Kiper's 4 Round Mock

[bowlingtwig]

I know you asked for his opinion, but I'll give you mine also. I'm not about to give you my life story on a message board, but my job deals with sports so I'm pretty much allowed to watch all this football.

 

Barden- IMO, he could be a 2nd round pick now. He ran a 4.5 I believe and for a 6'6 230 pound WR that's pretty damn good. He isn't too fast in game but he has solid hands and is a willing blocker.

 

Bruton- he had a solid combine and a solid pro day. He's physical with good size, he can hit pretty well, and he's a hard working leader. In the 4th, or even with our 3rd, he wouldn't be a bad pick. His team mate, Terrail Lambert, a CB, had a better pro day and is now probably a 4th or 5th, when 2 months ago, he might have been a 7th.

Thanks for chiming in Brian. Thats great to here about those guys. These are 2 that have been watching closely for about the past month.

[jason]

On one hand, I'd love to see us draft a safety, especially when we might have our first crack at one.

 

On the other hand, haven't we committed ourselves to drafting a WR? According to Kiper's mock, we'd be taking the 8th best WR. If we wait until our next pick at #99, they'll have been 15 WR's taken. What Kiper is saying is comparable to what everyone else is saying.

 

While our safety position sucks, we added Josh Bullocks & Earl Glenn, and it looks like we're considering moving Zack Bowman to FS.

 

At WR we have Rashied, Hester, Bennett, and a couple of guys who won't be in the NFL next year. Yikes.

 

After WR, we need to go "best player available" with every pick. We have lots of flexibility. But it'd be crazy not to take a WR at #49.

 

I haven't committed myself to drafting a safety. From what I've seen, I'm not terribly impressed by the reach that will be required to grab a WR at our spot. The only committing I've seen is one of success, one of winning. I believe JA and the coaching staff is stocking up for a Super Bowl run this year. I think that if the choice is between 8th best WR and 3rd best Safety at the Bears' selection in the 2nd round, then you choose the best value...which is the Safety. On top of that, I still think that OG and S are stronger needs than WR...so I don't think has to be a WR drafted there.

[azbearsfan]

That's all pretty much the truth. However the thing with Hester that makes me say they jerked him around was how he was handled from the get-go. it's obvious he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but even so, you let a guy with his talent get more than one season to learn the WR position if you intend to use and develop him as a positional player. Miami didn't. He had a hard time learning the position, and almost immediately pulled him away and just stuck him on the bench to sit until he could return kicks or run the occasional go-route. Next Spring they figure, "maybe he'll be better at CB since he can just learn technique, play M2M and use his instincts out there." Well, not a bad idea really, because he was pretty good there with 4 picks while playing largely as limited liability a NB. Even with him showing some signs of success and ability to stick there, they decided to toss him at RB because they felt they weren't using his talent enough, and thus began the "slash" experiment with him. Even then, not so bad because all he had to do was run the stretch and toss plays around the corner and make people miss. Then came 05' Spring and the staff has him running at WR again to go along with and CB and HB in drills, again, not even once did they give him a full year to concentrate on one spot. Yes, his ability to learn positions played a big factor in it, but how exactly does taking his concentration away from one position maximize a players ability to get on the field and make an impact to their highest potential? I honestly think Miami was too worried about using him in any way possible because they wanted his talent out on the field, and they completely neglected to "dig in" and actually teach the kid a position. It was a winning program that wanted to win, and it's obvious they felt getting him on the field was a must if they were going to be successful, but doing what's best for the program and what's best for the player got skewed with such a talented kid, and I honestly can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I knew I would only have him for so long (or short).

 

 

Yes but he has that problem in high school as well. He had no position coming out of high school except ath. He couldn't learn a position in high school either. They just had him in for a few special plays at WR and RB that he could remember. So basically at Miami, they put this five star athlete who really had no experience at different spots hoping to find one he was good at. They didn't put him on the bench, he couldn't beat anybody else out for a position. The four picks he had were a result of bad passes caused by the dline, not some great break he made on the ball. He was the nickel back in those instances.

And the RB thing was a complete disaster. It completely negated his skills in the open field, and because he was so small, dline and LBers were killing him. He wasn't able to even get to the corner on a regular basis to make it a worthwhile position for him. So coming out of college then ticket was on him becoming a DB because Dion Sanders was "tutoring" him.

So really JA reached for nothing more than a return man at the time. Of course, I was happy because I was hoping he could do the same in the pros, and he did. The jury is still out on the WR switch.

 

My point is that they were trying to do what was best for the kid (find him a position to excel) but because of the player's limitations they were not able to.

[HoofHearted]

I am enjoying the debate Hoof, and welcome to the board. I am not about to ask how you know so much time to watch so much college football. I would like to get your take on 2 players. 2 players of which I think would be good players in our system but I don't watch nearly that much college football to know. 1 player is David Bruton, FS from ND. I am huge irish fan so I may be biased on this one. The other player is Ramses Barden, WR out of Cal-Poly.

 

I have always maintained that Bruton was the better safety with a much higher potential than Zib when both were roving NDs defensive backfield. I talked elsewhere before the Combine about how I completely expected an awesome display of athletic ability from him, and I wasn't disappointing. I like him a lot as an upside/development player at FS, but he does have one big flaw which is his poor angles to the play. I wouldn't mind him one bit at 99 if we can't anage to get Johnson or Delmas at 49. I would wager to say we are looking at some guys like him and McBath in rounds 3/4.

 

I'm really not a big fan of Ramses. I think some fans are just too impressed by a guys physical stature on paper that they ignore all the other stuff. Take Mike Williams for example, was one of those huge guys who kills it in college, and everyone loves his size and hands, but they don't see that he wasn't a good route runner and didn't get much separation. Instead relying on his using his body to create room for the catch, which won't fly enough against pro CBs, especially when you can't separate at all from them with your agility or savvy. I kept hearing about how Ramses had good Shrine week, but I saw a guy who didn't separate at all from defenders and had to rely on using his body way too much. I won't go as far as saying big=good in college, because you still have to have some skills to go with that, but when I see a guy like Ramses/Turner/Jarrett who is dominating guys almost completely with his body and nothing else, I have to say that big WRs are the most overrated prospects coming out of college. Not to mention Ramses was playing way inferior competition while blowing peoples minds with his paper numbers.

 

I don't WANT another >6' WR, and I certainly want size added to the position, but I'm never one to say, "We need to grab this guy, look at his size, it's what we are missing." Heck, I LOVE Mike Thomas and the guy isn't even 5'8". The difference I see with him is a great ability to separate, awesome quickness, hugely underrated strength, and a very well built body. He also has surprisingly big (and good) hands for his height too (9.5"). He will have to earn his way up from a returners role and people will try and label him a slot man, but he showed a great ability to play outside in college. I know there is another Arizona football guy here, and I'm sure he can attest to how explosive Mike can be. It's hard for me being from ASU to like a Wildcat, but I just couldn't help but be impressed by everything he did on the field, especially considering his size.

[bowlingtwig]

I have always maintained that Bruton was the better safety with a much higher potential than Zib when both were roving NDs defensive backfield. I talked elsewhere before the Combine about how I completely expected an awesome display of athletic ability from him, and I wasn't disappointing. I like him a lot as an upside/development player at FS, but he does have one big flaw which is his poor angles to the play. I wouldn't mind him one bit at 99 if we can't anage to get Johnson or Delmas at 49. I would wager to say we are looking at some guys like him and McBath in rounds 3/4.

 

I'm really not a big fan of Ramses. I think some fans are just too impressed by a guys physical stature on paper that they ignore all the other stuff. Take Mike Williams for example, was one of those huge guys who kills it in college, and everyone loves his size and hands, but they don't see that he wasn't a good route runner and didn't get much separation. Instead relying on his using his body to create room for the catch, which won't fly enough against pro CBs, especially when you can't separate at all from them with your agility or savvy. I kept hearing about how Ramses had good Shrine week, but I saw a guy who didn't separate at all from defenders and had to rely on using his body way too much. I won't go as far as saying big=good in college, because you still have to have some skills to go with that, but when I see a guy like Ramses/Turner/Jarrett who is dominating guys almost completely with his body and nothing else, I have to say that big WRs are the most overrated prospects coming out of college. Not to mention Ramses was playing way inferior competition while blowing peoples minds with his paper numbers.

 

I don't WANT another >6' WR, and I certainly want size added to the position, but I'm never one to say, "We need to grab this guy, look at his size, it's what we are missing." Heck, I LOVE Mike Thomas and the guy isn't even 5'8". The difference I see with him is a great ability to separate, awesome quickness, hugely underrated strength, and a very well built body. He also has surprisingly big (and good) hands for his height too (9.5"). He will have to earn his way up from a returners role and people will try and label him a slot man, but he showed a great ability to play outside in college. I know there is another Arizona football guy here, and I'm sure he can attest to how explosive Mike can be. It's hard for me being from ASU to like a Wildcat, but I just couldn't help but be impressed by everything he did on the field, especially considering his size.

 

Thank you for the in depth report.

[bowlingtwig]

Thank you for the in depth report.

Hey hoof do you know of a good web site to get in depth scouting reports for guys like a Mike Thomas who aren't projected to go until late in the draft.

[HoofHearted]

Hey hoof do you know of a good web site to get in depth scouting reports for guys like a Mike Thomas who aren't projected to go until late in the draft.

 

I bet Thomas comes off the board a lot earlier than you'd expect. I don't read much web scouting, but I am a long-time member of cds and their database is the biggest around. I do a lot of opinion sharing with the other guys there.

[ASHKUM BEAR]

Hey hoof do you know of a good web site to get in depth scouting reports for guys like a Mike Thomas who aren't projected to go until late in the draft.

 

draftcountdown has some good scouting reports, they seem to breakdown skill sets better. Walterfooball also has profile reports, but there really not as good.

[bowlingtwig]

draftcountdown has some good scouting reports, they seem to breakdown skill sets better. Walterfooball also has profile reports, but there really not as good.

Great thanks.

[bradjock]

Louis Murphy, yay! Another guy who loves to drop passes and had minimal success in a fantastic system. More often than not, those workout warriors with limited success in college end up doing dick in the NFL. Heck, we already have one on our team (Aromashodu).

 

Tebow would be the #1 if you like QBs who can't read the field, or play as a pocket passer.

 

And Bradley is now a Chief who didn't do much of anything for us (and this is coming from a guy who hates that we cut him). Some guys get picked because of their size/speed measurables, but you have to do something special in college to get picked that early. His tape around the injury wasn't awesome, but it wasn't bad at all, and unlike Mark, Mass isn't a workout warrior.

 

I loved Devin coming out of college. The guy never found a spot, but he was dynamic and played well in small stints everywhere his coach put him, all while being jerked around from position to position. Some guys just ooze that game breaking football player feel while being phenomenal athletes, and to me, he was that guy from the second he stepped on the field in Miami. I loved it how the people here all hated that pick, too, all the while jizzing themselves over Sinorice Moss. When you get a shot at those dynamite guys who could explode with another year in college, you take the shot.

 

I do have to give you credit . . . you sure as hell know you're college football.

 

There's really only one thing you say I have a problem with: You mention Hester would have been better if he'd had another year of college. That's definitely true. But wouldn't that be true of most guys? Wouldn't Louis Murphy be one helluva a lot better next year if he could play a 5th year?

 

Yes, you did back that up with Hester by saying, "Some guys just ooze that game breaking football player feel while being phenomenal athletes" . . . but how doesn't that equate to Tebow? Hell, at the very least wouldn't Tebow make one helluva a TE?

 

So would you be ok if the Bears drafted Iglesias?

[bradjock]

I haven't committed myself to drafting a safety.

 

Maybe you haven't committed to a safety, but haven't the Bears basically committed ourselves to drafting a WR? Just like we committed ourselves to drafting an OT in round #1 last year, and we probably decided we were going RB in round #2. Based on our lack of movement, it seems apparant we'll draft a WR at #49 (barring someone falling to us unexpectedly . . . or trading down where we would still draft a WR with out first pick)

 

From what I've seen, I'm not terribly impressed by the reach that will be required to grab a WR at our spot.

 

Would it really be a reach??? Everything seems to suggest there will be a run on WR's in rounds 2 & 3. You can debate who's worth it, but the Bears are in a pretty good position to get a WR they want. By the time we draft again that guy will be gone.

 

At the very least, that one dude from Oklahoma who sang the duet with Willie Nelson should be around, and he's universally reguarded as a #2 pick.

 

The only committing I've seen is one of success, one of winning. I believe JA and the coaching staff is stocking up for a Super Bowl run this year.

 

Shouldn't this be a two year plan? I like the idea of Cutler taking us back to the promised land in year one, but realistically, it's going to take him a year to reach his full potential with this team.

 

I think that if the choice is between 8th best WR and 3rd best Safety at the Bears' selection in the 2nd round, then you choose the best value...which is the Safety.

 

Hell, depending on how things fall, there's a chance we could get the best safety. But we'd be ignoring the fact that:

1. WR is by far our weakest position.

2. There should be a pretty good safety available at the end of round 3.

On top of that, I still think that OG and S are stronger needs than WR...so I don't think has to be a WR drafted there.

 

How can you say that when we really only have 3 WR's on the roster? And all 3 are bad/mediocre/unproven. For safety & OG:

OG: I'm excited to see what Frank Omiyale can do, can Beekman & Garza improve, and will Buenning compete for a roster spot.

Safety: We're not great, but we're ok with Payne & Steltz & SS. As for FS, Bullocks was a former #2 pick, and we're likely to add a guy in the draft.

[HoofHearted]

I do have to give you credit . . . you sure as hell know you're college football.

 

There's really only one thing you say I have a problem with: You mention Hester would have been better if he'd had another year of college. That's definitely true. But wouldn't that be true of most guys? Wouldn't Louis Murphy be one helluva a lot better next year if he could play a 5th year?

 

Yes, you did back that up with Hester by saying, "Some guys just ooze that game breaking football player feel while being phenomenal athletes" . . . but how doesn't that equate to Tebow? Hell, at the very least wouldn't Tebow make one helluva a TE?

 

So would you be ok if the Bears drafted Iglesias?

 

Unlike Hester, Murphy had an entire career at WR to blow up, and unfortunately it never happened. I will admit that the guy has some flashes where he straight up dominates a good DB, but those things happened like once every five games and he'd just go back to the twilight zone the rest of the game.

 

I haven't seen Tebow play TE because he hasn't yet played it. Sure he's got the heart and head, but I'll wait until he actually plays a spot to say he can be a helluva player there. I'm sure he'll find success doing something in the NFL, in fact I think the guy should stick at QB and actually leanr how a pro QB plays rather than make his one read, dumpoff, or takeoff (it was the same thing I criticized Alex Smith for coming out of Urban Meyer's system).

 

No, because I think we could get a better and more sure player elsewhere with the 49 pick. If one of the top 7 don't fall to 49 (and I highly doubt they will get that far) then I think we should look elsewhere. I don't like drafting for need just for needs sake, it's a rather myopic way of looking at the draft. Now tell me that we are going to grab the BPA of WR, FS, DE, OL, or even LB and I'll be a happy man, because that means we will get a lot closer to grabbing the true BPA on our board. Personally, I think with our situation we will without a doubt wait on an upside/developmental OT until 4/5/6, which is great because the draft is absolutely loaded with those guys (Caldwell, Murtha, Gardner, Vollmer, Lang, Bell, Bright, Walker, Cadogen, Goldberg, Reynolds, Roland, McKee, Ramsey, dyke Louis). That means FS, WR, DE at 49 should be the way to go, IMHO. Of course if a guy like Unger, Meredtih, or Wood were there, I wouldn't object at all.

[HoofHearted]

Hell, depending on how things fall, there's a chance we could get the best safety. But we'd be ignoring the fact that:

1. WR is by far our weakest position.

2. There should be a pretty good safety available at the end of round 3.

 

Not going to disagree with this, but I will contest WR being our biggest need. Hester improved every week down the stretch, and while we really don't know what Bennett can be as a pro, I am confident in his ability after seeing what he did at Vandy with and without Cutler. So there is some nice promise there. Of course it would be nice to replace Davis with someone who can actually catch the ball, and I'm not a big fan of Aromashodu or Rideau. However, at least Davis showed he can separate while dropping those passes, so that is something to keep your head up about, and to me, Shodu is basically like drafting an athletic freak WR like Wallace or Murphy at this point. I look at FS and see a guy who proved his blowiness in N'leans, a second year player who has trouble staying healthy at CB and wonder how moving him to the more physically demanding safety position is going to help that, and a guy who should be a backup SS at best in Steltz. Things aren't looking even close to promising at FS to me.

 

I'm also a fan of Beekman, and really don't understand why Omiyale is taking his spot and not competing at RG with Buenning (moving Garza to a definite backup role that he has so greatly earned, lol). Yes, he blew some big blocks like the one that would have sprung Forte for that short TD against Minny where the tides turned, but he also showed a lot of promise a pulling/trapping guard. He was the only guy on our OL last year who I trusted to pull outside or actually get out in front of plays and block up field. Let the guy develop and I bet we have a real solid interior Ol on this team. Let him rot on the bench and he MAY turn out to be Olin's successor.

[jason]

I haven't committed myself to drafting a safety.

 

Maybe you haven't committed to a safety, but haven't the Bears basically committed ourselves to drafting a WR? Just like we committed ourselves to drafting an OT in round #1 last year, and we probably decided we were going RB in round #2. Based on our lack of movement, it seems apparant we'll draft a WR at #49 (barring someone falling to us unexpectedly . . . or trading down where we would still draft a WR with out first pick)

 

From what I've seen, I'm not terribly impressed by the reach that will be required to grab a WR at our spot.

 

Would it really be a reach??? Everything seems to suggest there will be a run on WR's in rounds 2 & 3. You can debate who's worth it, but the Bears are in a pretty good position to get a WR they want. By the time we draft again that guy will be gone.

 

At the very least, that one dude from Oklahoma who sang the duet with Willie Nelson should be around, and he's universally reguarded as a #2 pick.

 

The only committing I've seen is one of success, one of winning. I believe JA and the coaching staff is stocking up for a Super Bowl run this year.

 

Shouldn't this be a two year plan? I like the idea of Cutler taking us back to the promised land in year one, but realistically, it's going to take him a year to reach his full potential with this team.

 

I think that if the choice is between 8th best WR and 3rd best Safety at the Bears' selection in the 2nd round, then you choose the best value...which is the Safety.

 

Hell, depending on how things fall, there's a chance we could get the best safety. But we'd be ignoring the fact that:

1. WR is by far our weakest position.

2. There should be a pretty good safety available at the end of round 3.

On top of that, I still think that OG and S are stronger needs than WR...so I don't think has to be a WR drafted there.

 

How can you say that when we really only have 3 WR's on the roster? And all 3 are bad/mediocre/unproven. For safety & OG:

OG: I'm excited to see what Frank Omiyale can do, can Beekman & Garza improve, and will Buenning compete for a roster spot.

Safety: We're not great, but we're ok with Payne & Steltz & SS. As for FS, Bullocks was a former #2 pick, and we're likely to add a guy in the draft.

 

As for the OGs vs. WRs, let me put it this way...

Would you rather have a huge, delicious apple, or a grape, a raisin, and a couple cherries? Basically, that's how I think of the possibility of a new, great OG like Duke Robinson, and the hodge-podge of guys the Bears currently have at OG (which doesn't mean that none of them can't get better and turn into all-pros). It's essentially the same as the classic fantasy football trade where one person offers a bunch of average stuff for one great players. Everyone knows the one great player is better than the grab-bag.

 

As for the Safeties vs. WRs, I truly believe that the problem with the Bears offensive woes and lack of production has a lot to do with the poor OL play, inconsistent QB play, and borderline incompetent play-calling from the OC. I believe that the WRs the Bears have now will be able to produce good things on the field next year, with Hester and Bennett making great strides. Add that to the great depth at TE the Bears have, all-star pass catching out of the backfield, the belief that they'll still get a FA WR (I think they're playing hardball and being shrewd), and the poor performance in the defensive secondary last year from the FS position, and that makes me think that a stud FS (who would probably start day one) would help the team much more than the 8th best WR who probably won't even beat out the incumbent starters anyway.

 

Regarding the 1yr/2yr plan, perhaps you're right. But I see no reason why the 1yr plan can't work, and I predict that the Bears will make it to the NFC Championship this year.

[bradjock]

No, because I think we could get a better and more sure player elsewhere with the 49 pick. If one of the top 7 don't fall to 49 (and I highly doubt they will get that far) then I think we should look elsewhere. I don't like drafting for need just for needs sake, it's a rather myopic way of looking at the draft. Now tell me that we are going to grab the BPA of WR, FS, DE, OL, or even LB and I'll be a happy man, because that means we will get a lot closer to grabbing the true BPA on our board.

 

I agree with what your saying 100% (although your use of the word 'myopic' makes me wonder if you're an optomologist.)

 

But what I'm saying is that we ARE going to be focusing purely on the WR position. If you don't believe me, think about what we've done:

1. Lose Grossman & Orton, replace them with Cutler & Basanez (definite upgrade)

2. Lose Tait & St. Clair, replace them with Pace, Amiyale, & Shaffer (again, definite upgrade)

3. Lose Mike Brown, replace him with Bullocks, and younger players like Steltz & Bowman (not an upgrade . . . but it's really not worse)

4. Lose Booker & Lloyd and replaced them with . . . nothing. (Bad gets slightly worse)

[HoofHearted]

No, because I think we could get a better and more sure player elsewhere with the 49 pick. If one of the top 7 don't fall to 49 (and I highly doubt they will get that far) then I think we should look elsewhere. I don't like drafting for need just for needs sake, it's a rather myopic way of looking at the draft. Now tell me that we are going to grab the BPA of WR, FS, DE, OL, or even LB and I'll be a happy man, because that means we will get a lot closer to grabbing the true BPA on our board.

 

I agree with what your saying 100% (although your use of the word 'myopic' makes me wonder if you're an optomologist.)

 

But what I'm saying is that we ARE going to be focusing purely on the WR position. If you don't believe me, think about what we've done:

1. Lose Grossman & Orton, replace them with Cutler & Basanez (definite upgrade)

2. Lose Tait & St. Clair, replace them with Pace, Amiyale, & Shaffer (again, definite upgrade)

3. Lose Mike Brown, replace him with Bullocks, and younger players like Steltz & Bowman (not an upgrade . . . but it's really not worse)

4. Lose Booker & Lloyd and replaced them with . . . nothing. (Bad gets slightly worse)

 

 

I've said this elsewhere when someone brought up the fact that we seemingly have no interest in signing a vet WR, and how it points to us definitely going WR first (when he still had 18). I think it shows a definite commitment on Lovie and co.'s behalf to youth, and commitment to the players they invested in (3rd on Bennett, pretty good money on Davis). I, for one, absolutely love that frame of mind and have been calling it for it since we signed Moose and all the other stop-gap vets. It definitely means we will bring in a WR, but I don't think it means we are all on on WR at 49. I think the commitment extends to both Bennett/Hester as well as whatever rookie they bring in, but I don't think it means anything definite about the draft other than the fact that they intend to add talent there through it. Limiting yourself to one position and broadcasting yourself to the whole league like that would be, like I said, myopic.

 

I look at it this way, if we went into the season as is at WR I would feel at least okay about having upside there. If we went in with our current ragtag squad at FS, I might just yarf. Our coverage from our safeties (FS in particular) has killed us two years in a row as much as any other position on D (including DE), and it's about damn time we fix it. Give me a true rush RE (probably not the right spot) who can actually apply pressure on a consistent basis, or a smart coverage FS at 49 and I'll be a very happy man.

[jason]

I've said this elsewhere when someone brought up the fact that we seemingly have no interest in signing a vet WR, and how it points to us definitely going WR first (when he still had 18). I think it shows a definite commitment on Lovie and co.'s behalf to youth, and commitment to the players they invested in (3rd on Bennett, pretty good money on Davis). I, for one, absolutely love that frame of mind and have been calling it for it since we signed Moose and all the other stop-gap vets. It definitely means we will bring in a WR, but I don't think it means we are all on on WR at 49. I think the commitment extends to both Bennett/Hester as well as whatever rookie they bring in, but I don't think it means anything definite about the draft other than the fact that they intend to add talent there through it. Limiting yourself to one position and broadcasting yourself to the whole league like that would be, like I said, myopic.

 

I look at it this way, if we went into the season as is at WR I would feel at least okay about having upside there. If we went in with our current ragtag squad at FS, I might just yarf. Our coverage from our safeties (FS in particular) has killed us two years in a row as much as any other position on D (including DE), and it's about damn time we fix it. Give me a true rush RE (probably not the right spot) who can actually apply pressure on a consistent basis, or a smart coverage FS at 49 and I'll be a very happy man.

 

Agreed on FS. This is almost exactly what I'm saying. Although, I don't really think a pass-rush DE is needed. I think a new scheme that doesn't have them running the exact same semi-circle around the QB every play is needed. It seems that any time the DL actually stunts the opposing offense is caught off guard. There is a reason why scrub QBs are able to step up into the pocket and throw 60 passes of 10-yards or less while destroying the secondary, and it's not all because of the players being unable to get pressure.

[defiantgiant]

I have always maintained that Bruton was the better safety with a much higher potential than Zib when both were roving NDs defensive backfield. I talked elsewhere before the Combine about how I completely expected an awesome display of athletic ability from him, and I wasn't disappointing. I like him a lot as an upside/development player at FS, but he does have one big flaw which is his poor angles to the play. I wouldn't mind him one bit at 99 if we can't anage to get Johnson or Delmas at 49. I would wager to say we are looking at some guys like him and McBath in rounds 3/4.

 

I'm really not a big fan of Ramses. I think some fans are just too impressed by a guys physical stature on paper that they ignore all the other stuff. Take Mike Williams for example, was one of those huge guys who kills it in college, and everyone loves his size and hands, but they don't see that he wasn't a good route runner and didn't get much separation. Instead relying on his using his body to create room for the catch, which won't fly enough against pro CBs, especially when you can't separate at all from them with your agility or savvy. I kept hearing about how Ramses had good Shrine week, but I saw a guy who didn't separate at all from defenders and had to rely on using his body way too much. I won't go as far as saying big=good in college, because you still have to have some skills to go with that, but when I see a guy like Ramses/Turner/Jarrett who is dominating guys almost completely with his body and nothing else, I have to say that big WRs are the most overrated prospects coming out of college. Not to mention Ramses was playing way inferior competition while blowing peoples minds with his paper numbers.

 

I don't WANT another >6' WR, and I certainly want size added to the position, but I'm never one to say, "We need to grab this guy, look at his size, it's what we are missing." Heck, I LOVE Mike Thomas and the guy isn't even 5'8". The difference I see with him is a great ability to separate, awesome quickness, hugely underrated strength, and a very well built body. He also has surprisingly big (and good) hands for his height too (9.5"). He will have to earn his way up from a returners role and people will try and label him a slot man, but he showed a great ability to play outside in college. I know there is another Arizona football guy here, and I'm sure he can attest to how explosive Mike can be. It's hard for me being from ASU to like a Wildcat, but I just couldn't help but be impressed by everything he did on the field, especially considering his size.

 

I couldn't agree with you more on Thomas. If the Bears want to give Bennett a legitimate shot at the flanker spot, they could upgrade the passing game significantly by drafting Thomas to play the slot. Even as a rookie, he'd be a massive upgrade over Rashied Davis, and would give us some insurance in case Bennett can't step up. His size doesn't worry me so much, since he's got a ridiculous vertical (over 40", if I'm remembering right) so he should still be able to compete for jump balls with much taller DBs.

 

I'm with you on Barden, too: he just hasn't had to do the things that you need an NFL wideout to do. He reminds me a lot of Jerome Simpson from last year: big guy, won a lot of jump balls against lower-tier DBs, but has never had to run NFL routes or get any separation, since he could always come up with the ball one-on-one. Let's see him do that when it's Ed Reed in coverage.

 

I have to say, I'm not a fan of Bruton's. Poor angles and bad instincts in coverage are a bad, bad thing for a free safety, and a lot of guys can't be coached out of them. Look at Danieal Manning: he's faster and more athletic than Bruton, but he got burned constantly at FS. He was always taking himself out of the play with a poor angle or a bad read. I'd much rather have a slower, less elite athlete back there with impeccable ball skills/play reading. A guy like Louis Delmas, Rashad Johnson, or even Jairus Byrd (who I think is a natural FS, and actually played there before he got moved to corner) would be better than Bruton.

 

All three of those guys aren't quite NFL-ready from a physical standpoint, but you have to look at the success rate for physical projects versus developmental ones. The NFL is full of safeties who got bigger and stronger after college; the number of guys who got smarter is a lot smaller.

 

All in all, if the draft breaks down like Kiper thinks it will, I'd WAY rather have:

2.49) Louis Delmas/Jairus Byrd/Rashad Johnson/Darcel McBath/Sherrod Martin, FS

3.99) Mike Thomas/Brandon Tate, WR

4.119) Gerald Cadogan, OT

 

...than Massaquoi, Clemons, and Chris Owens.

[azbearsfan]

I have always maintained that Bruton was the better safety with a much higher potential than Zib when both were roving NDs defensive backfield. I talked elsewhere before the Combine about how I completely expected an awesome display of athletic ability from him, and I wasn't disappointing. I like him a lot as an upside/development player at FS, but he does have one big flaw which is his poor angles to the play. I wouldn't mind him one bit at 99 if we can't anage to get Johnson or Delmas at 49. I would wager to say we are looking at some guys like him and McBath in rounds 3/4.

 

I'm really not a big fan of Ramses. I think some fans are just too impressed by a guys physical stature on paper that they ignore all the other stuff. Take Mike Williams for example, was one of those huge guys who kills it in college, and everyone loves his size and hands, but they don't see that he wasn't a good route runner and didn't get much separation. Instead relying on his using his body to create room for the catch, which won't fly enough against pro CBs, especially when you can't separate at all from them with your agility or savvy. I kept hearing about how Ramses had good Shrine week, but I saw a guy who didn't separate at all from defenders and had to rely on using his body way too much. I won't go as far as saying big=good in college, because you still have to have some skills to go with that, but when I see a guy like Ramses/Turner/Jarrett who is dominating guys almost completely with his body and nothing else, I have to say that big WRs are the most overrated prospects coming out of college. Not to mention Ramses was playing way inferior competition while blowing peoples minds with his paper numbers.

 

I don't WANT another >6' WR, and I certainly want size added to the position, but I'm never one to say, "We need to grab this guy, look at his size, it's what we are missing." Heck, I LOVE Mike Thomas and the guy isn't even 5'8". The difference I see with him is a great ability to separate, awesome quickness, hugely underrated strength, and a very well built body. He also has surprisingly big (and good) hands for his height too (9.5"). He will have to earn his way up from a returners role and people will try and label him a slot man, but he showed a great ability to play outside in college. I know there is another Arizona football guy here, and I'm sure he can attest to how explosive Mike can be. It's hard for me being from ASU to like a Wildcat, but I just couldn't help but be impressed by everything he did on the field, especially considering his size.

 

 

Hoof,

 

When did you go to ASU? I too, graduated a SunDevil.

[Stinger226]

I couldn't agree with you more on Thomas. If the Bears want to give Bennett a legitimate shot at the flanker spot, they could upgrade the passing game significantly by drafting Thomas to play the slot. Even as a rookie, he'd be a massive upgrade over Rashied Davis, and would give us some insurance in case Bennett can't step up. His size doesn't worry me so much, since he's got a ridiculous vertical (over 40", if I'm remembering right) so he should still be able to compete for jump balls with much taller DBs.

 

I'm with you on Barden, too: he just hasn't had to do the things that you need an NFL wideout to do. He reminds me a lot of Jerome Simpson from last year: big guy, won a lot of jump balls against lower-tier DBs, but has never had to run NFL routes or get any separation, since he could always come up with the ball one-on-one. Let's see him do that when it's Ed Reed in coverage.

 

I have to say, I'm not a fan of Bruton's. Poor angles and bad instincts in coverage are a bad, bad thing for a free safety, and a lot of guys can't be coached out of them. Look at Danieal Manning: he's faster and more athletic than Bruton, but he got burned constantly at FS. He was always taking himself out of the play with a poor angle or a bad read. I'd much rather have a slower, less elite athlete back there with impeccable ball skills/play reading. A guy like Louis Delmas, Rashad Johnson, or even Jairus Byrd (who I think is a natural FS, and actually played there before he got moved to corner) would be better than Bruton.

 

All three of those guys aren't quite NFL-ready from a physical standpoint, but you have to look at the success rate for physical projects versus developmental ones. The NFL is full of safeties who got bigger and stronger after college; the number of guys who got smarter is a lot smaller.

 

All in all, if the draft breaks down like Kiper thinks it will, I'd WAY rather have:

2.49) Louis Delmas/Jairus Byrd/Rashad Johnson/Darcel McBath/Sherrod Martin, FS

3.99) Mike Thomas/Brandon Tate, WR

4.119) Gerald Cadogan, OT

 

...than Massaquoi, Clemons, and Chris Owens.

You actually with your draft breakdown, have picked the best available player at a position we have as a need. According to PFWs big board Delmars is the 37th ranked player, Bryd/FS/Oregon is 47th, and Johnson/FS/Ala is 48th. with the second pick Thomas/WR/ASU is 69th, Ogletree/WR/Vir is 95th, and Collie/WR/BYU is 96th. With the third pick Cadogan/OT/PSU is ranked 78th. You would get great draft valve with Delmas, Thomas, Cadogan and later draft a bigger WR to help. Melton/DE/Texas would possible be avaiable with our first 5th round pick and is ranked the 117th ranked player. Those first 4 picks would address needs and have valve.

[HoofHearted]

Hoof,

 

When did you go to ASU? I too, graduated a SunDevil.

 

Class of 07'.

[azbearsfan]

Class of 07'.

 

 

lol I'm too old. Class of '99

[AZ54]

I would gladly take Mike Thomas over Rashied Davis hands down. He'd out perform him even as a rookie. I love his athleticism and he's one of those guys that is just a good football player. Thomas also has kick return ability so there'd be no loss there either and more likely a gain because he's a shiftier runner than Davis who is just a straight ahead guy.

[HoofHearted]

I would gladly take Mike Thomas over Rashied Davis hands down. He'd out perform him even as a rookie. I love his athleticism and he's one of those guys that is just a good football player. Thomas also has kick return ability so there'd be no loss there either and more likely a gain because he's a shiftier runner than Davis who is just a straight ahead guy.

 

I'd love to see him and Hester run the reverse, or rather other teams trying to cover that. Thomas may have run the best end around in the nation. Once he got outside, he looked like a missile and turned into a straight up HB out there when he had to create room. I know it's an odd thing to notice about a player, but the handful of times I saw him run the play I was completely shocked.

[HoofHearted]

lol I'm too old. Class of '99

 

I think I saw some Sun Devil adult diapers at Albertson's the other day.