QB Options: Jeff Garcia

[nfoligno]

Agreed and agreed.

 

Reading into what Turner said, there is no question in my mind he feels we need to upgrade at both OL and WR. To me, it was somewhat shocking that he actually talked about how we limited Orton to 3 step drops to keep from getting him killed. That is an absolute indictment on our OL.

 

Further, he did say, and has been saying, that we need more from the WR position. As it was most likely Turner who held Bennett back, I do not think he views Bennett as being that player to provide a major upgrade to the WR corp next year.

 

So there is no question in my mind that Turner absolutely wants to upgrade both OL and WR. Now we will see how much pull he has w/ Lovie/Angelo.

 

Didn't Turner also say in Q and A that he wanted to get a legit WR or something?

 

That would add to the notion of not having the players.

I think also if we could improve the line that he would feel better about making the offense more dynamic.

[lemonej]

We don't run 5-7 step drops. We overwhelmingly use 3 step drops.

Last season all the close games that we lost in the 4th qtr was it because the offense or the defense not being able to hold the lead? Carolina,Tampa, and Atlanta are three games that the offense lead by Orton did enough to win the game come to mind.Why is there so much negative talk about the offense when the defense let this team down a lot. I think the Bears should consider one of the safeties at 18 also.Whether its Delmas,Cheung or Moore could all be in the mix at that pick.How about our inconsistent pass rush.Could the Bears be considering a DE? I wouldn't be surprised if they went that way.IMO they should get over their fears and draft a WR to give themselves another weapon on offense.I personally like Hakeem Nicks and think he will be a similar fit to the Bears offense as Forte was last season.

[Stinger226]

Last season all the close games that we lost in the 4th qtr was it because the offense or the defense not being able to hold the lead? Carolina,Tampa, and Atlanta are three games that the offense lead by Orton did enough to win the game come to mind.Why is there so much negative talk about the offense when the defense let this team down a lot. I think the Bears should consider one of the safeties at 18 also.Whether its Delmas,Cheung or Moore could all be in the mix at that pick.How about our inconsistent pass rush.Could the Bears be considering a DE? I wouldn't be surprised if they went that way.IMO they should get over their fears and draft a WR to give themselves another weapon on offense.I personally like Hakeem Nicks and think he will be a similar fit to the Bears offense as Forte was last season.

I am a draftnik and lately have been seeing Nicks getting picked higher and higher on the draft boards. 18th isnt out of the question of taking him to high anymore. I see him going higher than DHB and Harvin.

[nfoligno]

I think most on this board (most) would be in favor of drafting a FS at 18 if one were available of decent value, but as it stands, none of the FS appear to even be worth a 1st round pick, much less the 18th pick. I am not hard against reaching, like I once was, but you have to draw the line, and I think FS would simply be too great of a reach.

 

It would not shock me if Angelo was to look at DEs, but I just question whether any of the DEs who should be there at 18 are really worth it, or that great. It seems like this year, there are a lot of DEs who are expected to be OLBs in a 3-4, or were very inconsistent in college.

 

I understand what you are saying. Defense by far didn't meet expectations. While the offense was far from great, it likely did exceed the expectations of most. However, I think there is an expectation that coaching more than just personnel was key to the defensive issues, and that has been addressed, while on the other side of the ball, personnel more than coaching appeared to be the problem.

 

Last season all the close games that we lost in the 4th qtr was it because the offense or the defense not being able to hold the lead? Carolina,Tampa, and Atlanta are three games that the offense lead by Orton did enough to win the game come to mind.Why is there so much negative talk about the offense when the defense let this team down a lot. I think the Bears should consider one of the safeties at 18 also.Whether its Delmas,Cheung or Moore could all be in the mix at that pick.How about our inconsistent pass rush.Could the Bears be considering a DE? I wouldn't be surprised if they went that way.IMO they should get over their fears and draft a WR to give themselves another weapon on offense.I personally like Hakeem Nicks and think he will be a similar fit to the Bears offense as Forte was last season.

[Mongo3451]

Last season all the close games that we lost in the 4th qtr was it because the offense or the defense not being able to hold the lead? Carolina,Tampa, and Atlanta are three games that the offense lead by Orton did enough to win the game come to mind.Why is there so much negative talk about the offense when the defense let this team down a lot. I think the Bears should consider one of the safeties at 18 also.Whether its Delmas,Cheung or Moore could all be in the mix at that pick.How about our inconsistent pass rush.Could the Bears be considering a DE? I wouldn't be surprised if they went that way.IMO they should get over their fears and draft a WR to give themselves another weapon on offense.I personally like Hakeem Nicks and think he will be a similar fit to the Bears offense as Forte was last season.

I agree the D sould take most of the heat. I was actually impressed with the O the first half of the season. Then the wheels fell off. I think the combination of Orton's injury and opposing defenses figuring out that our OL the patchwork at best lead to teams gameplanning better against us. I actually have some hope for the O again this season. I just need to see an upgrade at OL and WR to gain real faith / hope that we won't regress. The D better step up, period. I'm still mad at that mess.

[jason]

While I don't want to argue whether or not our OC sucks, might another reason we don't have a system, or the system our OC wants to run, is because we don't have the players to run it? Just curious.

 

Frankly, so many teams are said to run a "variation" of the WCO, I don't even know what the hell it is anymore. But isn't a key aspect of the system route running? Well, since our WRs (a) struggle to get quick sep off the LOS and than ( are not great route runners, I wonder if we have had the talent to run the system our OC wants.

 

Is the TE a key element in the WCO? If so, what out 2 TE sets?

 

To me, I think the problem in discussing what our system is, is that we may lack the talent to run the system we want. Do you think, if given the ideal choice, Turner would most prefer to run a 2 TE system, and yet w/ our personnel, does he have much of a choice?

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head, and reiterated something I've said many times before. Turner lacks the creativity to use the players he has effectively. I have been saying for several years that the Bears' WRs are not as bad as everyone says. I constantly get shot down. However, when the Bears' WRs leave, they seem to do fairly well elsewhere, or at least better than they do in Chicago. It's the proverbial square peg in a round hole. It's running Muhsin Muhammed and Marty Booker deep. It's leaving out the two TE lineup when you have Olsen and Clark. It's running a rookie RB into the ground and not putting in competent subs. It's leaving a rookie WR known for having glue on his hands riding the pine while a starting WR drops footballs like their covered in baby oil. It's never making an adjustment after half that surprises the opposing team. And, of course, it's running a small 180lb scat-back, with the ability to break ankles in the open field, straight up the middle, on the goal-line, against the MF Vikings #1 rushing defense.

 

Does he have the players to run his system? I don't think so.

Does he have a system? I don't think so.

Does he have the players to run a system that can do damage and scare opposing defenses? I believe so.

[azbearsfan]

I think you have hit the nail on the head, and reiterated something I've said many times before. Turner lacks the creativity to use the players he has effectively. I have been saying for several years that the Bears' WRs are not as bad as everyone says. I constantly get shot down. However, when the Bears' WRs leave, they seem to do fairly well elsewhere, or at least better than they do in Chicago. It's the proverbial square peg in a round hole. It's running Muhsin Muhammed and Marty Booker deep. It's leaving out the two TE lineup when you have Olsen and Clark. It's running a rookie RB into the ground and not putting in competent subs. It's leaving a rookie WR known for having glue on his hands riding the pine while a starting WR drops footballs like their covered in baby oil. It's never making an adjustment after half that surprises the opposing team. And, of course, it's running a small 180lb scat-back, with the ability to break ankles in the open field, straight up the middle, on the goal-line, against the MF Vikings #1 rushing defense.

 

Does he have the players to run his system? I don't think so.

Does he have a system? I don't think so.

Does he have the players to run a system that can do damage and scare opposing defenses? I believe so.

 

Kramer, Conway, and Graham thought he had a system. Berrian got mad cash cause of his system.

 

Seriously get over it.

 

He also ran Hester deep and Olsen deep and I guess you missed Lloyd going deep.

 

He ran a 2 TE set frequently.

 

So your arguments boil down to him not playing Bennett (he really showed those "glue" hands in preseason) and one play where he ran Wolfe up the gut.

[nfoligno]

I am not as down on Turner as you. I do feel he is slow to adjust, but at the same time, I saw a lot that I liked last year. But when other teams began to adjust, he was slow to return the favor, or didn't at all.

 

But I also give him some credit. You say I nailed it on the head, but I think either I did a poor job of stating my case, or you misunderstood it. My point is that we do in fact lack the talent on offense. I argue that we have talent on defense, but coaching limited them. On offense, while I am not saying Turner is great, I feel it is far more simply about the lack of talent.

 

On some level, I just have to wonder how much we could truly expect from Turner last year. Seriously, think about our personnel. We had an OL which was so bad, we specifically limited our QB to 3 step drops. Further, we had WRs who struggle to get off the LOS clean, struggle to get quick seperation, run sub-par routes, and then display a high percentage (relative) of drops. Combine that w/ the OL and 3 step drops, and I just question how much we should have expected.

 

I give credit to Turner for using 2 TEs sets as much as he did. Further, I give him credit for moving Olsen around so much.

 

But at the end of the day, I simply believe it is personnel more than coaching that has held our offense back. While I feel we can be better on defense simply w/ changes in coaching and scheme, at the same time, if we had a legit genius OC, I question how much better our offense would be.

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head, and reiterated something I've said many times before. Turner lacks the creativity to use the players he has effectively. I have been saying for several years that the Bears' WRs are not as bad as everyone says. I constantly get shot down. However, when the Bears' WRs leave, they seem to do fairly well elsewhere, or at least better than they do in Chicago. It's the proverbial square peg in a round hole. It's running Muhsin Muhammed and Marty Booker deep. It's leaving out the two TE lineup when you have Olsen and Clark. It's running a rookie RB into the ground and not putting in competent subs. It's leaving a rookie WR known for having glue on his hands riding the pine while a starting WR drops footballs like their covered in baby oil. It's never making an adjustment after half that surprises the opposing team. And, of course, it's running a small 180lb scat-back, with the ability to break ankles in the open field, straight up the middle, on the goal-line, against the MF Vikings #1 rushing defense.

 

Does he have the players to run his system? I don't think so.

Does he have a system? I don't think so.

Does he have the players to run a system that can do damage and scare opposing defenses? I believe so.

[nfoligno]

Aside from just Bennett, I think a key to Jason's argument is how WRs leave our team and seem more productive. No one is saying they become pro bowl after leaving, but several WRs have left and looked better. At the same time, I simply feel you have to look at the situations each of them found after leaving the bears.

 

Gage is one of the WRs most often pointed to, but in Tenn, he found a pretty good offense that simply lacked receivers. But in this offense, teams had to really load up the box to stop the rookie and White, and w/ that OL, it made the running game even more effective. That makes the life of a WR much easier.

 

Bradley is another, but he had a couple games and was then hurt AGAIN. You can argue he wasn't given a chance, but I think a key to his time in Chicago was the staff getting tired of his constant injuries and inability to play. KC gave him a chance, and that was very short lived as they found him as brittle as we did.

 

Wade - I think many forget, but Wade was cut FAR MORE due to his problems on special teams, and the fumbles, rather than simply for his receiving. He was a decent depth chart WR. In Minny, he was in an ideal situation. Elite OL and run game, making WRs life easier, and then they even upgraded their WR personnel, so Wade didn't face quality DBs.

 

Moose - IMHO, I believe w/ Moose it was a mental issue. I think Moose lacked confidence in the QB play, and just lacked concentration. Add to that, back in Carolina, he had a better QB, great OL and elite run game, not to mention playing opposite a WR in Steve Smith would commands all the double teams Moose was getting in Chicago.

 

It is easy to talk about how WRs have done better after leaving Chicago, but I think when you look at the situation a tad deeper, you find it is about much more than just the WRs.

 

I would also point out one thing Jason (and I) have screamed about for years is the OL. In most all situations, WRs who have left the bears have gone on to play for teams w/ solid OL, and that makes things easier for the WRs. Pretty hard to look good when your OL is as bad as ours.

 

Kramer, Conway, and Graham thought he had a system. Berrian got mad cash cause of his system.

 

Seriously get over it.

 

He also ran Hester deep and Olsen deep and I guess you missed Lloyd going deep.

 

He ran a 2 TE set frequently.

 

So your arguments boil down to him not playing Bennett (he really showed those "glue" hands in preseason) and one play where he ran Wolfe up the gut.

[azbearsfan]

Aside from just Bennett, I think a key to Jason's argument is how WRs leave our team and seem more productive. No one is saying they become pro bowl after leaving, but several WRs have left and looked better. At the same time, I simply feel you have to look at the situations each of them found after leaving the bears.

 

Gage is one of the WRs most often pointed to, but in Tenn, he found a pretty good offense that simply lacked receivers. But in this offense, teams had to really load up the box to stop the rookie and White, and w/ that OL, it made the running game even more effective. That makes the life of a WR much easier.

 

Bradley is another, but he had a couple games and was then hurt AGAIN. You can argue he wasn't given a chance, but I think a key to his time in Chicago was the staff getting tired of his constant injuries and inability to play. KC gave him a chance, and that was very short lived as they found him as brittle as we did.

 

Wade - I think many forget, but Wade was cut FAR MORE due to his problems on special teams, and the fumbles, rather than simply for his receiving. He was a decent depth chart WR. In Minny, he was in an ideal situation. Elite OL and run game, making WRs life easier, and then they even upgraded their WR personnel, so Wade didn't face quality DBs.

 

Moose - IMHO, I believe w/ Moose it was a mental issue. I think Moose lacked confidence in the QB play, and just lacked concentration. Add to that, back in Carolina, he had a better QB, great OL and elite run game, not to mention playing opposite a WR in Steve Smith would commands all the double teams Moose was getting in Chicago.

 

It is easy to talk about how WRs have done better after leaving Chicago, but I think when you look at the situation a tad deeper, you find it is about much more than just the WRs.

 

I would also point out one thing Jason (and I) have screamed about for years is the OL. In most all situations, WRs who have left the bears have gone on to play for teams w/ solid OL, and that makes things easier for the WRs. Pretty hard to look good when your OL is as bad as ours.

 

 

I too have called out the staff on how WR's go else where to develop. It ties into my stating that the staff (in this case the WR coach) needs to develop their talent. I don't see how that is on the OC. This OC wants to throw the ball. We were starting to see a reemergence of B. Lloyd before the injury. If Davis and Hester could catch, the WR numbers would look a whole lot better. Plus we have a great pass catching TE and RB which takes away chances from the WR's.

 

As far as Bennett goes, there is no way that the staff is sitting on the next Jerry Rice just to play Davis. We saw in preseason Bennet look lost and had the drops. So we aren't going to insert him over a vet, especially since we were in the playoff hunt until the end of the season.

 

I side with you in this piece. I am a big proponent building through OL and DL. I think that those two things make and break both offense and defense.

 

I dont think of Turner as some guru, but he was much better than Jason is trying to make him out. The arguments that he is throwing out are weak at best when you consider all the factors.

I think the talent has not been there for Turner.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I think you have hit the nail on the head, and reiterated something I've said many times before. Turner lacks the creativity to use the players he has effectively. I have been saying for several years that the Bears' WRs are not as bad as everyone says. I constantly get shot down. However, when the Bears' WRs leave, they seem to do fairly well elsewhere, or at least better than they do in Chicago. It's the proverbial square peg in a round hole. It's running Muhsin Muhammed and Marty Booker deep. It's leaving out the two TE lineup when you have Olsen and Clark. It's running a rookie RB into the ground and not putting in competent subs. It's leaving a rookie WR known for having glue on his hands riding the pine while a starting WR drops footballs like their covered in baby oil. It's never making an adjustment after half that surprises the opposing team. And, of course, it's running a small 180lb scat-back, with the ability to break ankles in the open field, straight up the middle, on the goal-line, against the MF Vikings #1 rushing defense.

 

Does he have the players to run his system? I don't think so.

Does he have a system? I don't think so.

Does he have the players to run a system that can do damage and scare opposing defenses? I believe so.

The Bears have the worse WR corps in the freaking league and probably over the past decade. They are absolutely horrendous and I know you continue to believe that it is the coaching staffs fault and think that our receivers have loads of talent but I've seen numerous experts talk about how bad the Bears WR corps are and I'm going to give them the nod, especially since we have few high end draft picks and no one that has every screamed star to me (Berrian was the closest thing we had).

 

Turner did an above average job last year with absolute shit and I mean shit. Lloyd was someones garbage, years removed from doing anything worthwile. Booker was slow and past his prime, Bradley flat out didn't practice nor did he ever stay on the field (he did have athletic ability though), Bennett (who knows), Davis (blows...wasn't even a WR for most of his career, IIRC), and Hester (a project, albeit with good talent). He also had a developing QB, a rookie RB, and a mediocre oline (at best).

 

Hell, Turner is about the only OC over the past 15 years to make the Bears offense look explosive and he did it with Conway, Graham, and Erik Kramer...not too shabby. How about Angelo go out and actually get some high end WR's and give his QB's the ability to freaking succeed and for the offense to score.