Could our big FA be DL?

[nfoligno]

A Sun Times article discusses Lovie taking over on D, and goes on to talk about Lovie being "excited" about potential personnel changes, referring to players and not coaches. This led Briggs to wonder if we might not have our sights set on some of the big names in FA on the defensive side of the ball.

 

Now, I know many here want to add the CB from Oakland, but I personally do not believe he would even be considered. We run a scheme that relies on the pass rush, while cover two corners are not usually considered shut down caliber. So while many would like to add a stud CB, I don't see that in the plans.

 

If we are going to make a change to the personnel that would excite Lovie, I have to believe (as did Briggs) that we would be looking at the DL. Briggs threw out there 3 names who are very well known.

 

Haynesworth - Haynes is a freaking stud DT. He shuts down the run, and is a very good pass rusher as well. The idea of his pairing w/ Harris would make any Bear fan salivate. However, I want no part of him. Haynesworth is a player who has always been questioned in terms of motivation. He has always been good, but this year was a freak. I think it has to be asked, how much of his elevated play was due to being in a contract year? Many have speculated he will get fat and lazy (again) as soon as he signs his mega-deal, and make no mistake, it will be a mega-deal. On a team loaded w/ players who seemed to lose some of their motivation when they got paid, can we afford to sign another who most expect the same of?

 

Peppers - He is coming off a 14.5 sack season, and is excellent against the run as well. Some would say his resurgance was due to being in a contract year also, but I would argue he is very different from Albert. Peppers was dominant since entering the league. In his first 5 seasons, only once did he finish under double digit sacks, and even that year, he had more than any of our guys. He then had an awful 2007, riddled w/ injury, and then was back to form this past year. Maybe the contract year added to the motivation, but I would point out he played at a very high level well prior to that contract season. Peppers is a stud, and replacing Wale w/ Peppers would go a LONG way toward improving our pass rush. But many teams are going to feel the same way, and Peppers will get a sick contract.

 

Suggs - Suggs is a great pass rusher. The only question w/ Suggs might be, how well does he fit as a pure DE, as I believe he plays a LB/DE hybrid in Baltimore. No question he is going to get major interest in FA, particularly from 3-4 defenses. The question I think is whether his value in a cover two is equal to his value in a 3-4.

 

If we were to even consider the elite group listed above, to me, Peppers is the only one that makes sense. We made a hard push for Kearse some years ago, offering as much as around $20m signing bonus. To me, Peppers is a similar player to Kearse in that he was an elite pass rusher, while also being very solid against the run. Anyway, if we are looking to add one of the elite defensive players (and for the record, I would still prefer to go offense) Peppers is the only one I would say is a good fit/addition.

 

Again, and before Jason goes nuts, I want OL and WR. But reading Lovie's comments lead to the impression we might be looking to add to our DL first, and such this post.

[BearSox]

I agree with you on Haynesworth, and I'd be shocked if Tennessee didn't resign him. As for Peppers, there's no way the Panthers aren't keeping him. They are going to do everything in their power to retain him. If they lose him, there goes their D, IMO.

 

Suggs makes perfect sense for us though. He'll get paid a lot, but not as much as Peppers or Haynesworth, and he fits what we are looking for in a DE. Right now he's no. 2 on Baltimore's to do list as they need to bring back Ray Lewis. The biggest knock against Suggs in Baltimore is that he's not real good in pass coverage, and that's why they have him play with his hand down most of the time. And he was a stud DE in college. He's got the size, explosion, and the moves we look for in a DE. If we signed him, I'd cut Ogunleye (save about 4.8 million), shift Brown to RDE, and have Suggs play LDE. Also, with Suggs, if we did ever change coaching staffs and schemes, Suggs could play OLB/pass rushing DE in a 3-4 or a SAM in a 4-3. Makes perfect sense to me. Also, he's the youngest and will be 26, going on to 27, at the start of next season.

 

 

That's beautiful.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

Call me nuts, but I'm not really high on these 3 guys, and for reasons that you mentioned. Haynesworth has always been called lazy (just what we need, another one of those), Peppers had a bad year last year but a good one this year (playing for huge money?), and Suggs has never been a pure DE in the NFL (so his numbers in the end might not reflect the money we paid him).

 

I don't know. I'd like to see us possibly try to trade for one like we did Wale. I have 2 guys in mind- Aaron Schobel (Buffalo) or Patrick Kerney (Seattle). Both guys were hurt a ton last year, and both are in their early 30's in terms of age.

 

Schobel played in every game in 2007 but he only had about 7 sacks.

 

Kerney, on the other hand, played in every game in 2007 and he had 15 sacks, similar to Peppers but the other way around. However, Kerney just got a $40 million deal in 2007, so I'm not sure we'd be willing to pick that up. Yet, he's 32 so maybe Seattle could be trying to rebuild?

[nfoligno]

I agree with you on Haynesworth, and I'd be shocked if Tennessee didn't resign him. As for Peppers, there's no way the Panthers aren't keeping him. They are going to do everything in their power to retain him. If they lose him, there goes their D, IMO.

 

I think Haynseworth is gone. I think he will have too much interest around the league to re-sign w/ Tenn. Here is Texas, the talk is Houston intends to make a MAJOR run at fat albert.

 

As for Peppers, I am sure they want to keep him, but they also have their premier LT hitting FA. Keeping one will be difficult, but both near impossible. Peppers may not make it to FA, but I think there is a pretty decent chance he does.

 

Suggs makes perfect sense for us though. He'll get paid a lot, but not as much as Peppers or Haynesworth, and he fits what we are looking for in a DE. Right now he's no. 2 on Baltimore's to do list as they need to bring back Ray Lewis. The biggest knock against Suggs in Baltimore is that he's not real good in pass coverage, and that's why they have him play with his hand down most of the time. And he was a stud DE in college. He's got the size, explosion, and the moves we look for in a DE. If we signed him, I'd cut Ogunleye (save about 4.8 million), shift Brown to RDE, and have Suggs play LDE. Also, with Suggs, if we did ever change coaching staffs and schemes, Suggs could play OLB/pass rushing DE in a 3-4 or a SAM in a 4-3. Makes perfect sense to me. Also, he's the youngest and will be 26, going on to 27, at the start of next season.

 

One. You mention "shifting" Brown to RDE, but that is where he plays now. If Suggs could play LDE, he would simply replace Wale.

 

Two. I am still not 100% on Suggs. I don't care about pass coverage, but I do question whether he could be a dominant everydown DE. I just think teams that play the 3-4 will be going after him the hardest, and feel his value there is simply better than in a 4-3. I wonder (I really don't know) how well he would play the run as an everydown DE. We can say we want him for his pass rush, but if we get gashed on the run, we will not be in nearly as many pass rush opportunities to take advantage. Further, if he is not great against the run, teams will attack him and could wear him down sooner, thus taking away some of his explosive ability.

[nfoligno]

Call me nuts, but I'm not really high on these 3 guys, and for reasons that you mentioned. Haynesworth has always been called lazy (just what we need, another one of those), Peppers had a bad year last year but a good one this year (playing for huge money?), and Suggs has never been a pure DE in the NFL (so his numbers in the end might not reflect the money we paid him).

 

For the record, I am not sure you can categorize Peppers that way. He did have a bad, very bad, 2007, but it isn't like he came out of no where this year. He was one of the best DEs in the league. He had one bad season, which I think he was playing through injury, and got back to form this past year. When you see a player have a career year in a contract year, that is one thing, but in Peppers, he simply got back to the play expected in his contract year. He simply had one bad season. So I just do not think he can be categorized as a contract year player.

 

I don't know. I'd like to see us possibly try to trade for one like we did Wale. I have 2 guys in mind- Aaron Schobel (Buffalo) or Patrick Kerney (Seattle). Both guys were hurt a ton last year, and both are in their early 30's in terms of age.

 

Schobel played in every game in 2007 but he only had about 7 sacks.

 

Kerney, on the other hand, played in every game in 2007 and he had 15 sacks, similar to Peppers but the other way around. However, Kerney just got a $40 million deal in 2007, so I'm not sure we'd be willing to pick that up. Yet, he's 32 so maybe Seattle could be trying to rebuild?

 

Have you read anything to suggest either Schobel or Kerney are on the block. Its one thing to mention a player, or two, you like, but if there is nothing to suggest their teams are looking to move them, what's the point. Also, I am not sure Wale has ANY trade value. He is at a point in his contract where his base salary is going to be high, thus any team trading for him would also have to give him a new deal, w/ new money. Further, he is coming off a bad season, and thus, I am not sure his value would be high, contract or no.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

Have you read anything to suggest either Schobel or Kerney are on the block. Its one thing to mention a player, or two, you like, but if there is nothing to suggest their teams are looking to move them, what's the point. Also, I am not sure Wale has ANY trade value. He is at a point in his contract where his base salary is going to be high, thus any team trading for him would also have to give him a new deal, w/ new money. Further, he is coming off a bad season, and thus, I am not sure his value would be high, contract or no.

No, but both are old, making significant money, and they're on medicore or bad teams. Something tells me these 2 teams would atleast answer a call about the 2 guys.

[clnr]

I can see Carolina keep both Peppers and Gross if they cut Delhomme. He has a cap number of $ 11 millions for 2009. http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/11/...-his-departure/

I'd say he's on the hot seat!

[ChileBear]

Again, and before Jason goes nuts, I want OL and WR. But reading Lovie's comments lead to the impression we might be looking to add to our DL first, and such this post.

Read the article and I agree that it could mean we will add a big gun on D, and, if so, the DL would be the most likely spot. And peppers would be my first choice.

But I think we've already got big $ tied up on the D side, so I'd look for JA to spend more on the O side--OL and WR are on my wish list, as almost all of us here agree.

[nfoligno]

Yea, they can free up $6.5m or whatever, but do you know where the stand overall in cap space?

 

Either way, that is two huge signings, and I am simply not so sure they can keep both.

 

I can see Carolina keep both Peppers and Gross if they cut Delhomme. He has a cap number of $ 11 millions for 2009. http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/11/...-his-departure/

I'd say he's on the hot seat!

[bowlingtwig]

Read the article and I agree that it could mean we will add a big gun on D, and, if so, the DL would be the most likely spot. And peppers would be my first choice.

But I think we've already got big $ tied up on the D side, so I'd look for JA to spend more on the O side--OL and WR are on my wish list, as almost all of us here agree.

 

 

As much as I want to agree about the O side of ball I tend to lean towards defense myself. It kills me to say it because of how bad our WR corps is and our oline is not getting any younger and I would say that they outperformed in 2008. But the reason I am leaning towards the D is because of how bad they played for most of the year. How many games last year would we have won if the D was at least average? I know that we would have won the division easily though. If I had the choice I would want Peppers. I have had my eye on him since he played at North Carolina. 07 was indeed a very bad year for him, however look at his other years. He is clearly one of the better DL guys in the business. Forget about FAT ALBERT I don't even want to look him.

[bradjock]

There's no way in hell we're going after a top-tier defensive lineman in free agency . . . for multiple reasons.

 

First off, at the DL, who the hell do you replace? Dvoracek's been a dissappointment, but he's looked like a monster at times. Marcus Harrison has also looked pretty damn good and both of these guys are cheap. Even Tommie's contract for a pro-bowl DT is pretty damn reasonable. Marrinelli is supposed to help help them improve. It would be irresponsible to get rid of any of them at this point. Not to mention, Anthony Adams and Israel Idonije have been our most consistent D-linemen, and I don't see them going anywhere either.

 

That brings us to DE. I agree that Suggs is not an ideal fit for our scheme. But if we paid to get Peppers, we'd likely have to make him the highest paid player on the roster. How can you justify doing that with a defensive budget that is already bloated and underperforming?

 

If Lovie's excited I think it's because:

a) There's a free agent DE flying under the radar we like that will be fairly inexpensive, similar to when we signed Anthony Adams . . . which I can't imagine Lovie would be getting excited about that.

There a few defense ends projected to go in the first round we really like. To me this makes more sense. While Wale's expensive, it'll be tough to find a replacement that's better without paying through the nose. Alex Brown is a solid NFL starter, but he'll never be the elite pass-rusher we crave. And Mark Anderson is a nice 3rd-down pass-rusher . . . no more, no less.

 

So to me it makes the most sense to draft a DE. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we went DE #1 and #2 the way we went DT with Tank & Tommie. JA LOVES drafting d-linemen and I could easily see him resigning St. Clair and sticking with the guys we already have on the 0-line. Not to mention he always believes he can find a WR later, the way he did with Berrian.

[nfoligno]

No question our money is currently tied up on the D, but I would make the following arguments:

 

One. While the O seemed to improve, the D has been in a steady decline. While I personally believe that is far more due to coaching than talent, I think (based on Angelo and Lovie's comment) that our GM and HC believe we have talent issues too.

 

Two. Pass rush. Pass rush. Pass rush. How often have you heard Angelo and Lovie talk about that? We run a defense which simply fails if you do not generate a pass rush w/ your front four, and yet we have no. If we do not see a big improvement in our pass rush, can we expect our defense as a whole to be any better? If the D doesn't improve, should we expect more wins? I think our GM and HC believe the success of the team depends on improving our pass rush.

 

Three. History. Where has our staff proven they are willing to spend? QB? Nope. WR? Nope. RB/TE? Not needs. OL? We spent on Kreutz, but I would argue we often spend on in-house extensions. We also spent big on Tait, but that was how long ago? On the other hand, I think Angelo has more than proven he is quite happy to spend on defense, and in his mind, there is no position greater than the OL.

 

Four. While I think we need to make numerous changes to the OL, I also believe Angelo believes the addition of Williams is the equivalent to a big ticket addition. Angelo believe adding Williams is similar to our signing a big name FA. Further, I think Angelo feels our OL wasn't that bad, and the addition of Williams will essentially make the OL good. On the other hand, I think Angelo believes our DL bombed last year, and that we simply lack the horses to get it done.

 

Five. Final argument. Lovie is taking over the D playcalling. Angelo's BFF Marinelli is taking over the DL. I don't think Angelo wants Lovie to fail, and as such, is going to try and see to it Lovie has everything he needs to be successful. If our D tanks again this year, it will likely spell the end for Lovie, as he will be out of excuses. I don't think Angelo wants that, and thus will try to re-build the D.

 

Read the article and I agree that it could mean we will add a big gun on D, and, if so, the DL would be the most likely spot. And peppers would be my first choice.

But I think we've already got big $ tied up on the D side, so I'd look for JA to spend more on the O side--OL and WR are on my wish list, as almost all of us here agree.

[bowlingtwig]

There's no way in hell we're going after a top-tier defensive lineman in free agency . . . for multiple reasons.

 

First off, at the DL, who the hell do you replace? Dvoracek's been a dissappointment, but he's looked like a monster at times. Marcus Harrison has also looked pretty damn good and both of these guys are cheap. Even Tommie's contract for a pro-bowl DT is pretty damn reasonable. Marrinelli is supposed to help help them improve. It would be irresponsible to get rid of any of them at this point. Not to mention, Anthony Adams and Israel Idonije have been our most consistent D-linemen, and I don't see them going anywhere either.

 

That brings us to DE. I agree that Suggs is not an ideal fit for our scheme. But if we paid to get Peppers, we'd likely have to make him the highest paid player on the roster. How can you justify doing that with a defensive budget that is already bloated and underperforming?

 

If Lovie's excited I think it's because:

a) There's a free agent DE flying under the radar we like that will be fairly inexpensive, similar to when we signed Anthony Adams . . . which I can't imagine Lovie would be getting excited about that.

There a few defense ends projected to go in the first round we really like. To me this makes more sense. While Wale's expensive, it'll be tough to find a replacement that's better without paying through the nose. Alex Brown is a solid NFL starter, but he'll never be the elite pass-rusher we crave. And Mark Anderson is a nice 3rd-down pass-rusher . . . no more, no less.

 

So to me it makes the most sense to draft a DE. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we went DE #1 and #2 the way we went DT with Tank & Tommie. JA LOVES drafting d-linemen and I could easily see him resigning St. Clair and sticking with the guys we already have on the 0-line. Not to mention he always believes he can find a WR later, the way he did with Berrian.

 

I simply would feel sorry for JA if he ignored Oline and WR because us FANS would eat him alive.

[nfoligno]

As much as I want to agree about the O side of ball I tend to lean towards defense myself. It kills me to say it because of how bad our WR corps is and our oline is not getting any younger and I would say that they outperformed in 2008. But the reason I am leaning towards the D is because of how bad they played for most of the year. How many games last year would we have won if the D was at least average? I know that we would have won the division easily though. If I had the choice I would want Peppers. I have had my eye on him since he played at North Carolina. 07 was indeed a very bad year for him, however look at his other years. He is clearly one of the better DL guys in the business. Forget about FAT ALBERT I don't even want to look him.

 

I think Angelo feels the same way. A key reason I do not is because I believe coaching more than talent is why our defense has tanked over the last two years. To offer evidence of that point, I would point out that we have made dramatic coaching changes to the defense. If our D stunk due to a lack of talent, why fire/demote all our coaches. If our D issues was just about talent, why the need to demote Lovie's BFF, and why the need for Lovie to take over.

 

I believe we have talent still on D, and the DL. I think coaching more than talent prevented this D from being good/great. We were a top 5 D with nearly the same personnel. While I can understand a player or two going downhill, I find it hard to believe all of them tanked on their own, and at the same time. Thus, I believe w/ the coaching changes, we could see a big turnaround on D this year, even if we made no changes on the D.

 

Offense on the other hand, I think we over-achieved. I do not believe coaching killed our offense, but believe that we simply lack talent on O. We need dramatic changes to the OL and to the WR corp. This org wants to see better results from Orton, and gain a better evaluation of him, but if we do not give him a legit starting caliber WR, nor upgrade the OL, how can we really expect such?

 

I understand the desire to get Peppers, and also see the benefit, but at the same time, feel that (a) our defense will be better due to coaching changes and ( believe it is on offense where we simply lack talent.

[BearSox]

There's no way in hell we're going after a top-tier defensive lineman in free agency . . . for multiple reasons.

 

First off, at the DL, who the hell do you replace? Dvoracek's been a dissappointment, but he's looked like a monster at times. Marcus Harrison has also looked pretty damn good and both of these guys are cheap. Even Tommie's contract for a pro-bowl DT is pretty damn reasonable. Marrinelli is supposed to help help them improve. It would be irresponsible to get rid of any of them at this point. Not to mention, Anthony Adams and Israel Idonije have been our most consistent D-linemen, and I don't see them going anywhere either.

Dvoracek blows and will likely be cut cause he can't even stay healthy. Adams is decent, but we need an actual NT, as a NT would improve the defense as a whole, especially Urlacher. Idonije is nothing more then a situational player on passing downs, and Harrison is viewed more as an UT. NT is a BIG need for us.

 

That brings us to DE. I agree that Suggs is not an ideal fit for our scheme. But if we paid to get Peppers, we'd likely have to make him the highest paid player on the roster. How can you justify doing that with a defensive budget that is already bloated and underperforming?

Suggs is a perfect fit for what we look for in a DE. Don't fool yourself into thinking he's not because he plays 3-4 OLB, which is essentially a 4-3 DE who can get to a QB, and the pretty much what the Cover 2 needs at DE.

 

If Lovie's excited I think it's because:

a) There's a free agent DE flying under the radar we like that will be fairly inexpensive, similar to when we signed Anthony Adams . . . which I can't imagine Lovie would be getting excited about that.

There a few defense ends projected to go in the first round we really like. To me this makes more sense. While Wale's expensive, it'll be tough to find a replacement that's better without paying through the nose. Alex Brown is a solid NFL starter, but he'll never be the elite pass-rusher we crave. And Mark Anderson is a nice 3rd-down pass-rusher . . . no more, no less.

How is Mark Anderson a nice 3rd down pass rusher? Was it his ability to get stiffled at the line and get only one sack on the season, and that sack being a blown assisgnment by the OLine? I still have some hope in Anderson with a real Dline coach now, but I'm not holding my breathe. And he's not talking about the draft. We have the 18th pick, meaning someone we like right now could be a top 10 pick within a few months. You'll hear him talk about the draft after the combine.

[clnr]

Yea, they can free up $6.5m or whatever, but do you know where the stand overall in cap space?

 

Either way, that is two huge signings, and I am simply not so sure they can keep both.

 

They are around $ 10 millions under the cap as today. I'm no cap wizz so I'm not sure if both can be fitted under the cap with new contracts. Guess it depends on how set the rest of the team is. My guess is that you're right and they won't keep both Gross and Peppers. But stranger things has happened in this league...

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/01/10/saturdays-...shape-for-2009/

[nfoligno]

I understand your points, but also believe DE (in Angelo's mind) makes a lot of sense.

 

You ask who we would replace, but I think Angelo (w/o calling out his name) pointed already to Wale. I wish I had the numbers, but I think that if we were to cut Wale, we would save money as he is late in his contract. Thus most of the SB (some of which I think was a roster bonus early on) will have been mostly paid, while his base salary is most likely higher. At least, that is how most contracts are written.

 

So I think Angelo could be looking at replacing Wale, and in Peppers, he would be replacing Wale w/ one of the league's premier DEs.

 

If we are talking about Lovie being excited in personnel changes, that just doesn't sound to me like either (a) under the radar FA, nor ( a rookie. I doubt we are flat out going to take a DE in the 1st. Not saying it can't happen, but I don't think we will be looking to simply draft the best DE available, and thus, there is no certainty we will be drafting a DE. W/o such, why would Lovie be excited.

 

I disagree w/ the move, but I think (a) it would easily explain why Lovie would be excited about personnel changes and ( be very much in line w/ Angelo's history.

 

There's no way in hell we're going after a top-tier defensive lineman in free agency . . . for multiple reasons.

 

First off, at the DL, who the hell do you replace? Dvoracek's been a dissappointment, but he's looked like a monster at times. Marcus Harrison has also looked pretty damn good and both of these guys are cheap. Even Tommie's contract for a pro-bowl DT is pretty damn reasonable. Marrinelli is supposed to help help them improve. It would be irresponsible to get rid of any of them at this point. Not to mention, Anthony Adams and Israel Idonije have been our most consistent D-linemen, and I don't see them going anywhere either.

 

That brings us to DE. I agree that Suggs is not an ideal fit for our scheme. But if we paid to get Peppers, we'd likely have to make him the highest paid player on the roster. How can you justify doing that with a defensive budget that is already bloated and underperforming?

 

If Lovie's excited I think it's because:

a) There's a free agent DE flying under the radar we like that will be fairly inexpensive, similar to when we signed Anthony Adams . . . which I can't imagine Lovie would be getting excited about that.

There a few defense ends projected to go in the first round we really like. To me this makes more sense. While Wale's expensive, it'll be tough to find a replacement that's better without paying through the nose. Alex Brown is a solid NFL starter, but he'll never be the elite pass-rusher we crave. And Mark Anderson is a nice 3rd-down pass-rusher . . . no more, no less.

 

So to me it makes the most sense to draft a DE. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we went DE #1 and #2 the way we went DT with Tank & Tommie. JA LOVES drafting d-linemen and I could easily see him resigning St. Clair and sticking with the guys we already have on the 0-line. Not to mention he always believes he can find a WR later, the way he did with Berrian.

[BearSox]

nfo, if we cut Wale, we'd save 4.8 million. Well worth it, especially if we can bring in a DE like Suggs or Peppers via. free agency.

[bradjock]

I simply would feel sorry for JA if he ignored Oline and WR because us FANS would eat him alive.

 

Not true. When have we ever done that in the past? Bear fans have come to expect bad offense & great defense. When was the last time our offense cracked the top-ten? Yes, there's the annual bitching about Ron Turner, but it's been more disheartening IMO for Bear fans to see their defense suck for two consecutive years. Only Baltimore spends more money on the defensive side of the ball then we do.

 

Personally, I would be surprised if we didn't see the starting o-line of Williams, St. Clair/Beekman, Kretz, Garza, and Tait again next year. While we need to upgrade o-line, I could easily see us continuing with the status quo.

 

While the WR position is more urgent, what makes you think we won't continue to scrape the bottom of the barrel bringing in guys like Booker & Lloyd? JA doesn't seem that concerned about the WR position, and it more likely we'll continue to let Hester develop and focus on our TE's.

[bowlingtwig]

I think Angelo feels the same way. A key reason I do not is because I believe coaching more than talent is why our defense has tanked over the last two years. To offer evidence of that point, I would point out that we have made dramatic coaching changes to the defense. If our D stunk due to a lack of talent, why fire/demote all our coaches. If our D issues was just about talent, why the need to demote Lovie's BFF, and why the need for Lovie to take over.

 

I believe we have talent still on D, and the DL. I think coaching more than talent prevented this D from being good/great. We were a top 5 D with nearly the same personnel. While I can understand a player or two going downhill, I find it hard to believe all of them tanked on their own, and at the same time. Thus, I believe w/ the coaching changes, we could see a big turnaround on D this year, even if we made no changes on the D.

 

Offense on the other hand, I think we over-achieved. I do not believe coaching killed our offense, but believe that we simply lack talent on O. We need dramatic changes to the OL and to the WR corp. This org wants to see better results from Orton, and gain a better evaluation of him, but if we do not give him a legit starting caliber WR, nor upgrade the OL, how can we really expect such?

 

I understand the desire to get Peppers, and also see the benefit, but at the same time, feel that (a) our defense will be better due to coaching changes and ( believe it is on offense where we simply lack talent.

 

 

Great post, I can't argue the points at all.

[BearSox]

They are around $ 10 millions under the cap as today. I'm no cap wizz so I'm not sure if both can be fitted under the cap with new contracts. Guess it depends on how set the rest of the team is. My guess is that you're right and they won't keep both Gross and Peppers. But stranger things has happened in this league...

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/01/10/saturdays-...shape-for-2009/

They're not cutting Delhomme, or else Fox is going to lose all credibility he has a coach (he promised Delhomme he'd be the starter next year). They should (they'd save about 7 million), but they won't. They will cut Ken Lucas, but he'd only save them a couple million, if that. And they aren't gonna be able to afford both Gross and Peppers. Peppers is severely more important to them and he will be resigned. They will let Gross go and likely replace him with someone like Troy Kropog or Jamon Meredith with their 2nd round pick.

[bradjock]

I understand your points, but also believe DE (in Angelo's mind) makes a lot of sense.

 

You ask who we would replace, but I think Angelo (w/o calling out his name) pointed already to Wale. I wish I had the numbers, but I think that if we were to cut Wale, we would save money as he is late in his contract. Thus most of the SB (some of which I think was a roster bonus early on) will have been mostly paid, while his base salary is most likely higher. At least, that is how most contracts are written.

 

So I think Angelo could be looking at replacing Wale, and in Peppers, he would be replacing Wale w/ one of the league's premier DEs.

 

If we are talking about Lovie being excited in personnel changes, that just doesn't sound to me like either (a) under the radar FA, nor ( a rookie. I doubt we are flat out going to take a DE in the 1st. Not saying it can't happen, but I don't think we will be looking to simply draft the best DE available, and thus, there is no certainty we will be drafting a DE. W/o such, why would Lovie be excited.

 

I disagree w/ the move, but I think (a) it would easily explain why Lovie would be excited about personnel changes and ( be very much in line w/ Angelo's history.

 

Lately JA seems to be very concerned about the chemistry of the team, rewarding your own players, and not pissing off the guys already on the roster. Tommie Harris signed a very reasonable deal. Despite the fact he wasn't very good this year, won't he be pissed when we pay a d-lineman a ton more then him? According to Wikepedia, Minny paid Jared Allen 6 years, 72.3 million. This is after trading a ton to get him. Won't Peppers cost AT LEAST that much? This is after Tommie signed a 4 year 40 million extension. Wale's deal was 6 years, 33.4 million (although I have no idea how that breaks down other then the 15 million signing bonus).

 

I would be flabbergasted if we shelled out that much for a position we've already spent a ton of money and draft picks on fixing. To me that would be similar to Dallas trading for Roy Williams. Throwing money at a position doesn't necessarily fix the problem. I'm hoping Loving is simply excited about fixing the problem.

 

Either way, with Wale & Brown getting up their in age, and Mark Anderson stuck in the mud, I fully expect us to draft a DE very early.

[nfoligno]

Agree they will not cut Delhomme.

 

Agree they will target Peppers over Gross.

 

Where I would disagree is the idea they will be able to keep him though. As already discussed, they do not have a ton of cap space. Take our division, for example. We are looking to have in the $20-25m range, assuming no one is cut. Minny, GB and Det are all in similar situations. Heck, can't recall who it was, but I read there is a team who will have around $40m in cap space. Point is, while $10m may have once looked like a nice amount, today it is closer to chump change.

 

They may want to re-sign Peppers, but unless he is tagged, I think he will enter FA and check out what other teams are going to offer him, and if he gets to that point, I do not see Carolina being able to re-sign him.

 

They could tag him I guess, but that would mean using up ALL their cap space to do so. They would have to cut players just to sign their rookie class, and that doesn't even factor their inability to sign other FAs to fill holes. Frankly, I think they are going to lose both Peppers and Gross, as they simply do not have the cap space to compete w/ teams that have 2, 3 and even 4 times as much space to work w/.

 

They're not cutting Delhomme, or else Fox is going to lose all credibility he has a coach (he promised Delhomme he'd be the starter next year). They should (they'd save about 7 million), but they won't. They will cut Ken Lucas, but he'd only save them a couple million, if that. And they aren't gonna be able to afford both Gross and Peppers. Peppers is severely more important to them and he will be resigned. They will let Gross go and likely replace him with someone like Troy Kropog or Jamon Meredith with their 2nd round pick.

[nfoligno]

Personally, I would be surprised if we didn't see the starting o-line of Williams, St. Clair/Beekman, Kretz, Garza, and Tait again next year. While we need to upgrade o-line, I could easily see us continuing with the status quo.

 

No argument, except to say that I think Angelo would argue adding Williams is equal to adding a big name, and thus not the status quo. You and I know better, but what I think Angelo's line of thought would be.

 

While the WR position is more urgent, what makes you think we won't continue to scrape the bottom of the barrel bringing in guys like Booker & Lloyd? JA doesn't seem that concerned about the WR position, and it more likely we'll continue to let Hester develop and focus on our TE's.

 

I am just not sure here. He did a few years back spend big to bring in Moose. It didn't work, but it did show that he is willing to spend on a WR when necessary. Problem is, this is a VERY weak FA class of WRs. After TJ, there is a huge dropoff. I think Bryant will get a lot of interest and money, but is not worth it. Other than that, it is a bunch of mediocre WRs.

 

I can however see him spending a 1st round pick on a WR.

 

I totally disagree w/ this plan, but simply believe it is one Angelo very well could be leaning toward.

[BearSox]

Where I would disagree is the idea they will be able to keep him though. As already discussed, they do not have a ton of cap space. Take our division, for example. We are looking to have in the $20-25m range, assuming no one is cut. Minny, GB and Det are all in similar situations. Heck, can't recall who it was, but I read there is a team who will have around $40m in cap space. Point is, while $10m may have once looked like a nice amount, today it is closer to chump change.

 

They may want to re-sign Peppers, but unless he is tagged, I think he will enter FA and check out what other teams are going to offer him, and if he gets to that point, I do not see Carolina being able to re-sign him.

 

They could tag him I guess, but that would mean using up ALL their cap space to do so. They would have to cut players just to sign their rookie class, and that doesn't even factor their inability to sign other FAs to fill holes. Frankly, I think they are going to lose both Peppers and Gross, as they simply do not have the cap space to compete w/ teams that have 2, 3 and even 4 times as much space to work w/.

I guarantee you there is no way the Panthers let Peppers get away from them. Without him, there basically goes their defense, as besides for Gamble and Beason, they don't have much on D, and Peppers has been their biggest play maker. After cutting the dead wood and such, they'll likely have 15 million in cap this year. Peppers and Gross are there only major free agents, and they'd likely want to keep Kasay as well, but he'd be cheap, 40 year old kickers aren't that expansive. Also, they don't have a first round pick this year because they traded it to the Eagles last year, so they won't have to give a big huge contract to a rookie. They will likely resign him, but if they can't, they have enough money to tag him.