Would anyone be interested in TO?

[nfoligno]

For me, this is easy. NO!

 

One. While Jason likes to talk about how we should not avoid players who have issues, I would argue that while we do not need to only look at angels, we at the same time do not need to look at the worst of the worst either. For years, Wrs were the prima donas of the league. Any good WR also seemed to be a jerk too. So you had no choice but to take the good w/ the bad. But IMHO, more and more good character Wrs have stepped up, and I no longer would agree you have to take the crap character if you want talent. Consider the top WRs in the league:

 

Andre Johnson - Very high character, which is really unusual as he came out of Thug U (Miami).

Fitzgerald - He wanted his money, but is considered a high character guy.

Steve Smith - He has his red flags. I am not sure he is among the lowest character guys, but far from the best.

Roddy White - I have never read any knocks on his character.

Calvin Johnson - High character.

G Jennings - Solid character

B Marshal - Charcter is about as bad as you will find.

Bryant - Low character

Welker - Super high character

Wayne - High character

 

There's your top 10 WRs in the league. Of the group, you have one serious bad boy (Marshall) and two weak character guys (Smith/Bryant). But you also have 7 WRs w/ solid character. I think the idea that if you want quality at WR, you have to deal w/ poor charcter is no longer valid.

 

Two. To me, TO is worse than many other low character guys. None of us like guys who have run-ins w/ the law, but I think (as a fan) that is not nearly as bad as what you get w/ TO. TO simply destroys teams w/ his negative character. Take this year. Even when the team was doing well on offense, TO was vocal in the press about not "getting his". He tore apart the team by complaining how Romo was not throwing to him enough, and was getting the ball to Witten, one of the league's elite TEs, instead. Here in Dallas, you couldn't go a day w/o hearing TO complain. But two things resulted. One, tons of stats were shown that showed how few of the times pass attempts went to TO that resulted in completions. The reality is, his drops, combined w/ his lesser ability to get open, hurt his numbers more than the QB not throwing to him 20 times a game. Also, there was a point in the season (happened last year too) when he pressured Romo to force the ball to him. The results were not good, at least not for the team. The simple reality of it is, TO was not getting open, and Romo forcing the ball to TO was not best for the team. But TO didn't/doesn't care.

 

Three. If it was just w/ one team, that would be one thing, but he has not destroyed 3 locker rooms. What makes ANYONE think we have the players/staff in place to prevent this from happening again. In SF, Phily and Dallas, he has more established coaching staffs and QBs, and yet that didn't stop TO from being destructive. Who really believe Lovie and/or Orton will have the ability to keep TO in check?

 

I'm sorry. I want to upgrade our WR position badly, but I simply see far more negative coming out of this than positive. We simply do not have the QB or coaching staff to even hope it would work. It is well and good to point to how Moss changed his ways in NE, but we have neither a QB like Brady, nor a HC like Billichek.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

Andre Johnson - Very high character, which is really unusual as he came out of Thug U (Miami).

Fitzgerald - He wanted his money, but is considered a high character guy.

Steve Smith - He has his red flags. I am not sure he is among the lowest character guys, but far from the best.

Roddy White - I have never read any knocks on his character.

Calvin Johnson - High character.

G Jennings - Solid character

B Marshal - Charcter is about as bad as you will find.

Bryant - Low character

Welker - Super high character

Wayne - High character

#1- Fitzgerald's wife has a restraining order against him. Perhaps his character isn't all fine and dandy as many perceive it.

 

#2- Boldin > Welker. You'd be nuts to take Welker over Boldin.

 

#3- Lee Evans, Houshmanzadeh, Dwyane Bowe, and maybe even Berrian are all better WR's then Antonio Bryant.

[danimal99]

I'll be dating Virgina McCaskey before the BEARS ever offer TO a contract.

 

Just say no to TO.

 

Special note:

 

Antonio Bryant has had 2 occasions were he's gone over 1000 yds receiving including the 08 season.

 

Berrian has never had 1000 yds receiving in a season.

[Boston Boxer]

Absolutely, 100% yes. I have said it before, and will say it again:

 

I'm in favor of the Bears picking up a stud WR who has character issues. Two years ago it was possible for the Bears to pick up TO AND Moss at the same time.

 

I've posed the question here before...but each time it's answered with a near consensus of "Hell no". And then weeks later the "We need a WR" threads start again. How far are you willing to go? How badly do you want to win? That's what it comes down to.

 

 

i hear what you are saying, but he did not make Dallas any better...and they have a better QB by far that what we have. I would be willing to do a 1 year contract with him...that is it

[bowlingtwig]

i hear what you are saying, but he did not make Dallas any better...and they have a better QB by far that what we have. I would be willing to do a 1 year contract with him...that is it

 

 

I agree with Boston here on a 1 yr contract. Somebody said it earlier he is money his year. I would only give him a multi year contract if he could guarantee not to be a cancer and throw people under the bus. However that is not going to happen. He is simply the best WR in the league when his character does not get in the way. I believe he is one of the best to ever play the game but his character issues continue to get in the way.

[nfoligno]

#1- Fitzgerald's wife has a restraining order against him. Perhaps his character isn't all fine and dandy as many perceive it.

 

Maybe not, but he sure does not seem to have the bad reputation. Maybe he is not a "great" character, but I definitely do not believe that, as of now, he is considered to be anything close to the prima dona as elite WRs of the past were.

 

#2- Boldin > Welker. You'd be nuts to take Welker over Boldin.

 

#3- Lee Evans, Houshmanzadeh, Dwyane Bowe, and maybe even Berrian are all better WR's then Antonio Bryant.

 

I was simply listing the top 10 WRs according to stats this year. I am not saying this would be "my" top 10, but simply using stats so as to avoid just such an argument. I too would put Boldin over Welker, though Welker would be part of my top 10. And I agree w/ TJ, Bown and probably Evans over Bryant. Not sure where I would put Berrian. I think he may be in the top 10 if you wanted to discuss downfield theats, but in terms of overall WR, no way. He simply has never been consistent enough of a WR. But again, this is beside the point. I was not trying to name the true top 10 WRs, but simply using this past years stats.

 

In the end, I think the point is the same. Not too long ago, when you looked at the list of the elite WRs in the game, high character would have been in the minority. Now, I would argue the prima donas are more in the minority.

 

Over the years, I think there have been myths. Those myths may have once been true, but over the years, changed, but public perception may not have changed w/ them. For example, for years, it was believed that WRs took 3 years to develop, and stats really supported that. In more recent times though, I think we have seen that (a) rookie WRs are coming in and making a greater impact and ( even those who don't do not necessarily need 3 years to develop. But still today, when talking draft, you will often see fans talk of passing on a WR because they will not help the team for 3 years, regardless of the many WRs who have developed/produced as rookies or 2nd year players.

[Connorbear]

I'm stunned that anyone on this board would say no to Owens. You guys want everything to be perfect, and that's just not the mold of today's players...especially WRs.

You must be stunned an awful lot.

 

I don't expect perfect, but I expect some degree of professionalism. TO is a complete and utter turd. No way, no how would I ever want him on a team I root for.

 

Peace

[azbearsfan]

No, no, hell no. He is a destroyer of teams and he would kill Orton verbally if he threw it to anybody else.

 

 

And BTW the best WR in the league is not the one with the most drops.

[GrizzlyBear]

Double your hell no and raise a triple hell no, Never in Million years would I have that SOB in bear uni. Blech!!!!!! Thanks for making me sick.

[BigDaddy]

In the past, I would say NO, NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER to Owens. He is a cancer and will bring this team down.

 

Down to where though? Is HE any worse a cancer than the one that's been eating away at this team the last couple years? I mean, look at this piss poor coaching staff. Look at Bob FREAKIN Babitch. Just because he smiles while his phucking up and is Lovies BFF is HE any less a cancer to this team and to our fans? Come on, how many players that didn't see the field alot or jst didn't get alot of PT have left the Bears only to excel elsewhere? More important, can anyone name 1 player that has truly been developed by this bunch? We see Justin Gage go to Tenn after spending 4 yrs here and catching passes totaling 900 yds. IN 4 YRS! He goes to Tennessee and was hurt 4 games this year and still puts up over 1400 yds in 2 yrs. He never had better than 340 in Chicago and his 1st yr with an idiot throwing him the ball in Tenn he gets 750 yds.

 

Guys, we got cancer either way. What's the difference if it comes in the form of coaches or players? I'm not saying yes to Owens but I am saying think about it.

[nfoligno]

But is the best way to treat a cancer by ingesting more cancer?

 

As much as coaches are part of the problem, I also think our team sorely lacks leadership on the field. IMHO, Mike Brown and Olin Kreutz are the only two players who have ever (recent history) showed leadership, but Brown said himself he doesn't feel right taking on the role when he has missed so much time and w/ Kreutz play deteriorating by the minute, I question how effective his words are today.

 

So w/ a team so lacking in leadership, I think adding a player like TO is a major mistake. It's one thing to point to Moss in NE, but in that situation, you have one of the best, no-nonsense coaching staffs and a team filled w/ leaders who are simply better keeping a player in check. And frankly, I have always felt a key to keeping Moss happy was winning. Even w/ all the factors NE has, if they were to begin losing, I wonder how good Moss would act. If we added TO, are you sure we would win. If not, I think we would absolutely see the very worst side of TO.

 

In the past, I would say NO, NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER to Owens. He is a cancer and will bring this team down.

 

Down to where though? Is HE any worse a cancer than the one that's been eating away at this team the last couple years? I mean, look at this piss poor coaching staff. Look at Bob FREAKIN Babitch. Just because he smiles while his phucking up and is Lovies BFF is HE any less a cancer to this team and to our fans? Come on, how many players that didn't see the field alot or jst didn't get alot of PT have left the Bears only to excel elsewhere? More important, can anyone name 1 player that has truly been developed by this bunch? We see Justin Gage go to Tenn after spending 4 yrs here and catching passes totaling 900 yds. IN 4 YRS! He goes to Tennessee and was hurt 4 games this year and still puts up over 1400 yds in 2 yrs. He never had better than 340 in Chicago and his 1st yr with an idiot throwing him the ball in Tenn he gets 750 yds.

 

Guys, we got cancer either way. What's the difference if it comes in the form of coaches or players? I'm not saying yes to Owens but I am saying think about it.

[jason]

And you think that is Owens? LOL. Go ahead and believe that

 

Actually, if you don't believe that you're crazy.

 

The guy constantly says that he's awesome. He is perhaps the most conceited player in the league. He is without a doubt under the belief that if he gets the ball more his team will win. He is without a doubt more of a problem when his team is losing, than when they are winning. In fact, he rarely speaks up when his team is winning. Last but not least, the "along for the ride" comment is essentially what his whole persona is...he wants to be in front of the pack, wants to win, and he'll throw anyone under the bus who he feels were detrimental to the team on the field.

 

Is he always right? No, of course not.

Is he a locker room cancer? Absolutely.

 

But make no mistake, the guy is a superstar, one of the best WRs in the league, and he makes the most noise when he's not winning.

[jason]

Andre Johnson - Very high character, which is really unusual as he came out of Thug U (Miami).

Fitzgerald - He wanted his money, but is considered a high character guy.

Steve Smith - He has his red flags. I am not sure he is among the lowest character guys, but far from the best.

Roddy White - I have never read any knocks on his character.

Calvin Johnson - High character.

G Jennings - Solid character

B Marshal - Charcter is about as bad as you will find.

Bryant - Low character

Welker - Super high character

Wayne - High character

 

There's your top 10 WRs in the league.

 

Didn't read your previous reply...sorry for the repeat attack.

 

Ignoring the point of this thread, I have a huge problem with your list. I know you went by receiving yards, but that's not a true measure of who the top WRs are in the league. If it were, then Muhsin Muhammed would be better than TJ Houshyomomma, and we all know from experience that isn't true. And considering Welker, if you look at his stats before he was paired with Moss, it's not nearly as good.

Randy Moss

Terrell Owens

Anquan Boldin

 

All three are in the top ten WRs in the league. I'd also go so far as to say that Braylon Edwards, Marques Colston, and maybe a few others are better than some on the list.

[nfoligno]

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

 

One. He proved this year that he is not always happy when the team is winning. Even when the boys were winning, he began to gripe about not getting the ball enough. TO cried about how Romo was throwing to Witten too much, and how TO didn't feel the team was getting him the ball enough. So even when the team was winning, it wasn't enough if that was happening w/o TO getting his.

 

Two. 69 catches for 1,050 yards. That is not stats reflective of one of the best WRs in the league. Take a look at his stats over the last few years (Dallas). He had two nice years and one big year. Sure, those nice years look great for bear fans, but I am not sure they would have ranked him even in the top 10 of WRs.

 

There is no questioning how great of a player TO has been over his career, but I do think there is enough evidence to question how much he is beginning to decline. He is 35 years old. The drops were always there, but they seem to be coming at a greater rate. Also, while getting open never seemed to be a problem for TO, I think most any Dallas fan could tell you about how he really struggled to get open this year. He would have two DBs draped all over him, but still scream for Romo to throw him the ball. This is also reflected in a stat (I don't have it) that Dallas media was talking about. There is a stat that shows how many passes are thrown to a WR, compared to how many completions are made. In this stat, TO was near the bottom. Drops are part of it, but not a key part. The greater part of the stat reflected how he simply could not get open, and DBs were able to prevent the catch.

 

I am not saying TO is done. Not by any means. But I think his name is greater than his game at this point, and feel his game is likely only to go further downhill. And this does not even factor his "issues".

 

Actually, if you don't believe that you're crazy.

 

The guy constantly says that he's awesome. He is perhaps the most conceited player in the league. He is without a doubt under the belief that if he gets the ball more his team will win. He is without a doubt more of a problem when his team is losing, than when they are winning. In fact, he rarely speaks up when his team is winning. Last but not least, the "along for the ride" comment is essentially what his whole persona is...he wants to be in front of the pack, wants to win, and he'll throw anyone under the bus who he feels were detrimental to the team on the field.

 

Is he always right? No, of course not.

Is he a locker room cancer? Absolutely.

 

But make no mistake, the guy is a superstar, one of the best WRs in the league, and he makes the most noise when he's not winning.

[kyyle23]

Actually, if you don't believe that you're crazy.

 

The guy constantly says that he's awesome. He is perhaps the most conceited player in the league. He is without a doubt under the belief that if he gets the ball more his team will win. He is without a doubt more of a problem when his team is losing, than when they are winning. In fact, he rarely speaks up when his team is winning. Last but not least, the "along for the ride" comment is essentially what his whole persona is...he wants to be in front of the pack, wants to win, and he'll throw anyone under the bus who he feels were detrimental to the team on the field.

 

Is he always right? No, of course not.

Is he a locker room cancer? Absolutely.

 

But make no mistake, the guy is a superstar, one of the best WRs in the league, and he makes the most noise when he's not winning.

 

So the proper way to be a leader is to throw your quarterback under the bus? i mean, he has only done that everywhere he has gone, and each one of those quarterbacks has thrown the ball to him every chance they have because they know he is a great wide reciever. Was Jason Witten, one of the best tight ends in the league detrimental to the team on the field? I think not. Jeff Garcia did nothing but feed TO the ball time and time again(remember TO catching 20 balls against the bears?), and TO completely sabotaged the situation and then made it personal against Garcia in the worst way possible(regardless if Garcia is or is not gay, thats none of TOs damn business and completely dirty and underhanded tactics). Great character guy, thats someone I want to root for there.

 

Dont get me wrong, I never said he was not good, I never said he was not a superstar, but I will argue with you until the cows come home if you believe that he is the type of player that honestly thinks "I want to win, jump on my back everybody!"

 

Its bullshit. It always has been, it always will be. If he was such a great leader then Philadelphia wouldnt have paid him and sent him home midway through the season and then outright released him, especially considering the fact that McNabb has been without a star WR for pretty much his entire career. TO is all about TO, and thats it. Quit getting his numbers confused with his attitude, because they are not one and the same.

[DaBearSox]

Isn't anyone going to talk about this guys drops....he'd be worse than moose

[madlithuanian]

Check nfo's posts in this thread. He mentions them quite a bit...

 

Isn't anyone going to talk about this guys drops....he'd be worse than moose

[nfoligno]

I think TO's drops are fairly well known. The thing is, there was a time when the drops were more than offset by the rest of his game. In fact, the rest of his game offset both the drops and character issues. But today, the drops and character have only gotten worse, while the actual play on the field has gotten down.

 

That is a bad combo.

 

Check nfo's posts in this thread. He mentions them quite a bit...

[nfoligno]

Okay, Top 10 WRs below.

 

Didn't read your previous reply...sorry for the repeat attack.

 

No attack felt. Just trying to bring it back to the original point, as threads (particularly mine) often go in directions such that the original point is totally forgotten.

 

Ignoring the point of this thread, I have a huge problem with your list. I know you went by receiving yards, but that's not a true measure of who the top WRs are in the league. If it were, then Muhsin Muhammed would be better than TJ Houshyomomma, and we all know from experience that isn't true. And considering Welker, if you look at his stats before he was paired with Moss, it's not nearly as good.

Randy Moss

Terrell Owens

Anquan Boldin

 

All three are in the top ten WRs in the league. I'd also go so far as to say that Braylon Edwards, Marques Colston, and maybe a few others are better than some on the list.

 

Okay, you are right. While I was trying to use the list for simplicity sake, you are right that the simple route actually hurts the argument as the list is simply off, thus are the results. So....

 

Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, Steve Smith, Brandon Marshall, Reggie Wayne. Can we agree these 5 are unquestionably in the top 10?

 

So you are not a fan of just looking at yards. Okay. Catches, Yards and Scores are the three categories I think most are going to look at for WRs. Looking at the 3 categories, the following were top 10 in at least two categories.

 

Boldin (yards/scores), Roddy White (catches/yards), Calvin Johnson (yards/scores), Jennings (yards/scores), Welker (catches/yards).

 

I would throw out the following names who didn't have a great year this year, but were among the elite last year.

 

Moss, TO, Braylon Edwards, Colston, Holt, Tj Hous.

 

So that gives us 11 WRs (unless you can think of more) to choose from to give us another 5 for the top 10.

 

I would eliminate Edwards, Holt and TJ. Edwards because of just how freaking bad he looked this year. Holt due to age and decline. TJ because as good as I think he is, he probably is not a top 10 WR. Maybe FF, but not NFL.

 

That gives us 8 to choose from, and here is an area I have a feeling you and I will disagree, as neither Moss, nor TO make my list. Moss is awesome, but I just do not think the player he once was. He can still be a tremendous playmaker, but just not w/ the consistency he once had. TO is just getting older and slower. Still a quality WR, w/o question, but not what he was. His inability to get seperation more than anything leads me to believe he is on his way down. While one of my favorite players, I would probably knock Welker off too. To be just outside the top 10 still speaks to his talent and what he does, but I simply would take the other WRs when looking at both consistency AND playmaking potential.

 

So Boldin, White, Calvin Johnson, Jennings and Colston would round out my list. All three are younger, still developing, and yet on a higher level than the older WRs who once dominated the elite lists.

 

So my top 10 would look something like, though in no particular order:

 

Andre Johnson

Larry Fitzgerald

Steve Smith

Brandon Marshall

Reggie Wayne

Anquin Boldin

Roddy White

Calvin Johnson

Greg Jennings

Marquis Colston

 

Of this group, Smith and Marshall have known character issues. I would not say any of the rest are considered character risks, and would absolutely say they are not considered the prima donas older elite WRs like Moss, TO, MeShawn Johnson, Chad Johnson, Joe Horn, Burress, Javon Walker or the like.

 

So my point now is still the same as it was originally. There once was a time when, if you wanted an elite WR on your roster, you most likely were going to have to accept bad character, as the vast majority of the elite WRs were at the same time bad characters. But today, I think that has changes. I think the prima dona WRs are falling by wayside, while higher character WRs are elevating up the boards. Now, maybe that is because they are young and need time to become jerks, but until we see that, I will continue to argue that you do not have to accept bad character to get a great WR.