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With all the talk of moving Tillman to FS


jason

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Watching NFL Live tonight...saw that quite a list has developed on the FA market.

 

Chris McAlister

Dre Bly

Sam Madison

Leigh Bodden

Drayton Florence

Adam 'Pacman' Jones

 

I wouldn't mind seeing one of the first three on the Bears, for the right price.

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Watching NFL Live tonight...saw that quite a list has developed on the FA market.

 

Chris McAlister

Dre Bly

Sam Madison

Leigh Bodden

Drayton Florence

Adam 'Pacman' Jones

 

I wouldn't mind seeing one of the first three on the Bears, for the right price.

 

 

I would pass on all but McAllister for the right price. Look for the Bears to wait and see what is avaiable in the draft. I would even consider signing a S like Landry from the Ravens to come and start. Don't get me wrong I think Tillman would be great at FS and will probably happen sooner than later. Tillman has always paly CB really physical like a S and think it is in his blood!

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I like McAlister and Florence for the right price... Bly and Madison I think are too far past their prime...

 

PacMan needs to be sent packin' to a different league altogether...

 

Watching NFL Live tonight...saw that quite a list has developed on the FA market.

 

Chris McAlister

Dre Bly

Sam Madison

Leigh Bodden

Drayton Florence

Adam 'Pacman' Jones

 

I wouldn't mind seeing one of the first three on the Bears, for the right price.

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Maybe. The one thing I do know is that it's one helluva a lot easier for the Bears to find a cornerback then it is a free safety. There's already a lot of cb's on the market, and seemingly the only safety of real value who's available is Atogwe.

 

A better question to ask is if we think Peanut can be a very good safety (and everything seems to indicate that he would be) why wouldn't we move him?

 

Watching NFL Live tonight...saw that quite a list has developed on the FA market.

 

Chris McAlister

Dre Bly

Sam Madison

Leigh Bodden

Drayton Florence

Adam 'Pacman' Jones

 

I wouldn't mind seeing one of the first three on the Bears, for the right price.

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If we signed Pacman, I would never watch another Bears game until he was gone. He's a criminal thug who after 18 thousand arrests and run ins with the law still has not learned his lesson.

 

If the Bears signed Dunta Robinson for something like $5-6 per over 5-6 years, then traded Vasher to the Texans for a 4th, I'd love that.

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A better question to ask is if we think Peanut can be a very good safety (and everything seems to indicate that he would be) why wouldn't we move him?

 

Because the value of a CB is significantly greater than the value of a S. Just watch FA this year and look at the contracts the CBs will sign, compared to the Safeties. Very average CBs seem to get sizable deals. I remember when Brian Williams, a nice but not that good, CB signed w/ Jax for $30+m and better than $10m SB.

 

You often see CBs move to FS, but RARELY do you see this done w/ a CB that is considered a very good CB. A college CB that doesn't have what it takes to play CB in the NFL may move to FS. Or a CB who is well past his prime, and can no longer get it done at corner might move to FS. But what CBs can you think of who moved to FS when they were still considered strong corners. None I can think of.

 

The one thing I do know is that it's one helluva a lot easier for the Bears to find a cornerback then it is a free safety.

 

I would ask, how much have we tried to find a FS? The only player I can think of who Angelo drafted to play FS is DM, which obviously didn't work out, but in 7 years, that is the only time I can recall Angelo drafting a player who ANYONE considered a FS. He drafted other safeties, but everyone of them were in the box safeties, and thus I would argue SS. Bobby Gray, Todd Johnson, Chris Harris, Payne, Steltz. Everyone of these players were projected as SS'. So is the problem we can not find a FS, or we have not spent the picks/time trying. IMHO, the greatest problem is with the idea that our safety positions are inter-changable, which is BS.

 

There's already a lot of cb's on the market, and seemingly the only safety of real value who's available is Atogwe

 

Not totally sure I agree w/ this either. There may be a lot of CBs on the market, but how many of them are really any good. The market just got a boost of CBs due to cuts, but are they really any good? There are some players out there like the kid from Oakland, or Houston, but both are expected to be tagged (we'll find out soon enough on them). There are a lot of names on the market at CB, but most are on the market because they didn't play well. How many CBs are on the market who are as good as Tillman?

 

My final point is this. Many believe Tillman can play FS, and maybe he can, but I think there would have to be an expected learning curve. That would be fine if we had more stability in the rest of our secondary, but think about how our secondary would look. On one side, we would have a still young and developing Graham. On the other side, either Vasher (who has been struggling) or a new face. At FS, you would have Tillman, but Payne or Steltz at SS, neither of which have been very impressive. So the point is, you would be sacrificing any level of continuity, and I think the secondary as a whole would suffer for it. I think we are in a much better position if we keep Tillman and Graham as our starters, and simply look to upgrade the FS position, whether that be in FA or the draft. To me, the key is for us to actually look to add a FS, and not a SS to play FS.

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I hear ya...

 

On both counts.

 

If we signed Pacman, I would never watch another Bears game until he was gone. He's a criminal thug who after 18 thousand arrests and run ins with the law still has not learned his lesson.

 

If the Bears signed Dunta Robinson for something like $5-6 per over 5-6 years, then traded Vasher to the Texans for a 4th, I'd love that.

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Dunta just got tagged....

 

 

TEXANS TAG DUNTA

Posted by Mike Florio on February 19, 2009, 11:54 a.m.

The Houston Texans have joined the game of tag, becoming the eleventh team to use the franchise designation on one of their impending free agents.

 

According to John McClain of the Houston Chronicle and Adam Schefter of NFL Network, the Texans have applied the tag to cornerback Dunta Robinson.

 

The move makes Robinson eligible for a one-year contract, with a salary of $9.957 million. If he accepts the tender, the salary is fully guaranteed.

 

Not bad for a guy who’s knee exploded 15 months ago.

 

The number represents the average of the five highest 2008 cap numbers at the position. It comes from the following quintet of corners: Champ Bailey, $12.19 million; Chris McAlister, $10.9 million; Nnamdi Asomugha, $9.765 million; Asante Samuel, $8.645 million; Patrick Surtain, $8.28 million.

 

 

 

 

If we signed Pacman, I would never watch another Bears game until he was gone. He's a criminal thug who after 18 thousand arrests and run ins with the law still has not learned his lesson.

 

If the Bears signed Dunta Robinson for something like $5-6 per over 5-6 years, then traded Vasher to the Texans for a 4th, I'd love that.

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If we signed Pacman, I would never watch another Bears game until he was gone. He's a criminal thug who after 18 thousand arrests and run ins with the law still has not learned his lesson.

 

The Bears sign a player that they think will help the team; but you don't like him. So, you stop watching/supporting? Wow! I'm not a PacMan fan either and would HATE the pick-up. But, to say that you won't watch the team because of it is wild. Thin loyalty.

 

Personally, I'm a BEARS fan. Players come and go. Ditto for coaches. As much as I like Mike Brown, I'm not going to abandon the team because they dropped him. I cannot imagine a Sunday afternoon in October, it's 1pm and the Bears are on. But, I'm not watching because I don't like the new #24?? Gimme a break.

 

Just asking, who would you follow if we did pick up PacMan? Packers? Cowboys? Would you jump on the Steelers wagon?

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As much as I hate Pacman, I would not boycott the team, but I have said before that if we signed Vick, I would.

 

No, it doesn't mean I would become a fan of GB, Minny, Dallas or anyone else. But I would not watch the bears, nor raise my children to support a team that supports an individual like Michael Vick. My personal feelings.

 

The Bears sign a player that they think will help the team; but you don't like him. So, you stop watching/supporting? Wow! I'm not a PacMan fan either and would HATE the pick-up. But, to say that you won't watch the team because of it is wild. Thin loyalty.

 

Personally, I'm a BEARS fan. Players come and go. Ditto for coaches. As much as I like Mike Brown, I'm not going to abandon the team because they dropped him. I cannot imagine a Sunday afternoon in October, it's 1pm and the Bears are on. But, I'm not watching because I don't like the new #24?? Gimme a break.

 

Just asking, who would you follow if we did pick up PacMan? Packers? Cowboys? Would you jump on the Steelers wagon?

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As much as I hate Pacman, I would not boycott the team, but I have said before that if we signed Vick, I would.

 

No, it doesn't mean I would become a fan of GB, Minny, Dallas or anyone else. But I would not watch the bears, nor raise my children to support a team that supports an individual like Michael Vick. My personal feelings.

 

Okay. Understood. Just for kicks. Does this stance of yours apply to all criminals in society or just football?

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To be honest, I am not sure I would even call it a stance so much, as w/ Vick I see a "special situation". I have seen plenty of Bears in trouble for numerous crimes, whether it be DWI, gun related or whatever, but I live in a very pro-animal house, and to support Vick, or an organization that supports him, but go against too much of what my house believes.

 

To answer your question, if Vick were to play baseball, and the Sox signed him, I guess I would not be watching Sox games for a while either.

 

Again, I can easily shoot holes in my own argument for hypocracy. It wouldn't be hard. But in terms of Vick, that is simply how I feel. It makes me sick, but I am sure there will be a team that gives him a chance. I can only pray it will not be my team.

 

Okay. Understood. Just for kicks. Does this stance of yours apply to all criminals in society or just football?
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To be honest, I am not sure I would even call it a stance so much, as w/ Vick I see a "special situation". I have seen plenty of Bears in trouble for numerous crimes, whether it be DWI, gun related or whatever, but I live in a very pro-animal house, and to support Vick, or an organization that supports him, but go against too much of what my house believes.

 

To answer your question, if Vick were to play baseball, and the Sox signed him, I guess I would not be watching Sox games for a while either.

 

Again, I can easily shoot holes in my own argument for hypocracy. It wouldn't be hard. But in terms of Vick, that is simply how I feel. It makes me sick, but I am sure there will be a team that gives him a chance. I can only pray it will not be my team.

 

 

Okay. Fair enough. It seems to be a tough standard, especially if he would have paid his debt to society and is tring to get his life back together. However, folks have their issues, yours may be animal cruely. However, that's also a tough one to be consistent on. There are murderers that don't get as much vitriol leveled against them.

 

Personally, I don't want PacMan because I don't think that he can really help us win ball games. Mike Vick can surely help us win games.

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I think a lot needs to be seen from him before you can say that... He may have lost quite a bit while in prison. Additionally, he was struggling in ATL before the arrest...and there was talk of him getting benched as I had a few friends from the Atlanta area mention to me (Ie. Don't pick him in fantasy!). I think the potential is there...but I think buyer beware...

 

Mike Vick can surely help us win games.
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I think a lot needs to be seen from him before you can say that... He may have lost quite a bit while in prison. Additionally, he was struggling in ATL before the arrest...and there was talk of him getting benched as I had a few friends from the Atlanta area mention to me (Ie. Don't pick him in fantasy!). I think the potential is there...but I think buyer beware...

 

You may be correct. I'll revise my statement.

 

I don't think that he can/will help us at QB. However, he may be able to provide some playmaking skills at WR because of his speed/athleticism. But like you said, he may have lost a bit while in prison. Plus, there's no telling if he can actually catch.

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As much as I hate Pacman, I would not boycott the team, but I have said before that if we signed Vick, I would.

 

No, it doesn't mean I would become a fan of GB, Minny, Dallas or anyone else. But I would not watch the bears, nor raise my children to support a team that supports an individual like Michael Vick. My personal feelings.

 

For the record, do you feel that what Vick did to dogs - through other people - is worse than what Jones did to people - through other people? It seems to me that if a boycott is called for Vick, then it has to be called for Jones.

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Because the value of a CB is significantly greater than the value of a S. Just watch FA this year and look at the contracts the CBs will sign, compared to the Safeties. Very average CBs seem to get sizable deals. I remember when Brian Williams, a nice but not that good, CB signed w/ Jax for $30+m and better than $10m SB.

 

While cb's make more money, I'm not sure they hold the same value in the cover 2. I remember the year the Colts won the Super Bowl, they'd let both their safeties walk via free agency. They started two nobodies, and really didn't miss much.

 

Meanwhile Bob Sanders was one of the best defensive players in football. Now that Peanut has gotten paid, we need to play him where he'll help the most. Period.

 

You often see CBs move to FS, but RARELY do you see this done w/ a CB that is considered a very good CB. A college CB that doesn't have what it takes to play CB in the NFL may move to FS. Or a CB who is well past his prime, and can no longer get it done at corner might move to FS.

 

Isn't this partly because all the best defensive backs in college play cornerback?

 

I would ask, how much have we tried to find a FS? The only player I can think of who Angelo drafted to play FS is DM, which obviously didn't work out, but in 7 years, that is the only time I can recall Angelo drafting a player who ANYONE considered a FS. He drafted other safeties, but everyone of them were in the box safeties, and thus I would argue SS. Bobby Gray, Todd Johnson, Chris Harris, Payne, Steltz. Everyone of these players were projected as SS'. So is the problem we can not find a FS, or we have not spent the picks/time trying. IMHO, the greatest problem is with the idea that our safety positions are inter-changable, which is BS.

 

On the other side, how many top free safeties are there in college? My guess is that JA would have rather had a FS over Steltz or Payne, but none were worth a damn that weren't drafted in the first round. As for our safeties being interchangeable, I have to think that's what we'd like to do, but it's not realistic. Payne/Steltz are too slow, while Manning's not a great run-stopper.

 

Not totally sure I agree w/ this either. There may be a lot of CBs on the market, but how many of them are really any good. The market just got a boost of CBs due to cuts, but are they really any good? There are some players out there like the kid from Oakland, or Houston, but both are expected to be tagged (we'll find out soon enough on them). There are a lot of names on the market at CB, but most are on the market because they didn't play well. How many CBs are on the market who are as good as Tillman?

 

Maybe not as good as Tillman, but finding a credible safety in free agency at this point seems damn near impossible. More importantly, I feel like we could draft a cornerback in the 2nd or 3rd round, and he could be an effective starter fairly quickly. I can't say that about any safety.

 

My final point is this. Many believe Tillman can play FS, and maybe he can, but I think there would have to be an expected learning curve. That would be fine if we had more stability in the rest of our secondary, but think about how our secondary would look. On one side, we would have a still young and developing Graham. On the other side, either Vasher (who has been struggling) or a new face. At FS, you would have Tillman, but Payne or Steltz at SS, neither of which have been very impressive. So the point is, you would be sacrificing any level of continuity, and I think the secondary as a whole would suffer for it. I think we are in a much better position if we keep Tillman and Graham as our starters, and simply look to upgrade the FS position, whether that be in FA or the draft. To me, the key is for us to actually look to add a FS, and not a SS to play FS.

 

Yes there would be an expected learning curve, but once again, if he could solidify the position for us it'd be worth it. As for finding a FS, who do you want now that Atogwe is gone?

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Okay. Fair enough. It seems to be a tough standard, especially if he would have paid his debt to society and is tring to get his life back together. However, folks have their issues, yours may be animal cruely. However, that's also a tough one to be consistent on. There are murderers that don't get as much vitriol leveled against them.

 

Personally, I don't want PacMan because I don't think that he can really help us win ball games. Mike Vick can surely help us win games.

 

 

I would say that neither of these players would help us win the superbowl! Pac-man can't even help hims self stay out of trouble and Vick is not all that impressive body of work if you were to not look at his rushing ability.has I would rather have Caleb Hanie start than bring Vick to the team. I think these guys should be blackballed from the leaguea and think of the PR image and message it would send to fans. I am all for second chances but this is not one I would provide.

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You may be correct. I'll revise my statement.

 

I don't think that he can/will help us at QB. However, he may be able to provide some playmaking skills at WR because of his speed/athleticism. But like you said, he may have lost a bit while in prison. Plus, there's no telling if he can actually catch.

 

INHO things here about Vick are out of control. Yes he made a mistake but that can be overcome. He would bring much talent to our team if he stays out of trouble. This is just me....I think he will come out and be a beast, because he would have thee understanding this is his last chance, and he will try to prove all you guys wrong about him not being a QB. I would pass on Pacman....enough said. But line Vick up in the wildcat with Hester, Wolfe and Forte DAMN!!!!

 

Now to the second point what he did I'm not in favor of but is it so different than bullfighting, bull riding, oh and not to mention HUNTING SEASON with all the deer, Moose, Bear,duck,fish and anything else hunters shoot to hang on their walls for fun? Dog fighting, cock fighting, and over here the guys are catching scorpions anf putting the in matches with each other and camel spiders and I'm sure they do worse in other countries,So this is a problem not just with Vick but the world as a whole. So if Vick gives us a chance to pick up first downs with his running then so be it.

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One. What do you mean by, "through other people". As I recall, Vick was far more than some high level sponsor of the event. Vick himself was the one who (for example) body slammed a dog to kill it because it didn't win.

 

Two. Exactly what are you talking about w/ PacMan. I honestly do not know. I know he did a lot of bad/stupid stuff at strip clubs, fights and such, but you indicate something potentially far worse. Just curious what.

 

Getting away from PacMan, and trying to continue w/ the point I think you may be trying to make, how about Ray Caruth as an example. As I recall, he paid to have his pregnant girlfriend shot, and went to jail for it. If he got out of jail, I would not want him either.

 

I have avoided a couple posts on this subject, because I am not looking to make a huge political discussion out of it. I have said myself that I, myself, could easily spray holes into my own argument. For me, it is simply a personal matter. Maybe I got caught up into the whole thing. Whatever. But what Vick did disgusts me, and I frankly don't think he even today believes what he did was wrong. I believe he thinks he screwed up because he was caught, but I don't think he actually believes what he did was wrong. To me, he is a disgusting excuse for a human being, and one I want nothing to do w/. Just my opinion and how I feel.

 

For the record, do you feel that what Vick did to dogs - through other people - is worse than what Jones did to people - through other people? It seems to me that if a boycott is called for Vick, then it has to be called for Jones.
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Two comments.

 

One. I am not sure the Little example flies as much anymore. That happened some years ago, and prior to what seems like a newer feeling toward off-field problems. If Little ran into that problem today, I am not sure he would so easily find a home in the NFL.

 

Two. I am NOT excusing what he did, but as ignorant as it was to get behind the wheel, what he did was an accident. I realize his driving was no accident, and I know the law and his killing someone is legally considered more than an accident. But the violent crime itself was never intentional. I think we all know he did not get behind the wheel the the intention of harming someone. Vick's crimes were willful and intional.

 

I think you are wrong that his crimes will not sway a signle team. I think very few teams will look at signing him. Regardless how you or I feel, signing Vick is likely going to begin a firestorm of bad PR. Animal Rights Organizations can be very loud, and I think few owners want picket lines and the sort of negative PR these groups can bring. Some owners will say screw it, but I think that number will be the minority.

 

I don't want vick on the team because he's not an nfl quarterback & thats the only reason. The fact he was involved in dogfighting won't sway a single team, Leonard Little killed someone & had a career
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While cb's make more money, I'm not sure they hold the same value in the cover 2. I remember the year the Colts won the Super Bowl, they'd let both their safeties walk via free agency. They started two nobodies, and really didn't miss much.

 

Meanwhile Bob Sanders was one of the best defensive players in football. Now that Peanut has gotten paid, we need to play him where he'll help the most. Period.

 

I would agree the value of a cover two corner is less than the value of a corner in a more regular 4-3 which utilizes more man coverage. In fact, that is exactly the argument I have had of late in another thread. I also agree the value of a safety in the cover two is closer to the CB, where as in most 4-3 systems, I think the value of the CB is significantly greater. At the same time, I would still maintain the value of the CB is greater.

 

For one thing, I think we are talking market value more than simply value to the team. Whether we are talking about a cover two corner or a man coverage corner, I would still maintain the cost of a CB is greater than the cost of a safety.

 

For another thing, I go back to this. As we have said, you see a corner move to FS. How often do you see a FS move to CB? Not often. That is simply because safety is considered the lesser of the two positions in terms of skill. A CB that doesn't have the skill to play corner in the NFL moves to FS.

 

Isn't this partly because all the best defensive backs in college play cornerback?

 

First, what's your point. The point is still the same in that better athletes, whether NFL or college, play CB and not Safety. If safety were such an important position, I think we would see greater numbers at that position.

 

On the other side, how many top free safeties are there in college? My guess is that JA would have rather had a FS over Steltz or Payne, but none were worth a damn that weren't drafted in the first round. As for our safeties being interchangeable, I have to think that's what we'd like to do, but it's not realistic. Payne/Steltz are too slow, while Manning's not a great run-stopper.

 

One, I think there have been plenty of FS' available through the years, but I simply do not believe it is a position Angelo has EVER prioritized. Frankly, I feel the same way about SS. Think about when Angelo first got here. We had a very good SS in Parrish, but Angelo didn't want to pay him and let him walk. Okay, FA causes that to happen. But since Parrish, we have basically used nothing but late 2nd day picks to try and replace him. At FS, I see little difference, w/ DM being the only exception. You can not tell me there were never any FS prospects in any of the drafts, and that is why we waited until the late 2nd day of the draft. No, I think Safety is similar to OL in that it is simply an area Angelo has never prioritized.

 

Two, as far as our safety positions being interchangable, this is an old pet peeve of mine, and this is how I have always reasoned it. If you write down on a piece of paper what you want for each position (the ideal player) the FS and SS likely are interchangable, but the reality is, very rarely do you find that ideal player. I think Mike Brown would have been close. He didn't have pure speed, but was very good in coverage, smart, playmaking and solid vs the run. The problem is, Brown is far more the exception rather than the rule. We have brought in SS and SS hoping they could develop coverage skills, but in the end, all proved they were in the box safeties who just were incapable of playing centerfield. The question is, have they learned? I personally doubt it as we drafted Steltz last year, and I think he was drafted w/ FS in mind, even though EVERY scout projected him to be a SS.

 

Maybe not as good as Tillman, but finding a credible safety in free agency at this point seems damn near impossible. More importantly, I feel like we could draft a cornerback in the 2nd or 3rd round, and he could be an effective starter fairly quickly. I can't say that about any safety.

 

I don't know. There seems to be several FS' expected to go in the 2nd round who look pretty good. Also, while the top veteran FS was tagged, that doesn't mean there is nothing available. For example, Jermaine Phillips. He has been playing SS, but has played FS and I think many feel he still can. Coming from TB, he is also familiar w/ our system. Will Allen, also w/ TB, is another I would look at. In Allen, you have a former CB who was moved to FS. I don't think he was a starter this past year, but that was more due to TB having two solid players in front of him. Eugene Wilson is a S I have also kind of liked, and we now have his DB coach. Dawan Landry (Bal) is a RFA, but I am curious what level they sign him. He is a SS, but (a) much better than what we have and (B) w/ him at SS, I would feel better about whoever we have at FS. There are a few others too, but the point is, I personally do not think the options at S are quite as limited as some believe.

 

Yes there would be an expected learning curve, but once again, if he could solidify the position for us it'd be worth it. As for finding a FS, who do you want now that Atogwe is gone?

 

See above. My top choice right now would likely be Phillips, who I believe can play FS and would be a easy fit for our system. He would also add a veteran presence to the position, and leadership.

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