AZ54 Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 I just read two articles (one on the Trib one Sun Times) that are basically the same talking about how pathetic our pass D is. In one quote Vasher is saying giving up inside slants all day long is the scheme and everyone in the league knows it. Other quotes have Lovie and Babich both saying we're trying everything but there's only so much you can do. Tommie Harris chimes in that the pass rush is doing their job (they aren't). Alex Brown says "we're just not getting there" and he's right. The pass defense is a mess. Either it's scheme or players, or as I see it, both. Nobody seems to want any accountability and nobody wants to admit what needs to improve, or at least admit what must change. I know coaches don't have to single out players in the media but say something more than "we have players in the area we're just not making plays." JT O'Sullivan would still be starting in San Francisco if he played the Bears every week. While we attempt to sort out this mess the Packers are smiling as they do their film study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChileBear Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 While we attempt to sort out this mess the Packers are smiling as they do their film study. The Puckers are another team that will pick us apart in the air in Green Bay. And Lovie has no clue? I thought he was a defensive genius. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 My opinion, for what it is worth... I said this pre-season so this is not a knee jerk reaction. If this defense can not get it's collective head out of it's ass, Lovie must go. Lovie told us not to worry and Lovie has been dead wrong for a season and a half so far. Nobody need blame Babich. If it were Babich, Lovie would have subplanted him already. The shame of this is, we were all clamoring about the offense being the hold up with statements like: If the offense could give the D a breather, If only the offense could score early in the game. If the offense could put points on the the board, the D could pin it's ears back and get to the QB. If only we could get Mike Brown, Url and Tommie healthy, the D would be stellar. All those wishes have been granted by the football gods. Since Chico left, it's been Lovie and everyone knows it. Now, here's the problem if we fire Lovie - we lose Turner. Stop laughing, as I kinda chuckled too. But, if you look at it, he's finally got the balance required to run his scheme and it is working. If Turner goes, Orton has to learn another playbook and the offense could take a step back. Combine that with the new coach coming in and installing a new D, of which we would probably not have the personnel to run it. As bad as our D is, imagine how bad it would be if they had to change to a scheme not suited to their collective skillset. It's all Lovie... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixote Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 My opinion, for what it is worth... Combine that with the new coach coming in and installing a new D, of which we would probably not have the personnel to run it. As bad as our D is, imagine how bad it would be if they had to change to a scheme not suited to their collective skillset. It's all Lovie... Ah, but a GOOD HC sets the defensive schemes to match the skill set of the players he has on the team. If the defensive coordinator can not adust to the players available to run the defense, then he probably can not adjust his play calling to the offense we are playing against. I do not want that guy as our HC or DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 I have wondered for a while, and Vasher's comments seems to support, that our players have lost confidence in our staff/scheme. Thus both can be blamed. I do believe the scheme is a problem, but if the players do not buy into the scheme, the problem is only compounded. I don't think I have ever been a fan of Lovie's. Even when he took us to the SB, I honestly felt it was more in spite of Lovie than due to Lovie. And it has only gone down hill since. I do however put more fault w/ Babich than you. While I understand your point that Lovie should step in, the reality is Babich is our DC, and I think his playcalling is simply poor. I am not a fan of Lovie's scheme, which Babich runs, but I also think the greater issue is in-game playcalling. Too often is seems the opponents runs the perfect play to beat whatever defensive playcall we have for that down. Credit the OC, but I think you also have to knock the DC for the playcall. But, due in great part to our offense this year, we are likely to have a winning season, and maybe even playoffs, if not division title. Hard to see us firing Lovie after that. My only hope is that Angelo steps in, orders Lovie to fire Babich, and more importantly, to hire a DC that isn't simply a yes man for Lovie. We need a DC that has more of a free hand to run "his" scheme, vs having to try and do whatever Lovie tells him to do. My opinion, for what it is worth... I said this pre-season so this is not a knee jerk reaction. If this defense can not get it's collective head out of it's ass, Lovie must go. Lovie told us not to worry and Lovie has been dead wrong for a season and a half so far. Nobody need blame Babich. If it were Babich, Lovie would have subplanted him already. The shame of this is, we were all clamoring about the offense being the hold up with statements like: If the offense could give the D a breather, If only the offense could score early in the game. If the offense could put points on the the board, the D could pin it's ears back and get to the QB. If only we could get Mike Brown, Url and Tommie healthy, the D would be stellar. All those wishes have been granted by the football gods. Since Chico left, it's been Lovie and everyone knows it. Now, here's the problem if we fire Lovie - we lose Turner. Stop laughing, as I kinda chuckled too. But, if you look at it, he's finally got the balance required to run his scheme and it is working. If Turner goes, Orton has to learn another playbook and the offense could take a step back. Combine that with the new coach coming in and installing a new D, of which we would probably not have the personnel to run it. As bad as our D is, imagine how bad it would be if they had to change to a scheme not suited to their collective skillset. It's all Lovie... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 I do however put more fault w/ Babich than you. While I understand your point that Lovie should step in, the reality is Babich is our DC, and I think his playcalling is simply poor. I am not a fan of Lovie's scheme, which Babich runs, but I also think the greater issue is in-game playcalling. Too often is seems the opponents runs the perfect play to beat whatever defensive playcall we have for that down. Credit the OC, but I think you also have to knock the DC for the playcall. I tend to agree, but think you are missing the greatest weakness. Preparation. Our D is one dimensional, undisciplined and somewhat unmotivated. That all happens during the week. In game adjustments don't occur that much when you are submitting the other team to your will. What do you think Lovie works on all week? Babich is a game token, Lovie is everything else. orders Lovie to fire Babich, and more importantly, to hire a DC that isn't simply a yes man for Lovie. We need a DC that has more of a free hand to run "his" scheme, vs having to try and do whatever Lovie tells him to do. Rivera was that guy and he got ran out on a rail. Then, Lovie said those famous words... Hiring another DC get's Lovie another year or two of excuses and another scapegoat. Another thing Lovie is somewhat on the hook for is the huge contracts that were laid out to some really underperforming players. I know JA controls the purse strings, but Lovie has a ton of say. My hope is the defense gets hell bent for redemption and ends makes the Lovie / Babich debate moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 Couple points. First, regarding prep and motivation. I do think that is the DC, and would point out something Hampton said a week or two ago. A caller asked how much stock should fans put into the concept of a coach motivating players. Hampton said that coaches can do little to motivate player once the game begins, but that coaches should be working on this throughout the week. He talked about how Ditka/Buddy Ryan would begin on Wednesday motivating the players for the upcoming game. He talked about how coaches do little things all week to get the players hyped up for the game. He talked about how Rivera did a good job of this. He went on to talk about how Babich does not. W/ Babich, players just go through the motions throughout the week, and then expect to be able to just "turn it on" Sunday, but are unable. He really went off on Babich in the sense of motivation, but for his inability to do it throughout the week as opposed to on Sundays. Second, regarding a new DC. I agree that simply firing Babich and hiring another DC who will run Lovie's scheme does little to help. My hope is that we see Angelo step in, as he did w/ Jauron/Shoop, and insisnt on hiring a new assistant who has more autonomy. Angelo was not happy w/ Shoop, who was running an offense as Jauron wanted, and insisted on a change. That is what I am hoping happens again, as I do not see us firing Lovie. I would further point out the following. According to all sources, at least that I have read, Lovie originally wanted to hire Babich (I believe) to be the DC, but Angelo (among others) said no. They basically forced Lovie to hire Rivera. Rivera was not a Lovie guy, but our defense looked good running a combo of Lovie's scheme, buy w/ Rivera mixing it up better. Why not see that again. I tend to agree, but think you are missing the greatest weakness. Preparation. Our D is one dimensional, undisciplined and somewhat unmotivated. That all happens during the week. In game adjustments don't occur that much when you are submitting the other team to your will. What do you think Lovie works on all week? Babich is a game token, Lovie is everything else. Rivera was that guy and he got ran out on a rail. Then, Lovie said those famous words... Hiring another DC get's Lovie another year or two of excuses and another scapegoat. Another thing Lovie is somewhat on the hook for is the huge contracts that were laid out to some really underperforming players. I know JA controls the purse strings, but Lovie has a ton of say. My hope is the defense gets hell bent for redemption and ends makes the Lovie / Babich debate moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clnr Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 ... I would further point out the following. According to all sources, at least that I have read, Lovie originally wanted to hire Babich (I believe) to be the DC, but Angelo (among others) said no. They basically forced Lovie to hire Rivera. Rivera was not a Lovie guy, but our defense looked good running a combo of Lovie's scheme, buy w/ Rivera mixing it up better. Why not see that again. The way I heard it Lovie's first choice was Marinelli, but Tampa wouldn't let him go. Babich was then the second choice, but JA stepped in. I might be wrong here but that's what I recall. Anyone who has better memory than me? BTW, Marinelli will probably be fired in the offseason, does anyone want him as DC? I know it would still be Cover-2 and Lovie's guy, but I would have more faith in Marinelli than Babich. (just to clarify, I don't want this. I'm just throwing it out there for debate!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 The way I heard it Lovie's first choice was Marinelli, but Tampa wouldn't let him go. Babich was then the second choice, but JA stepped in. I might be wrong here but that's what I recall. Anyone who has better memory than me? BTW, Marinelli will probably be fired in the offseason, does anyone want him as DC? I know it would still be Cover-2 and Lovie's guy, but I would have more faith in Marinelli than Babich. (just to clarify, I don't want this. I'm just throwing it out there for debate!). Yea, you are right on your memory. Marinelli was his 1st choice, but among those who were actually available, Babich was the man. At least, that is what I meant. Marinelli as our next DC was brought up at the bar yesterday too. I think he would be an upgrade to Babich, but do not believe our D was be "that" much better. Personally, I think the players have lost faith in Lovie and his scheme, so even if you had a DC that called a better game, it would still be within the same scheme. So Marinelli would be an upgrade in my book, but at the same time, still be a wasted opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ54 Posted November 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 It's hard to look at Detroit's D and feel good about Marinelli coming here as our DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balta1701-A Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 It's hard to look at Detroit's D and feel good about Marinelli coming here as our DC. Which number is greater: number of 1st round picks on the Bears' defense or # of first round picks in the Lions' receiving corps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Hochuli 3:16 Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 It's hard to look at Detroit's D and feel good about Marinelli coming here as our DC. IMO, we have more talent than that defense in Detroit, though. Yet, I haven't been able to watch much of the Lions this year except twice (thank God), so I wouldn't know what their tendencies are and what Marenelli might bring over here, potentially. Hopefully it's the same scheme, but with a few twitches with tons of blitzes included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Agreed. The players are losing RESPECT for Lovie... Dangerous territory. Yea, you are right on your memory. Marinelli was his 1st choice, but among those who were actually available, Babich was the man. At least, that is what I meant. Marinelli as our next DC was brought up at the bar yesterday too. I think he would be an upgrade to Babich, but do not believe our D was be "that" much better. Personally, I think the players have lost faith in Lovie and his scheme, so even if you had a DC that called a better game, it would still be within the same scheme. So Marinelli would be an upgrade in my book, but at the same time, still be a wasted opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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