Andre Smith bombs

[Chitownhustla]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_...?urn=nfl,147436

 

 

let him drop...... i would draft him.....he can play

[azbearsfan]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_...?urn=nfl,147436

 

 

let him drop...... i would draft him.....he can play

 

 

Yeah, but if scouts are calling it the "worst workout they have ever seen" there has to be a red flag. Nothing would be worse than us taking this dude at 18 and him being a huge bust.

[Wesson44]

He was a bust at his wprkouts, but can he play on the field. Does it really matter what you do at a workout than how you play once the pads go on?

[Mongo3451]

He was a bust at his wprkouts, but can he play on the field. Does it really matter what you do at a workout than how you play once the pads go on?

C'mon Wesson you are thinking like a football player! Seriously, I agree. You can't teach his size and athleticism. Does he have the natural instincts to make him a football player is the big question? That's all up to game tape now. Those scouts could have been spewing dis-information to start the sh!t storm, in hopes that he does fall.

 

To the common fan like us, he has to be dismissed because we don't have the film on him and the ability to interview. To a GM, it's an indicator of his maturity and work ethic. Talent wins out though. It always does. If a GM thinks he's a gamer, he will be taken in the 1st round.

[Wesson44]

C'mon Wesson you are thinking like a football player! Seriously, I agree. You can't teach his size and athleticism. Does he have the natural instincts to make him a football player is the big question? That's all up to game tape now. Those scouts could have been spewing dis-information to start the sh!t storm, in hopes that he does fall.

 

To the common fan like us, he has to be dismissed because we don't have the film on him and the ability to interview. To a GM, it's an indicator of his maturity and work ethic. Talent wins out though. It always does. If a GM thinks he's a gamer, he will be taken in the 1st round.

 

Mongo that was funny. I was thinking like a football player. But the truth is I have played since I was little up through college and have seen alot of players do nothing in pratice and the off seasons, but when the lights come on on game day the are monsters!. But I think this guy will perform once he sees that he will get it that this is not college and your paycheck will depend on what you do on the field.

[akshaz]

Mongo that was funny. I was thinking like a football player. But the truth is I have played since I was little up through college and have seen alot of players do nothing in pratice and the off seasons, but when the lights come on on game day the are monsters!. But I think this guy will perform once he sees that he will get it that this is not college and your paycheck will depend on what you do on the field.

 

You guys are right. Agreed 100%. I wonder how many of his critics have actually watched the kid play. I have seen plenty of Alabama games. They absolutely LOVE this kid over there. He's a beast. Some folks say that he was the best player in the entire SEC last year. Of course, that's a mouthful.

 

I honestly don't put too much stock in a boxed workout. I'll take a "gameday warrior" over a "workout wonder" any day.

 

However, I still think it's funny that he only did 19 reps at 225.

[Wesson44]

You guys are right. Agreed 100%. I wonder how many of his critics have actually watched the kid play. I have seen plenty of Alabama games. They absolutely LOVE this kid over there. He's a beast. Some folks say that he was the best player in the entire SEC last year. Of course, that's a mouthful.

 

I honestly don't put too much stock in a boxed workout. I'll take a "gameday warrior" over a "workout wonder" any day.

 

However, I still think it's funny that he only did 19 reps at 225.

Yes me too. Remember th TE that the 49ers got that run the 4.4 fourty and all that at the combine? Tell me just what has he done in the NFL. Look at how many players that didn't get invited to the combine that are starting for some teams. Like the Saints RB Thomas who ran for 102 yards and caught passes for another 120 yards in the game we won last year. NO other player has done that to the Bears in history.. So you don't have to have a good workout to be a star player in the NFL

[azbearsfan]

I agree you can't always judge a workout, but at some point it should factor into your assessment. We aren't talking about a sleeper 4th round pick. We are talking about someone who was once considered for the top pick in the draft.

 

So the fact that this guy is throwing away millions of dollars is ok with you guys? Is it that hard to work out from January to the combine if your future is involved?

 

To me, it says that he is either lazy or doesn't have a passion for the game.

And there are plenty of players who look good in college and are terrible in the league.

 

Just stuff to think about...

[balta1701-A]

If his workout was truly that bad, I could see him dropping in to the 2nd.

[nfoligno]

And if those scouts are from Det and Minny? Read an article yesterday talking about this, and how funny the reports are. Teams drafting behind us who like Smith are going to do everything they can to kill his draft stock so that he may potentially fall to them. Think about it. If Detroit or Minny (just using them as examples) like Smith, and both need a RT, are they more likely to try and pump up his value so he is gone or say his workout bombed and then grab him when he falls.

 

Yeah, but if scouts are calling it the "worst workout they have ever seen" there has to be a red flag. Nothing would be worse than us taking this dude at 18 and him being a huge bust.

[nfoligno]

Seriously, I just have to wonder about all this. I am wondering what scouts had to be honestly expecting. Everything I have read said he was also considered a "fat boy" in college, and yet he was a stud on the field. Was the expectation he would suddenly show up ripped? Remember our fat boys from years ago (Traylor/Washington). What do we think they would have looked like w/o their shirts. Never mind, no one wants that image.

 

Looking at some of Smiths numbers.

 

40 - 5.28. No, not good, but then again, how about looking at that number in comparison. Jason Smith, who is now considered the top OT in the draft, posted a 5.22 at nearly 20lbs lighter. In fact, looking at the top 10 OL, I don't think any were over 310lbs, and thus I just have to wonder what exactly should have been the expectation for an OT weighing in at 325.

 

3 cone - 7.88. Again, not great, but the 10th best OL put up 7.62, and again, I think all the top 10 were on the lighter side. Similar is seen in the shuttle as well.

 

A big area of concern is also strength, looking at his 19 bench presses, but I think it should also be pointed out that he has the longest arms of all the OTs in the draft, and looking the others w/ 35'' or better, all were in the low 20s. So while he didn't do that well, I have to wonder how much is about his actual strength v how much is about his long arms and the bench press not being a good indicators.

 

Instead of just looking at his numbers in a stand alone way, how about looking at them relative. Monroe is either the #1 or #2 OT according to most, yet his numbers were far from great. He is about 15-20lbs lighter than Smith, and yet his numbers were not that much better. 40/5.28. He did 4 more reps (23) than Smith, but also is 2'' shorter in the arm, and lets not pretend 24 is so great either.

 

Point is, I think people were looking for great numbers, but I just question the expectations. He is heavier than most any other top prospect, and his numbers were not that much worse than the other top OT prospects, though they are all lighter. If you go off the numbers, Jason Smith, Monroe and Oher would not be considered a top tier OT, and yet all are.

 

I agree you can't always judge a workout, but at some point it should factor into your assessment. We aren't talking about a sleeper 4th round pick. We are talking about someone who was once considered for the top pick in the draft.

 

So the fact that this guy is throwing away millions of dollars is ok with you guys? Is it that hard to work out from January to the combine if your future is involved?

 

To me, it says that he is either lazy or doesn't have a passion for the game.

And there are plenty of players who look good in college and are terrible in the league.

 

Just stuff to think about...

[azbearsfan]

Seriously, I just have to wonder about all this. I am wondering what scouts had to be honestly expecting. Everything I have read said he was also considered a "fat boy" in college, and yet he was a stud on the field. Was the expectation he would suddenly show up ripped? Remember our fat boys from years ago (Traylor/Washington). What do we think they would have looked like w/o their shirts. Never mind, no one wants that image.

 

Looking at some of Smiths numbers.

 

40 - 5.28. No, not good, but then again, how about looking at that number in comparison. Jason Smith, who is now considered the top OT in the draft, posted a 5.22 at nearly 20lbs lighter. In fact, looking at the top 10 OL, I don't think any were over 310lbs, and thus I just have to wonder what exactly should have been the expectation for an OT weighing in at 325.

 

3 cone - 7.88. Again, not great, but the 10th best OL put up 7.62, and again, I think all the top 10 were on the lighter side. Similar is seen in the shuttle as well.

 

A big area of concern is also strength, looking at his 19 bench presses, but I think it should also be pointed out that he has the longest arms of all the OTs in the draft, and looking the others w/ 35'' or better, all were in the low 20s. So while he didn't do that well, I have to wonder how much is about his actual strength v how much is about his long arms and the bench press not being a good indicators.

 

Instead of just looking at his numbers in a stand alone way, how about looking at them relative. Monroe is either the #1 or #2 OT according to most, yet his numbers were far from great. He is about 15-20lbs lighter than Smith, and yet his numbers were not that much better. 40/5.28. He did 4 more reps (23) than Smith, but also is 2'' shorter in the arm, and lets not pretend 24 is so great either.

 

Point is, I think people were looking for great numbers, but I just question the expectations. He is heavier than most any other top prospect, and his numbers were not that much worse than the other top OT prospects, though they are all lighter. If you go off the numbers, Jason Smith, Monroe and Oher would not be considered a top tier OT, and yet all are.

 

 

For me, its more about a laziness and lack of preparation for the most important job interview of your life......

 

I dont even care that much about the actual numbers.

[nfoligno]

But what do you base your opinion that he wasn't prepared on? What other than the numbers leads you to believe he wasn't or didn't prepare?

 

 

For me, its more about a laziness and lack of preparation for the most important job interview of your life......

 

I dont even care that much about the actual numbers.

[akshaz]

A big area of concern is also strength, looking at his 19 bench presses, but I think it should also be pointed out that he has the longest arms of all the OTs in the draft, and looking the others w/ 35'' or better, all were in the low 20s. So while he didn't do that well, I have to wonder how much is about his actual strength v how much is about his long arms and the bench press not being a good indicators.

 

I have a nephew that is playing college ball next year. Last year, he made the rounds at all of the camps/scouting combines. Nike's Sparq training doesn't use the bench press anymore as an indicator of football skills. They have a new "medicine ball throw" that, according to them, simulates game action much better.

 

Now, I can understand AzBearfan's point about not being prepared for the biggest "interview" in his life. That does speak somewhat to character. However, those in Alabama say that he is an exceptional kid on and off the field. He comes from a good family etc.

 

Surely, he's worth taking a chance on IMHO. Heck, I'd even trade up a few spots to get him.

[balta1701-A]

Now, I can understand AzBearfan's point about not being prepared for the biggest "interview" in his life. That does speak somewhat to character. However, those in Alabama say that he is an exceptional kid on and off the field. He comes from a good family etc.

And yet he also got himself suspended for the final game of his college career. At some point, mistakes start becoming a trend.

[sprout]

He may be talking about how he didn't do the drills at the combine because he said he got a late start in preparation for the combine. He was claiming that he would be in shape for this workout and he wasn't.

 

All that being said, if he was there at 18, I'd take him.

 

But what do you base your opinion that he wasn't prepared on? What other than the numbers leads you to believe he wasn't or didn't prepare?

[AZ54]

I can find a lot of 21 years olds who make stupid mistakes. I know this, you don't bench press a DE, you get your axx in front of him and stay there, or you push his outside rush wide of the QB. For part A you need good feet to get in position and the strength in your lower body and legs to anchor yourself. For part B you need good feet and long arms. I'm not going to impersonate a scout but I've watched a fair number of these OTs workout at the combine and saw some of the footage of Smith's workout. He might not be fast in a race but he has good feet and balance as compared to these other top OTs. Certainly not worse. As far as anchoring your base and moving a DE or DT I've often wondered why these guys do a bench press versus 300lbs squats. Exactly what muscles are more key in run blocking and for endurance during a game?

 

If this is a kid with #1 overall talent who played last season like a blue chip player and he falls to us at #18 then IMO he's worth the risk. It might take him a year or two to mature but most people do. He'd be worth the risk. Even if he doesn't pan out elite his floor is probably a lot higher than what we've had at RT the last couple years, think something like Big Cat.

[nfoligno]

W/ the understanding that I want to draft him if he is there, and I feel he is worth the risk at 18, I have to also say that his floor is FAR lower than Big Cat.

 

The key red flag seems to be surrounding attitude/mental or committment. If he fails, it will not be due to talent, but due to these things. Think Cedric Benson if you want to know what his floor is like. No, I do not think he will be like Benson, but if we are going to face the risk, I think we should understand what it is. To me, Smith is a boom/bust player. I do not see a ton if middle ground. W/ his talent, I think he could be a dominant, pro bowl OT. However, if he needs to grow up and doesn't, then the floor could be out of the NFL all together.

 

I can find a lot of 21 years olds who make stupid mistakes. I know this, you don't bench press a DE, you get your axx in front of him and stay there, or you push his outside rush wide of the QB. For part A you need good feet to get in position and the strength in your lower body and legs to anchor yourself. For part B you need good feet and long arms. I'm not going to impersonate a scout but I've watched a fair number of these OTs workout at the combine and saw some of the footage of Smith's workout. He might not be fast in a race but he has good feet and balance as compared to these other top OTs. Certainly not worse. As far as anchoring your base and moving a DE or DT I've often wondered why these guys do a bench press versus 300lbs squats. Exactly what muscles are more key in run blocking and for endurance during a game?

 

If this is a kid with #1 overall talent who played last season like a blue chip player and he falls to us at #18 then IMO he's worth the risk. It might take him a year or two to mature but most people do. He'd be worth the risk. Even if he doesn't pan out elite his floor is probably a lot higher than what we've had at RT the last couple years, think something like Big Cat.

[azbearsfan]

I can find a lot of 21 years olds who make stupid mistakes. I know this, you don't bench press a DE, you get your axx in front of him and stay there, or you push his outside rush wide of the QB. For part A you need good feet to get in position and the strength in your lower body and legs to anchor yourself. For part B you need good feet and long arms. I'm not going to impersonate a scout but I've watched a fair number of these OTs workout at the combine and saw some of the footage of Smith's workout. He might not be fast in a race but he has good feet and balance as compared to these other top OTs. Certainly not worse. As far as anchoring your base and moving a DE or DT I've often wondered why these guys do a bench press versus 300lbs squats. Exactly what muscles are more key in run blocking and for endurance during a game?

 

If this is a kid with #1 overall talent who played last season like a blue chip player and he falls to us at #18 then IMO he's worth the risk. It might take him a year or two to mature but most people do. He'd be worth the risk. Even if he doesn't pan out elite his floor is probably a lot higher than what we've had at RT the last couple years, think something like Big Cat.

 

Well, the first thing is that if he falls to us and then he takes two years to develop, fans will be calling this a bust and will be killing JA. This dude has more talent than Williams and people were roasting JA for Williams getting hurt and taking a year to get better. You dont take a guy with number one overall talent and wait for him to mature for two years. Thats part of the problem with him.

 

Again my questions have nothing to do with his feet, or numbers. My questions are with why he is falling and his lack of preparation for the combine/workouts. PEople are making it sound like the sole reason he is falling is due to some magic the scouts for teams behind us and concocting. I dont buy it. Something else is going on here and I think its fair to question it.

 

I keep hearing that the kid is great on and off the field and comes from a good family. But what kind of family allows a kid to show up and throw away millions of dollars? IS he a nice kid who is coddled? What is going to happen the first time J Allen beats him and talks crap and dances on him? Will he lose the "love for the game"?

 

We aren;t talking about some 2nd rounder falling to the 4th. We are talking about someone who was going to be the number one pick in the draft potentially falling down to us. To me, that is a red flag. Doesn't mean he can't be a great player. I just want to know why.

[Mongo3451]

Well, the first thing is that if he falls to us and then he takes two years to develop, fans will be calling this a bust and will be killing JA. This dude has more talent than Williams and people were roasting JA for Williams getting hurt and taking a year to get better. You dont take a guy with number one overall talent and wait for him to mature for two years. Thats part of the problem with him.

 

Again my questions have nothing to do with his feet, or numbers. My questions are with why he is falling and his lack of preparation for the combine/workouts. PEople are making it sound like the sole reason he is falling is due to some magic the scouts for teams behind us and concocting. I dont buy it. Something else is going on here and I think its fair to question it.

 

I keep hearing that the kid is great on and off the field and comes from a good family. But what kind of family allows a kid to show up and throw away millions of dollars? IS he a nice kid who is coddled? What is going to happen the first time J Allen beats him and talks crap and dances on him? Will he lose the "love for the game"?

 

We aren;t talking about some 2nd rounder falling to the 4th. We are talking about someone who was going to be the number one pick in the draft potentially falling down to us. To me, that is a red flag. Doesn't mean he can't be a great player. I just want to know why.

 

The last 2 players I have seen fall this far from grace prior to the draft are Randy Moss and Warren Sapp. Both will be 1st ballot. Smith at #18 is a no brainer and would actually be our best LT option.

[Stinger226]

The last 2 players I have seen fall this far from grace prior to the draft are Randy Moss and Warren Sapp. Both will be 1st ballot. Smith at #18 is a no brainer and would actually be our best LT option.

Every year there is a top 10 type player that drops, we have to take him if he is there. Him not living up to the #1 pick status he once was, is still probably better than anyone we have now. If he only becomes a longtime starter instead of perenial all pro, I can live with that.

[azbearsfan]

The last 2 players I have seen fall this far from grace prior to the draft are Randy Moss and Warren Sapp. Both will be 1st ballot. Smith at #18 is a no brainer and would actually be our best LT option.

 

 

Well hell, I didn't realize it was a guarantee that Smith was going to be a HOFer.

 

I didn't know that there was no chance of him becoming a Mike Williams. Especially since people were saying the same things about Williams (he is a gamer, workouts dont matter, etc) as they are Smith.

 

You must be rich if you have a crystal ball that good.

[Mongo3451]

Well hell, I didn't realize it was a guarantee that Smith was going to be a HOFer.

 

I didn't know that there was no chance of him becoming a Mike Williams. Especially since people were saying the same things about Williams (he is a gamer, workouts dont matter, etc) as they are Smith.

 

You must be rich if you have a crystal ball that good.

I said this about Smith, "Smith at #18 is a no brainer and would actually be our best LT option." Put down the taroh cards when you read posts. Anyway, can you name other players that were rumored to one of the top picks in the draft that fell like Sapp and Moss? Another poster said it happens all the time and my memory doesn't serve me well on the issue.

 

As far as Mike Williams is concerned; that's not how I recall him. I remember people talking about how slow he was and at 240 he possibly could be a TE. How far did he fall anyway? All the way to #8. Huge collapse from 3 or 4.

[AZ54]

W/ the understanding that I want to draft him if he is there, and I feel he is worth the risk at 18, I have to also say that his floor is FAR lower than Big Cat.

 

The key red flag seems to be surrounding attitude/mental or committment. If he fails, it will not be due to talent, but due to these things. Think Cedric Benson if you want to know what his floor is like. No, I do not think he will be like Benson, but if we are going to face the risk, I think we should understand what it is. To me, Smith is a boom/bust player. I do not see a ton if middle ground. W/ his talent, I think he could be a dominant, pro bowl OT. However, if he needs to grow up and doesn't, then the floor could be out of the NFL all together.

 

 

I can't really argue against that since technically that is pretty much every players floor. He may be more likely than others to find it but his red flags are different in the sense that they suddenly showed up. When you look at guys like Moss those issues were surrounding the player since high school and stayed all throughout college. I don't Smith's background at all but it doesn't appear that way with him. It seems he got caught up in his own press clippings and let it go to his head in the last 6 months. It's still pretty stupid what he's done but to take this around and question his family background for a lack of guidance as others have done doesn't make sense to anyone who has raised several kids through their teenage years and into their 20's. At some point most teens or young adults struggle finding their balance between work and the fun things in life. Staring at a $40mil salary would have affected me when I was 21, and not for the best.

 

If I were a GM the question I'd be pressing my scouts to answer is what was this kid like his first couple years at school? Was he working hard early on? Here's some of his accomplishments that indicate he was. How do you start at LT as a freshman and perform like he did if you don't put some work in? Playing through games with both ankles sprained?

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1255104

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An impressive physical specimen who compares to Dallas Cowboys' guard Leonard Davis, Smith possesses outstanding agility and quickness for his size. Regarded as a premier offensive line prospect out of high school and one of the standouts of the 2005 recruiting class, he went on to establish himself as the elite at the college level, as evidenced by being named the recipient of the 2008 Outland Trophy.

 

Even at 343 pounds, Smith displays excellent foot speed and agility. He started every game (38) in which he played for the Crimson Tide, missing the 2009 Sugar Bowl when he was ruled ineligible for direct contact with an agent. In addition to earning the Outland Trophy in 2008, he was won Alabama's Paul Crane Offensive Lineman Award, shared the Southeastern Conference's Jacobs Blocking Trophy with Arkansas' Jonathan Luigs, was twice chosen an All-SEC first-team pick and added consensus All-American first-team notice in 2008.

 

....Smith enrolled at Alabama in 2005, taking over at left tackle. He became the seventh true freshman in school history to start in his first career game since 1972...He delivered 70 knockdown blocks as he led the team by being on the field for 831 offensive and special teams plays.

 

Smith garnered team Player of the Week honors four times during his sophomore season, when he shed over 25 pounds from his once 370-pound frame prior to the season opener.

 

He started all 13 games, as he was named All-SEC and earned the league's Jacobs Blocking Trophy. He led the conference down linemen with 116 knockdowns and had fifteen touchdown-resulting blocks while allowing only 1.5 quarterback sacks on 472 pass plays. He was penalized five times and played the second part of the season with a left ankle sprain suffered vs. Tennessee and a right ankle sprain incurred the next week in the Louisiana State clash.

 

As a junior, Smith was a consensus All-American and unanimous All-SEC first-team pick. The Outland Trophy and Jacobs Blocking Trophy recipient saw his campaign get off to a rough start. He suffered a knee sprain in the season opener vs. Clemson that forced him to sit out the following week vs. Tulane and play just two quarters upon his return, vs. Western Kentucky. He also sprained his elbow in the season's sixth contest vs. Kentucky, but still delivered 103 knockdowns while pacing SEC blockers with seventeen touchdown-resulting blocks.

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and some things that say he's not a hard worker but does seem to love playing the game:

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Character: Runs hot and cold. The coaches have cited "growing pains," especially with his work ethic. He gets by a lot on physical talent and while his suspension was well-publicized, there have been other "minor" issues that make one wonder if he will just go through the motions or that he will mature at the next level. GRADE: 5.5

 

Competitiveness: On the field, Smith will challenge any opponent that dares to get in his way when drive blocking. He knows how to use his explosive upper-body power to punish, but will get lazy during the games and shows inconsistency shooting those powerful hands. There are times when he simply dominates the action, but when he feels that he is not being challenged, he will throttle down. Scouts have often shown concerns about his lack of a consistent motor, especially questioning his overall aggressiveness. GRADE: 6.5

 

Work Habits: Smith has always battled the "bulge" and while he is best playing at 335-340, he has seen his weight balloon to the 375-380 range, where that added bulk has affected his overall mobility. He needs to be monitored in the training room, but will respond to tough coaching.

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and an interesting thought when looking at what his floor might be:

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Compares To: LEONARD DAVIS, Dallas -- Davis is at least two inches taller, but both could be better lined up inside. Davis proved to be a better interior performer after trying to play on the edge. While Smith might be a good fit at right tackle, some prefer him better as an interior lineman, feeling his lack of lateral range (especially moving to his left) is a big concern for a player that must protect the quarterback's blindside. To date, he has made a nice living vs. smaller opponents (average weight of his main blocking assignment over the last two years is 262.4 pounds, more than 80 pounds lighter than Smith), but in the NFL, he will face much bigger and much quicker defensive ends and his excellent straight-line explosiveness will compensate for his lateral mobility problems.

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Between the hard working Britton and the highly talented but hot/cold Smith who might end up having to move inside who would JA pick? If he feels he needs more confidence in filling the RT spot now it might be Britton.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

If, and a BIG if Andre Smith is available at 18, there's no hesitating on drafting him. The worst the kid could do is be a Probowl RT or LG. All this negative news on him about being out of shape, skipping the combine is only going to give a team slotted around 10 a great chance to draft a good offensive lineman. All these tackles in the draft are first graded/ranked to play LT. Britton is the only OT so far that scouts are saying is better suited to play the RT spot because of his short arms and lateral movement. The rest of the OT's can be starting LT's in the league, and if they aren't probowl caliber there, move them to RT where the less skilled DE is, the better the OT looks.

 

Andre's problem in my eye is he is still a little immature. He's still a kid in a monster body. Jason Smith and him both had trouble/failed to get an agent and the agent is usually the one putting these players in camps to prepare them for the combine/nfl. If you get a chance, watch some NFL network channel when there covering path to the draft. They have some segement's on Smith and you can see he's not a bad apple. He got a unfortunate late start on preparing for the combine and hasn't had the greatest support (agent) to bring him along. If I were in JA's shoe's and he was available at the 10 spot, I'd be calling trying to find out what it would take to get this kid.