Whats up with Graham?

[nfoligno]

With each passing day, I can't help but wonder what the hell is going on w/ Graham.

 

Most recently, we read about Bowman going down in practice. After that happens, two things are seen/heard that stand out. One, McBride is called on to fill in for Graham. Two, when Lovie is asked about Bowman going down, he talks about how we have other players ready to step in, mentioning Moore and McBride, but no mention of Graham.

 

I really do not understand what is going on here. We read early on that Graham is being moved to FS. I thought he looked solid at CB last year, but w/ Vasher looking healthy and FS being such a dire need, I said, Okay, and went along.

 

Then in the final OTA, I read about how DM is hurt, and Graham is practicing at nickel, rather than FS. That made zero sense to me, but hey, its just an OTA, so I went along.

 

Then news of Tillman's injury breaks, and some serious shuffling takes place. Steltz is moved to backup SS and DM to FS? Huh? Further, Graham moved back to CB, but is behind Bowman. Now I am confused. If the staff does not believe Stelz is a FS (finally) that would seem like a more pressing reason to work Graham in at FS, but instead we move him to CB as he has experience and we may well have the need there. Okay, fine. But we put him at CB behind Bowman? So he is still a backup, only deeper.

 

And again, the most recent. Bowman goes down, and Graham is not even the player we insert, instead going w/ McBride who Graham beat out last year.

 

I really just do not understand what role the staff envisions for Graham at this point, nor do I understand the developmental path. This would seem like a great opportunity to work him at FS, yet we are not. W/ Tillman down, and especially w/ Bowman hurting, again, a great opportunity to insert Graham. Yet the snaps seem to be more going to McBride and Moore.

 

I don't get it. The only thing I can reach to come up w/ is the staff feels they know what they have in Graham, as he started last year, and thus they are trying to get more work in for the players who are less developed or who they don't know what they have. If this is the case, and that is a big if, I think it is a huge mistake. While Graham did start last year, he is far from developed or polished, and not getting him as many reps as possible in camp seems like a total waste in terms of development.

 

It seems like we say this for a player ever year, but did Graham piss off Lovie and get in his dog house?

[madlithuanian]

Dang, good sluethin' nfo.

 

I had just kind of forgot about him thinking he was in the mix somewhere.

 

It really does seem odd that there seems to be one or two guys every season that look great, and yet the staff seems to bury them.

 

I swear Olin or someone's gonna write a book after retiring and shock us with some interesting tid-bits...

 

(I'm sure Benson will have his out anytime soon..."I'm the Best and the Bears are Silly to Not Believe in Me and Ulracher and Mike Brown Picked on Me and Does Anyone Wanna Go Boating?")

[AZ54]

Graham is clearly in the doghouse, how he got there I don't know. Perhaps it was some bitchin' and moanin' over the FS move. Now he's back at CB but let's be clear, if he's as good as many on this board have been touting him to be we'd be hearing more about him. There was talk about him being a potential starter for us and taking a step up this year. Well then a guy with that kind of talent who is going against second string players on our offense (Caleb Hanie QB and a slew of no-names no-experience at WR) and he still isn't making INT's is just not playing well.

 

Years ago another player got a lot of starts in his rookie year and did "ok" filling in for an injured player. He then got put back on third string before camp started and subsequently spent the whole year pouting. He didn't standout in training camp that year, basically looked like a 3rd string QB. That guy was Kyle Orton. I'm not comparing a QB to a CB just saying that history shows some players don't always handle position switches and/or demotions well and that's what I think is going on here.

 

Lovie for his part is making it clear that a job won't be handed to someone, which is good IMO.

[nfoligno]

I do not recall Orton "spending a whole year pouting". In fact, I thought he dealt w/ his 2nd season w/ class. Even in his rookie year, when he was replaced by Rex after leading the team to a winning record, I don't recall him complaining about the benching. I thought he took the high road, both that year and after.

 

He may have made comments about feeling like he should have been given an opportunity the following season to compete, but I just do not recall him spending the following season pouting.

 

 

Graham is clearly in the doghouse, how he got there I don't know. Perhaps it was some bitchin' and moanin' over the FS move. Now he's back at CB but let's be clear, if he's as good as many on this board have been touting him to be we'd be hearing more about him. There was talk about him being a potential starter for us and taking a step up this year. Well then a guy with that kind of talent who is going against second string players on our offense (Caleb Hanie QB and a slew of no-names no-experience at WR) and he still isn't making INT's is just not playing well.

 

Years ago another player got a lot of starts in his rookie year and did "ok" filling in for an injured player. He then got put back on third string before camp started and subsequently spent the whole year pouting. He didn't standout in training camp that year, basically looked like a 3rd string QB. That guy was Kyle Orton. I'm not comparing a QB to a CB just saying that history shows some players don't always handle position switches and/or demotions well and that's what I think is going on here.

 

Lovie for his part is making it clear that a job won't be handed to someone, which is good IMO.

 

[madlithuanian]

All well and good, but it still doesn't quite explain the odd behavior of this staff to start certain guys over others. Maybe there are ghost practices we and the media aren't privvy to. It sure seems like a guy can get in Smith doghouse or his penthouse for some reason and remain there all season regardless of production or lack thereof.

 

I am just waiting for some former player to need a book deal and let loose some gossip...

[nfoligno]

One more thing AZ,

 

You imply Graham may not in fact be playing well due to (your logic) he is not getting interceptions against 2nd and 3rd string QBs and WRs. But let me ask you this. It seems he has been playing nickel and not CB, whether against 1st or 3rd string. The staff is now developing him at nickel, rather than CB. Anyway, while he may not have the picks to his credit, have you been reading about receivers making catches against him? I haven't. Is it not possible that his coverage has been to the point that our QBs have simply not been throwing to the receiver he is covering? And if that is the case, how can he be blamed for not getting picks when he is not being thrown against?

 

Graham is clearly in the doghouse, how he got there I don't know. Perhaps it was some bitchin' and moanin' over the FS move. Now he's back at CB but let's be clear, if he's as good as many on this board have been touting him to be we'd be hearing more about him. There was talk about him being a potential starter for us and taking a step up this year. Well then a guy with that kind of talent who is going against second string players on our offense (Caleb Hanie QB and a slew of no-names no-experience at WR) and he still isn't making INT's is just not playing well.

 

Years ago another player got a lot of starts in his rookie year and did "ok" filling in for an injured player. He then got put back on third string before camp started and subsequently spent the whole year pouting. He didn't standout in training camp that year, basically looked like a 3rd string QB. That guy was Kyle Orton. I'm not comparing a QB to a CB just saying that history shows some players don't always handle position switches and/or demotions well and that's what I think is going on here.

 

Lovie for his part is making it clear that a job won't be handed to someone, which is good IMO.

 

[nfoligno]

I agree we tend to see the dog house/penthouse mentality too often. At the same time, I am not sure that is really the case here.

 

More and more, I am thinking the staff believes the best way for Graham to get on the field and have an impact this year is as a nickel. I think that if Graham looks good enough in camp at nickel, DM can play full time FS and we don't have to move players around when in nickel, as was previously planned (DM to nickel and Steltz to FS). If Graham plays well enough, he can simply play nickel and DM stays at FS.

 

I have several problems w/ this line of thinking though:

 

One. I do not believe our CB position is set. Vasher has a lot to prove, and is coming off two weak/injury seasons. Tillman also is coming off an injured season, and further, is out now and may be for a while, even into the season. Bowman has looked great in camp, but the key knock on him in the draft was injury, and that is what we have seen thus far as well. His NFL injuries may not be related to his college injuries that had everyone concerned, but his inability to stay healthy has to be a concern regardless. Thus, I think it very possible Graham, as a backup CB, could see time this year as a starting CB.

 

Two. I fear the staff may believe, if the need arises, we can simply shift him back to CB. Problem I have w/ this is, while he did get starting experience last year, he is far from some seasoned veteran. I think we may be asking/expecting a bit much to spend an entire offseason working at other positions, only to move him back to CB when the needs comes up.

 

Three. I believe our current strategy is very short sighted. He showed very solid starting caliber potential at CB last year. Further, the staff said they believe he could excel as a FS. Yet we are not working him (and thus not developing him) at either of those two positions, which I would consider a more long term outlook. Instead, he is working almost solely at nickel, which just doesn't feel like a long term developmental plan. I would rather we left him at FS, even if there was zero expectation he could start this year, as he would have a full year to develop into a potential long term position. Ditto at CB. If he spends this year working only at nickel, it just feels like this year would be near wasted in terms of development. If we envision him one day being a CB or FS, spending a year solely at nickel just seems very short sighted.

 

All well and good, but it still doesn't quite explain the odd behavior of this staff to start certain guys over others. Maybe there are ghost practices we and the media aren't privvy to. It sure seems like a guy can get in Smith doghouse or his penthouse for some reason and remain there all season regardless of production or lack thereof.

 

I am just waiting for some former player to need a book deal and let loose some gossip...

 

[madlithuanian]

I hear ya. The dog/penhouse thing may not be super applicable in this particular instance, but it still leaves me with far too many question on how this staff works these things out.

 

Your analysis on Graham I think is spot on. There does do be some mentality that all the guys in the secondary can just be ambidexterious at any position (CB-FS-SS-nickel-dime,etc.)

 

It seems like we hinder the development of many of these young guys by playing musical chairs. I truly wonder if D Manning would actually be a very good S right now, had we left him and let him develop a bit. We'll never know I suppose.

 

I just hope it works out. But I have my doubts. Hoke seems to be getting a lot of props, but I don't really recall the Texans having the pinnacle of secondary strength in the league...

 

But, I do believe Marinelli will make a diferrence, and a push from the front will help all layers of the D.

 

I agree we tend to see the dog house/penthouse mentality too often. At the same time, I am not sure that is really the case here.

 

More and more, I am thinking the staff believes the best way for Graham to get on the field and have an impact this year is as a nickel. I think that if Graham looks good enough in camp at nickel, DM can play full time FS and we don't have to move players around when in nickel, as was previously planned (DM to nickel and Steltz to FS). If Graham plays well enough, he can simply play nickel and DM stays at FS.

 

I have several problems w/ this line of thinking though:

 

One. I do not believe our CB position is set. Vasher has a lot to prove, and is coming off two weak/injury seasons. Tillman also is coming off an injured season, and further, is out now and may be for a while, even into the season. Bowman has looked great in camp, but the key knock on him in the draft was injury, and that is what we have seen thus far as well. His NFL injuries may not be related to his college injuries that had everyone concerned, but his inability to stay healthy has to be a concern regardless. Thus, I think it very possible Graham, as a backup CB, could see time this year as a starting CB.

 

Two. I fear the staff may believe, if the need arises, we can simply shift him back to CB. Problem I have w/ this is, while he did get starting experience last year, he is far from some seasoned veteran. I think we may be asking/expecting a bit much to spend an entire offseason working at other positions, only to move him back to CB when the needs comes up.

 

Three. I believe our current strategy is very short sighted. He showed very solid starting caliber potential at CB last year. Further, the staff said they believe he could excel as a FS. Yet we are not working him (and thus not developing him) at either of those two positions, which I would consider a more long term outlook. Instead, he is working almost solely at nickel, which just doesn't feel like a long term developmental plan. I would rather we left him at FS, even if there was zero expectation he could start this year, as he would have a full year to develop into a potential long term position. Ditto at CB. If he spends this year working only at nickel, it just feels like this year would be near wasted in terms of development. If we envision him one day being a CB or FS, spending a year solely at nickel just seems very short sighted.

 

[nfoligno]

I thing I think about w/ DM is the confidence factor. Someone pointed out last year that, as he began to do well as a return man, his play at nickel also went up. Many were quick to give Lovie the props for making DM is pet project, and I am not trying to take away from that. At the same time, I wonder how much was as simple as the confidence factor. He started to play well in the return game, and that confidence carried over to his nickel play.

 

Think about it. He may have started before, at various positions, but I don't think he ever had reason to play w/ confidence. Last year, his return duties may well have carried that confidence over.

 

But that goes back to the original point. Moving him all over the place, it is hard to gain confidence. I too wonder if we ever simply developed him at one position if he would have developed there.

 

I hear ya. The dog/penhouse thing may not be super applicable in this particular instance, but it still leaves me with far too many question on how this staff works these things out.

 

Your analysis on Graham I think is spot on. There does do be some mentality that all the guys in the secondary can just be ambidexterious at any position (CB-FS-SS-nickel-dime,etc.)

 

It seems like we hinder the development of many of these young guys by playing musical chairs. I truly wonder if D Manning would actually be a very good S right now, had we left him and let him develop a bit. We'll never know I suppose.

 

I just hope it works out. But I have my doubts. Hoke seems to be getting a lot of props, but I don't really recall the Texans having the pinnacle of secondary strength in the league...

 

But, I do believe Marinelli will make a diferrence, and a push from the front will help all layers of the D.

 

[madlithuanian]

Good point. Confidence goes a long way. Heck, much can be said for a lack of that w/ hester with his issues in the return game.

 

I thing I think about w/ DM is the confidence factor. Someone pointed out last year that, as he began to do well as a return man, his play at nickel also went up. Many were quick to give Lovie the props for making DM is pet project, and I am not trying to take away from that. At the same time, I wonder how much was as simple as the confidence factor. He started to play well in the return game, and that confidence carried over to his nickel play.

 

Think about it. He may have started before, at various positions, but I don't think he ever had reason to play w/ confidence. Last year, his return duties may well have carried that confidence over.

 

But that goes back to the original point. Moving him all over the place, it is hard to gain confidence. I too wonder if we ever simply developed him at one position if he would have developed there.

 

[AZ54]

I do not recall Orton "spending a whole year pouting". In fact, I thought he dealt w/ his 2nd season w/ class. Even in his rookie year, when he was replaced by Rex after leading the team to a winning record, I don't recall him complaining about the benching. I thought he took the high road, both that year and after.

 

He may have made comments about feeling like he should have been given an opportunity the following season to compete, but I just do not recall him spending the following season pouting.

 

 

I spent some time searching for that article where Orton talked about how he hadn't handled his second season the way he should have. I did find this blog post that mentions it back in Aug 2007:

 

http://www.dabearsblog.com/2007/08/remember_kyle_orton.php

********************************************************************************

John Mullin writes a terrific piece in today's Trib. Apparently, Orton has come to camp with a stronger arm and more intimidating physique. Ron Turner has called him lightyears better than he was as a ten-game winner (remember that?) two years ago. According to Mullin, there are two questions:

Can Orton emerge from the preseason as the No. 2 quarterback ahead of Brian Griese? And in the event that Rex Grossman does not work out, can Orton possibly play his way into becoming the franchise quarterback of the Bears' future? The answer to both is ... yes.

Not gonna lie...I'm interested. All of a sudden, the first preseason game looms not only as a showcase for the development of Rex Grossman but also for the re-invention of his fallen predecessor. Kyle Orton has the next month plus to establish himself as the the quarterback-in-the-wings and I'd be more than happy to see it happen.

********************************************************************************

***

 

I don't mean to imply he pouted publicly because he did handle things publicly in a professional manner. However, from his change in 2007 vs. 2006 it was clear he didn't work hard at competing for the second string job after Rex was declared the starter in the offseason and then Griese was brought in to be our #2. After leading us to multiple wins his rookie years the fans back then were expecting Orton to make a better showing than he did that year (2006), myself included.

 

Graham's situation IMO appears similar from the outside. Of course, he has had to deal with some position changes and that alone will reduce performance but he's also not new to our system like the rookies. It's all anecdotal stuff, hypothetical, whatever, because all I have to go on is the fact he does not appear to be making a standout impression on anyone, neither media or coaches. If you feel that is because his coverage is so good nobody will throw the ball his way that's fine. I'll wait for a second source to confirm this before getting on that bandwagon.

 

[Stinger226]

I thing I think about w/ DM is the confidence factor. Someone pointed out last year that, as he began to do well as a return man, his play at nickel also went up. Many were quick to give Lovie the props for making DM is pet project, and I am not trying to take away from that. At the same time, I wonder how much was as simple as the confidence factor. He started to play well in the return game, and that confidence carried over to his nickel play.

 

Think about it. He may have started before, at various positions, but I don't think he ever had reason to play w/ confidence. Last year, his return duties may well have carried that confidence over.

 

But that goes back to the original point. Moving him all over the place, it is hard to gain confidence. I too wonder if we ever simply developed him at one position if he would have developed there.

Im not sure he is in the doghouse, we have a new DB coach, and I think the moves are based on his opinion of who can play. Our perception of him being the next in line at CB was based on last year. With the weakness at FS they moved him there, and must have been lacking to fill that position, so they give the job to DM right before training camp begins. So no one at nickel, so moved him in there. With the passing teams we are playing early in the season, nickel will be on the field most of the time. So moving him to nickel isnt necessarily a demotion.

[defiantgiant]

I agree we tend to see the dog house/penthouse mentality too often. At the same time, I am not sure that is really the case here.

 

More and more, I am thinking the staff believes the best way for Graham to get on the field and have an impact this year is as a nickel. I think that if Graham looks good enough in camp at nickel, DM can play full time FS and we don't have to move players around when in nickel, as was previously planned (DM to nickel and Steltz to FS). If Graham plays well enough, he can simply play nickel and DM stays at FS.

 

I think this is spot on. It looks like the staff is going forward with a base secondary of Vasher/Bowman/Manning/Payne, which doesn't leave Graham a spot on the field. I can't imagine that the current scenario (with Manning doing both FS and nickel) is Plan A, so I guess it makes sense to move Graham to the nickel, if only so they can have a single guy at each spot.

 

I don't really know why he isn't getting a shot at corner. It seems like the FS move is on hold with Manning moving back there, but Graham was a perfectly good corner last season. Nfo, I think you're right that the staff appears to be assuming that they can move Graham back to CB in a pinch. Given that Tillman, Bowman, and Vasher all have injury concerns, I really hope they're right about that. They may need him at corner before the season's done.

[AZ54]

Finally a little love for Graham. The best part of this article is:

 

http://www.chicagobears.com/news/NewsStory.asp?story_id=5991

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*****

The 2007 fifth-round draft pick insists that he doesn’t have a preference in terms of a position.

 

“To be honest, I want to play wherever I can get on the field,” Graham said. “If it’s nickel, safety … I’ll play defensive tackle if I can play in a game. I just want to go out there, do what they ask me to do and just continue to be a team player. You just want to play and get better.”

********************************************************************************

*****

 

That's exactly how he needs to approach all this shuffling around. Hopefully he continues to settle into the nickel role. If he can solidify that spot for us it would be huge in terms of our depth. It would keep DManning at FS full time which I think helps him out mentally (he needs that). On top of that we'd have Bowman as our backup CB behind Tillman and Vasher, so far that looks to be like pretty good depth. Then we'd have DJ Moore battling with McBride for the 5th spot. Woodny Turenne might be in that mix too. Over at safety Afalava is starting to show up and appears to be on the radar for a roster spot.

[bradjock]

More Graham weirdness. This was in the Tribune today:

 

"Danieal Manning continued to nurse a hamstring, allowing Al Afalava to see reps with the first team at safety."

 

So Corey Graham has now fallen behind Al Afalava??? Not to mention that Afalava is another strong safety who's playing out of position at fs.

 

WTF???

[nfoligno]

I guess I still don't see it. As I recall, we brought in Griese, and there really was not much of a competition at any level for QB. Rex was handed the starting job. I recall this quite well as so many (including myself) felt he should have had to win the job, but it was handed to him. Similar, the backup job was basically handed to Griese. Orton was simply our #3.

 

I am sure Orton was not thrilled with going from a winning season as a rookie starting QB to not even being considered for more than #3 on the depth chart, but I simply do not recall him making an issue of it. Not just when talking to the media, but I don't even recall tid bits in the media which implied he was showing poor character in dealing w/ the situation. In fact, I think I recall more comments from Griese indicating he felt he should have had more opportunity to challenge for the starting job.

 

I also don't get questioning Orton based on his not winning higher than 3rd on the depth chart. One, I question whether he was ever given that opportunity. We brought in Griese for a reason. Two, even if there was a competition and Griese won, that doesn't mean Orton didn't take the offseason serious. Griese was a pretty accomplished veteran, and despite starting as a rookie, Orton was still raw in terms of development.

 

 

 

I spent some time searching for that article where Orton talked about how he hadn't handled his second season the way he should have. I did find this blog post that mentions it back in Aug 2007:

 

http://www.dabearsblog.com/2007/08/remember_kyle_orton.php

********************************************************************************

John Mullin writes a terrific piece in today's Trib. Apparently, Orton has come to camp with a stronger arm and more intimidating physique. Ron Turner has called him lightyears better than he was as a ten-game winner (remember that?) two years ago. According to Mullin, there are two questions:

Can Orton emerge from the preseason as the No. 2 quarterback ahead of Brian Griese? And in the event that Rex Grossman does not work out, can Orton possibly play his way into becoming the franchise quarterback of the Bears' future? The answer to both is ... yes.

Not gonna lie...I'm interested. All of a sudden, the first preseason game looms not only as a showcase for the development of Rex Grossman but also for the re-invention of his fallen predecessor. Kyle Orton has the next month plus to establish himself as the the quarterback-in-the-wings and I'd be more than happy to see it happen.

********************************************************************************

***

 

I don't mean to imply he pouted publicly because he did handle things publicly in a professional manner. However, from his change in 2007 vs. 2006 it was clear he didn't work hard at competing for the second string job after Rex was declared the starter in the offseason and then Griese was brought in to be our #2. After leading us to multiple wins his rookie years the fans back then were expecting Orton to make a better showing than he did that year (2006), myself included.

 

Graham's situation IMO appears similar from the outside. Of course, he has had to deal with some position changes and that alone will reduce performance but he's also not new to our system like the rookies. It's all anecdotal stuff, hypothetical, whatever, because all I have to go on is the fact he does not appear to be making a standout impression on anyone, neither media or coaches. If you feel that is because his coverage is so good nobody will throw the ball his way that's fine. I'll wait for a second source to confirm this before getting on that bandwagon.

 

[AZ54]

I can't really answer your question. I said many times it wasn't that Orton was publicly misbehaving, rather that he admitted he didn't dedicate himself the way he needed to. Here's one more link to once again show that he transformed himself entering the 2007 season and began to outperform Griese. I just can't find the article where he stated his change in attitude. Regardless it was obvious the difference in him from the start of the 2006 season to the start of 2007 season and everyone noticed it. Other than that we're going to have to agree to disagree.

 

Lately Graham has been saying that he doesn't care where he plays he just wants to get on the field. I'm hopeful he's back on track to become a key member of our secondary.

 

http://www.wearethepostmen.com/2007/08/02/...aster-stronger/

*************************************************************************

Although it’s early in training camp, Orton has in the eyes of many observers outperformed Griese, the veteran brought in last year in part because the organization wasn’t completely convinced Orton was capable of being a long-term NFL quarterback.

 

Orton remade himself physically over the course of the last year. He dropped not only weight but also the bitterness he felt over being demoted from a rookie starter in 2005 for 15 games, 10 of them victories, to little more than insurance, inactive for all 19 games in the Bears’ extended 2006 season.

 

Instead, he worked his way into what he says is the best shape of his life and rededicated himself in the Bears’ off-season programs.

 

And while coaches will make no predictions on the depth chart at this juncture, Orton has played his way into a competition that a year ago seemed to have left him behind, possibly for good.

[lemonej]

When I was at TC Graham looked decent at CB and he was not lined up at nickel DM was with Stelz at FS but as of yesterday it looks like Alfalava has now passed Stelz as the safety in the nickel package.The guys that you should be worried about is Stelz and McBride because Lovie and the coaches are starting to make positive comments about Woody Turenne also.

[AZ54]

I have no problem if McBride doesn't make the cut. I think we know what he is and if someone beats him out then we're a better team. Steltz hasn't shown enough for me to think differently of him either but I think he's in a safer position than McBride is.

[lemonej]

AZ54 I don't know if you noticed or not but it seems that the teams that run this defense go through a lot of DBs. Tampa has only one long time DB that has been playing in this scheme and that is Ronde Barber. They even let John Lynch go FA. I would say Tillman and Vasher are starting to reach their expiration dates in this D because as with most positions in this zone type scheme speed is very important and it is obvious that both have lost a step or two. Since JA has been here he has drafted DBs and DLs.

[AZ54]

Perhaps there's some truth that but I'd have to see data on other teams turnover at these positions. The NFL is tough and these are the smaller players in a physical game. WR tend to be bigger (6' and over) but CBs tend to be smaller (5'9"- 6') because they need to change direction quickly. Tillman and Vasher might be nearing their expiration date but I think they have a couple more good years left. At least I hope they do. You are right, JA is always throwing more late round picks into the mix, he definitely prefers the numbers game with DBs. This year we got Afalava late.

[nfoligno]

I was under the impression speed was not the greatest asset in this scheme. Speed is a huge key when you play a lot of man, but less so when you play a lot of zone, which is a huge aspect of our scheme. Now, we may run different schemes, but when you talk about scheme, I assume you mean cover two. In a cover two, I don't think speed is quite as essential as you say. The CB plays his zone, and then will release to the safety on a deeper pattern.

 

Heck, just look at both Tillman and Vasher. Neither have ever been considered speed guys. In fact, that was always one of Tillman's biggest weaknesses. Vasher isn't slow, but I wuold argue he is more quick than fast.

 

 

 

AZ54 I don't know if you noticed or not but it seems that the teams that run this defense go through a lot of DBs. Tampa has only one long time DB that has been playing in this scheme and that is Ronde Barber. They even let John Lynch go FA. I would say Tillman and Vasher are starting to reach their expiration dates in this D because as with most positions in this zone type scheme speed is very important and it is obvious that both have lost a step or two. Since JA has been here he has drafted DBs and DLs.

 

[lemonej]

I was under the impression speed was not the greatest asset in this scheme. Speed is a huge key when you play a lot of man, but less so when you play a lot of zone, which is a huge aspect of our scheme. Now, we may run different schemes, but when you talk about scheme, I assume you mean cover two. In a cover two, I don't think speed is quite as essential as you say. The CB plays his zone, and then will release to the safety on a deeper pattern.

 

Heck, just look at both Tillman and Vasher. Neither have ever been considered speed guys. In fact, that was always one of Tillman's biggest weaknesses. Vasher isn't slow, but I wuold argue he is more quick than fast.

Nfo what I meant was closing speed. You know this scheme allows for recievers to catch the ball then yoiu quickly come up and close on the play.That is what Vasher isn't doing anymore and Tillman can close quickly but often wiffs on the tackle. According to a lot of the beat writers Vasher is lacking in confidence which leads to hesitancy and takes away from your speed also. David Haugh(Tribune) wrote an article about Vasher where the new DB coach had to remind him that he was in full pads and he needed to use them.

 

I understand your assessment and the so called stereotype of cover 2 CBs but the Bears haven't been drafting slow pokes but what they have been drafting is guys that may have been injured but had good speed prior to getting injured.See Alphonso Marshall, Corey Graham and Zack Bowman in college. Now lets talk about 2 guys that were drafted to play in the Bears secondary that can fly. Devin Hester and Daniel Manning drafted in tha same round in the same year were both expected to make an impact in the secondary. Regardless of what the so called impression is about Cover 2 DBs the Bears have been going after guys that can run on the field. There is a reason for Lovie liking guys to be lighter in the front seven its for quickness and speed.

[AZ54]

I would certainly like to have a FS with good speed in this defense. Yes, it's often a zone scheme but the weaknesses of that zone are in places where a guy with speed can still make the play. Danieal Manning would be a great fit for us except for his poor angles and weakness in reading the play. Some better more physical tackling would be nice to see too.

 

I think Afalava is set to standout this preseason simply because he has good (not great) speed and hits like a ton of bricks. We all like those hits. Not saying he's a starter for us just that he'll open some eyes in these games.

[Mongo3451]

I would certainly like to have a FS with good speed in this defense. Yes, it's often a zone scheme but the weaknesses of that zone are in places where a guy with speed can still make the play. Danieal Manning would be a great fit for us except for his poor angles and weakness in reading the play. Some better more physical tackling would be nice to see too.

 

I think Afalava is set to standout this preseason simply because he has good (not great) speed and hits like a ton of bricks. We all like those hits. Not saying he's a starter for us just that he'll open some eyes in these games.

I have been hoping for awhile that we would develop another safety that likes to hit. Our defense has lacked that identity as Mike Brown has deteriorated. Though Brown would lay a solid hit on you, he was never considered someone that would de-cleat you. Afalava seems to have that reputation and the burst required to deliver it. I'm rooting for him. I want that identity back.