WILLIAMSES - Out of the woods...for a week?

[madlithuanian]

JUDGE RULES IN FAVOR OF WILLIAMS AND WILLIAMS

Posted by Michael David Smith on December 3, 2008, 7:28 p.m.

Minnesota Vikings defensive tackles Pat Williams and Kevin Williams have won a big victory in their efforts to avoid being suspended by the National Football League

 

KSTP-TV in Minneapolis is reporting that Judge Gary Larson has issued a temporary restraining order against the NFL. That means, for now, that Williams and Williams should be allowed to play Sunday. The Williamses said they were heading straight from the courthouse to the Vikings’ practice facility.

 

However, this is far from over. KSTP reports that another hearing is expected in the next few days.

[Bears4Ever_34]

Jesus Christ how many free passes do they get? THEY SHOULD BE SUSPENDED!

[danimal99]

I think a lot could happen between now and game time.

 

The Wiliams boys are taking on the NFL and from what I've read the NFL Players Association

have all ready signed off on this on their last players association agreement with the NFL.

Meaning this judge will have to wake the hell up soon and rule in

favor of the NFL and uphold the suspension of both players.

[Connorbear]

This is part of the labor agreement with the players association.

 

The players themselves are ultimately responsible for what the put in their bodies.

 

Bottom line - these big fatties should be suspended. Why are the courts interfering????

 

Peace

[ChileBear]

This is part of the labor agreement with the players association.

 

The players themselves are ultimately responsible for what the put in their bodies.

 

Bottom line - these big fatties should be suspended. Why are the courts interfering????

 

Peace

Because Wilf knows that, without the Williams boys his D will be no better than ours. So the owner is pulling out all the stops to keep them for the playoof run. Just take a look at how Wilf went with them both to the commish's hearing.

Now I'm not so sure that what they did was so criminal, but if Goodall and the NFL are going to be consistent, then they do need to be suspended. I'm just pissed it took the league so long to get around to it.

[Iguana]

so, I wonder if they drag this out for a couple games allowing them to get the playoff birth but their suspensions are upheld, will they be suspended for the postseason? or is it regular season games?

[ChileBear]

so, I wonder if they drag this out for a couple games allowing them to get the playoff birth but their suspensions are upheld, will they be suspended for the postseason? or is it regular season games?

Could be possible. Then again, I wonder how the Comish woould feel if he suspended them for regular season games and they end up going to the Super Bowl. Players who would have been suspeneded playing in the top game? Now that would make the Comish and league look stoooopid!

[madlithuanian]

I think it's even simpler....

 

The judge gets elected by Vikings fans... He'll play ball and put a wrench in the maching if it means he'll get re-elected as the judge "Who tried to help the Williamses".

 

 

 

Because Wilf knows that, without the Williams boys his D will be no better than ours. So the owner is pulling out all the stops to keep them for the playoof run. Just take a look at how Wilf went with them both to the commish's hearing.

Now I'm not so sure that what they did was so criminal, but if Goodall and the NFL are going to be consistent, then they do need to be suspended. I'm just pissed it took the league so long to get around to it.

[selection7]

Previously I had given up hope that Minny would lose 3 of it's next 4. But, now, isn't it true that our previously non-existant playoff hopes would be revived by a four game suspension of the Williams wall? We control our fate w.r.t. Green Bay, and if Minny loses 3 out of the next 4 (now more likely without the Williams') and the Bears win 3 out of 4, then the Bears would have a 9-7 record and Minny would have an 8-8. The tiebreaker would no longer matter. Hard to believe 9-7 could be the best record in the division, but it could.

 

Our D is playing better now. We just need the WR's to be able to get off the bump-and-run and get separation...without ruining the timing of their route...or at least make the opposing D pay with big plays that forces them to cut that crap out. If our guys aren't capable, we need to get Orton a WR who can because it will never stop. That, and Orton's injury are the only things that have changed since back when the O was prolific.

[nfoligno]

Sorry, I know this is not a popular opinion for a bear fan, but it just isn't so simple.

 

Players are responsible for what they put in their bodies. Yes. But should there not be a reasonable expectation here? Should a player have to send any drug they consider using to a lab to be tested? Short of that, it sounds like at least the NO players made a best effort to be clean.

 

The ingredients of the drug were listed on the bottle, and did not list the substance banned by the league. Even still, from what I have read, two NO players made the extra effort to call the league Drug Hot Line. According to this hot line, there was nothing in the drug on the banned list. To make matters worse, the leagues doctor apparantly did find out the drug had the banned substance, and took no measures to make sure this fact was known. He did not even see too it the substance was added to the list on the hot line recording.

 

Seriously, what more is a player supposed to do. We can talk about players responsibility, but I think there has to be a reasonable level to that. Further, by having the hot line set up, it seems like the league is sharing responsibility here.

 

Now, I have never heard/read that the Minny players to the added step of contacting the league's hot line. Thus, I have no problem w/ their suspension. I do feel the NO players should be excused though. At some point, you have to say a player did everything in their power to be in the right.

 

This is part of the labor agreement with the players association.

 

The players themselves are ultimately responsible for what the put in their bodies.

 

Bottom line - these big fatties should be suspended. Why are the courts interfering????

 

Peace

[selection7]

At some point, you have to say a player did everything in their power to be in the right.

I agree in general, as long as the Williams' still get suspended:)

Also, keep in mind that just from a logical perspective, bearing full responsibility does not necessarily say anything about what the punishment has to be, unless the rule has a "mandadory" clause. While bearing full responsibility covers a quantitative assessment of how cupability is meted out, it says nothing about a qualitative assessment of what actually happened that deserves punishment (and the result-that the banned substance ended up in their bodies above allowable limits-is only part of what happened).

[DaBearSox]

again...we are who we are and if it is going to take suspensions to one of our rivals strengths to get us in the playoffs, I dont want to be there...

[nfoligno]

I think the 4 game suspension is mandatory, and I don't think there is much wiggle room in that. Either the player is found guilty or he isn't.

 

IMHO, there is a very real problem w/ the rule. A player in this situation, who did all he could to make sure he was doing nothing wrong in taking a diaretic supplement receives the same punishment that a player like Merriman, who flat out takes roids receives. The league looks at it black and white, w/o grey.

 

To me, that is simply weak.

 

I agree in general, as long as the Williams' still get suspended:)

Also, keep in mind that just from a logical perspective, bearing full responsibility does not necessarily say anything about what the punishment has to be, unless the rule has a "mandadory" clause. While bearing full responsibility covers a quantitative assessment of how cupability is meted out, it says nothing about a qualitative assessment of what actually happened that deserves punishment (and the result-that the banned substance ended up in their bodies above allowable limits-is only part of what happened).

[madlithuanian]

Agreed.

 

But maybe these guys were taking that to mask something... I suppose it's easier in the long run to lay a blanket edict down than say each item is up in the air.

 

I think the 4 game suspension is mandatory, and I don't think there is much wiggle room in that. Either the player is found guilty or he isn't.

 

IMHO, there is a very real problem w/ the rule. A player in this situation, who did all he could to make sure he was doing nothing wrong in taking a diaretic supplement receives the same punishment that a player like Merriman, who flat out takes roids receives. The league looks at it black and white, w/o grey.

 

To me, that is simply weak.

[nfoligno]

With regard to the potential for it being a masking agent, I'll be honest. I know very little about this stuff and can't speak on that either way.

 

As for the blanket edict being easier. I agree. But is easy always good? There have simply been times when players showed exactly what they took and it was flat out obvious there was no attempt to use an enhancing substance. For exmaple, Jim Miller. Yet these players receive the same punishment someone like Merriman gets. Sorry, but I think that is wrong.

 

More specific to this story though, I simply believe it shows a dramatic flaw in the process. The drug company hid the banned substance. That alone makes me question whether or not to come down on a player. But the situation is made worse. Two of the NO players called the league hot line for drugs, and the ingredients listed were all legal. So the player have done everything short of sending the drug to an independant lab for testing, which is flat out unreasonable IMHO. To make matters worse still, it has been shown the league knew of the hidden ingredient, and didn't let the player know, or even update their freaking hotline so player who did take that extra step could find out.

 

I understand the rules and the reason for the rules, but when an individual does everything in their power to make sure they are staying on the right side of the law, and still get nailed, then I think there is a major failure in the system. Instead of recognizing this, the league seems to take a "tough @#$#" stance.

 

Agreed.

 

But maybe these guys were taking that to mask something... I suppose it's easier in the long run to lay a blanket edict down than say each item is up in the air.

[danimal99]

again...we are who we are and if it is going to take suspensions to one of our rivals strengths to get us in the playoffs, I dont want to be there...

 

We are who we are ?????? Ya it's that simple.

 

We're clean and their dirty....... we are who we are .

[madlithuanian]

Easier isn't always good, but it is easier...

 

I think all of us think of the Jim Miller thing when this stuff comes up. He's the least likely to be using a thing!

 

I guess I follow the edict of a player is respnsible for what goes into their bodies. That is the rule first and foremost... Everything else, in my mind is superfluous... In the instance of the 2 guys calling the league...there may be some ground to over-turn, but unless the league specifically said, go ahead and take it, I still fault the players. Even if the league is being sneaky trying to nail players, then so be it. Is that not the cost of playing in the league. If you are not 100% sure, don't do it. The league basically says not to take suppliments...those that do, simply run some risk. No one here is getting fired, etc.. But they will get substantial punishment. In the end, none of the guys nabbed are gong to the SB...their teams aren't good enough to compete with the upper echelon.

 

I kind of think tough cookies... Jim Miller paid the price, why should these guys skate?

 

 

 

 

 

With regard to the potential for it being a masking agent, I'll be honest. I know very little about this stuff and can't speak on that either way.

 

As for the blanket edict being easier. I agree. But is easy always good? There have simply been times when players showed exactly what they took and it was flat out obvious there was no attempt to use an enhancing substance. For exmaple, Jim Miller. Yet these players receive the same punishment someone like Merriman gets. Sorry, but I think that is wrong.

 

More specific to this story though, I simply believe it shows a dramatic flaw in the process. The drug company hid the banned substance. That alone makes me question whether or not to come down on a player. But the situation is made worse. Two of the NO players called the league hot line for drugs, and the ingredients listed were all legal. So the player have done everything short of sending the drug to an independant lab for testing, which is flat out unreasonable IMHO. To make matters worse still, it has been shown the league knew of the hidden ingredient, and didn't let the player know, or even update their freaking hotline so player who did take that extra step could find out.

 

I understand the rules and the reason for the rules, but when an individual does everything in their power to make sure they are staying on the right side of the law, and still get nailed, then I think there is a major failure in the system. Instead of recognizing this, the league seems to take a "tough @#$#" stance.

[nfoligno]

We simply disagree.

 

First, the league does not, even basically, say not to take suppliments. If they did, frankly, it would make things much easier.

 

Second, I personally believe only in a reasonable level of responsibility. You say, "if the players are unsure", but how much greater of a level of sure could there be? Both the drug company and the league hid the truth. Seriously. Is the new rule then that any player that wants to take a supplement must first send each and every bottle to a lab for testing? Short of that, there is no way to be 100% sure. And if that is the rule, I think it is simpy messed up.

 

If I were running this show, I would give the Saints players a pass, as they seemed to take every step reasonable to make sure they were in the right. The Minny players? If they can not show they called the hot line, then they didn't use every resource available, and I have less issue w/ their being punished.

 

Easier isn't always good, but it is easier...

 

I think all of us think of the Jim Miller thing when this stuff comes up. He's the least likely to be using a thing!

 

I guess I follow the edict of a player is respnsible for what goes into their bodies. That is the rule first and foremost... Everything else, in my mind is superfluous... In the instance of the 2 guys calling the league...there may be some ground to over-turn, but unless the league specifically said, go ahead and take it, I still fault the players. Even if the league is being sneaky trying to nail players, then so be it. Is that not the cost of playing in the league. If you are not 100% sure, don't do it. The league basically says not to take suppliments...those that do, simply run some risk. No one here is getting fired, etc.. But they will get substantial punishment. In the end, none of the guys nabbed are gong to the SB...their teams aren't good enough to compete with the upper echelon.

 

I kind of think tough cookies... Jim Miller paid the price, why should these guys skate?

[ChileBear]

We simply disagree.

 

First, the league does not, even basically, say not to take suppliments. If they did, frankly, it would make things much easier.

 

Second, I personally believe only in a reasonable level of responsibility. You say, "if the players are unsure", but how much greater of a level of sure could there be? Both the drug company and the league hid the truth. Seriously. Is the new rule then that any player that wants to take a supplement must first send each and every bottle to a lab for testing? Short of that, there is no way to be 100% sure. And if that is the rule, I think it is simpy messed up.

 

If I were running this show, I would give the Saints players a pass, as they seemed to take every step reasonable to make sure they were in the right. The Minny players? If they can not show they called the hot line, then they didn't use every resource available, and I have less issue w/ their being punished.

Just read that now a Federal Judge has blocked the suspensions, saying he needs more time to look at the league's and players' cases. So, these guys will be on the field this Sunday at least.

[madlithuanian]

We agree and disagree...

 

Really? I could swear I read that somewhere the league highly discourages the use of suppliments. But, I can't find it, so I'm probably wrong. Then, I'd agree with you that they should.

 

I see working in the NFL as a privelidge, not a right. You adhere to the rules or no. If you do not like the rules, maybe Arena, the new UFL (or whatever it's called) or Canada can work. One may be able to take the league to task for setting players up to fail by not fully disclosing info they had... But I thought I read that they had given the NFLPA the info to distribute... Regardless, lawyers will have a field day.

 

If you ran the show, I'd have no problem with your verdict...

 

 

We simply disagree.

 

First, the league does not, even basically, say not to take suppliments. If they did, frankly, it would make things much easier.

 

Second, I personally believe only in a reasonable level of responsibility. You say, "if the players are unsure", but how much greater of a level of sure could there be? Both the drug company and the league hid the truth. Seriously. Is the new rule then that any player that wants to take a supplement must first send each and every bottle to a lab for testing? Short of that, there is no way to be 100% sure. And if that is the rule, I think it is simpy messed up.

 

If I were running this show, I would give the Saints players a pass, as they seemed to take every step reasonable to make sure they were in the right. The Minny players? If they can not show they called the hot line, then they didn't use every resource available, and I have less issue w/ their being punished.