Benson 104yds and a TD

[OmahaBear]

maybe if he produced like that more often he wouldn't be such a douche bag..

[Connorbear]

maybe if he produced like that more often he wouldn't be such a douche bag..

Who???? Screw him. I hope he enjoys playing for that crappy organization.

 

Peace

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

Who gives a sh*t?

[Bears4Ever_34]

Its because he isn't running behind this offensive line..

[madlithuanian]

Even a broken clock is right 2 times a day...

 

maybe if he produced like that more often he wouldn't be such a douche bag..

[DrunkBomber]

I dont care if he becomes a pro bowler, I wouldnt want him on the Bears anymore.

[Connorbear]

I dont care if he becomes a pro bowler, I wouldnt want him on the Bears anymore.

Exactly, he had his chance here and pissed it away. Who really cares.

 

Peace

[OmahaBear]

I don't care...I didn't like it when we drafted him..

 

but since we feel the need to mention what Bradley was doing I threw this out as well...

[nfoligno]

Exactly, he had his chance here and pissed it away. Who really cares.

 

Peace

 

Agreed. I was a Benson supporter, but also had to admit it was time to move on. To me, it is similar as w/ Tank. Tank was looking good for Dallas last year, but it didn't matter to me, as I just felt it was time to move on w/ him too.

 

Even if he does well w/ Cincy, or someone else, that doesn't mean he would have done well for us. Sometimes it takes moving on for a player to step up his game. Thomas Jones, while not the cancer, could be another example to point to. If he stuck w/ AZ, I doubt he would have ever stepped up his game.

[Lucky Luciano]

Agreed. I was a Benson supporter, but also had to admit it was time to move on. To me, it is similar as w/ Tank. Tank was looking good for Dallas last year, but it didn't matter to me, as I just felt it was time to move on w/ him too.

 

i really don't want to bring up the tank debates again but i have to say i think it was a mistake letting him go.

 

some food for thought... could tank missing in action in chicago have anything to do with how our d-line and especially t. harris has played since he left? hmmmmmm, i wonder.

[nfoligno]

i really don't want to bring up the tank debates again but i have to say i think it was a mistake letting him go.

 

some food for thought... could tank missing in action in chicago have anything to do with how our d-line and especially t. harris has played since he left? hmmmmmm, i wonder.

 

I think you are giving Tank WAY too much credit. Frankly, I am not sure he was even better than Dusty or Harrison. I think the problem on our defense go way beyond Tank. If you want to go back, and look at one change made which I think carries the greatest level of significant, to me that would be Rivera. W/ Rivera running the D, we were a top 5 defense. W/o, we have been in the bottom half of the league.

[Lucky Luciano]

I think you are giving Tank WAY too much credit. Frankly, I am not sure he was even better than Dusty or Harrison. I think the problem on our defense go way beyond Tank. If you want to go back, and look at one change made which I think carries the greatest level of significant, to me that would be Rivera. W/ Rivera running the D, we were a top 5 defense. W/o, we have been in the bottom half of the league.

 

sorry but i just have to disagree on multiple aspects.

 

i DON'T believe dusty is even close to the production we got out of tank as our #2 tackle. tank was good not only at stopping the run but putting pressure on the qb. he not only had pretty good speed for a guy that big but was quick off the snap and had a lot of push up the middle.

 

how many times have you seen dusty knocking down an opponents thrower? so to me that makes dusty a one dimensional tackle, at least at this point in his career, and one not even as good as keith traylor at stopping the run.

 

rivera? what does rivera have to do with quickness and power coming out of the blocks for a defensive tackle to get push up the middle? it's not like we are playing a totally different scheme since rivera left and especially the tackle position. we still are putting them into the gaps.

 

as far as the d as a whole i agree. we need/ed a dc like rivera who isn't a yes man and has more options in his bag of tricks.

[madlithuanian]

Tank is not an elite DT. I don't think Dusty is either at this point. But there is not a gap the size of the Grand Canyon beetween the 2 of them. Saying the Bears D is struggling this year because we don't have Tank Johnson is an enormous stretch.

 

I agree with nfo, the common denominator is Rivera. And while he worked within the cover 2, he manipluated it far more, even using a 46 every now and then. He also had his guys stunting,etc...

 

sorry but i just have to disagree on multiple aspects.

 

i DON'T believe dusty is even close to the production we got out of tank as our #2 tackle. tank was good not only at stopping the run but putting pressure on the qb. he not only had pretty good speed for a guy that big but was quick off the snap and had a lot of push up the middle.

 

how many times have you seen dusty knocking down an opponents thrower? so to me that makes dusty a one dimensional tackle, at least at this point in his career, and one not even as good as keith traylor at stopping the run.

 

rivera? what does rivera have to do with quickness and power coming out of the blocks for a defensive tackle to get push up the middle? it's not like we are playing a totally different scheme since rivera left and especially the tackle position. we still are putting them into the gaps.

 

as far as the d as a whole i agree. we need/ed a dc like rivera who isn't a yes man and has more options in his bag of tricks.

[Lucky Luciano]

Tank is not an elite DT. I don't think Dusty is either at this point. But there is not a gap the size of the Grand Canyon beetween the 2 of them. Saying the Bears D is struggling this year because we don't have Tank Johnson is an enormous stretch.

 

ok, what is the biggest problem on defense this season? if you said rushing the passer you get a cigar.

 

let's look at tanks stats in chicago:

 

2004 - 1 start played in 16 games - 12 tackles, 9 solo, 3 assists - .5 sacks

 

2005 - 4 games started and played in 16 - 25 tackles, 19 solo and 6 assists - FIVE sacks with 2 passes defended

 

2006 - 14 games and 10 starts - 26 tackles, 22 solo, 4 assists - 3.5 sacks, 1 safety, 1 pass defended

 

hmmmmm that's NINE sacks in 3 season and THREE passes defended!!!!!!!1

 

now let's look at our friend dusty:

 

2006 - 0 games played

 

2007 - 1 game played, 1 game started - 1 tackle, 1 solo - 0 sacks

 

2008 - 8 games played, 8 games started - 22 tackles, 18 solo, 1 assist - 0 sacks

 

hmmmm, NO sacks, NO passes defended

 

now, tell me WHO was the bigger contributor to what ails this franchise?

[nfoligno]

i DON'T believe dusty is even close to the production we got out of tank as our #2 tackle. tank was good not only at stopping the run but putting pressure on the qb. he not only had pretty good speed for a guy that big but was quick off the snap and had a lot of push up the middle.

 

I am not looking at pure production, because IMHO, much of Tank's "production" was due to the production of those around him. I do not buy and argument that Wale, Brown and Anderson were better because of him. I think the opposite would be true. As for now, our DL as a whole is failing to produce, and thus the play of the current DTs are not going to reflect the production of the past.

 

Personally, I was just never "that" impressed w/ Tank. I thought he was a decent DT, but felt he benefited from those around him more than the other way around. Now this is not to say I think Dusty or Harrison are great. I simply don't believe the dropoff (if any) between Tank and our current DTs is really much.

 

how many times have you seen dusty knocking down an opponents thrower? so to me that makes dusty a one dimensional tackle, at least at this point in his career, and one not even as good as keith traylor at stopping the run.

 

Well, I haven't seen much knocking down of the passer by any of our DL, or defense as a whole for that matter. Is Tommie Harris one dimensional? I sure haven't seen him near the QB.

 

rivera? what does rivera have to do with quickness and power coming out of the blocks for a defensive tackle to get push up the middle? it's not like we are playing a totally different scheme since rivera left and especially the tackle position. we still are putting them into the gaps.

 

Few differences. When Rivera was here, we moved our DEs around more, and created more outside pressure. In doing this, our DTs were more often freed up. That is compared to now when our DEs are often blocked by only the OT, and the opponent often has extra protection inside.

 

as far as the d as a whole i agree. we need/ed a dc like rivera who isn't a yes man and has more options in his bag of tricks.

 

We do agree here. I've had this discussion w/ others before. By and large, we have the same personnel as we did two years ago when our defense dominated. Last year and this year though, we have flat out stunk, and injuries are no longer a valid excuse. You can point to the loss of Tank, but I simply do not agree that is a significant loss. If Tank were on this team today, I doubt seriously we would see any difference.

[nfoligno]

Hold the phone. You want to compare 3 years w/ Tank to 1/2 of one season for Dusty? I am not sure I understand that one.

 

One. Dusty has a grand total of 9 games played, and yet you want to compare his numbers w/ those of Tank, who has 42.

 

Two. I never said that just Dusty was equal to Tank, but said Dusty and Harrison. Harrison has 2 sacks thus far, and seems on pace to be even w/ what Tank provided.

 

Three. You say Dusty has no passed defended, while Tank had 3 in 3 seasons. According to ESPN, Dusty has 2 PDs this year. So Dusty has 2 PDs in 9 games, compared to Tank's 3 in 42. Oops.

 

Take a look again at what I said, as well as the stats. We have not simply replaced Tank w/ Dusty, but w/ Dusty and Harrison. If you would like, you can look at the combo of Dusty/Harrison against Tank/Scott, which I think would be more legit.

 

Just curious. Are you just arguing to support Tank, who you always liked, or are you truly arguing our DL's lack of pass rush is due to the loss of Tank?

 

ok, what is the biggest problem on defense this season? if you said rushing the passer you get a cigar.

 

let's look at tanks stats in chicago:

 

2004 - 1 start played in 16 games - 12 tackles, 9 solo, 3 assists - .5 sacks

 

2005 - 4 games started and played in 16 - 25 tackles, 19 solo and 6 assists - FIVE sacks with 2 passes defended

 

2006 - 14 games and 10 starts - 26 tackles, 22 solo, 4 assists - 3.5 sacks, 1 safety, 1 pass defended

 

hmmmmm that's NINE sacks in 3 season and THREE passes defended!!!!!!!1

 

now let's look at our friend dusty:

 

2006 - 0 games played

 

2007 - 1 game played, 1 game started - 1 tackle, 1 solo - 0 sacks

 

2008 - 8 games played, 8 games started - 22 tackles, 18 solo, 1 assist - 0 sacks

 

hmmmm, NO sacks, NO passes defended

 

now, tell me WHO was the bigger contributor to what ails this franchise?

[madlithuanian]

I'll take the cigar, but only if it's Cuban.

 

Anyway, you're comparisons are off...you can't quite compare exacts...but if you want, look at Tanks 2006 v Dusty's current.

 

First, divide Tank's in 2, since we're only half way through this current season with Dusty.

 

That's Tank 13 tackles, 1.75 sacks, 1/2 a saftey, and 1/2 a PD

That's Dusty 22 tackles, 0 sacks, however, nfo just mentioned that Dusty has 2 PD's.

 

I'd say that's about even. If not advantage Dusty.

 

Neither is that much bigger a contributor than the other. Time to slueth out a different hypothesis...

 

 

ok, what is the biggest problem on defense this season? if you said rushing the passer you get a cigar.

 

let's look at tanks stats in chicago:

 

2004 - 1 start played in 16 games - 12 tackles, 9 solo, 3 assists - .5 sacks

 

2005 - 4 games started and played in 16 - 25 tackles, 19 solo and 6 assists - FIVE sacks with 2 passes defended

 

2006 - 14 games and 10 starts - 26 tackles, 22 solo, 4 assists - 3.5 sacks, 1 safety, 1 pass defended

 

hmmmmm that's NINE sacks in 3 season and THREE passes defended!!!!!!!1

 

now let's look at our friend dusty:

 

2006 - 0 games played

 

2007 - 1 game played, 1 game started - 1 tackle, 1 solo - 0 sacks

 

2008 - 8 games played, 8 games started - 22 tackles, 18 solo, 1 assist - 0 sacks

 

hmmmm, NO sacks, NO passes defended

 

now, tell me WHO was the bigger contributor to what ails this franchise?

[Lucky Luciano]

i DON'T believe dusty is even close to the production we got out of tank as our #2 tackle. tank was good not only at stopping the run but putting pressure on the qb. he not only had pretty good speed for a guy that big but was quick off the snap and had a lot of push up the middle.

 

I am not looking at pure production, because IMHO, much of Tank's "production" was due to the production of those around him. I do not buy and argument that Wale, Brown and Anderson were better because of him. I think the opposite would be true. As for now, our DL as a whole is failing to produce, and thus the play of the current DTs are not going to reflect the production of the past.

 

Personally, I was just never "that" impressed w/ Tank. I thought he was a decent DT, but felt he benefited from those around him more than the other way around. Now this is not to say I think Dusty or Harrison are great. I simply don't believe the dropoff (if any) between Tank and our current DTs is really much.

 

huh?? that makes NO sense at all. don't you think the production of key players are reflected by the guys in the trenches next to them??

 

you say our de's were not better because of tank. i contend that one of the major problems of our de's is they are NOT getting any help by our tackles push up the middle!!! the qb's are NOT getting flushed out of the pocket so our de's can GET their hands on them. as it stands qb's have a solid ring of offensive bodies forming a pocket to step up INTO!! look up the sack stats since tank left.

 

a. brown:

 

2004 - 6 sacks

2005 - 6 sacks

2006 - 7 sacks

2007 (no tank) 4.5 sacks

2008 9no tank) 3 sacks after 1/2 season

 

walley:

 

2004 - 5 sacks

2005 - 10 sacks

2006 (injury year?) 6.5 sacks

2007 - (no tank) 9 sacks

2008 - (no tank) 1.5 sacks

 

anderson:

 

2006 - 12 sacks

 

2007 - (no tank) 5 sacks

 

2008 - (no tank) 0 sacks

 

 

how many times have you seen dusty knocking down an opponents thrower? so to me that makes dusty a one dimensional tackle, at least at this point in his career, and one not even as good as keith traylor at stopping the run.

 

Well, I haven't seen much knocking down of the passer by any of our DL, or defense as a whole for that matter. Is Tommie Harris one dimensional? I sure haven't seen him near the QB.

 

could it be that tank and tommie together got enough penetration to, at the least, harass the qb? hmmm

 

rivera? what does rivera have to do with quickness and power coming out of the blocks for a defensive tackle to get push up the middle? it's not like we are playing a totally different scheme since rivera left and especially the tackle position. we still are putting them into the gaps.

 

Few differences. When Rivera was here, we moved our DEs around more, and created more outside pressure. In doing this, our DTs were more often freed up. That is compared to now when our DEs are often blocked by only the OT, and the opponent often has extra protection inside.

 

sorry, but this has nothing to do with the push your tackles get in the center of the line.

 

as far as the d as a whole i agree. we need/ed a dc like rivera who isn't a yes man and has more options in his bag of tricks.

 

We do agree here. I've had this discussion w/ others before. By and large, we have the same personnel as we did two years ago when our defense dominated. Last year and this year though, we have flat out stunk, and injuries are no longer a valid excuse. You can point to the loss of Tank, but I simply do not agree that is a significant loss. If Tank were on this team today, I doubt seriously we would see any difference.

 

you are entitled to your opinion as am i. but i think there would be a difference with a tackle that has that initial quicknes/burst of speed along with the power to push your guards and tackles back into the pocket. with dusty we just haven't seen it.

[Lucky Luciano]

Hold the phone. You want to compare 3 years w/ Tank to 1/2 of one season for Dusty? I am not sure I understand that one.

 

One. Dusty has a grand total of 9 games played, and yet you want to compare his numbers w/ those of Tank, who has 42.

 

hold that phone a little tighter, YOU'RE the one who said there was not much drop off from dusty to tank! does the unreliability of dusty staying healthy skew the actual fact that production from dusty doesn't equal that of tank over a 3 year period?

 

Two. I never said that just Dusty was equal to Tank, but said Dusty and Harrison. Harrison has 2 sacks thus far, and seems on pace to be even w/ what Tank provided.

 

so then what you are saying is that it takes TWO of our tackles to equal one tank? one to stop the run and one to rush the passer? if harrison is so great why isn't HE starting?

 

Three. You say Dusty has no passed defended, while Tank had 3 in 3 seasons. According to ESPN, Dusty has 2 PDs this year. So Dusty has 2 PDs in 9 games, compared to Tank's 3 in 42. Oops.

 

my bad on missing the two.

 

Just curious. Are you just arguing to support Tank, who you always liked, or are you truly arguing our DL's lack of pass rush is due to the loss of Tank?

 

i am doing both.

 

first: it was stupid letting him go (i DON'T want to start that type of thread again so take it for what it's worth)

 

second: if it takes TWO players to equal one, that's not a loss to you?? that's like saying that mark anderson and alex brown equals richard dent.

[Lucky Luciano]

Tank is not an elite DT. I don't think Dusty is either at this point. But there is not a gap the size of the Grand Canyon beetween the 2 of them. Saying the Bears D is struggling this year because we don't have Tank Johnson is an enormous stretch.

 

first, i never said tank was "elite". i said he was a good #2 tackle and better than what we have and in my opinion it is a large PART of the reason we get no push up the middle.

 

I agree with nfo, the common denominator is Rivera. And while he worked within the cover 2, he manipluated it far more, even using a 46 every now and then. He also had his guys stunting,etc...

 

and who disagreed with you or nfo? now, are you saying rivera stunted more than babs and that's the reason why we get no push up the middle anymore? if so show me the game stats that there was more stunting by rivera and that has caused a drop off of pressure from our tackles on the qb.

[kyyle23]

Lets look at Tanks stats now, instead of 2-5 years ago

 

6 games, 0 sacks, 7 tackles, 0 PD

 

Or last year, conveniently left off as well

 

8 games, 2 sacks 9 tackles, 2 PD

 

 

So a guy who has 16 tackles, 2 sacks and 2 PD in the last two years is a difference maker in this defense?

[Lucky Luciano]

Lets look at Tanks stats now, instead of 2-5 years ago

 

6 games, 0 sacks, 7 tackles, 0 PD

 

Or last year, conveniently left off as well

 

8 games, 2 sacks 9 tackles, 2 PD

 

 

So a guy who has 16 tackles, 2 sacks and 2 PD in the last two years is a difference maker in this defense?

 

first of all he is/was behind another starting tackle in dallas if i am not mistaken.

 

second and most important.... this is NOT the same type of defense we run in chicago. there is NO comparison between what they run and a cover 2.

[nfoligno]

huh?? that makes NO sense at all. don't you think the production of key players are reflected by the guys in the trenches next to them??

Yes, but what I agrue is not the general, but the specific. I do not believe our DL benefited from Tank so much as Tank from them.

 

you say our de's were not better because of tank. i contend that one of the major problems of our de's is they are NOT getting any help by our tackles push up the middle!!! the qb's are NOT getting flushed out of the pocket so our de's can GET their hands on them. as it stands qb's have a solid ring of offensive bodies forming a pocket to step up INTO!! look up the sack stats since tank left.

 

I would agree our interior is hurting our exterior, but I simply do not believe that is due to the loss of Tank. You make out like Tank is a super stud who makes the rest of our DL elite, and w/o him they are busts.

 

As for your stats below, I think you have to look at them a little deeper.

 

a. brown:

 

2004 - 6 sacks

2005 - 6 sacks

2006 - 7 sacks

2007 (no tank) 4.5 sacks

2008 9no tank) 3 sacks after 1/2 season

 

One, you fail to point out that in 2007, Brown was the #3 DE while Anderson got the start. Later in the season, when Brown was elevated back to the starting job, he did well. Also, as you point out, Brown has 3 sacks in a 1/2 season, which would project to 6. In otherwords, Brown is on pace for pre-tank stats.

 

walley:

 

2004 - 5 sacks

2005 - 10 sacks

2006 (injury year?) 6.5 sacks

2007 - (no tank) 9 sacks

2008 - (no tank) 1.5 sacks

 

As you point out, Wale had 9 sacks w/o Tank, so I am not sure we can say his low sack total this year is due to Tank's absence.

 

anderson:

 

2006 - 12 sacks

2007 - (no tank) 5 sacks

2008 - (no tank) 0 sacks

 

Again, you fail to point out elements. Anderson was a rookie stud when he was a situational pass rusher, but failed as a starter. So you state "no tank" but you fail to point out another major change.

 

could it be that tank and tommie together got enough penetration to, at the least, harass the qb? hmmm

 

Sure they did. But could it not have also been due to how Rivera used our DL, rather than how Babich does? As I have also said in another post, Harrison has 2 sacks on the year, which would project to be similar to Tank's numbers. IMHO, it isn't so much the #2 DT that is hurting us so much as the #1. Tank is just sucking arce this year.

 

sorry, but this has nothing to do with the push your tackles get in the center of the line.

 

Absolutely disagree. Right now, our DEs are doing nothing to force the QB up in the pocket, as was the case in the past. In fact, our DEs are being negated so much that QBs are able to back-peddle away from the interior, making it that much harder for the DTs. Also, I would point out the difference in how a team can devote blockers and protection. In the past, our DEs were doing enough that opponents had to devote extra protection on the outside, which opened things up inside. Now, when I watch the game, our DEs are handles w/ single blocks, while the interior is stuffed w/ extra protection, both to deal w/ the DTs and the inside blitz, as that seems to always be where we blitz.

 

you are entitled to your opinion as am i. but i think there would be a difference with a tackle that has that initial quicknes/burst of speed along with the power to push your guards and tackles back into the pocket. with dusty we just haven't seen it.

 

I am not trying to make out that Dusty is a great pass rusher. I tend to agree he is more a run stuffer, but I would also add that Harrison has been capable of penetrating, and is on pace to put up similar numbers to Tank. Thus I would argue the combo of Dusty/Harrison is little different from the combo of Tank/Scott.

 

In all, while I agree w/ the general ideas you present, I just disagree Tank was such a difference maker. I think our issues on the DL go WAY beyond Tank. Besides that #2 DT position, we have a pro bowl DT and 2 pro bowl caliber DEs, none of which are playing up to expected levels. I simply disagree Tank was ever such a stud that he elevated the play of those upper tier players, and w/o him, those upper tier players suck.

[nfoligno]

hold that phone a little tighter, YOU'RE the one who said there was not much drop off from dusty to tank! does the unreliability of dusty staying healthy skew the actual fact that production from dusty doesn't equal that of tank over a 3 year period?

 

Actually, I said, "Frankly, I am not sure he was even better than Dusty or Harrison". Maybe I should have said "and" rather than "or". You are pointing out Dusty alone, but my point was that we have both Dusty and Harrison in the rotation, where as we used to have Tank and Scott.

 

As for the 3 years v injury, the point was you can not compare the stats of a player who has 9 games v that of a player w/ 3 years.

 

so then what you are saying is that it takes TWO of our tackles to equal one tank? one to stop the run and one to rush the passer? if harrison is so great why isn't HE starting?

 

You act like it was all Tank, but it wasn't. We have always employed a rotation. Tank may have started, but he rotated w/ Scott (and others) pretty often. My argument is that Dusty/Harrison is little different from that of Tank/Scott.

 

first: it was stupid letting him go (i DON'T want to start that type of thread again so take it for what it's worth)

 

Not trying to restart that thread, but we disagree. Tank showed, like Benson, that he simply could not stay out of trouble. You can argue the level of the trouble, but he simply did not seem to understand how to avoid the situations that continually got him in trouble. Sometimes it takes a big thing, like being cut, to make you realize you have used up all your chances and to turn things around.

 

second: if it takes TWO players to equal one, that's not a loss to you?? that's like saying that mark anderson and alex brown equals richard dent.

 

As said, you seem to pretend Tank was an every down starter, and that we didn't utilize a rotation until he left. That is simply wrong.

[madlithuanian]

Lucky,

 

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Tank's a decent DT, but not the central key to the Bears success for the years leading up to/and the Super Bowl. I just don't see it in the least.

 

I won't be culling through 24 games as I don't have anything on film to try to prove the point of less stunting by Babich's crew. But, I just know what I see during a game, and I see very little from Babich compared to Rviera. Yep, it's possible my memory fails me... But, in contrast, please feel free to show me that Babich has indeed done as much or more stunting than Rivera's crew... In addition, I also see DB's playing far more away from WR's under Babich. Again, it's from observing games at game speed. I do not have access to film or Tivo'ed games, nor the time to prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Just my observation. Feel free to discard it if you wish since I do not have 100% according to Hoyle empirical evidence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

first, i never said tank was "elite". i said he was a good #2 tackle and better than what we have and in my opinion it is a large PART of the reason we get no push up the middle.

 

 

 

and who disagreed with you or nfo? now, are you saying rivera stunted more than babs and that's the reason why we get no push up the middle anymore? if so show me the game stats that there was more stunting by rivera and that has caused a drop off of pressure from our tackles on the qb.