Nut being a standup guy

[nfoligno]

He should be moved to FS. At the same time, someone needs to kick Vasher in the arse. He needs to earn the money he is being payed starting next yr. Vasher and Graham at starting corrner next yr with Bowman and McBride as the backups (draft a corner as well).

 

It isn't that I believe Tillman can't play FS, but question whether Vasher is a better CB than Tillman. If not, then can we afford to move Tillman and replace two CBs? I like what I have seen from Graham, but at the same time, should it not be pointed out that last year, many felt McBride could become a starting CB, but this year, he seems to have really tanked.

 

In an ideal world, I would love to move Tillman to FS and Vasher to nickel, where I have ALWAYS felt he was best suited to play. But that would mean two new starters, which I am not sure we can afford. If I were to say right now, I would make Graham and Tillman my starters and Vasher my nickel. Tillman has not looked great at CB, but IMHO, he has looked a lot better than Vasher, and he at least has a legit injury excuse.

 

I think we can be fine at CB w/ what we have. Where I think we really need to look to upgrade is FS, which SHOULD be easier than finding a replacement at CB. IMHO, many plays where the CB looks exposed is really the fault of the FS. Often, the CB is supposed to release to the FS but the FS is late getting over, and thus the WR makes the play. It looks like the CB gave up the play, but in reality, it was not his responsibility, but the FS. We do not have a FS, and that should be a priority heading into next season. In fact, I would argue FS is our greatest priority on the defensive side of the ball.

[Lucky Luciano]

I have heard the question or comment about whether Tillman is a good cover corner or not. Frankly, I think that question is a bit moot. In our scheme, you do not need cover corners. In my mind, a cover corner is one who plays man. In our scheme, our corners play zone. Whether we are in a cover 2, cover 1 or cover 4, the majority of the time, we are playing a zone coverage. Do we play man some? Sure, but IMHO, very rarely.

 

i STRONGLY disagree.

 

quite frankly we and just about every cover 2 team plays that set 40% or less not to mention over the last number of years this system has been figured out and needs serious tweeking to be effective. that means you are playing 'basic' man coverage for the majority of time your defense is on the field. in my opinion at LEAST one good cover corner is needed if you want a good pass defense. that is why passing on charles woodson was a critical mistake angie made. with a woodson type cover corner we could have moved peanut to free safety (or even if they were stupid keep him as your #2 cb) and get by with an average + #2 like vasher or graham.

 

you also need an all-pro quality free safety for this system to work with even average corners. we don't have the safeties and our corners are below average which compounds the problem.

 

In a zone scheme, you simply do not need a shut down or cover corner. In our scheme, your corner is expected to: play off the LOS (though I would argue not as much as our does), show solid instincts, break on the ball, make solid tackles and support the run. There are things Tillman has shown he can do in the past. Right now, he looks poor, but is playing w/ two hurt shoulders, which is effecting his game. I would argue that most of the times in the past Tillman was flat beat was when he was taken out of zone situations, and thus outside the sort of coverage he is better geared to play.

 

read above in regards to a shut down corner. also, in our scheme the corner is NOT expected to play off the LOS. i don't know where you came up with that but it is not true in most instances if you have the right personel. the corners in this system are SUPPOSED to play up where they can put hands on the receivers (bump and run) at the LOS to slow him up and move him into the center of the field where your LB and safety zones pick him up. THAT is why you need a fast/smart free safety to be able to give support to the corners by covering a lot of ground.

 

and yes, you are right that the corners should be good tacklers and are used to support the run and tillman excels in that aspect. but i have to point out that the reason peanut/vasher do NOT play up is because they are bad at doing so because they can't contain or play with the speedsters not because lovie would like his corners playing 10 yds off the LOS.

[nfoligno]

i STRONGLY disagree.

 

quite frankly we and just about every cover 2 team plays that set 40% or less not to mention over the last number of years this system has been figured out and needs serious tweeking to be effective. that means you are playing 'basic' man coverage for the majority of time your defense is on the field. in my opinion at LEAST one good cover corner is needed if you want a good pass defense. that is why passing on charles woodson was a critical mistake angie made. with a woodson type cover corner we could have moved peanut to free safety (or even if they were stupid keep him as your #2 cb) and get by with an average + #2 like vasher or graham.

 

And I strongly disagree w/ your strong disagreement. You assume that if we are not playing a cover two, then we are in a base man coverage, but that is simply not correct. We run more packages than just those two. As Lovie talked about a while back, we run (other than cover two) cover one, cover four, and many other packages. Regardless what package we are in, the vast majority of the time, we run a zone coverage, not man.

 

For the record, understand. I am not a fan of zone coverage, but Lovie is. You talk about how we only run the cover two 40% of the time, or even less, but that has nothing to do w/ zone v man. We run many different packages, and most of them use zone coverage. I know this, as much as anything, because I watch how our CBs play and HATE the zone. It makes me sick when I see our corners let WRs go for the safeties and stick in a zone. But that is the sort of coverage Lovie loves.

 

I would love a CB like Woodson, or others, who are more in line w/ coverage corners, but we don't run the team. Frankly, it isn't just Lovie, as I believe Angelo like the zone style corners too.

 

you also need an all-pro quality free safety for this system to work with even average corners. we don't have the safeties and our corners are below average which compounds the problem.

 

Now here, I strongly agree w/ you. How we have handled our safety position has made me sick for years. It turns my stomach every time I hear Lovie and co talk about how our safeties are interchangable. That is BS. Your SS simply does not need the speed or coverage ability your FS does. Period. Mike Brown was an exception, as he was smart enough to compensate for a lack of pure speed. But even those smarts are not enough now, as he simply seems to have lost too much. But look at every other freaking safety we have drafted. They are all in the box strong safeties. DM doesn't count as he was drafted to be a CB. I agree we need a HUGE upgrade at FS.

 

read above in regards to a shut down corner. also, in our scheme the corner is NOT expected to play off the LOS. i don't know where you came up with that but it is not true in most instances if you have the right personel. the corners in this system are SUPPOSED to play up where they can put hands on the receivers (bump and run) at the LOS to slow him up and move him into the center of the field where your LB and safety zones pick him up. THAT is why you need a fast/smart free safety to be able to give support to the corners by covering a lot of ground.

 

Where do I get this. From watching all our games since Lovie came here. W/ the exception of a play here and there, when have you EVER seen our corners play on the LOS. And I am not just talking about Tillman and Vasher, but go back to when Lovie started w/ us and had McQ and Azumah. Regardless who our CBs have been, all have lined up off the LOS. Either every CB we have used for the last 5 seasons defies the coaches instructions, or our CBs are told to play off the LOS.

 

Also, I would point out that Lovie and the players both talk about how a main element of our scheme is to keep everything in front of you. So when our CBs line up off the LOS, that is what they are doing. Keeping everything in front of them. The idea is to force the opponent to make 10+ plays or so to get down field for a score, and the idea further is that in those 10+ plays, your D has that many opportunities to make a play.

 

and yes, you are right that the corners should be good tacklers and are used to support the run and tillman excels in that aspect. but i have to point out that the reason peanut/vasher do NOT play up is because they are bad at doing so because they can't contain or play with the speedsters not because lovie would like his corners playing 10 yds off the LOS.

 

I agree neither are great matchups w/ the speedsters of the league, but our CBs play off every WR, not just the speedsters. They gave freanking Moose an 8 yard cusion. WRs who are barely faster than my grandmother, who passed away several years ago, are given a wide cushion. It has nothing to do w/ the speed of the WR.

[danimal99]

I'd like to know in today's NFL who is a shut down corner ??

 

I venture to guess I watch as much NFL football as the next guy.

 

There isn't a shut down corner in the entire NFL.

 

As far as Tillman goes IMO he's a top 12 NFC CB.

 

The move him to safety talk is just that talk.

 

Nut's best position is CB and yes he had a bad game vs Minny.

[madlithuanian]

Champ Bailey's the only guy that comes to mind, and he's lost a step...

 

I'd like to know in today's NFL who is a shut down corner ??

 

I venture to guess I watch as much NFL football as the next guy.

 

There isn't a shut down corner in the entire NFL.

 

As far as Tillman goes IMO he's a top 12 NFC CB.

 

The move him to safety talk is just that talk.

 

Nut's best position is CB and yes he had a bad game vs Minny.

[BigDaddy]

He should be moved to FS. At the same time, someone needs to kick Vasher in the arse. He needs to earn the money he is being payed starting next yr. Vasher and Graham at starting corrner next yr with Bowman and McBride as the backups (draft a corner as well).

 

It isn't that I believe Tillman can't play FS, but question whether Vasher is a better CB than Tillman. If not, then can we afford to move Tillman and replace two CBs? I like what I have seen from Graham, but at the same time, should it not be pointed out that last year, many felt McBride could become a starting CB, but this year, he seems to have really tanked.

 

In an ideal world, I would love to move Tillman to FS and Vasher to nickel, where I have ALWAYS felt he was best suited to play. But that would mean two new starters, which I am not sure we can afford. If I were to say right now, I would make Graham and Tillman my starters and Vasher my nickel. Tillman has not looked great at CB, but IMHO, he has looked a lot better than Vasher, and he at least has a legit injury excuse.

 

I think we can be fine at CB w/ what we have. Where I think we really need to look to upgrade is FS, which SHOULD be easier than finding a replacement at CB. IMHO, many plays where the CB looks exposed is really the fault of the FS. Often, the CB is supposed to release to the FS but the FS is late getting over, and thus the WR makes the play. It looks like the CB gave up the play, but in reality, it was not his responsibility, but the FS. We do not have a FS, and that should be a priority heading into next season. In fact, I would argue FS is our greatest priority on the defensive side of the ball.

 

 

Oh, we could afford the CBs, it just means we need to part company with some folks. Right now, the two likely candidates should be Vasher and Hester. You can't pay Vasher what we are as a nickel. Just like we can't pay Hester what we are for being a possible #3 WR. I believe if we trade them before march, we can save a cap hit for a roster bonus. At least I think thats how it works. i was told the only money guaranteed Hester was the roster bonus and his salary of course and the same with Vasher. Somebody needs to send a message to this entire ball club. Coaches and players alike. Angelo can fix some mistakes here. We have people who can play for vasher and as for hester, hell, anything we put out there for a return guy is better than he is. Manning's doing just fine. As far as WR goes, we need to think about possibly making a trade for a Boldin, Housmensadeh type of guy and personally, I want them to draft a WR with the #1 pick. You give Orton some help and we'll see this thing turn around.

[BearSox]

I think everyone needs to consider our scheme here.

 

I have heard the question or comment about whether Tillman is a good cover corner or not. Frankly, I think that question is a bit moot. In our scheme, you do not need cover corners. In my mind, a cover corner is one who plays man. In our scheme, our corners play zone. Whether we are in a cover 2, cover 1 or cover 4, the majority of the time, we are playing a zone coverage. Do we play man some? Sure, but IMHO, very rarely.

 

In a zone scheme, you simply do not need a shut down or cover corner. In our scheme, your corner is expected to: play off the LOS (though I would argue not as much as our does), show solid instincts, break on the ball, make solid tackles and support the run. There are things Tillman has shown he can do in the past. Right now, he looks poor, but is playing w/ two hurt shoulders, which is effecting his game. I would argue that most of the times in the past Tillman was flat beat was when he was taken out of zone situations, and thus outside the sort of coverage he is better geared to play.

 

In man, there is little question, IMHO, that Tillman is better against the bigger WRs than he is against speedy WRs. He simply doesn't have the speed to matchup w/ the burners, but has shown the ability to fight w/ the bigger WRs for the ball. He probably can't even do that right now though due to his shoulders.

 

If we continue (after this year) to run primarily a zone coverage, then I think Tillman still has solid value at CB. If we were to move to a man coverage though, I think Tillman's value would drop a fair bit. In that event, I think we would nearly always have to roll extra safety help to his side.

The bolded statement is wrong. We probably play zone coverage for the majority, but we play a ton of man, and it's just probably a little bit off of how much we play zone. We blitz more then any other team in the league (which is said considering how we can't get consistent pressure on the QB), and when we bring 1, 2, or even 3, that leaves us with either cover 1 (which is basically man to man with a deep safety playing centerfield), cover 3 (this is actually the coverage we run the most), and cover 0 (which is man to man with nobody in zone).

 

I'm not going to deny our system runs a lot of zone coverages, but we run a whole lot more man situations then people realize. People hear tampa 2/cover 2 and automatically think cover 2 shell, automatic zone coverage, which is false. The only time we ever play a true cover 2 is when it's either 3rd and long, or the other team is down and in an all pass situation.

[azbearsfan]

The bolded statement is wrong. We probably play zone coverage for the majority, but we play a ton of man, and it's just probably a little bit off of how much we play zone. We blitz more then any other team in the league (which is said considering how we can't get consistent pressure on the QB), and when we bring 1, 2, or even 3, that leaves us with either cover 1 (which is basically man to man with a deep safety playing centerfield), cover 3 (this is actually the coverage we run the most), and cover 0 (which is man to man with nobody in zone).

 

I'm not going to deny our system runs a lot of zone coverages, but we run a whole lot more man situations then people realize. People hear tampa 2/cover 2 and automatically think cover 2 shell, automatic zone coverage, which is false. The only time we ever play a true cover 2 is when it's either 3rd and long, or the other team is down and in an all pass situation.

 

Thats exactly why Nut is not one of the better corners. He and Vasher both are system CB's. They are fit for the cover 2 zone where they dont have the deep responsibility especially when the front four are getting pressure and forcing QB mistakes. As we play less and less two and go to more man and 3 deep their flaws are magnified as we have seen.