ASHKUM BEAR Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 I'm wondering what JA is thinking about Lovie and what Lovie is thinking about JA. I think maybe there's a little rift going on and our next move may be a sign of things to come. Lovie Smith said in his post season interview that it didn't help when he lost his #1 and #2 WR. I take those comments as strikes towards JA. I even think this started about a year ago. Muhammad was released in Feb, Berrrian was not resigned and then Lovie stated "Devin can be a #1 WR in this league" putting pressure on Hester and JA. The Bears also had Mark Bradley who IMO Angelo wanted to see get his shot, but Lovie refused. If it was Lovies choice not to play/develop and then cut Bradley, I'm sure JA was not to pleased at the time wasted with a high draft pick. In Jerry Angelo's press conference, he made the bold statement that it all comes down to having a QB. I seen that statement as an attack back at Lovie for bringing up the fact of losing BB/MM. The attack on the QB could have many meanings, like telling Orton not to even think about demanding a new contract or it could go back to training camp when the "fair" competition didn't go JA's way (Grossman). Angelo also mentioned how he didn't understand why Earl Bennett didn't get to see the field. His speech IMO showed retaliation on Lovie. What the two have said recently makes me believe that there not completely on the same page and this is costing us fans. Right now, I tend to be on JA's side b/c like he mentioned about Earl Bennett, it makes me wonder about some of the other draft picks/players. Lovie also moved Riveria out to make room for his pal Babich who has looked incompetent and brought this team down making JA/Bears D look bad. Now we have Marinelli in the picture and even though Marinelli/Lovie are pals, Marinelli/JA have a connection also and I hope he signs to maybe put pressure on Lovie's back. Marinelli may have failed in DET, but could be JA's last resort if Lovie can't get on the same page. Could this be a sign? Since JA has 1 more year of contract than Lovie, Angelo won't start another scheme, but may try another coach if Lovie don't turn it around within the next 1-2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 In Jerry Angelo's press conference, he made the bold statement that it all comes down to having a QB. I seen that statement as an attack back at Lovie for bringing up the fact of losing BB/MM. The attack on the QB could have many meanings, like telling Orton not to even think about demanding a new contract or it could go back to training camp when the "fair" competition didn't go JA's way (Grossman). Angelo also mentioned how he didn't understand why Earl Bennett didn't get to see the field. His speech IMO showed retaliation on Lovie. To me, if that comment is an indictment on anyone, it would be Angelo himself. Who drafted Grossman? Who drafted Orton, who he is not 100% sold on? Who brought in all the veteran hacks? While I do NOT want to be in a position to defend Lovie, he can only work with what he is given. Angelo has failed to give us a franchise QB. He drafted Rex, and then basically put all his eggs in the Rex basket for the next half decade. So when he talked about how it is all about the QB, to me, he was only indicting himself. What the two have said recently makes me believe that there not completely on the same page and this is costing us fans. Right now, I tend to be on JA's side b/c like he mentioned about Earl Bennett, it makes me wonder about some of the other draft picks/players. Lovie also moved Riveria out to make room for his pal Babich who has looked incompetent and brought this team down making JA/Bears D look bad. Now we have Marinelli in the picture and even though Marinelli/Lovie are pals, Marinelli/JA have a connection also and I hope he signs to maybe put pressure on Lovie's back. Marinelli may have failed in DET, but could be JA's last resort if Lovie can't get on the same page. Could this be a sign? Since JA has 1 more year of contract than Lovie, Angelo won't start another scheme, but may try another coach if Lovie don't turn it around within the next 1-2 years. I agree the happy marriage is a bit on the rocks. Angelo would have to be an absolute idiot to still have full and absolute confidence in Lovie. And I am sure Lovie looks around at the failed draft picks and FA additions, and thinks to himself he can only do so much. Where I am not sure I agree is that Angelo will have another opportunity after Lovie. Regardless of contracts, I think the two are tied to each other. Lovie is Angelo's 2nd coach, regardless of the fact the first was not his choice. He might have a better case to see it through another coach firing, but I don't think his drafts and FA signings have panned out enough for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo3451 Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 I agree the happy marriage is a bit on the rocks. Angelo would have to be an absolute idiot to still have full and absolute confidence in Lovie. And I am sure Lovie looks around at the failed draft picks and FA additions, and thinks to himself he can only do so much. Where I am not sure I agree is that Angelo will have another opportunity after Lovie. Regardless of contracts, I think the two are tied to each other. Lovie is Angelo's 2nd coach, regardless of the fact the first was not his choice. He might have a better case to see it through another coach firing, but I don't think his drafts and FA signings have panned out enough for that. I'm sure Lovie has a lot of input on the players JA brings in via the draft and FA, so I don't think he can lay blame on JA for that. Pulling the trigger on FA's is a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDaddy Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 In Jerry Angelo's press conference, he made the bold statement that it all comes down to having a QB. I seen that statement as an attack back at Lovie for bringing up the fact of losing BB/MM. The attack on the QB could have many meanings, like telling Orton not to even think about demanding a new contract or it could go back to training camp when the "fair" competition didn't go JA's way (Grossman). Angelo also mentioned how he didn't understand why Earl Bennett didn't get to see the field. His speech IMO showed retaliation on Lovie. To me, if that comment is an indictment on anyone, it would be Angelo himself. Who drafted Grossman? Who drafted Orton, who he is not 100% sold on? Who brought in all the veteran hacks? While I do NOT want to be in a position to defend Lovie, he can only work with what he is given. Angelo has failed to give us a franchise QB. He drafted Rex, and then basically put all his eggs in the Rex basket for the next half decade. So when he talked about how it is all about the QB, to me, he was only indicting himself. What the two have said recently makes me believe that there not completely on the same page and this is costing us fans. Right now, I tend to be on JA's side b/c like he mentioned about Earl Bennett, it makes me wonder about some of the other draft picks/players. Lovie also moved Riveria out to make room for his pal Babich who has looked incompetent and brought this team down making JA/Bears D look bad. Now we have Marinelli in the picture and even though Marinelli/Lovie are pals, Marinelli/JA have a connection also and I hope he signs to maybe put pressure on Lovie's back. Marinelli may have failed in DET, but could be JA's last resort if Lovie can't get on the same page. Could this be a sign? Since JA has 1 more year of contract than Lovie, Angelo won't start another scheme, but may try another coach if Lovie don't turn it around within the next 1-2 years. I agree the happy marriage is a bit on the rocks. Angelo would have to be an absolute idiot to still have full and absolute confidence in Lovie. And I am sure Lovie looks around at the failed draft picks and FA additions, and thinks to himself he can only do so much. Where I am not sure I agree is that Angelo will have another opportunity after Lovie. Regardless of contracts, I think the two are tied to each other. Lovie is Angelo's 2nd coach, regardless of the fact the first was not his choice. He might have a better case to see it through another coach firing, but I don't think his drafts and FA signings have panned out enough for that. It looks as if the honeymoon is coming to an end but as far as these two being tied to each other, if Smith makes no change with Babich this year, brings in a couple alsorans as d line and secondary coaches and doesn't win next year, he WILL be fired. Angelo is not going to risk his job by backing Smith another year because then they WOULD be locked at the hip. Hey, I haven't given up hope that there will be a battle in the coming days with Angelo and Smith over the DC position and it results in Smith resigning and taking his addlepated buddy with him. Hey, it's all I got... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 I'm sure Lovie has a lot of input on the players JA brings in via the draft and FA, so I don't think he can lay blame on JA for that. Pulling the trigger on FA's is a different story. I'm sure Lovie has input as to the positions he wants added, but I am not so sure Lovie has massive input into the actual players drafted. Lovie is not a scout, nor does he have (that I know of) a scouting background. I have a feeling Lovie has a lot to do w/ establishing team needs, and such, but in so far as actually deciding which players to take, I am not so sure he has as much of an opinion. Is he even in the war room on draft day? I didn't think he was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Everyone is so quick to assume that if Lovie has a bad year next year, he will be fired, but: (a) while we did not make the playoffs, wanna bet how much we will hear about how we did finish w/ a winning record? While few on this board would call this season a sucess, it would mean a bad 2009 would NOT be a 3rd losing season in a row, but only a 1st. ( Even after 2009, Lovie will still have something like $10m still owed on his contract. Don't be so quick to assume we will eat the money. If we have a bomb season, I can see it. But I am not sure 7-9 (for example) gets ownership to eat $10m. Also, I am just not sure why so many assume Lovie can be fired, and Angelo will stick. Why does everyone believe Angelo is thought of so highly. Angelo came out and said, "It is all about the QB", but it is he who has drafted and signed the wrong men, and failed to find that franchise QB. It is Angelo who has drafted many busts, and signed more in FA. And it is Angelo who has consistently paid players who have not lived up to their new contracts. Sorry, but I just do not see why so many believe Angelo would stick if Lovie is fired. I think the two are joined. If we get to the point of firing Lovie, I think we will also see Phillips step in and pink slip Angelo. I think if we hit the point of letting Lovie go, we will see Phillips clean house. It looks as if the honeymoon is coming to an end but as far as these two being tied to each other, if Smith makes no change with Babich this year, brings in a couple alsorans as d line and secondary coaches and doesn't win next year, he WILL be fired. Angelo is not going to risk his job by backing Smith another year because then they WOULD be locked at the hip. Hey, I haven't given up hope that there will be a battle in the coming days with Angelo and Smith over the DC position and it results in Smith resigning and taking his addlepated buddy with him. Hey, it's all I got... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDaddy Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Everyone is so quick to assume that if Lovie has a bad year next year, he will be fired, but: (a) while we did not make the playoffs, wanna bet how much we will hear about how we did finish w/ a winning record? While few on this board would call this season a sucess, it would mean a bad 2009 would NOT be a 3rd losing season in a row, but only a 1st. ( Even after 2009, Lovie will still have something like $10m still owed on his contract. Don't be so quick to assume we will eat the money. If we have a bomb season, I can see it. But I am not sure 7-9 (for example) gets ownership to eat $10m. Also, I am just not sure why so many assume Lovie can be fired, and Angelo will stick. Why does everyone believe Angelo is thought of so highly. Angelo came out and said, "It is all about the QB", but it is he who has drafted and signed the wrong men, and failed to find that franchise QB. It is Angelo who has drafted many busts, and signed more in FA. And it is Angelo who has consistently paid players who have not lived up to their new contracts. Sorry, but I just do not see why so many believe Angelo would stick if Lovie is fired. I think the two are joined. If we get to the point of firing Lovie, I think we will also see Phillips step in and pink slip Angelo. I think if we hit the point of letting Lovie go, we will see Phillips clean house. You make a good point about the 10M but you also have to look at it from a purely business perspective. Do you want to spend 5M or 10M when you know the product is bad and waste 2 more years or do you take your lumps and get on with building a hopeful winner now? Yeah, it does cost 5-10M anyway, but probably not since Lovie is so highly thought of, we should get some help with the salary. The bigger issue in ALL of this to me is the time factor. If they let lovie hang 2 more years, it might be 4-5 more years then until these guys get back to the playoffs and THAT is only if they make the right moves. Playoffs = revenue so 10M won't hurt that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 What you are saying makes perfect financial sense, but how often have you seen owners simply take a much more short-sighted outlook? Sucess leads to greater profits. That has always been the case, yet history has seen (often) teams go cheap to save money, even though spending more would equal more. I think it become more complicated when you factor the $10m loss is factual, while the believed potential for greater profit (due to sucess and playoffs) is theoretical. Just because we dump Lovie, does not automatically mean we will have a better team. In fact, the team could look at Lovie's tenure w/ the team, and say they have had more sucess under him, and more winning seasons and playoff wins than in the last what, two decades? While I would totally agree w/ you, Lovie has done more financially for this team than the previous two decades worth of staffs. Honestly, while everyone is assuming another season w/o the playoffs would mean Lovie is fired, I am simply not so sure. If he has another average season, but misses the playoffs, I am simply not sold he would be fired. Now, if the team takes a major step backward, and ends up w/ like 5 or 6 wins, or fewer, than the odds increase, but if he ends w/ 7, 8 or 9 wins and no playoff, I am simply not sure he is fired. I also think Angelo is a factor here too. I personally believe Lovie and Angelo are tied at the hip. I do not see us firing Lovie and keeping Angelo. Thus, it is a big move to fire both, and I think we will have to really tank next year to see that happen. You make a good point about the 10M but you also have to look at it from a purely business perspective. Do you want to spend 5M or 10M when you know the product is bad and waste 2 more years or do you take your lumps and get on with building a hopeful winner now? Yeah, it does cost 5-10M anyway, but probably not since Lovie is so highly thought of, we should get some help with the salary. The bigger issue in ALL of this to me is the time factor. If they let lovie hang 2 more years, it might be 4-5 more years then until these guys get back to the playoffs and THAT is only if they make the right moves. Playoffs = revenue so 10M won't hurt that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 I couldn't agree more! Smith is safe for 2 more years. He's been a mastermind of convincing the powers that be that they are only minor steps away...whereas the reailty is they are leaps and bounds away from truly being great. Meandering though inept opponents in the worst division in the NFL is not something to rest your laruels on... Last year it was injuries, this year it was players not getting it done, what excuse will this year be? I eagerly await the clean house in 2 years... Everyone is so quick to assume that if Lovie has a bad year next year, he will be fired, but: (a) while we did not make the playoffs, wanna bet how much we will hear about how we did finish w/ a winning record? While few on this board would call this season a sucess, it would mean a bad 2009 would NOT be a 3rd losing season in a row, but only a 1st. ( Even after 2009, Lovie will still have something like $10m still owed on his contract. Don't be so quick to assume we will eat the money. If we have a bomb season, I can see it. But I am not sure 7-9 (for example) gets ownership to eat $10m. Also, I am just not sure why so many assume Lovie can be fired, and Angelo will stick. Why does everyone believe Angelo is thought of so highly. Angelo came out and said, "It is all about the QB", but it is he who has drafted and signed the wrong men, and failed to find that franchise QB. It is Angelo who has drafted many busts, and signed more in FA. And it is Angelo who has consistently paid players who have not lived up to their new contracts. Sorry, but I just do not see why so many believe Angelo would stick if Lovie is fired. I think the two are joined. If we get to the point of firing Lovie, I think we will also see Phillips step in and pink slip Angelo. I think if we hit the point of letting Lovie go, we will see Phillips clean house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madlithuanian Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 I hope Teddy the numbers boy follows your logic! You make a good point about the 10M but you also have to look at it from a purely business perspective. Do you want to spend 5M or 10M when you know the product is bad and waste 2 more years or do you take your lumps and get on with building a hopeful winner now? Yeah, it does cost 5-10M anyway, but probably not since Lovie is so highly thought of, we should get some help with the salary. The bigger issue in ALL of this to me is the time factor. If they let lovie hang 2 more years, it might be 4-5 more years then until these guys get back to the playoffs and THAT is only if they make the right moves. Playoffs = revenue so 10M won't hurt that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHKUM BEAR Posted January 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Everyone is so quick to assume that if Lovie has a bad year next year, he will be fired, but: (a) while we did not make the playoffs, wanna bet how much we will hear about how we did finish w/ a winning record? While few on this board would call this season a sucess, it would mean a bad 2009 would NOT be a 3rd losing season in a row, but only a 1st. ( Even after 2009, Lovie will still have something like $10m still owed on his contract. Don't be so quick to assume we will eat the money. If we have a bomb season, I can see it. But I am not sure 7-9 (for example) gets ownership to eat $10m. Also, I am just not sure why so many assume Lovie can be fired, and Angelo will stick. Why does everyone believe Angelo is thought of so highly. Angelo came out and said, "It is all about the QB", but it is he who has drafted and signed the wrong men, and failed to find that franchise QB. It is Angelo who has drafted many busts, and signed more in FA. And it is Angelo who has consistently paid players who have not lived up to their new contracts. Sorry, but I just do not see why so many believe Angelo would stick if Lovie is fired. I think the two are joined. If we get to the point of firing Lovie, I think we will also see Phillips step in and pink slip Angelo. I think if we hit the point of letting Lovie go, we will see Phillips clean house. I think if JA thought Lovie was the problem, he would be able to pull the trigger if needed. Lovie has 3 yrs remaining to Angelo's 4. I think if the Bears don't meet expectations after next year, that gives JA a 2 yr window. It wouldn't be a typical Bears move, but with a fan base that is showing more and more displeasure it'll be either Phillips pulling the plug or Angelo pulling the plug. The cheaper of the two and possibly the quicker fix may be to try a new coach. If Phillips pulls the plug, which I can't see happening for at least 2 yrs, will put us to back to 2011, and thats with us hoping we can have a turn around like Miami did. I'm willing to give Lovie 1 more year, that's it and if that means JA goes with him, I can live with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfoligno Posted January 6, 2009 Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 I think if JA thought Lovie was the problem, he would be able to pull the trigger if needed. Lovie has 3 yrs remaining to Angelo's 4. I think if the Bears don't meet expectations after next year, that gives JA a 2 yr window. It wouldn't be a typical Bears move, but with a fan base that is showing more and more displeasure it'll be either Phillips pulling the plug or Angelo pulling the plug. The cheaper of the two and possibly the quicker fix may be to try a new coach. If Phillips pulls the plug, which I can't see happening for at least 2 yrs, will put us to back to 2011, and thats with us hoping we can have a turn around like Miami did. I'm willing to give Lovie 1 more year, that's it and if that means JA goes with him, I can live with that. Couple things. One. You say, "the cheaper of the two". Is Lovie cheaper than Angelo? Lovie has 3 years and about $16m left on his deal. I really do not have a clue, but how much did we sign Angelo for? I guess I didn't realize Angelo was getting $5m per year. Two. While the two deals may have a year difference, as I recall, Angelo was extended to be about the same as Lovie. IMHO, the two were linked back then. Three. If Angelo had a better record in the draft and FA markets, I think he might stick after Lovie, but I just do not think his record, especially in the draft, is good enough to stay for a 3rd coaching staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASHKUM BEAR Posted January 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Couple things. One. You say, "the cheaper of the two". Is Lovie cheaper than Angelo? Lovie has 3 years and about $16m left on his deal. I really do not have a clue, but how much did we sign Angelo for? I guess I didn't realize Angelo was getting $5m per year. Two. While the two deals may have a year difference, as I recall, Angelo was extended to be about the same as Lovie. IMHO, the two were linked back then. Three. If Angelo had a better record in the draft and FA markets, I think he might stick after Lovie, but I just do not think his record, especially in the draft, is good enough to stay for a 3rd coaching staff. As for cheaper: I'll clarify that it will be cheaper to plug in a coach that fits JA's scheme rather than moving JA and Lovie and bring in a new GM, HC, Coordinators, position coaches, and players that fit the new scheme. The price/time to overhaul the organization could be long and expensive, and may not make us any better off. The short term "quick fix" will only be cheaper if it works out. If not, then it would cost even more b/c then you'd need to go with the whole tear down and rebuild mode anyways. As for how they are linked, Lovie is signed through 2011 and Angelo is signed through 2013 http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2783609 which I had to just look up. As far as the draft goes, how many guys do not get a fair shake b/c there not Lovies guys. It seems Lovie don't like to try new things unless forced(Beekman,Roach), so were left with not knowing about guys like (Bradley,Wolfe,Bennett, J Williams,- to name a few) I've also heard that Lovie had his say on D. Manning, D Bazuin, and M. Okwo, whether it's true, well never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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