Pace a "priority", would play LT

[azbearsfan]

Holt was officially released nearly 3 weeks ago. He had a roster bonus due mid-march that the Rams didn't want to pay.

 

 

Thanks for finding that. I couldn't recall.

 

Hopefully we will be taking a look then. Maybe he likes ol Lovie too.

[AZ54]

I prefer to put Pace at RT where he'll be a better fit than Williams. After playing the left side for so many years he'll have a learning curve but he's a talented player and he'll figure it out. Then Pace is your backup LT and Shaffer is the backup RT. Of course Omiyale is available too.

[jason]

Moving Williams to RT is stupid as hell IMHO. I am going to save the argument of whether or not we should add Pace at all for the other thread already talking about that. But the issue I have here is the idea that we would play Pace at LT and move Williams to RT, though I question if that is even the actual plan. It was mentioned by this writer, but it seems many other writers felt Pace would play RT.

 

Last year, leading up to the draft, we all knew OT was a priority, and we all read tons of scouting reports on Williams, as well as the rest of the OTs. One thing that always stood out to me, and part of the reason I was never that high on Williams was he was viewed as strictly a LT. He was considered a finesse OT suited to play LT due to his athleticism, but lacking the power and strength to play RT or even move inside. There were many threads talking about how Williams posed the greatest boom/bust of the OTs, because while he was viewed more strictly as a LT, others were considered more capable of moving to a different position. Williams was deemed to have greater upside at LT though, which was our key need, and thus our pick.

 

But now we would consider moving him to RT? Come on. From what I have read, we want to add size to the OL and have even talked about mauler style OL for the right side. Everything read to date implies we want to beef up on the OL, and moving Williams to the right side would seem to counter that idea.

 

Further, I have to ask, does this really help his development? He has already missed year one. If we add Pace and he plays two years, that means the franchis LT we drafted would not play LT until, at best, his 4th season. That sounds good to everyone here? If we wanted a RT, there were superior RT prospects on the board. We drafted Williams to be our LT, and to me, talk of moving him now seems like we are giving up a little to easily on him.

 

Sorry, but this just does not make sense to me. It sounds far too much like another short term bandaid while hurting the development of the only damn OL we actually drafted.

 

Completely agreed...but I still want him on the Bears. I'm almost giddy thinking that the Bears could possibly have Pace. If they plan on making a play for Cutler, this would be quite an incentive.

[selection7]

Why be so against Pace unless he's going to cost alot? In the NFL you need depth and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if by being the backup Williams actually gets to play most of the season because, for example, in game 5 Pace gets hurt. On some teams, Pace might have to play through the pain and be criticized at the end of the season for his poor play, on ours, we could just stick Williams in. Once the season gets going it might be better to give Williams first team reps just to rest the veteran Pace anyway, so he'd get good experience. It just reminds of the Cedric Benson debacle. The Bears don't get brownie points for developing a player. All that matters is how good is the guy starting and how much is he getting paid. Doesn't matter if he was a draft pick or even a high draft pick. Hopefully we've learned that lesson. I was well convinced about the whole not moving him to RT thing though.

[bowlingtwig]

Why be so against Pace unless he's going to cost alot? In the NFL you need depth and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if by being the backup Williams actually gets to play most of the season because, for example, in game 5 Pace gets hurt. On some teams, Pace might have to play through the pain and be criticized at the end of the season for his poor play, on ours, we could just stick Williams in. Once the season gets going it might be better to give Williams first team reps just to rest the veteran Pace anyway, so he'd get good experience. It just reminds of the Cedric Benson debacle. The Bears don't get brownie points for developing a player. All that matters is how good is the guy starting and how much is he getting paid. Doesn't matter if he was a draft pick or even a high draft pick. Hopefully we've learned that lesson. I was well convinced about the whole not moving him to RT thing though.

We could also bring in good Vet like Pace to help mentor some of our younger lineman like Williams. Who better to help in that process that is actually available than Pace. We have to remember that he is a 7 time pro bowl who also has big game experience. Of course I am with you on the fact that I wouldn't want to pay him alot although he probably isn't going to come really cheap though either. Does anyone happen to know what kind of offer that Baltimore is offering him???

[Stinger226]

Let me get this straight. You want to sign Pace and let him compete w/ Williams, who has never started a game? Yea, that is a fair competition. It is fairly obvious Pace would win, and if he didn't, then he was really a wasted signing.

 

So what then. You have a 1st round pick sitting on the bench? How much exactly is he developing while getting splinters?

I dont really care if he developes, I want the best player out there, and if he aint good enough or needs more time so be it. Your stuck on this draft a OT high and play him so he can develope. I agree that is the best senario, but Colombo was a high draft pick, that didnt work in that case. I just want the team to be better, and we still dont know if Williams can play? You want Williams to play and if he's bad, just part of the process? Screw that. None of us know if Pace is still any good or if Williams will be good. Lets at least have options, if something doesnt work out.

[nfoligno]

So, in your mind, starting at left tackle is the only way we will know if C Will is the real deal and the only way to develop. I dont buy it, there are mini camps, preseason and practices to see development and to get better.

 

Aren't you a coach. You seriously going to sit there and say practice time and real game experience are equal? How many players work only in practice and truly develop? Come on. While there is no question practice is part of the process, I have no idea how you can pretend players develop w/o playing in games.

 

Also, you need to make up your mind on Pace. If he is in such a decline that he can't play LT any more, then Williams should be able to beat him out. If he hasn't declined that much, and perhaps it was injuries that have been the more the problem, and he is able to show he is much better than Williams, then sign him to play LT. If he can go at LT anymore, then put him at RT. But to just pass on him is crazy.

 

Come on. Williams is essentially a rookie this year. Pace may be on the decline, but if you have a competion between the two, there really is little question Pace should beat him out. If St.C were here, and there was a legit competition, I think St.C would win the job. That is simply the experience factor vs the talent. Talent wins in the end, but experience gives the initial leg up.

 

As for consistency, let me explain. If we bring in Pace, I believe his skills have decline, but not to the point he should not beat out a rookie OT. That does NOT mean it is in our best interests to have Pace start and our 1st round, franchise LT sit on the bench. And if Williams did beat out Pace, then I would say Pace has decline more than we realize, and is not even worth the roster spot.

 

Oh, so really your point is if we sign Pace then there is no way to build the line for the future. I would argue having Williams, Beekman, Omi, Buenning, and whatever draft picks we make this year IS building the oline for the future.

 

Yes, that is my argument. I think we have already hurt our chances to build for the future, and adding Pace would basically lock out OL in the draft. At the end of your statement, you mention "whatever draft picks we make this year". Understand, that is 100% my point. IMHO, if we add Pace, we will not draft OL this year. If we do, it will be in the 6th/7th rounds, and lets be honest, that is little better than not drafting at all. You can argue that we would still look at OL if we add Pace, but that is a different argument than our current. I view Pace as a roadblock to the future.

 

As for the rest of your list, aside from Williams, come on. That is what you want to think of as our future? Beekman, fine, but the staff have felt all along he was a center and do not like him at OG, so lets consider him Kreutz' potential replacement. Omiyale as building for the future kills me. Why? Based on what. The guy has been in the league 4 years, playing on two teams, and spent half that time on the practice squad. Sorry, but as much hype as I read, it just does not seem like he is the shining star some make him out to be. He is far from a sure thing THIS YEAR, much less a player to build around. And Buenning? Come on. I swear if Metcalf were on the team still you would have listed him.

 

Understand this. If I believed Angelo would still look at OL in the 2nd and/or 3rd round of the draft after signing Pace, I would be all for it, though I would look at Pace at RT. But my belief is we would not draft OL that high, and likely not until the end of the draft. To me, that is going along the same path Angelo has always followed w/ regard to the OL, and which has caused to us consider OL a top tier need basically every year under Angelo's tenure. I want to change that path. Simple as that.

[nfoligno]

One. Columbo is a bogus example. His short tenure in Chicago was 100% due to injury, so I don't see how he is a good example for any side of the argument.

 

Two. Do I want to play a 1st round pick and see if he can play? Um, yes. That is called player development. The only team I know of that doesn't believe in this is Washington. Every other team in the league follows the idea of player development. Exactly how does an OL develop if he can't get on the field? Its one thing when you are talking about maybe a WR, or a DB, as they can play other packages w/o being a starter. But you do not rotate OL, and thus if you want to develop a 1st round pick, you have to play him.

 

You say we still don't know if Williams can play. Well, how can we know if we don't play him? Lets say we sign Pace, and he gives us one good season. Heck, lets say two. Meanwhile Williams is on the bench. When Pace is finished, what then. We STILL do not know if Williams can play.

 

I'm sorry. But when you use a #1 pick on a player, you need to play them. You have to see what they can do. At many/most positions, you can do this w/o actually making the player a starter, but OL is one of the very few units on the team where you do not rotate, and you try to maintain chemistry. So if you draft an OT in the 1st, you play him. If you don't plan to play him, then frankly, you should have never drafted him.

 

None of us know if Pace is still any good or if Williams will be good. Lets at least have options, if something doesnt work out.

 

I do not mind options, but in Pace, you also create a problem. He is simply not a backup. He is not going to sign to be a backup. On the other side of it, you have your LT drafted in the 1st round and considered your franchise LT. I would argue he too can not sit on the bench. Thus lies your problem if you have both. It's one thing when you have a player like St Clair. He can be inserted if Williams bombs, but at the same time, is not too good to sit on the bench. I think we would create that problem w/ Pace.

 

Now, if Pace is considered a RT for us, that is another story. Still not a fan as I think it precludes us from going OL in the draft, but that is totally a different argument.

 

 

 

 

I dont really care if he developes, I want the best player out there, and if he aint good enough or needs more time so be it. Your stuck on this draft a OT high and play him so he can develope. I agree that is the best senario, but Colombo was a high draft pick, that didnt work in that case. I just want the team to be better, and we still dont know if Williams can play? You want Williams to play and if he's bad, just part of the process? Screw that. None of us know if Pace is still any good or if Williams will be good. Lets at least have options, if something doesnt work out.

[nfoligno]

Holy Crap Jason. Your killing me. I am holding the "draft OL" argument basically by myself at this point.

 

You want Pace, but let me ask you this. Do you think there is ANY CHANCE Angelo still lookes at the OL relatively early in the draft if we add Pace. I am not talking 1st round. I frankly think that is already out w/ Omiyale and Shaffer added. But lets say Loadholt falls to us in the 2nd. Or maybe Duke is there in the 2nd. Hell, what if Duke falls to us in the 3rd. I would put money on the line that Angelo would pass on Duke in the 3rd if we add Pace. IMHO, there is simply no way Angelo goes OL early if we have added 3 OL in FA, giving out guaranteed dollars to each one of them.

 

Have you just writting off drafting OL? Or do you honestly believe there is a chance Angelo would still draft OL if we added yet another veteran OL? IMHO, if we add Pace, we can write off OL in the draft until the 6th, and more likely the 7th round. To me, that is just more of the same. That is what Angelo has done every year he has been here, and why OL remains a high need every off season.

 

Completely agreed...but I still want him on the Bears. I'm almost giddy thinking that the Bears could possibly have Pace. If they plan on making a play for Cutler, this would be quite an incentive.

[azbearsfan]

Aren't you a coach. You seriously going to sit there and say practice time and real game experience are equal? How many players work only in practice and truly develop? Come on. While there is no question practice is part of the process, I have no idea how you can pretend players develop w/o playing in games.

 

I never said they were equal. In fact, players DO develope in practice. Its really surprising that you are arguing otherwise. If you have a chance to get a player like Pace, it can only help Williams. Working with and learning from a 7 time probowler will only help Williams. And get out of here with your condescending "Aren't you a coach?" crap. Go do it and then come back and tell me that you dont develop players in practice. So basically you are saying that we shouldn't sign Holt because that would take away from Bennetts development which was already severly hindered because we didn't toss him out there before he was ready last year. Astounding.

 

 

Come on. Williams is essentially a rookie this year. Pace may be on the decline, but if you have a competion between the two, there really is little question Pace should beat him out. If St.C were here, and there was a legit competition, I think St.C would win the job. That is simply the experience factor vs the talent. Talent wins in the end, but experience gives the initial leg up.

 

Come on is right. So you would play a someone who is worse. Really? If Pace beats him out then Pace deserves to start. Williams can get game experience at other spots then shift over when he can beat Pace out. And if you seriously think that StC would beat Williams out, then Williams has no business touching the field at all. Obviously I disagree that StC is better than Williams. You dont put Williams as the starting LT, the most important position on the line, unless you have noone better.

 

 

Yes, that is my argument. I think we have already hurt our chances to build for the future, and adding Pace would basically lock out OL in the draft. At the end of your statement, you mention "whatever draft picks we make this year". Understand, that is 100% my point. IMHO, if we add Pace, we will not draft OL this year. If we do, it will be in the 6th/7th rounds, and lets be honest, that is little better than not drafting at all. You can argue that we would still look at OL if we add Pace, but that is a different argument than our current. I view Pace as a roadblock to the future.

As for the rest of your list, aside from Williams, come on. That is what you want to think of as our future? Beekman, fine, but the staff have felt all along he was a center and do not like him at OG, so lets consider him Kreutz' potential replacement. Omiyale as building for the future kills me. Why? Based on what. The guy has been in the league 4 years, playing on two teams, and spent half that time on the practice squad. Sorry, but as much hype as I read, it just does not seem like he is the shining star some make him out to be. He is far from a sure thing THIS YEAR, much less a player to build around. And Buenning? Come on. I swear if Metcalf were on the team still you would have listed him.

 

But according to you, all Omi needs is a little game time to "develop". His problem was he was on the "practice" squad can't couldn't develop properly. Back to reality. These OL that we have signed this off season are not a roadblock. Omi and Shaf are signed to deals that are easy to get out of should a better player emerge. Pace would do nothing but help our line with his experience and leadership.

 

Understand this. If I believed Angelo would still look at OL in the 2nd and/or 3rd round of the draft after signing Pace, I would be all for it, though I would look at Pace at RT. But my belief is we would not draft OL that high, and likely not until the end of the draft. To me, that is going along the same path Angelo has always followed w/ regard to the OL, and which has caused to us consider OL a top tier need basically every year under Angelo's tenure. I want to change that path. Simple as that.

 

This is the only part of this whole deal I agree with. I believe we still need to use a 2nd or 3rd on a OL and let him develop in practice.

 

However, signing Pace will make this team better and allow us to be more flexible in the draft. We need a WR, DE, and FS in addition to the line IMO.

[nfoligno]

I never said they were equal. In fact, players DO develope in practice. Its really surprising that you are arguing otherwise. If you have a chance to get a player like Pace, it can only help Williams. Working with and learning from a 7 time probowler will only help Williams. And get out of here with your condescending "Aren't you a coach?" crap. Go do it and then come back and tell me that you dont develop players in practice. So basically you are saying that we shouldn't sign Holt because that would take away from Bennetts development which was already severly hindered because we didn't toss him out there before he was ready last year. Astounding.

 

I honestly did not mean to be condescending. Just making sure my memory was right, and that it was you who is a coach.

 

I never said a player does not develop at all in practice. I do however believe the ability of a player to develop in practice is limited.

 

As for Holt, I have actually pointed out the very large difference already. Most positions on the team, your non-starters can still get significant playing time. Depth DBs can be used in nickel, dime and other packages. Other times you have a package where you like 4 LBs. DL rotates a ton, and your 3rd DE or DT may play nearly as many snaps as your starters. On offense, you often use 3 and 4 WR sets, and thus just because you are not a starter, does not mean you can see the field a significant amount of snaps.

 

The OL is different. You do not rotate your OL. You do not go w/ 4 on some downs and 6 on others. You have 5 set starters, and backups simply do not get in, except special teams. So no, I do not think adding Holt would prevent Bennett from developing.

 

Come on is right. So you would play a someone who is worse. Really? If Pace beats him out then Pace deserves to start. Williams can get game experience at other spots then shift over when he can beat Pace out. And if you seriously think that StC would beat Williams out, then Williams has no business touching the field at all. Obviously I disagree that StC is better than Williams. You dont put Williams as the starting LT, the most important position on the line, unless you have noone better.

 

Yes, sometimes you go w/ the lesser because his future is greater, but that future will never be realized until he develops, which is not going to happen sitting on the bench. Sorry, but if you look around the league, I think you will find that more often than not, your 1st round picks start, and they do not always earn that job.

 

A 1st round pick is a significant investment. If we go w/ what some of you are talking about, we would not get a chance to see that investment until maybe year 4, and even then, he would be an unknown. Sorry, but this is no way to run an orginization.

 

You just do not draft a player who you think is a franchise LT, only to replace him before giving him a chance.

 

But according to you, all Omi needs is a little game time to "develop".

 

Little different talking about a 1st round draft pick and a guy (where was he drafted) who has been in the NFL for 4 years, on two different teams.

 

His problem was he was on the "practice" squad can't couldn't develop properly.

 

I do not believe he was always on the practice squad, but simply wasn't good enough to stay off it long term.

 

Back to reality. These OL that we have signed this off season are not a roadblock. Omi and Shaf are signed to deals that are easy to get out of should a better player emerge. Pace would do nothing but help our line with his experience and leadership.

 

I agree Omi and Shaffer are not roadblocks. Neither are such a level that there is an issue if they do not start. Pace is another story. Pace does not join Chicago to be a backup.

 

This is the only part of this whole deal I agree with. I believe we still need to use a 2nd or 3rd on a OL and let him develop in practice.

 

Hey, we found something we agree on Honestly, to me there is a much greater argument for adding Pace to play RT. I still have the argument there against adding Pace as I want to build for the future on the OL, and see no chance of that if we add Pace (Angelo factor here), but the argument against Pace is significantly less at RT. Pace at RT allows Williams to still develop at LT, while you also now have Shaffer as depth. Heck, maybe Shaffer takes Garza's spot. This is a much better looking OL to me than if you put Williams on the bench. I still have issue w/ the draft aspect, but feel Pace at RT is a much more sound argument in general.

[Stinger226]

One. Columbo is a bogus example. His short tenure in Chicago was 100% due to injury, so I don't see how he is a good example for any side of the argument.

 

Two. Do I want to play a 1st round pick and see if he can play? Um, yes. That is called player development. The only team I know of that doesn't believe in this is Washington. Every other team in the league follows the idea of player development. Exactly how does an OL develop if he can't get on the field? Its one thing when you are talking about maybe a WR, or a DB, as they can play other packages w/o being a starter. But you do not rotate OL, and thus if you want to develop a 1st round pick, you have to play him.

 

You say we still don't know if Williams can play. Well, how can we know if we don't play him? Lets say we sign Pace, and he gives us one good season. Heck, lets say two. Meanwhile Williams is on the bench. When Pace is finished, what then. We STILL do not know if Williams can play.

 

I'm sorry. But when you use a #1 pick on a player, you need to play them. You have to see what they can do. At many/most positions, you can do this w/o actually making the player a starter, but OL is one of the very few units on the team where you do not rotate, and you try to maintain chemistry. So if you draft an OT in the 1st, you play him. If you don't plan to play him, then frankly, you should have never drafted him.

 

None of us know if Pace is still any good or if Williams will be good. Lets at least have options, if something doesnt work out.

 

I do not mind options, but in Pace, you also create a problem. He is simply not a backup. He is not going to sign to be a backup. On the other side of it, you have your LT drafted in the 1st round and considered your franchise LT. I would argue he too can not sit on the bench. Thus lies your problem if you have both. It's one thing when you have a player like St Clair. He can be inserted if Williams bombs, but at the same time, is not too good to sit on the bench. I think we would create that problem w/ Pace.

 

Now, if Pace is considered a RT for us, that is another story. Still not a fan as I think it precludes us from going OL in the draft, but that is totally a different argument.

I actually have a lot of respect for your opinion, my fear is Williams is shitty or get hurts again, then were rearranging the OL to accompidate the problem, but agree you need to play people to find out if they can play. I guess I am a little worried Williams could be a problem. Im gun shy.

[nfoligno]

Your worried? Do you realize that last year I was actually VERY down on the idea of drafting Williams. We took him as the 3rd OL, but I think I viewed him closer to 6th or so. Long and Clady were well ahead of him. I felt Albert was in the tier of Long and Clady, though I was in the minority. I also liked Otah and Cherilus.

 

One reason I didn't like Williams was the belief that he was a pure LT, which sounded good to a team in need of a LT, but also had greater boom/bust potential. Cherilus is different, as he was viewed as a RT/OG, but the rest were viewed as LT, w/ the ability to fairly easily slide to other, if not any other, position on the OL (aside from center). Thus, in the rest, there was a lesser chance of bust. If a player, like Albert, didn't workout at LT, we could play him at RT or inside, all of which I viewed as needs.

 

But in Williams, the belief was he was a pure LT. He was a finesse OT in colleged, and viewed as needing to add strength just to play his finesse style in the NFL. He was way behind the curve in power to move to RT, and questionable to move inside.

 

But we drafted him, and I think we need to do what we can to develop him.

 

Lets take the draft out of the equation for a moment. I have less issue adding Pace if we are looking at him to play RT. Then, we can start Pace at RT, and we would have Shaffer (not to mention Omiyale) capable of moving outside if there is a need. Or, we pass on Pace but add an OT early in the draft.

 

I agree there is need to add another OL, for depth if not to start. Where I disagree is in the idea of adding a veteran to simply replace Williams.

 

I actually have a lot of respect for your opinion, my fear is Williams is shitty or get hurts again, then were rearranging the OL to accompidate the problem, but agree you need to play people to find out if they can play. I guess I am a little worried Williams could be a problem. Im gun shy.