Kiper's 4 Round Mock

[bradjock]

I'd be happy with this:

 

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/ins...tory?id=4054695

 

It's almost been a month since Todd McShay and I released our dual mock drafts, and a lot has changed. We've seen most of the pro days for draft-eligible players that enable them to showcase their abilities in a comfortable environment, and we've gotten the results from some of the private workouts that some of the top players have to go through for teams.

 

Below is a look at how I see the first four rounds shaking out at this point in the predraft process.

 

 

 

1. Detroit Lions (Record: 0-16)

 

Matthew Stafford, QB, Georgia: Stafford is worthy of being the No. 1 overall pick, thanks to his overall skill set.

 

 

2. St. Louis Rams (2-14)

 

Jason Smith, OT, Baylor: The OT spot is strong at the top with Smith, a former tight end who is supremely athletic and exactly what you want in a left tackle: someone you can count on to protect the blind side of your quarterback.

 

 

3. Kansas City Chiefs (2-14)

 

Aaron Curry, OLB, Wake Forest: He's a complete OLB with great character and work ethic, which is why it was no surprise when he nailed his combine workout.

 

 

4. Seattle Seahawks (4-12)

 

Eugene Monroe, OT, Virginia: Monroe is just a shade below Jason Smith, in my opinion, but is a legit top-five pick.

 

 

5. Cleveland Browns (4-12)

 

Michael Crabtree, WR, Texas Tech: The stress fracture in his left foot shouldn't affect his draft status. He's a big-time player who should have a Larry Fitzgerald-type career in the NFL.

 

 

6. Cincinnati Bengals (4-11-1)

 

Andre Smith, OT, Alabama: Smith has to manage his weight in order to remain on the left side. If he doesn't, he's a mauler at right tackle who could really assist the running game and do the job at that spot in pass protection. Hopefully, he'll maximize his skills in the NFL by paying more attention to detail. If he doesn't, you're looking at a major bust.

 

 

7. Oakland Raiders (5-11)

 

Jeremy Maclin, WR, Missouri: Maclin will have to adjust to an NFL offense, but I really like his big-play capability and the fact that he's much more explosive with the pads on than his 4.46-second 40-yard dash at the combine would lead you to believe.

 

 

8. Jacksonville Jaguars (5-11)

 

Brian Orakpo, DE, Texas: I view Orakpo as a 4-3 end with the ability to also play on his feet in a 3-4 as an attacking outside linebacker. He is super-athletic and incredibly strong, but there is concern about his durability.

 

 

9. Green Bay Packers (6-10)

 

B.J. Raji, DT, Boston College: Raji is the top defensive tackle in this draft.

 

 

10. San Francisco 49ers (7-9)

 

Aaron Maybin, DE, Penn State: Maybin is another combo-type who is explosive out of the blocks and relentless in his pursuit of the quarterback.

 

 

11. Buffalo Bills (7-9)

 

Robert Ayers, DE, Tennessee: Ayers enjoyed a solid season in the SEC and then was one of the standouts during Senior Bowl week. He ran the 40 in 4.80 at the combine, though, which could give some teams pause.

 

 

12. Denver Broncos (8-8)

 

Tyson Jackson, DE, LSU: Jackson would be ideal in a 3-4, thanks to his ability to shift inside in passing situations.

 

 

13. Washington Redskins (8-8)

 

Mark Sanchez, QB, USC: Sanchez definitely is one of the top five to eight players available in this draft, and getting him here would be a bit of a steal, because had he returned to USC for his senior season, he likely would have been the No. 1 overall pick.

 

 

14. New Orleans Saints (8-8)

 

Chris Wells, RB, Ohio State: Wells is a nice fit for the Saints after they let running back Deuce McAllister go in the offseason. He could be a perfect complement to Reggie Bush.

 

 

15. Houston Texans (8-8)

 

Brian Cushing, OLB, USC: Cushing's ability to fit both inside and outside is the reason I've always viewed him as a surefire first-rounder.

 

 

16. San Diego Chargers (8-8)

 

Rey Maualuga, LB, USC: Maualuga is capable of becoming a quality "Mike" linebacker in the NFL but needs to use his hands better to ward off blocks and must be more consistent from week to week.

 

 

 

17. New York Jets (9-7)

 

 

Darrius Heyward-Bey, WR, Maryland: Heyward-Bey's awesome size-speed ratio should win out here and give the Jets the kind of receiver they need to open up the passing game.

 

 

 

18. Denver Broncos (from Chicago) (8-8)

 

Everette Brown, DE, Florida State: Brown could make an immediate impact in the Broncos' defense because of his strong skill set.

 

 

19. Tampa Bay Buccaneers (9-7)

 

Josh Freeman, QB, Kansas State: Freeman is an interesting prospect because he throws a great ball and has imposing size at nearly 6-foot-6 and 245 pounds. However, his inconsistent play puts him in the boom-or-bust category.

 

 

20. Detroit Lions (from Dallas) (0-16)

 

Michael Oher, OT, Mississippi: Oher is one of the more intriguing prospects in the draft. He's loaded with talent and can dominate the defense he's working against, but he also seems to have lapses in concentration when he struggles to keep his opponents at bay.

 

 

21. Philadelphia Eagles (9-6-1)

 

Knowshon Moreno, RB, Georgia: There isn't anything remotely close to the talent and depth at running back available in the draft last year, but Moreno is a good fit for the Eagles at this spot.

 

 

 

22. Minnesota Vikings (10-6)

 

Kenny Britt, WR, Rutgers: Britt has a ton of talent and is just beginning to scratch the surface of his potential.

 

 

 

23. New England Patriots (11-5)

 

Donald Brown, RB, Connecticut: Brown could end up being one of the more productive rookie backs in 2009 because of his all-around skills and tremendous character.

 

 

 

24. Atlanta Falcons (11-5)

 

Brandon Pettigrew, TE, Oklahoma State: Pettigrew remains the No. 1 tight end on the board and would be a help to young Falcons quarterback Matt Ryan.

 

 

25. Miami Dolphins (11-5)

 

Malcolm Jenkins, CB, Ohio State: Jenkins has all the qualities you look for, with the exception of top-flight recovery speed, which is an obvious concern. Even so, he's too good an overall performer to pass up in the middle of the first round.

 

 

26. Baltimore Ravens (11-5)

 

Vontae Davis, CB, Illinois: Davis is an impressive physical specimen, but he lacked consistency with the Illini, not always performing at the elite level you would expect from a player with his natural talent and ability. He'll be a gamble.

 

 

27. Indianapolis Colts (12-4)

 

Peria Jerry, DT, Mississippi: Jerry is a very underrated prospect, and would be a good fit in the Indianapolis scheme.

 

 

28. Philadelphia Eagles (from 12-4 CAR) (9-6-1)

 

Eben Britton, OT, Arizona: Britton could be a good fit for the Eagles' offensive line, although I would have liked to see him return for his senior year.

 

 

29. New York Giants (12-4)

 

Hakeem Nicks, WR, North Carolina: Nicks won't wow you in a workout, but on game day he makes the tough catches and is the type of player who wants the ball thrown his way in clutch situations.

 

 

30. Tennessee Titans (13-3)

 

Percy Harvin, WR, Florida: Harvin reminds me of the Reggie Bush we now see with the Saints. You can utilize Harvin in a number of ways, and, like Bush, he's a scoreboard-changer. However, he also carries the same durability concerns as Bush.

 

 

31. Arizona Cardinals (9-7)

 

Larry English, LB, Northern Illinois: English set the all-time sack record at Northern Illinois, and could be an impact player in Arizona.

 

 

32. Pittsburgh Steelers (12-4)

 

Eric Wood, C, Louisville: Wood has been a player on the rise of late, and with his size and skills he could find himself a Steeler for a very long time.

 

 

Second round

33. Detroit Lions: James Laurinaitis, LB, Ohio St.

 

 

34. New England Patriots (from KC) : Connor Barwin, DE/LB, Cincinnati

 

 

35. St. Louis Rams: Darius Butler, CB, Connecticut

 

 

36. Cleveland Browns: Clay Matthews, LB, USC

 

 

37. Seattle Seahawks: William Moore, S, Missouri

 

 

38. Cincinnati Bengals: Alex Mack, C, California

 

 

39. Jacksonville Jaguars: Brian Robiskie, WR, Ohio St.

 

 

40. Oakland Raiders: Phil Loadholt, OT, Oklahoma

 

 

41. Green Bay Packers: William Beatty, OT, Connecticut

 

 

42. Buffalo Bills: Jared Cook, TE, South Carolina

 

 

43. San Francisco 49ers: Alphonso Smith, CB, Wake Forest

 

 

44. Miami Dolphins (from Washington): Jarron Gilbert, DL, San Jose St.

 

 

45. New York Giants (from New Orleans): Shawn Nelson, TE, So. Mississippi

 

 

46. Houston Texans: Ziggy Hood, DT, Missouri

 

 

47. New England Patriots (from San Diego): Sean Smith, CB, Utah

 

 

48. Denver Broncos: Ron Brace, DT, Boston College

 

 

49. Chicago Bears: Mohamed Massaquoi, WR, Georgia

 

 

50. Cleveland Browns (from Tampa Bay): LeSean McCoy, RB, Pittsburgh

 

 

51. Dallas Cowboys: Louis Delmas, S, Western Michigan

 

 

52. New York Jets: Andre Brown, RB, North Carolina St.

 

 

53. Philadelphia Eagles: Michael Johnson, DE, Georgia Tech

 

 

54. Minnesota Vikings: Max Unger, C, Oregon

 

 

55. Atlanta Falcons: Sherrod Martin, DB, Troy

 

 

56. Miami Dolphins: Clint Sintim, LB, Virginia

 

 

57. Baltimore Ravens: Juaquin Iglesias, WR, Oklahoma

 

 

58. New England Patriots: Pat White, WR, West Virginia

 

 

59. Carolina Panthers: Roy Miller, DT, Texas

 

 

60. New York Giants: Kaluka Maiava, LB, USC

 

 

61. Indianapolis Colts: Derrick Williams, WR, Penn St.

 

 

62. Tennessee Titans: D.J. Moore, CB, Vanderbilt

 

 

63. Arizona Cardinals: Shonn Greene, RB, Iowa

 

 

64. Pittsburgh Steelers: Jairus Byrd, CB, Oregon

Third round

 

 

65. Detroit: Patrick Chung, S, Oregon

 

 

66. St. Louis : Lawrence Sidbury, DE, Richmond

 

 

67. Kansas City: Andy Levitre, OL, Oregon St.

 

 

68. Seattle : Donald Washington, CB, Ohio St.

 

 

69. Dallas (from Cleveland): Ramses Barden, WR, Cal Poly

 

 

70. Cincinnati: Paul Kruger, DE, Utah

 

 

71. Oakland: Rashad Johnson, S, Alabama

 

 

72. Jacksonville: Bradley Fletcher, CB, Iowa

 

 

73. Green Bay: Cody Brown, LB, Connecticut

 

 

74. San Francisco: Darcel McBath, S, Texas Tech

 

 

75. Buffalo: T.J. Lang, OL, Eastern Michigan

 

 

76. New York Jets (from New Orleans): Richard Quinn, TE, North Carolina

 

 

 

77. Houston Texans: Keenan Lewis, CB, Oregon St.

 

 

78. San Diego: Jamon Meredith, OL, South Carolina

 

 

79. Denver: Asher Allen, CB, Georgia

 

 

80. Washington: Kyle Moore, DE, USC

 

 

81. Tampa Bay: Alex Magee , DT, Purdue

 

 

82. Detroit (from Dallas): Fili Moala, DT, USC

 

 

83. Green Bay (from New York Jets): Tony Fiammetta, FB, Syracuse

 

 

84. Denver (from Chicago): Louis Murphy, WR, Florida

 

 

85. Philadelphia: Deon Butler, WR, Penn St.

 

 

86. Minnesota: Duke Robinson, OG, Oklahoma

 

 

87. Miami: Cedric Peerman, RB, Virginia

 

 

88. Baltimore : Anthony Hill, TE, North Carolina St.

 

 

89. New England: Cornelius Ingram, TE, Florida

 

 

90. Atlanta: Antoine Caldwell, C, Alabama

 

 

91. New York Giants: Tyronne Green, OG, Auburn

 

 

92. Indianapolis : Jason Phillips, LB, TCU

 

 

93. Carolina: Kraig Urbik, OG, Wisconsin

 

 

94. Tennessee: Marcus Freeman, LB, Ohio St.

 

 

95. Arizona: Chase Coffman, TE, Missouri

 

 

96. Pittsburgh: Quinten Lawrence, WR, McNeese St.

 

 

97. New England (comp selection): Scott McKillop, LB, Pittsburgh

 

 

98. Cincinnati (comp selection): Rashad Jennings, RB, Liberty

 

 

99. Chicago (comp selection): Chris Clemons, S, Clemson

 

 

100. New York Giants (comp selection): Glen Coffee, RB, Alabama

 

 

Fourth round

 

 

101. Dallas (from Detroit): Ladarius Webb, DB, Nicholls St.

 

 

102. Kansas City : Dannell Ellerbe, LB, Georgia

 

 

103. St. Louis: Johnny Knox, WR, Abilene Christian

 

 

104. Cleveland : Coye Francies, CB, San Jose St.

 

 

105. Seattle: James Davis, RB, Clemson

 

 

106. Cincinnati: Quinn Johnson, FB, LSU

 

 

107. Jacksonville: Rhett Bomar, QB, Sam Houston St.

 

 

108. Miami (from Oakland): Brandon Tate, WR, North Carolina

 

 

109. Green Bay: Zack Follett, LB, California

 

 

110. Buffalo: Michael Hamlin, S, Clemson

 

 

111. San Francisco: Mike Goodson, RB, Texas A&M

 

 

112. Houston: David Veikune, DE, Hawaii

 

 

113. San Diego: Emanuel Cook, S, South Carolina

 

 

114. Denver: Chip Vaughn, S, Wake Forest

 

 

115. New York Jets (from Washington): Mitch King, DL, Iowa

 

 

116. New Orleans: Tyrone McKenzie, LB, South Florida

 

 

117. Dallas: Herman Johnson, OG, LSU

 

 

118. New Orleans (from N.Y. Jets): A.Q. Shipley, C, Penn St.

 

 

119. Chicago: Christopher Owens, CB, San Jose St.

 

 

120. Tampa Bay: Austin Collie, WR, BYU

 

 

121. Philadelphia: James Casey, TE, Rice

 

 

122. Houston (from Minnesota): Mike Thomas, WR, Arizona

 

 

123. Baltimore: Darry Beckwith, LB, LSU

 

 

124. New England: Dan Gay, OT, Baylor

 

 

125. Atlanta: Brandon Gibson, WR, Washington St.

 

 

126. Oakland (from Miami): Gerald Cadogan, OT, Penn St.

 

 

127. Indianapolis: Javon Ringer, RB, Michigan St.

 

 

128. Carolina : Mike Wallace, WR, Mississippi

 

 

129. New York Giants: Gregory Toler, CB, St. Paul's

 

 

130. Tennessee: Louis Vasquez, OG, Texas Tech

 

 

131. Arizona: Corvey Irvin, DT, Georgia

 

 

132. Pittsburgh: Sen'Derrick Marks, DL, Auburn

 

 

133. San Diego (comp selection): Ellis Lankster, CB, West Virginia

 

 

134. San Diego (comp selection): Dorell Scott, DT, Clemson

 

 

135. Tennessee (comp selection): Terrance Taylor, DT, Michigan

 

 

136. Indianapolis (comp selection): Jonathan Casillas, LB, Wisconsin

[Mongo3451]

If Kiper is right...

 

Oher and Britton would have been ours in the 1st

All the good WR's are taken and we draft another Mohammed

Duke Robinson would have been there for our 3rd

 

Damn Cutler trade! Just kidding. LOL I'm still beside myself and actually can't argue with any of the picks.

[Stinger226]

If Kiper is right...

 

Oher and Britton would have been ours in the 1st

All the good WR's are taken and we draft another Mohammed

Duke Robinson would have been there for our 3rd

 

Damn Cutler trade! Just kidding. LOL I'm still beside myself and actually can't argue with any of the picks.

I would see us taking a DE with the 4th round, if any left we have rated high on our board instead of CB, but maybe that is a value pick.

[jason]

I'm not a big fan of this draft for the Bears. If, indeed, the secondary is the primary concern, and Massoquai is left at WR, then I think the Bears should go safety in round 2. If the WRs chips fall like that, then it's not great to reach like that. Hell, if the Bears had to grab someone from the SEC, I'd rather have Rashad Johnson from Bama.

[Stinger226]

I'm not a big fan of this draft for the Bears. If, indeed, the secondary is the primary concern, and Massoquai is left at WR, then I think the Bears should go safety in round 2. If the WRs chips fall like that, then it's not great to reach like that. Hell, if the Bears had to grab someone from the SEC, I'd rather have Rashad Johnson from Bama.

I considered Massoquai a reach in the 3rd round but several informed people have him going in the 2nd round now, so he may no longer be considered a reach there. I want RJ from Bama also, but think he may not be there. Kiper is not at the top of my look for insight lists.

[HoofHearted]

I considered Massoquai a reach in the 3rd round but several informed people have him going in the 2nd round now, so he may no longer be considered a reach there. I want RJ from Bama also, but think he may not be there. Kiper is not at the top of my look for insight lists.

 

 

No, you're right. There are only 8 WRs worth a first day pick this year, and he isn't one of them. If the top 7 aren't there at 49, then we should be looking elsewhere without a doubt, IMO, because anyone else would be a major reach based on BPA talent. Heck, I'd rather have Sherrod Martin (provided Shad is gone) every day of the week over Mass there, and I don't consider him solid value at 49. I would even rather grab Sidbury there, and again, I don't consider him solid value at all at 49. Those are just a couple examples of how little I value Mass. Kiper may be responsible for making the draft the event that it is today, but his mocks aren't even good at gauging players slot value anymore.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

Isn't Clemons a SS? I'll pass.

[bradjock]

Isn't Clemons a SS? I'll pass.

 

As per Lindy's Draft Magazine, Chris Clemons is a free safety, mainly because he's very lanky and doesn't have much bulk. That's the reason they projected that he wouldn't go until the 5th round.

 

With Dannieal Manning moving to nickel-back full time, after WR, FS is our weakest position.

[bradjock]

No, you're right. There are only 8 WRs worth a first day pick this year, and he isn't one of them. If the top 7 aren't there at 49, then we should be looking elsewhere without a doubt, IMO, because anyone else would be a major reach based on BPA talent.

 

Huh? First off, you say there are only 8 WR's worth a first day pick . . . with this mock, Massaquoi is #8. If there are 8 who are worth it, why wouldn't we take the 8th one???

 

Secondly, Kiper has 9 WR's going in the first 2 rounds. NFLdraftcountdown has 9 WR's going in the first 2 rounds. More importantly, Kiper has 15 WR's being taken in the first 3 rounds. That's very consistent with everything else I've read.

 

Considering WR is our greatest need, isn't it essential we grab one at #49?

 

Heck, I'd rather have Sherrod Martin (provided Shad is gone) every day of the week over Mass there, and I don't consider him solid value at 49. I would even rather grab Sidbury there, and again, I don't consider him solid value at all at 49. Those are just a couple examples of how little I value Mass. Kiper may be responsible for making the draft the event that it is today, but his mocks aren't even good at gauging players slot value anymore.

 

What the hell? Will Sherrod Martin even be drafted?

 

EVERY expert agrees that Massaquoi will likely be a 2nd round pick, 4th round at the absolute latest.

[bradjock]

If Kiper is right...

 

Oher and Britton would have been ours in the 1st

 

Damn good point. Is there any doubt in your mind we'd have taken a OT in round 1 if we still had the pick? Especially when you consider:

1. We had no interest in Pace until the Cutler talks heated up.

2. We signed Pace an hour after we traded for Cutler.

 

That tells me, we planned on taking an OT all along, but that plan changed as soon as we traded away our draft pick.

 

All the good WR's are taken and we draft another Mohammed

 

We may not take Massaquoi, but I'm convinced there are WR's we REALLY like who we think will be available in round two. This reminds me of last year when we did nothing with our OT position, since we knew a guy like Chris Williams would be available (and if he wasn't, Brandon Albert and a couple other guys would have been.)

 

Same thing with our RB position last year. My guess is if Forte had been gone, we'd have taken Kevin Smith. Not bad.

 

We're going to take the best WR available at #49 . . . now it's just a matter of who that might be.

 

Duke Robinson would have been there for our 3rd

 

Duke's stock is dropping. After WR, I think we have enough flexibility where we can truly go for best player available.

 

Damn Cutler trade! Just kidding. LOL I'm still beside myself and actually can't argue with any of the picks.

 

Hell yes!!! And whatever offensive player we draft will be much better because of Cutler.

[bradjock]

I'm not a big fan of this draft for the Bears. If, indeed, the secondary is the primary concern, and Massoquai is left at WR, then I think the Bears should go safety in round 2. If the WRs chips fall like that, then it's not great to reach like that. Hell, if the Bears had to grab someone from the SEC, I'd rather have Rashad Johnson from Bama.

 

On one hand, I'd love to see us draft a safety, especially when we might have our first crack at one.

 

On the other hand, haven't we committed ourselves to drafting a WR? According to Kiper's mock, we'd be taking the 8th best WR. If we wait until our next pick at #99, they'll have been 15 WR's taken. What Kiper is saying is comparable to what everyone else is saying.

 

While our safety position sucks, we added Josh Bullocks & Earl Glenn, and it looks like we're considering moving Zack Bowman to FS.

 

At WR we have Rashied, Hester, Bennett, and a couple of guys who won't be in the NFL next year. Yikes.

 

After WR, we need to go "best player available" with every pick. We have lots of flexibility. But it'd be crazy not to take a WR at #49.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

What the hell? Will Sherrod Martin even be drafted?

 

EVERY expert agrees that Massaquoi will likely be a 2nd round pick, 4th round at the absolute latest.

Yeah, could be in round 3 actually.

[HoofHearted]

Huh? First off, you say there are only 8 WR's worth a first day pick . . . with this mock, Massaquoi is #8. If there are 8 who are worth it, why wouldn't we take the 8th one???

 

Secondly, Kiper has 9 WR's going in the first 2 rounds. NFLdraftcountdown has 9 WR's going in the first 2 rounds. More importantly, Kiper has 15 WR's being taken in the first 3 rounds. That's very consistent with everything else I've read.

 

Considering WR is our greatest need, isn't it essential we grab one at #49?

 

 

What the hell? Will Sherrod Martin even be drafted?

 

EVERY expert agrees that Massaquoi will likely be a 2nd round pick, 4th round at the absolute latest.

 

I said there are only eight WRs worth first day picks, and Mass IS NOT one of them, IMHO. Just because Kiper's whack -ass draft says he is the eighth guy off the board doesn't mean it is fact. The experts say there will be nine drafted, that's fine(big friggin whoop I say eight), there probably will be because of teams reaching on the player they want, it doesn't change the fact that from all the college football I watched (a lot) that I don't see a guy with a first day grade on the field. Why is it essential when that 8th or 9th best WR isn't nearly as good a value as say that second or third FS. It's not about drafting for need and just grabbing a guy there for the sake of grabbing him. It's about calculating value and grabbing THE RIGHT GUY in the right slot at the right position, by blending need/BPA. Just because we need a WR, doesn't mean we need to grab a WR at 49, especially not if his value isn't worth that pick. Mass' value, is not even close to worth it, IMO. BTW, saying WR is our biggest need is subjective and debatable. I personally think getting a quality FS prospect from the draft is a bigger need because I think our WR group has a chance to be at least adequate whereas our FS group is barfalicious.

 

Yes, Sherrod Martin WILL get drafted (very likely inside of the first three rounds), and the fact that you don't know that he is a top 10 CB OR FS prospect in this draft shows how little you know about this draft and college football. It really seems that you are just going off The Hair's draft and only know the big school guys. I really don't need to continue on after this display of your draft knowledge, but I will anyway.

 

 

Every expert, huh? I see him listed as Gil Brandt's 87's best prospect, the experts at draftcountdown have him as the 127th best overall, cds has him going at 94 and is out of their top 100, nfldc has him as the 11 WR with a third round grade, walterfootball doesn't even have him in their five round mock (which admittedly blows). I could go on and on and on with examples of people and experts who don't see him as worth the 49 pick. Why don't you show me the places who think he is worth the 49 pick let alone second rounder outside of Kiper? Like I said, The Hair's mocks aren't even worth looking at as a gauge of slot value anymore. He's slow, struggled to get separation against mediocre college CBs, and was a big time butterfingers before his senior year.

 

 

Like I already said, just because we need a WR, doesn;t mean we need to grab one at 49, especially one who isn't worth the pick. The opportunity cost of grabbing Mass there over the dozens of guys myself and almost everyone else consider to be better players doesn't add up.

[Stinger226]

I said there are only eight WRs worth first day picks, and Mass IS NOT one of them, IMHO. Just because Kiper's whack -ass draft says he is the eighth guy off the board doesn't mean it is fact. The experts say there will be nine drafted, that's fine(big friggin whoop I say eight), there probably will be because of teams reaching on the player they want, it doesn't change the fact that from all the college football I watched (a lot) that I don't see a guy with a first day grade on the field. Why is it essential when that 8th or 9th best WR isn't nearly as good a value as say that second or third FS. It's not about drafting for need and just grabbing a guy there for the sake of grabbing him. It's about calculating value and grabbing THE RIGHT GUY in the right slot at the right position, by blending need/BPA. Just because we need a WR, doesn't mean we need to grab a WR at 49, especially not if his value isn't worth that pick. Mass' value, is not even close to worth it, IMO. BTW, saying WR is our biggest need is subjective and debatable. I personally think getting a quality FS prospect from the draft is a bigger need because I think our WR group has a chance to be at least adequate whereas our FS group is barfalicious.

 

Yes, Sherrod Martin WILL get drafted (very likely inside of the first three rounds), and the fact that you don't know that he is a top 10 CB OR FS prospect in this draft shows how little you know about this draft and college football. It really seems that you are just going off The Hair's draft and only know the big school guys. I really don't need to continue on after this display of your draft knowledge, but I will anyway.

 

 

Every expert, huh? I see him listed as Gil Brandt's 87's best prospect, the experts at draftcountdown have him as the 127th best overall, cds has him going at 94 and is out of their top 100, nfldc has him as the 11 WR with a third round grade, walterfootball doesn't even have him in their five round mock (which admittedly blows). I could go on and on and on with examples of people and experts who don't see him as worth the 49 pick. Why don't you show me the places who think he is worth the 49 pick let alone second rounder outside of Kiper? Like I said, The Hair's mocks aren't even worth looking at as a gauge of slot value anymore. He's slow, struggled to get separation against mediocre college CBs, and was a big time butterfingers before his senior year.

 

 

Like I already said, just because we need a WR, doesn;t mean we need to grab one at 49, especially one who isn't worth the pick. The opportunity cost of grabbing Mass there over the dozens of guys myself and almost everyone else consider to be better players doesn't add up.

I wouldnt say your a expert on all of this, as for people that do it for a living cant get it right. We all have opinions and unfortunately it would take a couple of years to prove any of us right. I am not pushing for Mass but there are a few that think he will be a 2nd rounder. PFW has him as the 7th WR and the 49th best player off the big board. I am not saying they are smarter than you but they definitly have more information to go by there predictions than you do. They say the 2 most difficult things for a rookie WR to adjust to is the physicalness of the NFL and the mental adjustment of the game. He may very well be able to handle that, who knows. I do know you and I dont. So the point is get off your high horse, unless your job is a pro scout then I will shut up.

[HoofHearted]

I wouldnt say your a expert on all of this, as for people that do it for a living cant get it right. We all have opinions and unfortunately it would take a couple of years to prove any of us right. I am not pushing for Mass but there are a few that think he will be a 2nd rounder. PFW has him as the 7th WR and the 49th best player off the big board. I am not saying they are smarter than you but they definitly have more information to go by there predictions than you do. They say the 2 most difficult things for a rookie WR to adjust to is the physicalness of the NFL and the mental adjustment of the game. He may very well be able to handle that, who knows. I do know you and I dont. So the point is get off your high horse, unless your job is a pro scout then I will shut up.

 

When did I get all high and mighty? When did I call myself an expert? Seriously, am I coming off as a jackass who needs to be treated as such? I am saying that there are 7 WRs I would take for our pick, and 8 who should go in the first day, and that mass is not one of them IMHO. I am saying that compared to the value of the 2/3 FS in the draft, Mass's value even dives further. I am saying that Mass has one good year under his belt, and still struggled to get separation. I am saying that I think the 2/3 FS is a better pick for our team there than the 8th best WR, who I still don't consider to be Mass (Iglesias in case you care).

 

So get off your high horse and read my comments as they were written, by a guy who watches a ton of college football and actually knows these prospects casting an educated opinion, especially to the guy calling me out who doesn't even know who Sherrod Martin is. The same guy who thinks it is a must to grab a WR at 49 regardless, and the same guy who claimed every expert in the world thinks Mass is worth a 2nd. Kiper's mock and opinions have proved to be slightly more valuable than the paper they were written on over the past five years. This is the same guy who said Mike Williams would without a doubt be the best player to come out of the 05' draft ten years down the road?

 

You're right, we can't tell the future, but we can base a logical opinion on these players as they are based on what they have done on the field, and Mass hasn't ever put the impression of being a first day WR in my head based on what he has done thus far.

[Stinger226]

When did I get all high and mighty? When did I call myself an expert? Seriously, am I coming off as a jackass who needs to be treated as such? I am saying that there are 7 WRs I would take for our pick, and 8 who should go in the first day, and that mass is not one of them IMHO. I am saying that compared to the value of the 2/3 FS in the draft, Mass's value even dives further. I am saying that Mass has one good year under his belt, and still struggled to get separation. I am saying that I think the 2/3 FS is a better pick for our team there than the 8th best WR, who I still don't consider to be Mass (Iglesias in case you care).

 

So get off your high horse and read my comments as they were written, by a guy who watches a ton of college football and actually knows these prospects casting an educated opinion, especially to the guy calling me out who doesn't even know who Sherrod Martin is. The same guy who thinks it is a must to grab a WR at 49 regardless, and the same guy who claimed every expert in the world thinks Mass is worth a 2nd. Kiper's mock and opinions have proved to be slightly more valuable than the paper they were written on over the past five years. This is the same guy who said Mike Williams would without a doubt be the best player to come out of the 05' draft ten years down the road?

 

You're right, we can't tell the future, but we can base a logical opinion on these players as they are based on what they have done on the field, and Mass hasn't ever put the impression of being a first day WR in my head based on what he has done thus far.

I only refered to the high horse statement of telling somebody they dont know what there talking about. Depending on what you read you gain lots of different information. I agree with most of your statements. Draft Tek has Martin as the 5th best FS and 84th overall player. PFW doent have him listed in the top ten FSs, or among there 150 best players. GBN has him as the the 5th best FS and the 100th best player. Mass and Martin are both reachs at that point of the draft. IMO I think we should take the highest rated player on the board and hope to hell he is a FS or WR or maybe a DE. Or close to there supposed slot.

[HoofHearted]

I only refered to the high horse statement of telling somebody they dont know what there talking about. Depending on what you read you gain lots of different information. I agree with most of your statements. Draft Tek has Martin as the 5th best FS and 84th overall player. PFW doent have him listed in the top ten FSs, or among there 150 best players. GBN has him as the the 5th best FS and the 100th best player. Mass and Martin are both reachs at that point of the draft. IMO I think we should take the highest rated player on the board and hope to hell he is a FS or WR or maybe a DE. Or close to there supposed slot.

 

Like I said, I don't think Martin is worth a second, it was just to point out how low I value Mass. Our pick should be BPA/need blend, and you're right we shuld just hope it comes down to WR/FS there. I just don't think the top 7 WRs get there, and after them I see a slew of guys who should be third rounders and one late second in Iglesias. Here's my problem with Mass. Ask any Bulldogs fan, and they will tell you Mass is largely inconsistent in every way possible. They will also tell you he had four monster games that made up more than half of his yards, and that disappeared pretty much completely in the rest of the games. Those four huge games were all against horrible CBs, and no, he didn't go up against Haden or Lindley, Green did (just like he went up against most teams #1 cb all year because he was the far more consistent game-breaker at WR for the dogs). Speaking of Green, it wasn't until the frosh superstud arrived to play accross from him that Mass did anything worth noting. His first three years were totally uneventful, and marred by bad drops. What about his college resume tells people he is worth a first day pick other than four huge games against bad 1-1 comp with a phenom throwing him the ball?

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

I like to think of myself as a pretty knowledgable guy when it comes to the draft, but nobody knows it all. Massaqoui hasn't been anything great during his career but most of this hype all comes from pre-draft workouts. Just look at Forte- sure, his career was productive, but he was a 3rd or 4th before his great workouts. If the Bears feel Massaqoui is worthy at 49, so be it. I know plenty of people, whether it was on here or just friends, who loved the idea of taking Forte just not that early. Now, of course it's a good pick. Hopefully, if we do take MM, he's a good player for our team.

[bradjock]

Like I said, I don't think Martin is worth a second, it was just to point out how low I value Mass. Our pick should be BPA/need blend, and you're right we shuld just hope it comes down to WR/FS there. I just don't think the top 7 WRs get there, and after them I see a slew of guys who should be third rounders and one late second in Iglesias. Here's my problem with Mass. Ask any Bulldogs fan, and they will tell you Mass is largely inconsistent in every way possible. They will also tell you he had four monster games that made up more than half of his yards, and that disappeared pretty much completely in the rest of the games. Those four huge games were all against horrible CBs, and no, he didn't go up against Haden or Lindley, Green did (just like he went up against most teams #1 cb all year because he was the far more consistent game-breaker at WR for the dogs). Speaking of Green, it wasn't until the frosh superstud arrived to play accross from him that Mass did anything worth noting. His first three years were totally uneventful, and marred by bad drops. What about his college resume tells people he is worth a first day pick other than four huge games against bad 1-1 comp with a phenom throwing him the ball?

 

But most of what you're saying is based on what you saw from watching college football, which in many cases doesn't mean a damn thing. Did you think Devin Hester should have been a 2nd round draft pick??? Based on what he did in college, there's no way in hell he should have been.

 

Mark Bradley's a decent WR when healthy, and he didn't even play WR in college. How's he a 2nd round pick?

 

Hell, Tim Tebow should be the #1 overall draft pick . . . except he wouldn't be anywhere near that which is why he opted to stay in college another year.

 

Kiper's wrong way more then he's right, but his full time job is to analyze incoming football players and he's done this for years. I take in what he says as being an interesting point of view, no more, no less.

 

All I give a damn about is that we take the best WR available, mainly because we're desperate at that position. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised is we drafted Louis Murphy at #49. Not because he's a great WR, but because he has great size & speed. A player like Murphy entering the NFL doesn't translate into your experiences of sitting on your butt and watching college football.

['TD']

I like to think of myself as a pretty knowledgable guy when it comes to the draft, but nobody knows it all. Massaqoui hasn't been anything great during his career but most of this hype all comes from pre-draft workouts. Just look at Forte- sure, his career was productive, but he was a 3rd or 4th before his great workouts. If the Bears feel Massaqoui is worthy at 49, so be it. I know plenty of people, whether it was on here or just friends, who loved the idea of taking Forte just not that early. Now, of course it's a good pick. Hopefully, if we do take MM, he's a good player for our team.

 

Yea, Forte ended up being an awesome pick. I'll admit I was one of the people on here that just thought the pick was early, although I was really wanting him in the 3rd.

[HoofHearted]

But most of what you're saying is based on what you saw from watching college football, which in many cases doesn't mean a damn thing. Did you think Devin Hester should have been a 2nd round draft pick??? Based on what he did in college, there's no way in hell he should have been.

 

Mark Bradley's a decent WR when healthy, and he didn't even play WR in college. How's he a 2nd round pick?

 

Hell, Tim Tebow should be the #1 overall draft pick . . . except he wouldn't be anywhere near that which is why he opted to stay in college another year.

 

Kiper's wrong way more then he's right, but his full time job is to analyze incoming football players and he's done this for years. I take in what he says as being an interesting point of view, no more, no less.

 

All I give a damn about is that we take the best WR available, mainly because we're desperate at that position. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised is we drafted Louis Murphy at #49. Not because he's a great WR, but because he has great size & speed. A player like Murphy entering the NFL doesn't translate into your experiences of sitting on your butt and watching college football.

 

Louis Murphy, yay! Another guy who loves to drop passes and had minimal success in a fantastic system. More often than not, those workout warriors with limited success in college end up doing dick in the NFL. Heck, we already have one on our team (Aromashodu).

 

Tebow would be the #1 if you like QBs who can't read the field, or play as a pocket passer.

 

And Bradley is now a Chief who didn't do much of anything for us (and this is coming from a guy who hates that we cut him). Some guys get picked because of their size/speed measurables, but you have to do something special in college to get picked that early. His tape around the injury wasn't awesome, but it wasn't bad at all, and unlike Mark, Mass isn't a workout warrior.

 

I loved Devin coming out of college. The guy never found a spot, but he was dynamic and played well in small stints everywhere his coach put him, all while being jerked around from position to position. Some guys just ooze that game breaking football player feel while being phenomenal athletes, and to me, he was that guy from the second he stepped on the field in Miami. I loved it how the people here all hated that pick, too, all the while jizzing themselves over Sinorice Moss. When you get a shot at those dynamite guys who could explode with another year in college, you take the shot.

[azbearsfan]

Louis Murphy, yay! Another guy who loves to drop passes and had minimal success in a fantastic system. More often than not, those workout warriors with limited success in college end up doing dick in the NFL. Heck, we already have one on our team (Aromashodu).

 

Tebow would be the #1 if you like QBs who can't read the field, or play as a pocket passer.

 

And Bradley is now a Chief who didn't do much of anything for us (and this is coming from a guy who hates that we cut him). Some guys get picked because of their size/speed measurables, but you have to do something special in college to get picked that early. His tape around the injury wasn't awesome, but it wasn't bad at all, and unlike Mark, Mass isn't a workout warrior.

 

I loved Devin coming out of college. The guy never found a spot, but he was dynamic and played well in small stints everywhere his coach put him, all while being jerked around from position to position. Some guys just ooze that game breaking football player feel while being phenomenal athletes, and to me, he was that guy from the second he stepped on the field in Miami. I loved it how the people here all hated that pick, too, all the while jizzing themselves over Sinorice Moss. When you get a shot at those dynamite guys who could explode with another year in college, you take the shot.

 

 

Well, I'm a big time Miami fan. I follow the team just as hard as I do the Bears. You make it seem Hester could have been great is the coaches didn't "jerk him around". What actually happened, was that he was not able to excel at any one position, for the most part, because he could not handle learning the positions. He could not play WR because he dropped balls and could not play the playbook. He could not play DB because by the time he thought through were to be, he was toast. They even tried him at RB but found he gift did not translate well 5-7 yards from the los. The only place he was a game breaker was on special teams.

 

And actually, I loved the pick , and said so on the old boards when people were killing JA. I knew he would be something we had never seen before in the return game. Now I am keeping my fingers crossed that he can excel at WR.

 

Predicting the draft is a fools game. Everyone thinks they can do it, from Mel Kiper to Bob the pool boy. It takes alot of scouting and alot of luck. I choose to trust the ones who have the time and resources to go out and see the players first hand. And even they are wrong some of the time.

[HoofHearted]

Well, I'm a big time Miami fan. I follow the team just as hard as I do the Bears. You make it seem Hester could have been great is the coaches didn't "jerk him around". What actually happened, was that he was not able to excel at any one position, for the most part, because he could not handle learning the positions. He could not play WR because he dropped balls and could not play the playbook. He could not play DB because by the time he thought through were to be, he was toast. They even tried him at RB but found he gift did not translate well 5-7 yards from the los. The only place he was a game breaker was on special teams.

 

And actually, I loved the pick , and said so on the old boards when people were killing JA. I knew he would be something we had never seen before in the return game. Now I am keeping my fingers crossed that he can excel at WR.

 

Predicting the draft is a fools game. Everyone thinks they can do it, from Mel Kiper to Bob the pool boy. It takes alot of scouting and alot of luck. I choose to trust the ones who have the time and resources to go out and see the players first hand. And even they are wrong some of the time.

 

That's all pretty much the truth. However the thing with Hester that makes me say they jerked him around was how he was handled from the get-go. it's obvious he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but even so, you let a guy with his talent get more than one season to learn the WR position if you intend to use and develop him as a positional player. Miami didn't. He had a hard time learning the position, and almost immediately pulled him away and just stuck him on the bench to sit until he could return kicks or run the occasional go-route. Next Spring they figure, "maybe he'll be better at CB since he can just learn technique, play M2M and use his instincts out there." Well, not a bad idea really, because he was pretty good there with 4 picks while playing largely as limited liability a NB. Even with him showing some signs of success and ability to stick there, they decided to toss him at RB because they felt they weren't using his talent enough, and thus began the "slash" experiment with him. Even then, not so bad because all he had to do was run the stretch and toss plays around the corner and make people miss. Then came 05' Spring and the staff has him running at WR again to go along with and CB and HB in drills, again, not even once did they give him a full year to concentrate on one spot. Yes, his ability to learn positions played a big factor in it, but how exactly does taking his concentration away from one position maximize a players ability to get on the field and make an impact to their highest potential? I honestly think Miami was too worried about using him in any way possible because they wanted his talent out on the field, and they completely neglected to "dig in" and actually teach the kid a position. It was a winning program that wanted to win, and it's obvious they felt getting him on the field was a must if they were going to be successful, but doing what's best for the program and what's best for the player got skewed with such a talented kid, and I honestly can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I knew I would only have him for so long (or short).

[bowlingtwig]

That's all pretty much the truth. However the thing with Hester that makes me say they jerked him around was how he was handled from the get-go. it's obvious he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but even so, you let a guy with his talent get more than one season to learn the WR position if you intend to use and develop him as a positional player. Miami didn't. He had a hard time learning the position, and almost immediately pulled him away and just stuck him on the bench to sit until he could return kicks or run the occasional go-route. Next Spring they figure, "maybe he'll be better at CB since he can just learn technique, play M2M and use his instincts out there." Well, not a bad idea really, because he was pretty good there with 4 picks while playing largely as limited liability a NB. Even with him showing some signs of success and ability to stick there, they decided to toss him at RB because they felt they weren't using his talent enough, and thus began the "slash" experiment with him. Even then, not so bad because all he had to do was run the stretch and toss plays around the corner and make people miss. Then came 05' Spring and the staff has him running at WR again to go along with and CB and HB in drills, again, not even once did they give him a full year to concentrate on one spot. Yes, his ability to learn positions played a big factor in it, but how exactly does taking his concentration away from one position maximize a players ability to get on the field and make an impact to their highest potential? I honestly think Miami was too worried about using him in any way possible because they wanted his talent out on the field, and they completely neglected to "dig in" and actually teach the kid a position. It was a winning program that wanted to win, and it's obvious they felt getting him on the field was a must if they were going to be successful, but doing what's best for the program and what's best for the player got skewed with such a talented kid, and I honestly can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I knew I would only have him for so long (or short).

I am enjoying the debate Hoof, and welcome to the board. I am not about to ask how you know so much time to watch so much college football. I would like to get your take on 2 players. 2 players of which I think would be good players in our system but I don't watch nearly that much college football to know. 1 player is David Bruton, FS from ND. I am huge irish fan so I may be biased on this one. The other player is Ramses Barden, WR out of Cal-Poly.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

I am enjoying the debate Hoof, and welcome to the board. I am not about to ask how you know so much time to watch so much college football. I would like to get your take on 2 players. 2 players of which I think would be good players in our system but I don't watch nearly that much college football to know. 1 player is David Bruton, FS from ND. I am huge irish fan so I may be biased on this one. The other player is Ramses Barden, WR out of Cal-Poly.

I know you asked for his opinion, but I'll give you mine also. I'm not about to give you my life story on a message board, but my job deals with sports so I'm pretty much allowed to watch all this football.

 

Barden- IMO, he could be a 2nd round pick now. He ran a 4.5 I believe and for a 6'6 230 pound WR that's pretty damn good. He isn't too fast in game but he has solid hands and is a willing blocker.

 

Bruton- he had a solid combine and a solid pro day. He's physical with good size, he can hit pretty well, and he's a hard working leader. In the 4th, or even with our 3rd, he wouldn't be a bad pick. His team mate, Terrail Lambert, a CB, had a better pro day and is now probably a 4th or 5th, when 2 months ago, he might have been a 7th.