General thoughts on free agency

[bradjock]

1. Wouldn't you just love to know how many offers the Bears have out?? Anybody think that Omiyale is the only guy we called at midnight last Friday?

 

2. I'm guessing Sharper's agent leaked the info the Bears showed interest. Telling a Minnesota newspaper a division rival wants to sign Sharper, might up the Vikings offer. For all we know, the Bears are only offering him the veteran minimum. Technically, we'd still have interest in him, but not much.

 

3. I suspect Angelo makes an offer for a guy and does not waver much. Last year we saw this with Briggs & Berrian where the offers did not change. Hell, we probably could have gotten Briggs to take less money by the end, but we kept our offer the same. This year we've seen Angelo not buge on his offer for St. Clair. The word is that Angelo made an offer, and St. Clair counter-offered to no avail. We have to appreciate Angelo for not getting being emotional & caught in a bidding war. He's good at determining the general market for a player and sticking to it, thus not over-paying. Did anyone notice Tampa Bay signed Mark Clayton for 5 years 26 million??? How the hell does that happen? The guy has been bad since his rookie year. Wow they got screwed.

 

4. Every year I tell myself I'm not going to spend free agency weekend stressing over how little the Bears have done. Yet every year I ignore my own advice. I sure hope like hell we're in the running for Jermaine Phillips.

[azbearsfan]

"1. Wouldn't you just love to know how many offers the Bears have out?? Anybody think that Omiyale is the only guy we called at midnight last Friday?"

 

Yes I would. At least to get some rumors floating around. But JA always puts out the smokescreens, so its hard to know who to believe.

 

 

"2. I'm guessing Sharper's agent leaked the info the Bears showed interest. Telling a Minnesota newspaper a division rival wants to sign Sharper, might up the Vikings offer. For all we know, the Bears are only offering him the veteran minimum. Technically, we'd still have interest in him, but not much."

 

I hope its for the vet minimum. I'm not too keen on him at this stage. For my money, we need a speed, coverage safety to pair with Payne. I know alot on the board don't like Payne, but I do. Fourth on the team in tackles, and first in INTS. For me, he was no worse in coverage or tackling than Mike Brown.

 

"3. I suspect Angelo makes an offer for a guy and does not waver much. Last year we saw this with Briggs & Berrian where the offers did not change. Hell, we probably could have gotten Briggs to take less money by the end, but we kept our offer the same. This year we've seen Angelo not buge on his offer for St. Clair. The word is that Angelo made an offer, and St. Clair counter-offered to no avail. We have to appreciate Angelo for not getting being emotional & caught in a bidding war. He's good at determining the general market for a player and sticking to it, thus not over-paying. Did anyone notice Tampa Bay signed Mark Clayton for 5 years 26 million??? How the hell does that happen? The guy has been bad since his rookie year. Wow they got screwed."

 

Agreed. Some will disagree though, but I hate overpaying for people. I would rather watch a young guy be given a shot than some dude not earning his fat contract. I even hate it when we reward our own guys and they dont play up to contract. So last year I was hating some dudes for that.

 

That being said, I hope we have more tricks up the sleeve or its going to be boring.

 

"4. Every year I tell myself I'm not going to spend free agency weekend stressing over how little the Bears have done. Yet every year I ignore my own advice. I sure hope like hell we're in the running for Jermaine Phillips."

 

lol I know right. Shoot I hope we kick the tires on every Tampa Bay defender that was released to see if they would be an upgrade for our defense. They all are cover 2 guys and could come in and know what to do right away.

[Pixote]

I agree with you guys. To overpay free agents gets you no where. How much do you want to bet that Haynesworth tanks in WAS just like the vast majority of their BIG$$$ FAs have. These FAs are getting way to much money and in many cases slack off afterwords. Jared Allen was an exception for MIN (unfortunately) but there are few FAs who are considered prime time guys who work their ass off after getting the big pay day. It seems like key position players are especially risky in FA.

 

I do think the "TJH" wpuld be one player who would not slack off. However, in our system, I am not sure he would be the answer. I still would prefer see us go after a player like Nate Washington (has he signed yet?) or D Henderson. I think they would be good bargains for us and would be good additions.

 

I suspect we will sign a few more, but not until the dust settles and FAs & their agents accept reality.

[bowlingtwig]

Hey AZ I also like Payne as I think he is starting develop pretty nicely. If you were the GM who would you go out and try to sign. I don't like starting the year with Payne and a rookie Safety. That would scare me. Even if it were the best FS in the draft.

[nfoligno]

3. I suspect Angelo makes an offer for a guy and does not waver much. Last year we saw this with Briggs & Berrian where the offers did not change. Hell, we probably could have gotten Briggs to take less money by the end, but we kept our offer the same. This year we've seen Angelo not buge on his offer for St. Clair. The word is that Angelo made an offer, and St. Clair counter-offered to no avail. We have to appreciate Angelo for not getting being emotional & caught in a bidding war. He's good at determining the general market for a player and sticking to it, thus not over-paying. Did anyone notice Tampa Bay signed Mark Clayton for 5 years 26 million??? How the hell does that happen? The guy has been bad since his rookie year. Wow they got screwed.

 

Just curous, when you say Angelo is good at knowing the market for a player and sticking to it, thus not over-paying, who are you thinking about. Briggs, okay. But one player does not mean a lot. Just means he got it right w/ one player.

 

Yea, I saw where TB signed Clatyor to that deal, but while you wonder about that, do you think anyone out there is wondering about our giving a 4 year backup OL a deal that could be worth as much as $15m, w/ $5.5m guaranteed. I realize Omiyale's deal isn't huge, he is the sort of player who pretty recently would not have seen much more than the veteran minimum.

 

I think FA and the market are very subjective. I mean, we say a player is over-paid, but if several teams were making significant offers, then maybe his market was simply higher than we thought. I think often we say a player is/was overpaid based on what we felt his market value should have been, but that often proves wrong.

 

No one wants to overpay for a player. At the same time, do we really want to take the take it or leave it stance? Seems like that was the sort of style Ditka had back in the day as he never really was capable of working in FA. He had a price he felt a player was worth, and would not change that even if the market proved different for that player. Sounds like a smart business way of doing things until you realize that system just doesn't work. All the quality signs w/ other teams, and you are left w/ the players no one else wanted.

[azbearsfan]

3. I suspect Angelo makes an offer for a guy and does not waver much. Last year we saw this with Briggs & Berrian where the offers did not change. Hell, we probably could have gotten Briggs to take less money by the end, but we kept our offer the same. This year we've seen Angelo not buge on his offer for St. Clair. The word is that Angelo made an offer, and St. Clair counter-offered to no avail. We have to appreciate Angelo for not getting being emotional & caught in a bidding war. He's good at determining the general market for a player and sticking to it, thus not over-paying. Did anyone notice Tampa Bay signed Mark Clayton for 5 years 26 million??? How the hell does that happen? The guy has been bad since his rookie year. Wow they got screwed.

 

Just curous, when you say Angelo is good at knowing the market for a player and sticking to it, thus not over-paying, who are you thinking about. Briggs, okay. But one player does not mean a lot. Just means he got it right w/ one player.

 

Yea, I saw where TB signed Clatyor to that deal, but while you wonder about that, do you think anyone out there is wondering about our giving a 4 year backup OL a deal that could be worth as much as $15m, w/ $5.5m guaranteed. I realize Omiyale's deal isn't huge, he is the sort of player who pretty recently would not have seen much more than the veteran minimum.

 

I think FA and the market are very subjective. I mean, we say a player is over-paid, but if several teams were making significant offers, then maybe his market was simply higher than we thought. I think often we say a player is/was overpaid based on what we felt his market value should have been, but that often proves wrong.

 

No one wants to overpay for a player. At the same time, do we really want to take the take it or leave it stance? Seems like that was the sort of style Ditka had back in the day as he never really was capable of working in FA. He had a price he felt a player was worth, and would not change that even if the market proved different for that player. Sounds like a smart business way of doing things until you realize that system just doesn't work. All the quality signs w/ other teams, and you are left w/ the players no one else wanted.

 

 

Well, in my mind, I dont want to overpay a FA, unless its a QB. Washington does this every year. Never works out.

 

Shoot. It looks like we overpayed our own and they slacked off.

[azbearsfan]

Hey AZ I also like Payne as I think he is starting develop pretty nicely. If you were the GM who would you go out and try to sign. I don't like starting the year with Payne and a rookie Safety. That would scare me. Even if it were the best FS in the draft.

 

I would like to see us get the TB safety that was released. Phillips. I don't remember him much, but I like that he comes from the same system.

 

I also dont think Steltz has the speed for the FS position.

[nfoligno]

I don't think anyone wants to overpay, except Snyder. My point is in questioning when a team "overpays".

 

I think we enter FA w/ a market in mind for players, but if that market turns out to be different, is the player overpaid or were our initial thoughts of their market simply wrong?

 

 

 

Well, in my mind, I dont want to overpay a FA, unless its a QB. Washington does this every year. Never works out.

 

Shoot. It looks like we overpayed our own and they slacked off.

[Stinger226]

I don't think anyone wants to overpay, except Snyder. My point is in questioning when a team "overpays".

 

I think we enter FA w/ a market in mind for players, but if that market turns out to be different, is the player overpaid or were our initial thoughts of their market simply wrong?

 

 

I wish someone had the insight as to what players we want, I think they have a plan, and overpaying is stupid. We have already did that with a receiver and a DE in the recent past. We have money to add several players to upgrade our roster with out going for the bigtime FA's. I think we could use a WR, FS, O-line and maybe a Sam lb. just to get some compitetion no matter who we draft.

[chwtom]

I wish someone had the insight as to what players we want, I think they have a plan, and overpaying is stupid. We have already did that with a receiver and a DE in the recent past. We have money to add several players to upgrade our roster with out going for the bigtime FA's. I think we could use a WR, FS, O-line and maybe a Sam lb. just to get some compitetion no matter who we draft.

 

i think, in general, it would be nice to have a front office that was honest with its fan base. A certain amount of discretion is important, but i have listened to a lot of GMs talk, and Angelo is one of the more evasive and least forthcoming of all. I think if he was a little more open about his intentions and his assessment of the team, he would earn a little more patience and trust from his fans. As it stands, when he sits on his hands as he is now, it makes him look either scared or stupid, because the team has a lot of gaping holes. Again, i know you can't spell out your wish list, but there are ways to be somewhat honest with your fan base without giving away your hand completely.

[bradjock]

Yes I would. At least to get some rumors floating around. But JA always puts out the smokescreens, so its hard to know who to believe.

 

The rumors are always nice for the fans to hear, but if I'm a team, and in most cases an agent, I don't want the rumors out there.

 

As for Angelo and the smokescreens, where exactly does that come from? Perhaps in his earlier days that was true, but I don't remember much of that. I do remember we never met with Cedric before drafting him, and that was considered a smokescreen, but was that even necessary? Hell, if if Cedric had went higher, we'd have gotten Ronnie Brown, Braylon Edwards, or at worst, Cadillac Williams.

 

At this point Angelo seems to be as forthcoming as a general manager possibly can be. He told us he wasn't going to make a big splash in FA, and he hasn't/probably won't. Do you have an example of his smoke-screens? I'm honestly just curious if I'm missing something.

 

I hope its for the vet minimum. I'm not too keen on him at this stage. For my money, we need a speed, coverage safety to pair with Payne. I know alot on the board don't like Payne, but I do. Fourth on the team in tackles, and first in INTS. For me, he was no worse in coverage or tackling than Mike Brown.

 

Hell, I'd say he's worse then Mike Brown. Just more durable. What scares me is that if we sign him, he'd be a one year fix while we continue to draft more safeties.

 

Agreed. Some will disagree though, but I hate overpaying for people. I would rather watch a young guy be given a shot than some dude not earning his fat contract. I even hate it when we reward our own guys and they dont play up to contract. So last year I was hating some dudes for that.

 

Not to mention how it hurts the locker room.

 

I know right. Shoot I hope we kick the tires on every Tampa Bay defender that was released to see if they would be an upgrade for our defense. They all are cover 2 guys and could come in and know what to do right away.

 

It's never a bad idea to "kick the tires" but with the exception of the safety position, and adding a young stud DE, our defense is pretty complete. We have great depth at cb as of right now.

[bradjock]

Just curous, when you say Angelo is good at knowing the market for a player and sticking to it, thus not over-paying, who are you thinking about. Briggs, okay. But one player does not mean a lot. Just means he got it right w/ one player.

 

Honestly, pretty much every guy we've signed. In most cases, JA seems to get bargains. Even after having a crappy season, how much would Harris have made if he'd hit the open market? My guess is that it'd be more then we signed him for.

 

 

Yea, I saw where TB signed Clatyor to that deal, but while you wonder about that, do you think anyone out there is wondering about our giving a 4 year backup OL a deal that could be worth as much as $15m, w/ $5.5m guaranteed. I realize Omiyale's deal isn't huge, he is the sort of player who pretty recently would not have seen much more than the veteran minimum.

 

He's young, yet he's been in the league. He looked great at LT last season (although it was just one start) and he can play multiple positions. At worst he's a very good back-up, at best he's a starter. I think some team would have at least given him damn near that much.

 

At this risk of starting another, "How do you define 'over-paying' for a player" argument, yes we spent a lot of money on a guy who might be a back-up. But it was worth sense we're desperate for youth and versatility at the position. If I'm Carolina with Gross & Okwo manning the position, there's no way I pay it.

 

 

I think FA and the market are very subjective. I mean, we say a player is over-paid, but if several teams were making significant offers, then maybe his market was simply higher than we thought. I think often we say a player is/was overpaid based on what we felt his market value should have been, but that often proves wrong.

 

It's true there are a lot of different ways of looking at it. The Vikings made Bernard Berrian, a good but not great WR, one of the highest paid in the game. Being the highest paid, you'd expect him to be one of the best, and he's not. I ripped them at the time. On hindsight, there's no-way IMO Minny makes the playoffs without him (they damn near didn't anyway). So while they paid too much, he was damn well worth it to them.

[nfoligno]

Honestly, pretty much every guy we've signed. In most cases, JA seems to get bargains. Even after having a crappy season, how much would Harris have made if he'd hit the open market? My guess is that it'd be more then we signed him for.

 

I don't know. I understand your point, but here is mine. The argument has been made that when Angelo doesn't sign a player, it is because another team overpaid, and when Angelo signs a player, it is assumed we signed him to a good deal, and I am just not so sure it is so simple.

 

One, sort of comparding apples and oranges when you talk about player we re-sign who were not FAs. When players have time left on their deal, they do not usually get as much as if they were in FA.

 

Two, when we miss out on a player because another team offered more, it is assumed by bear fans the other team overpaid, but might it not also be that we didn't judge the market for that player?

 

As for Harris, who knows. If he were to hit FA, would he be viewed as elite? He is coming off a pretty mediocre year, and has numerous injuries. Maybe he gets a deal that blows what he signed out of the water, but I think it is also possible he could get less.

 

He's young, yet he's been in the league. He looked great at LT last season (although it was just one start) and he can play multiple positions. At worst he's a very good back-up, at best he's a starter. I think some team would have at least given him damn near that much.

 

Understand, I am not saying we paid him so much money. My point is, just because we signed him, lets not assume it was automatically a good deal. While his agent was saying as many as 11 teams were interested, we really have no idea what the level of interest was. For all we know, no other team was offering close to $5.5m guaranteed.

 

At this risk of starting another, "How do you define 'over-paying' for a player" argument, yes we spent a lot of money on a guy who might be a back-up. But it was worth sense we're desperate for youth and versatility at the position. If I'm Carolina with Gross & Okwo manning the position, there's no way I pay it.

 

Agreed here, and I have said as much. Value of a player for one team is not always the same as w/ another team. We were desperate, and thus may have paid more than other teams, but that doesn't mean we overpaid.

 

It's true there are a lot of different ways of looking at it. The Vikings made Bernard Berrian, a good but not great WR, one of the highest paid in the game. Being the highest paid, you'd expect him to be one of the best, and he's not. I ripped them at the time. On hindsight, there's no-way IMO Minny makes the playoffs without him (they damn near didn't anyway). So while they paid too much, he was damn well worth it to them.

 

That is partially my point. The main thing here is, everyone talks about market value, but what is value. As you mention w/ Omiyale for us and berrian for Minny, a players value for one team can be greater than his value for others.

 

My main thing is simply quesitoning the idea that Angelo's always seems to know player's value. It is as if it is assumed anyone we signed was a good value, and anyone we don't was over-priced. You really trust Angelo that much?

[azbearsfan]

"The rumors are always nice for the fans to hear, but if I'm a team, and in most cases an agent, I don't want the rumors out there.

 

As for Angelo and the smokescreens, where exactly does that come from? Perhaps in his earlier days that was true, but I don't remember much of that. I do remember we never met with Cedric before drafting him, and that was considered a smokescreen, but was that even necessary? Hell, if if Cedric had went higher, we'd have gotten Ronnie Brown, Braylon Edwards, or at worst, Cadillac Williams.

 

At this point Angelo seems to be as forthcoming as a general manager possibly can be. He told us he wasn't going to make a big splash in FA, and he hasn't/probably won't. Do you have an example of his smoke-screens? I'm honestly just curious if I'm missing something."

 

Well by smokescreens I also mean hiding his interest in players until signed. Who even knew about Omiyale until we signed him? That sort of thing. Plus his statement that he is really looking at QB. I call BS on that.

 

"Hell, I'd say he's worse then Mike Brown. Just more durable. What scares me is that if we sign him, he'd be a one year fix while we continue to draft more safeties."

 

Well I disagree with that. From what I saw, Mike Brown really brought nothing this year. Plus he was supposed to be a captain and a leader on defense, so I was really disappointed when I saw the effort of the defense in those last two games. I put that lack of emotion all on the defensive "leaders".

 

"Not to mention how it hurts the locker room."

 

I think that the locker room and the defense have a really weird dynamic. Its like a union or a clique led by the vets. The way I see it, they tend to rest on their laurels but then get crazy angry if one of the vets gets beat out or demoted. Like when Anderson was promoted over A Brown or Bensen was starting over Jones because he had missed some off season stuff. I think they really put the screws to these younger guys until their buddies get to start again. I have nothing really to base it on except a few happenings, but I see it that way.

 

 

"It's never a bad idea to "kick the tires" but with the exception of the safety position, and adding a young stud DE, our defense is pretty complete. We have great depth at cb as of right now."

 

And I dont know all of the people on the defensive side that got let go from TB. But looking at that safety is a no brainer IMO.