections with Theo and brought him along for the ride.

 

This dude has had connections his whole life, and his meteoric rise to fame is due in large part to the opportunities he was given, opportunities the average Joe doesn't get.

 

Ignoring all of that, the mere fact that Theo Epstein went from a rookie PR guy to the GM in seven years, ABSOLUTELY PROVES THAT YOU ARE WRONG. If given the chance, why couldn't another do it?! Seven friggin' years! And before you start talking about how smart the guy is, which he very well may be, read the paragraph that starts with, "Under the direction of Henry, Werner, Lucchino, and Epstein..."

 

 

Calm down brother. In seven years you could be an NFL GM too. Just tell all those guys to come over here and read all of your brilliant posts. You can show them your record at predicting drafts on the boards and amaze them with who you would have taken instead of the Bears GM. Then you can wow them with your expert complaints of the Oline situation and all of your witty retorts. Then they will be in awe of who you would have taken instead of Benson and Hester. You could also dazzle them with the first all OL draft in the history of the world. You can start as a PR guy and in SEVEN YEARS MR CAPS you could be GM of the Bears and really show us all whats up.

 

I also love how you think you are an NFL GM, yet I am ignorant. That, sir, is comedy you can't get anywhere else but here.

 

Oh and you are right. The Theo comparison is a bad one. He actually had the nerve to prove how good a GM he is.

[nfoligno]

Most have been around football, at an organizational and professional level, for decades. Most know talent like you know how to swirl a chocolate/strawberry twist. They can go to a combine and see guys from a distance who they know will work in their systems and those who never will, regardless of 40 times. You think because you read some web site article, written by some joker with no more knowledge about this than you, that you can step into Jerry's job and kick his ass at it. Damn, I wish there was a way to let that happen, if even for a day... For a team outside Chicago.

 

Hey, I said I would suck as a GM, but sorry, even us lame fans would have our hits.

 

And hey, I can make a great chocolate/vanilla twist, not sure about the strawberry. But my kids insist I am a genius in this area

[nfoligno]

That "field of failures" put a team out there better than almost anyone else did in 2007. I know Rex was inconsistent but he wasn't inconsistent because of the rest of the guys around him. If he could produce in 10 games he sure as hell could've produced in 16. And that failed offense played damn well in a couple of playoff games. Not hitting on QB can be held against a lot of guys in the NFL. Most of them don't put together a team around him that can make the Superbowl without one.

 

Did you forget Thomas Jones? Des Clark? I'm not going to make the list out for you man, do a little homework. Or get one of Jerry's minions to do it for you.

 

And I'll have sprinkles on that cone, double dipped.

 

I will agree he has done better in FA (on offense) than in the draft, though it would be hard not to w/ his draft record. Then again, Clark was so great we spent years talking about needing a better TE. And while TJ was a great pickup, Angelo also drafted Benson w/ TJ on the roster and traded away TJ.

 

Problem is, too many of his offensive FA moves have been older FAs who have a short window to play well. R. Brown, Miller, Moose (for example). They may give you a year or two, but are simply bandaids. If you can't find talent in the draft, you are going to be in trouble.

 

Do you want any crushed candy on that double dip?

[jason]

Calm down brother. In seven years you could be an NFL GM too. Just tell all those guys to come over here and read all of your brilliant posts. You can show them your record at predicting drafts on the boards and amaze them with who you would have taken instead of the Bears GM. Then you can wow them with your expert complaints of the Oline situation and all of your witty retorts. Then they will be in awe of who you would have taken instead of Benson and Hester. You could also dazzle them with the first all OL draft in the history of the world. You can start as a PR guy and in SEVEN YEARS MR CAPS you could be GM of the Bears and really show us all whats up.

 

I also love how you think you are an NFL GM, yet I am ignorant. That, sir, is comedy you can't get anywhere else but here.

 

Oh and you are right. The Theo comparison is a bad one. He actually had the nerve to prove how good a GM he is.

 

I'm done debating this with you. You continue to use ignorant arguments, and have them thrown in your face, but you retort with ad hominems and unrealistic situations.

 

You act like all GMs are gods, but somehow they all make decisions that contradict one another. Berrian is a great example. Thomas Jones is a great example. If JA, or any GM for that matter, was that great, the changeover wouldn't be nearly what it is. And there sure as hell wouldn't be a consistent flow of players who leave the Bears and start for other teams. There sure as hell wouldn't be free agents every year who get paid huge by one team when nearly all other GMs scoff at the deal and roll their eyes.

 

The Theo comparison was a bad one, and I displayed why it was a bad one. But you can continue believing in Santa and unicorns, thinking it's all because Theo had nerve, or drive, or whatever...I'll choose to live in the real world where there are connections and nepotism, a world that most definitely gave Theo an advantage in all of this.

 

Last but not least, I never said that I am a GM for the NFL, and the fact that you can't see that does make you ignorant of the debate. The debate is, can an average Joe who loves and knows about sports do as good a job as an NFL GM when making selections. I'd say the fact that someone was given the opporunity, Theo, and succeeded, proves that the old-guard doesn't necessarily know what's best, and a relative outsider can come in and excel. I'd also say that the hit-miss ratio for GMs in the NFL isn't that good, further proving their less-than-perfect ability. Looking back at the Bears' selections over the last 20 years, one would have to be damn near retarded when it comes to football knowledge to do much worse. Luckily for us, JA has turned the tide, and hopefully continues to put together a good, albeit one-sided, team. I don't see why you put them on such a pedestal when it is clear that they constantly screw up, constantly get replaced, and constantly get fired. The mere changeover of GMs proves that there is a ton of room for improvement, and I see no reason why an avid football fan with in depth understanding of football strategy and rules couldn't do just as good of a job as most GMs, if not better in some situations.

[madlithuanian]

Jason,

 

I think you make a very compelling argument...

 

I think I agree. While Theo made the most of his opportunities, he sure had a lot more opportunity than an average Joe would.

 

Maybe a simpler way to look at it...not every GM is a good GM, and not every average Joe could be a GM. But like there are good GM's, I'm sure there may be a few average Joe's out of thousands that could probably do a sufficient job. I'm not specifically singling out JA here...just being generic.

 

I'm done debating this with you. You continue to use ignorant arguments, and have them thrown in your face, but you retort with ad hominems and unrealistic situations.

 

You act like all GMs are gods, but somehow they all make decisions that contradict one another. Berrian is a great example. Thomas Jones is a great example. If JA, or any GM for that matter, was that great, the changeover wouldn't be nearly what it is. And there sure as hell wouldn't be a consistent flow of players who leave the Bears and start for other teams. There sure as hell wouldn't be free agents every year who get paid huge by one team when nearly all other GMs scoff at the deal and roll their eyes.

 

The Theo comparison was a bad one, and I displayed why it was a bad one. But you can continue believing in Santa and unicorns, thinking it's all because Theo had nerve, or drive, or whatever...I'll choose to live in the real world where there are connections and nepotism, a world that most definitely gave Theo an advantage in all of this.

 

Last but not least, I never said that I am a GM for the NFL, and the fact that you can't see that does make you ignorant of the debate. The debate is, can an average Joe who loves and knows about sports do as good a job as an NFL GM when making selections. I'd say the fact that someone was given the opporunity, Theo, and succeeded, proves that the old-guard doesn't necessarily know what's best, and a relative outsider can come in and excel. I'd also say that the hit-miss ratio for GMs in the NFL isn't that good, further proving their less-than-perfect ability. Looking back at the Bears' selections over the last 20 years, one would have to be damn near retarded when it comes to football knowledge to do much worse. Luckily for us, JA has turned the tide, and hopefully continues to put together a good, albeit one-sided, team. I don't see why you put them on such a pedestal when it is clear that they constantly screw up, constantly get replaced, and constantly get fired. The mere changeover of GMs proves that there is a ton of room for improvement, and I see no reason why an avid football fan with in depth understanding of football strategy and rules couldn't do just as good of a job as most GMs, if not better in some situations.

[azbearsfan]

I'm done debating this with you. You continue to use ignorant arguments, and have them thrown in your face, but you retort with ad hominems and unrealistic situations.

 

You act like all GMs are gods, but somehow they all make decisions that contradict one another. Berrian is a great example. Thomas Jones is a great example. If JA, or any GM for that matter, was that great, the changeover wouldn't be nearly what it is. And there sure as hell wouldn't be a consistent flow of players who leave the Bears and start for other teams. There sure as hell wouldn't be free agents every year who get paid huge by one team when nearly all other GMs scoff at the deal and roll their eyes.

 

The Theo comparison was a bad one, and I displayed why it was a bad one. But you can continue believing in Santa and unicorns, thinking it's all because Theo had nerve, or drive, or whatever...I'll choose to live in the real world where there are connections and nepotism, a world that most definitely gave Theo an advantage in all of this.

 

Last but not least, I never said that I am a GM for the NFL, and the fact that you can't see that does make you ignorant of the debate. The debate is, can an average Joe who loves and knows about sports do as good a job as an NFL GM when making selections. I'd say the fact that someone was given the opporunity, Theo, and succeeded, proves that the old-guard doesn't necessarily know what's best, and a relative outsider can come in and excel. I'd also say that the hit-miss ratio for GMs in the NFL isn't that good, further proving their less-than-perfect ability. Looking back at the Bears' selections over the last 20 years, one would have to be damn near retarded when it comes to football knowledge to do much worse. Luckily for us, JA has turned the tide, and hopefully continues to put together a good, albeit one-sided, team. I don't see why you put them on such a pedestal when it is clear that they constantly screw up, constantly get replaced, and constantly get fired. The mere changeover of GMs proves that there is a ton of room for improvement, and I see no reason why an avid football fan with in depth understanding of football strategy and rules couldn't do just as good of a job as most GMs, if not better in some situations.

 

 

I never put anybody on a pedestal and show me where I acted like all GM's are god. I just have no time for people who think they could better with no true understanding of what the the job entails. We deal with it a ton at the high school football level. Every dad or joe schmoe who has ever watched a football game thinks they know everything there is to know about football. And when the going is tough more and more people are experts. For example, our whole high school staff switched schools about five years ago to a school who played in an easy region and got to the state playoff only to get demolished in the first round. We switched the old offense from a five wide type to a running type offense and a man to man defense to a cover two. Our first year was bad in the transition, and everybody and their brother was an expert and telling us what we should do. But each year we did better, as we built the program up in our style and we had less and less experts each year. Last year we played for the state championship and nobody said nothing. Its funny because I would tell all those people in the early years to go apply for a job and they too would give the same excuses. They dont have time or whatever. But they sure had time to tell us what we should be doing even though they had no idea what it took to build a good program.

 

Same thing here. You think you could be a NFL GM, but can't do it for whatever reason.

 

And the Theo comparison was purely to exemplify that you could get to a GM position in a relatively short period of time cause you had made the statement that you didn't have time to go be a high school coach and work your way up.

 

 

I am done debating you too. Again I love how you call me ignorant, but I am not the one saying they would be such a great NFL GM.

 

HAve a nice day Sir!!!!!

[selection7]

Having skipped most of that last page...I agree with Crackerdog for the most part. Some of you fans may have gotten some of the things right that JA got wrong, but I'm sure you tend to grossly underestimate the number of decisions that JA gets right that you didn't even think about or have forgotten about.

 

Plus, understand that every one of the other 31 teams is fighting for the same guys. JA can evaluate needs and pick out great replacements all day but realistically less than 25% of the time will that option be available (e.g. another team signs him by overpaying, the player doesn't fall to the draft pick where you felt comfortable he'd be, etc.). How good would you be if you had to settle for your third choice 3/4ths of the time?

 

I don't agree with Crackerdog that Benson was the right choice at the time though. Ricky Williams proved there's no such thing as a sure thing and it made no sense in almost any other way unless you're going with dual backs, which I vocally supported until the day TJ was traded. I honestly am still not sure I understand what JA was thinking with that pick. I will say that I was too ignorant to KNOW I was right at the time and I just shrugged it off, so ultimately even being right about Ced (is he out of football now? Isn't TJ still the Jets starter?) is moot because I might not have overruled my scouts anyway.

[CrackerDog]

I don't agree with Crackerdog that Benson was the right choice at the time though. Ricky Williams proved there's no such thing as a sure thing and it made no sense in almost any other way unless you're going with dual backs, which I vocally supported until the day TJ was traded. I honestly am still not sure I understand what JA was thinking with that pick. I will say that I was too ignorant to KNOW I was right at the time and I just shrugged it off, so ultimately even being right about Ced (is he out of football now? Isn't TJ still the Jets starter?) is moot because I might not have overruled my scouts anyway.

 

The better option, in that draft, given hindsight, would've been to drop back and get a few more picks and not draft that high if you didn't want Benson. I'm saying given the slot, it made sense. Your other "big slash" choice, I believe, was Mike Williams, and he was a bigger bust than Benson. Not sure who else would've been a better pick at the time and at that slot. That's all I'm saying.

 

Had I known what a douche he was, I wouldn't have liked the pick at all. Seeing him cry at the draft should've been my first clue.

[nfoligno]

The better option, in that draft, given hindsight, would've been to drop back and get a few more picks and not draft that high if you didn't want Benson. I'm saying given the slot, it made sense. Your other "big slash" choice, I believe, was Mike Williams, and he was a bigger bust than Benson. Not sure who else would've been a better pick at the time and at that slot. That's all I'm saying.

 

Had I known what a douche he was, I wouldn't have liked the pick at all. Seeing him cry at the draft should've been my first clue.

 

I recall I, and some others, wanted Derrick Johnson. Turns out we would have been right in the sense of getting a good player, but as he slipped all the way to 15, he would have been a reach.

 

That was really an ugly draft. Quite a few of the players in the top 10 have been proven to be total busts (Alex Smith, Benson, Pacman, Troy Williamson, Mike Williams) while a couple others who looked good early on, now appear headed for bustdom (Ronnie Brown, who some believe could be moved this year, and Cadillac).

 

Not that I want to take the time, but that has to be one of the worst top 10 drafts for some time. Pretty ugly when you, using hindsight, still have to stretch to find a good pick, or you simply have to say, "we should have traded down".

[madlithuanian]

Yep...DJ was my preferred pick as well.

 

I recall I, and some others, wanted Derrick Johnson. Turns out we would have been right in the sense of getting a good player, but as he slipped all the way to 15, he would have been a reach.

 

That was really an ugly draft. Quite a few of the players in the top 10 have been proven to be total busts (Alex Smith, Benson, Pacman, Troy Williamson, Mike Williams) while a couple others who looked good early on, now appear headed for bustdom (Ronnie Brown, who some believe could be moved this year, and Cadillac).

 

Not that I want to take the time, but that has to be one of the worst top 10 drafts for some time. Pretty ugly when you, using hindsight, still have to stretch to find a good pick, or you simply have to say, "we should have traded down".

[AZ54]

I recall I, and some others, wanted Derrick Johnson. Turns out we would have been right in the sense of getting a good player, but as he slipped all the way to 15, he would have been a reach.

 

That was really an ugly draft. Quite a few of the players in the top 10 have been proven to be total busts (Alex Smith, Benson, Pacman, Troy Williamson, Mike Williams) while a couple others who looked good early on, now appear headed for bustdom (Ronnie Brown, who some believe could be moved this year, and Cadillac).

 

Not that I want to take the time, but that has to be one of the worst top 10 drafts for some time. Pretty ugly when you, using hindsight, still have to stretch to find a good pick, or you simply have to say, "we should have traded down".

 

 

It was a lousy draft so who was going to trade up to get one those guys?

[Mongo3451]

name='AZ54' date='Aug 19 2008, 09:55 PM' post='44496']

It was a lousy draft so who was going to trade up to get one those guys?

Apparently nobody. I was also a DJ fan (only with a trade down)going into that draft, but at #4 I thought Benson was the surest thing to a no-brainer.

[CrackerDog]

Apparently nobody. I was also a DJ fan (only with a trade down)going into that draft, but at #4 I thought Benson was the surest thing to a no-brainer.

 

Funny, everyone seems to be an "I said DJ" guy now. But on the web site, all I recall was a debate between Williams and Benson. I guess my memory is faulty...

 

<_>

[nfoligno]

Funny, everyone seems to be an "I said DJ" guy now. But on the web site, all I recall was a debate between Williams and Benson. I guess my memory is faulty...

 

<_>

 

I agree much of the debate was Mike Williams or Benson, but there were several of us that really liked DJ. He was my #1 choice, though I also have to admit Benson was my #2. I just loved the idea of adding Williams to our trio, and frankly, I don't think I was sold on Briggs at the time. But there were several of us who loved DJ. I am not an avid college fan, but Texas is the one team I see most every game, and was very high on DJ.

 

W/ that said, and Mongo and I have talked about this since, I think DJ would have been a mistake. He is a WLB, and as good as he is, I am not sure he is better than Briggs. If we did draft DJ, I fear he would have never developed into the player he has, or maybe we would have missed out on Briggs if we moved him to SLB. So, even though I liked DJ, who has become a damn good LB, I am not sure that would have been that good of a pick for us.

 

Similar to Merriman or Ware, two players who have become great for other teams, I question how well they would have developed for us.

[madlithuanian]

Check your memory Cracker...I know 100% that nfo and I were on the DJ bandwagon big time!

 

Funny, everyone seems to be an "I said DJ" guy now. But on the web site, all I recall was a debate between Williams and Benson. I guess my memory is faulty...

 

<_>