Benson 104yds and a TD

[kyyle23]

first of all he is/was behind another starting tackle in dallas if i am not mistaken.

 

second and most important.... this is NOT the same type of defense we run in chicago. there is NO comparison between what they run and a cover 2.

 

You keep talking in circles. He is good enough to start and make an impact in Chicago, but he is stuck behind other starters in Dallas. His numbers for the first 3 years in Chicago are good enough to compare against Dusty's 8 whole games.

 

If we arent allowed to compare players because they play different defenses, then what are we allowed to compare?

[Lucky Luciano]

I'll take the cigar, but only if it's Cuban.

 

Anyway, you're comparisons are off...you can't quite compare exacts...but if you want, look at Tanks 2006 v Dusty's current.

 

First, divide Tank's in 2, since we're only half way through this current season with Dusty.

 

did you take into consideration how many games tank was suspended or didn't play in for that season?

 

let's look at this in perspective... over 3 years dusties sacks = 0. over 3 years tanks = 9

 

there is no way you can compare what isn't there. the fact is tank got push up the middle, tank DID sack the qb AND stop the run. the last i heard getting to the qb is the MAIN problem with our defense!!!

 

I'd say that's about even. If not advantage Dusty.

 

Neither is that much bigger a contributor than the other. Time to slueth out a different hypothesis...

 

the statistics >>>CLEARLY

 

you can spin this however you want but the facts don't lie. dusty DOES NOT push the pocket backwards and tank DID and the sack stats prove it.

 

a coincidence that our defense is flat out bad? i think not.

[nfoligno]

By your below rationale, maybe the problem is we let Alfonso Boone go. Boone had 2 sacks in 2006, and thus that proves he could get to the passer, right?

 

In 2005, we had Boone, Michael Haynes and Idonije all getting sacks from the interior. None are playing DT for the bears now (Idonije barely). Coincidence our DL sucks today? Maybe it is because we lost all them.

 

Come on. Do you realize how good you are making Tank out to be? In 2005 and 2006, our DL racked up a ton of sacks, not to mention our LBs as well. Today, little to nothing. You honestly think Tank is such a stud that his loss is such a difference? He is the reason Harris has gone from elite to absent? He is the reason Wale went from double digit sacks to 1.5? Or Anderson from 12 to nada. Or Urlacher from 6 to nada?

 

Seriously? You think Tank Johnson is such a stud, and elevates the players around him that much? And yet he isn't even good enough to win a starting job in Dallas?

 

I know you like Tank, always supported him and felt it was a mistake to cut him, but your over the top on this one. To stake the position that our DL sucks today simply due to the loss of Tank is so out there, I don't even know what to say. Tank was good, but to have had the impact you make out, he would have had to have been one of the best DTs of all time.

 

did you take into consideration how many games tank was suspended or didn't play in for that season?

 

let's look at this in perspective... over 3 years dusties sacks = 0. over 3 years tanks = 9

 

there is no way you can compare what isn't there. the fact is tank got push up the middle, tank DID sack the qb AND stop the run. the last i heard getting to the qb is the MAIN problem with our defense!!!

 

the statistics >>>CLEARLY

 

you can spin this however you want but the facts don't lie. dusty DOES NOT push the pocket backwards and tank DID and the sack stats prove it.

 

a coincidence that our defense is flat out bad? i think not.

[madlithuanian]

Bad analogy. I had forgot Tank was suspended or didn't play. Even with that, the stats are still not overwhelming.

 

Why don't you ask how Tank did that under Rivera's team and not under Dallas? Could it be the scheme and talent around him?

 

You talk of spin, and you're beyond guilty of it. The sack stats are skewed as nfo pointed out earlier. There's lies, damn lies and statistics...and I'm sorry, Tank ain't better than sliced bread.

 

Follow the other common denominator please...ie. Rivera/Babich. Or maybe it was Benson? Please...Tanks is not the second coming of Mongo.

 

did you take into consideration how many games tank was suspended or didn't play in for that season?

 

let's look at this in perspective... over 3 years dusties sacks = 0. over 3 years tanks = 9

 

there is no way you can compare what isn't there. the fact is tank got push up the middle, tank DID sack the qb AND stop the run. the last i heard getting to the qb is the MAIN problem with our defense!!!

 

 

 

the statistics >>>CLEARLY

 

you can spin this however you want but the facts don't lie. dusty DOES NOT push the pocket backwards and tank DID and the sack stats prove it.

 

a coincidence that our defense is flat out bad? i think not.

[GrizzlyBear]

Wow I really can not beleive this is even brought up.

[Lucky Luciano]

Lucky,

 

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Tank's a decent DT, but not the central key to the Bears success for the years leading up to/and the Super Bowl. I just don't see it in the least.

 

I won't be culling through 24 games as I don't have anything on film to try to prove the point of less stunting by Babich's crew. But, I just know what I see during a game, and I see very little from Babich compared to Rviera. Yep, it's possible my memory fails me... But, in contrast, please feel free to show me that Babich has indeed done as much or more stunting than Rivera's crew... In addition, I also see DB's playing far more away from WR's under Babich. Again, it's from observing games at game speed. I do not have access to film or Tivo'ed games, nor the time to prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Just my observation. Feel free to discard it if you wish since I do not have 100% according to Hoyle empirical evidence.

 

first, i am not defending babich in any way. i completely believe rivera had a more aggressive and creative type of defense whether he ran more stunts or not. i think he certainly ran more man coverages and was more creative in his blitz packages. but... it also can be said that of late babs has run more line stunts than he has in the past and we are still seeing the same results. so how does that relate to your assumption it is all on our dc as to how much pressure our defensive tackles put on a qb?

 

second, in regards to our db's playing off the line. this has virtually nothing to do with how much penetration our tackles are getting. also, i am not seeing what you say you are observing. our corners have been playing off the LOS for years and certainly post mcquarters. it WAS tried putting peanut AND vasher up in bump and run until they got burned so bad and so consistently they moved them back off the line.

 

do i think they are playing out of position by giving that much cushion? absolutely. it has and will continue to kill us ESPECIALLY since we get no pressure on the qb.

[Lucky Luciano]

You keep talking in circles. He is good enough to start and make an impact in Chicago, but he is stuck behind other starters in Dallas. His numbers for the first 3 years in Chicago are good enough to compare against Dusty's 8 whole games.

 

If we arent allowed to compare players because they play different defenses, then what are we allowed to compare?

 

as i have stated repeatedly tank is a good #2 tackle who excelled in the gap type of defense we run in chicago because of his strength, speed and quickness. that is why angelo drafted him!

 

how his talent relates to another type of defensive scheme i can't say. but believe me or not when i tell you certain players can excel in one type of defense and can be mediocre in another. if you don't believe that i am not going to argue the point with you.

[Lucky Luciano]

hold that phone a little tighter, YOU'RE the one who said there was not much drop off from dusty to tank! does the unreliability of dusty staying healthy skew the actual fact that production from dusty doesn't equal that of tank over a 3 year period?

 

Actually, I said, "Frankly, I am not sure he was even better than Dusty or Harrison". Maybe I should have said "and" rather than "or". You are pointing out Dusty alone, but my point was that we have both Dusty and Harrison in the rotation, where as we used to have Tank and Scott.

 

what ever... this is EXACTLY what you said - "I simply don't believe the dropoff (if any) between Tank and our current DTs is really much." who you crappin?

 

As for the 3 years v injury, the point was you can not compare the stats of a player who has 9 games v that of a player w/ 3 years.

 

then why are YOU?

 

so then what you are saying is that it takes TWO of our tackles to equal one tank? one to stop the run and one to rush the passer? if harrison is so great why isn't HE starting?

 

You act like it was all Tank, but it wasn't. We have always employed a rotation. Tank may have started, but he rotated w/ Scott (and others) pretty often. My argument is that Dusty/Harrison is little different from that of Tank/Scott.

 

you are saying there is little difference in our pass rush by dusty/harrison? all i can say is... wow.

 

second: if it takes TWO players to equal one, that's not a loss to you?? that's like saying that mark anderson and alex brown equals richard dent.

 

As said, you seem to pretend Tank was an every down starter, and that we didn't utilize a rotation until he left. That is simply wrong.

 

where are you getting this stuff? show me ANYWHERE i EVER said we don't/didn't utilize a rotation.

[madlithuanian]

OK. Let's first start by saying that I'm by no means giving all our players a pass on this. They do need to step up. However, I do not feel they are being utilized to their fullest extent. Just bull rushing every down does not make a good DT scheme. You need to mix things up. And also, what the DE's and some of the LB's do, also dictate what the DT's are able to do... It's all part of the package. It's virtually impossible to just straight compare the impact of one DT over another without looking at everything around him. Overall, Babich does not seem to be calling plays correctly. Yes, he's had some success and certainly did better in the 2nd half last week...AGAINST THE WORST TEAM IN THE NFL! What the F was the 1st half about? So, our ineptness is the sole problem of Dusty and Harrison? And having soon to be Hall of Famer, Tank Johnson, would just solve it? Please...

 

The DB's playing off the line makes a big difference. If the QB can release the ball quickly to an open WR 5 yards down the field, then the DT's can't do a thing. I'm not saying we need to go bump and run 24-7, but we need to do something to prevent these gimme slants that have been killing us all year. However, my comments wasn't really 100% related to DT pressure...it was more an indictment on the coaching staff F'ing up the defense in yet another area... Guys can play off the WR, but let's not give them a gimme 6 yards every play.

 

But your last comment pretty much falls in line of where I was going with the DB issue...

 

first, i am not defending babich in any way. i completely believe rivera had a more aggressive and creative type of defense whether he ran more stunts or not. i think he certainly ran more man coverages and was more creative in his blitz packages. but... it also can be said that of late babs has run more line stunts than he has in the past and we are still seeing the same results. so how does that relate to your assumption it is all on our dc as to how much pressure our defensive tackles put on a qb?

 

second, in regards to our db's playing off the line. this has virtually nothing to do with how much penetration our tackles are getting. also, i am not seeing what you say you are observing. our corners have been playing off the LOS for years and certainly post mcquarters. it WAS tried putting peanut AND vasher up in bump and run until they got burned so bad and so consistently they moved them back off the line.

 

do i think they are playing out of position by giving that much cushion? absolutely. it has and will continue to kill us ESPECIALLY since we get no pressure on the qb.

[Lucky Luciano]

By your below rationale, maybe the problem is we let Alfonso Boone go. Boone had 2 sacks in 2006, and thus that proves he could get to the passer, right?

 

In 2005, we had Boone, Michael Haynes and Idonije all getting sacks from the interior. None are playing DT for the bears now (Idonije barely). Coincidence our DL sucks today? Maybe it is because we lost all them.

 

this is laughable. do you KNOW why boone AND scott were usually rotated in? not only to stay fresh but because they were RUN STOPPING widebody tackles used mostly on rushing down situations!!! also are you now going to tell me haynes was a DT? or idonije in 2004-2006????

 

just to be clear on the stats issue, i used them as reference to support not only my opinion but my observations of actually WATCHING these tackles play. are you going to tell me you didn't see any/little difference in the push up the middle tank got compared to boone, scott and now dusty?? really?

 

Come on. Do you realize how good you are making Tank out to be? In 2005 and 2006, our DL racked up a ton of sacks, not to mention our LBs as well. Today, little to nothing. You honestly think Tank is such a stud that his loss is such a difference? He is the reason Harris has gone from elite to absent? He is the reason Wale went from double digit sacks to 1.5? Or Anderson from 12 to nada. Or Urlacher from 6 to nada?

 

Seriously? You think Tank Johnson is such a stud, and elevates the players around him that much? And yet he isn't even good enough to win a starting job in Dallas?

 

i will say it yet AGAIN for the final time... i NEVER stated tank is/was a stud. i SAID he is a good #2 tackle and is/was better than any tackle we currently have on this roster as our #2 rushing the passer in a gap type defense lovie smith runs in chicago!!! i don't give two $&!($ what he does or doesn't do in dallas now or forever!!!

 

in our type of defense tank was better than ANYONE you have mentioned in consistently creating a push into the pocket. when scott/boone (and now dusty/harrison) came in they were basically plugging up the line rather than attacking the qb because they got virtually no consistent push up the middle!! if you don't believe it go back and LOOK at the games and compare the players.

 

I know you like Tank, always supported him and felt it was a mistake to cut him, but your over the top on this one. To stake the position that our DL sucks today simply due to the loss of Tank is so out there, I don't even know what to say. Tank was good, but to have had the impact you make out, he would have had to have been one of the best DTs of all time.

 

today our defense forms a picketline around our opponents qb's in which they can stand there all day. if our de's actually DO pressure them they simply step up into the pocket because NOBODY is there to stop them or flush them out.

 

so if it's not the difference in the quality of pass rushing tackles what is it?

[Lucky Luciano]

OK. Let's first start by saying that I'm by no means giving all our players a pass on this. They do need to step up. However, I do not feel they are being utilized to their fullest extent. Just bull rushing every down does not make a good DT scheme. You need to mix things up. And also, what the DE's and some of the LB's do, also dictate what the DT's are able to do... It's all part of the package. It's virtually impossible to just straight compare the impact of one DT over another without looking at everything around him. Overall, Babich does not seem to be calling plays correctly. Yes, he's had some success and certainly did better in the 2nd half last week...AGAINST THE WORST TEAM IN THE NFL! What the F was the 1st half about? So, our ineptness is the sole problem of Dusty and Harrison? And having soon to be Hall of Famer, Tank Johnson, would just solve it? Please...

 

it's NOT the difference between babs and rivera that determine how much penetration a tackle gets per individual play. it's different physical and mental aspects each individual player executes in the same situation!!! go back and look at how they compare getting pressure on the qb.

[madlithuanian]

Do you really think the situations are the same? You even mention in an earlier post how he's not being used the same by Dallas.

 

If your ends are getting pressure, don't your guards then move into help a bit, thus opening things up for the DT's? Our ends are not getting any real pressure and I believe that is due to how they are being used.

 

Again, I just don't buy your overall arguement that not having Tank is why we are in the bottom of efensies now compared to being in the top of defenses previously...

 

it's NOT the difference between babs and rivera that determine how much penetration a tackle gets per individual play. it's different physical and mental aspects each individual player executes in the same situation!!! go back and look at how they compare getting pressure on the qb.

[Lucky Luciano]

Do you really think the situations are the same? You even mention in an earlier post how he's not being used the same by Dallas.

 

If your ends are getting pressure, don't your guards then move into help a bit, thus opening things up for the DT's? Our ends are not getting any real pressure and I believe that is due to how they are being used.

 

Again, I just don't buy your overall arguement that not having Tank is why we are in the bottom of efensies now compared to being in the top of defenses previously...

 

i am not sure what you mean by the ends getting blocked by guards thus freeing up the dt's. i think you need to rethink that statement. as far as de's not being used correctly? i have no argument with you on that.

 

finally: yet again you quote me on statements i NEVER made. did i ever say if tank was here we would have the best defense in the nfl? simply put, no.

 

what i have stated and will continue to state is that tank had more push up the middle than any of the tackles mentioned. don't just keep telling me it ain't so, LOOK FOR YOURSELF!!! do some research, watch some games tank played in and compare his rush to any #2 tackle on this defense currently playing.

 

EDIT: as far as this dallas nonsense.... it can't be compared because it's not only a different team but a different type of defense with different philosophies, different coaching agenda's, and different players.

[madlithuanian]

Maybe I wrote it oddly... If you're DE's are having a jailbreak every play agasint OT's, odds are OG's will come in and help, thus making it a little easier for DT's to get pressure.

 

I guess I'll have to re-wactch whenever NFL films plays something of an old game. I recall some great plays, but I don't recall the constant push you speak of. You very well may be right that Tank is getting more push than Dusty/Harrison. But I also don't see Wale and Brown doing nearly the same as they did years ago as well. It's all part of the equation. It's a team game. And say what you will of Tommie, he was a beast a few years back. Now, he's a shell of his former self. That holds a greater impact than anything I think. Not sure if it's injury,etc...but it is certainly impacting this D negatively.

 

I only bring up Dallas because I do not feel that this D is the same one implemented by Rivera. Thus, you can't make the 100% comparison.

 

I think we're arguing in circles here.

 

You feel Tank is significanly better than Dusty/Harrison and if still around, would have this D performing significantly better. I just don't see that. I feel it's how ALL the D is being used by the coaches. While I'm more than happy to give you your idea that Tank got more push, I just don't see that as the crux of the reason of this defense's downward slide to mediocrity.

 

 

i am not sure what you mean by the ends getting blocked by guards thus freeing up the dt's. i think you need to rethink that statement. as far as de's not being used correctly? i have no argument with you on that.

 

finally: yet again you quote me on statements i NEVER made. did i ever say if tank was here we would have the best defense in the nfl? simply put, no.

 

what i have stated and will continue to state is that tank had more push up the middle than any of the tackles mentioned. don't just keep telling me it ain't so, LOOK FOR YOURSELF!!! do some research, watch some games tank played in and compare his rush to any #2 tackle on this defense currently playing.

 

EDIT: as far as this dallas nonsense.... it can't be compared because it's not only a different team but a different type of defense with different philosophies, different coaching agenda's, and different players.

[Lucky Luciano]

Maybe I wrote it oddly... If you're DE's are having a jailbreak every play agasint OT's, odds are OG's will come in and help, thus making it a little easier for DT's to get pressure.

 

i would think on passing plays they use the TE, FB, HB to help block on the outside if the tackle is getting whacked by the end or some creative qb calls. the guards and center are holding the middle.

 

I guess I'll have to re-wactch whenever NFL films plays something of an old game. I recall some great plays, but I don't recall the constant push you speak of. You very well may be right that Tank is getting more push than Dusty/Harrison. But I also don't see Wale and Brown doing nearly the same as they did years ago as well. It's all part of the equation. It's a team game. And say what you will of Tommie, he was a beast a few years back. Now, he's a shell of his former self. That holds a greater impact than anything I think. Not sure if it's injury,etc...but it is certainly impacting this D negatively.

 

i agree our d-ends are not playing as well as the past and is as you, me and other say it probably has to do with our scheme. same goes for the rest of the d and includes using stunts as a way to break up the rhythm and predictability as we have talked about. but.... end play also has a lot to do with pressure up the middle. if there is a solid pocket to step up into or open passing lanes it makes it much harder for the ends to get to the qb or hurry him.

 

just to note, i don't believe tank was an all-pro player and didn't collapse the pocket every down. but i do think he worked extremely well with t. harris and did have to be accounted for by the offense in a passing situation. he was quick off the snap and had a lot of power which did create a lot more problems for o-linemen than anyone currently starting in chicago. this did have a very positive effect in our pass rush compared to what we have now.

 

I only bring up Dallas because I do not feel that this D is the same one implemented by Rivera. Thus, you can't make the 100% comparison.

 

the comparison between babs and rivera have to do with scheme and in my opinion not about the quickness and power of tank vs whoever. all of our tackles now and then play the gap type defense and come off the ball to push up the middle basically the same. the difference to me is one pushes the pocket in more consistently than the others flushing out the qb or at the least not leaving room to move up. there is the true comparison i was making.

 

You feel Tank is significanly better than Dusty/Harrison and if still around, would have this D performing significantly better. I just don't see that. I feel it's how ALL the D is being used by the coaches. While I'm more than happy to give you your idea that Tank got more push, I just don't see that as the crux of the reason of this defense's downward slide to mediocrity.

 

i agree this is NOT the complete reason for our slide to mediocrity. but i feel tank helped out our pass rush up the middle. whether the other aspects of our defense would become better because of it i can't say. i can only assume it would at least in some important aspects.

[madlithuanian]

Fair enough...