Consider me uninformed

[nfoligno]

I have no argument w/ any of that, but....

 

While Rex and Orton may not be franchise QB (understatement) at the same time, I do not believe MM did much to help them play at a higher level. And as I have argued before, I believe MM was brought in to help the QBs, rather than being a player needing great surrounding talent to play well.

 

I agree we had a lot of young WRs, but (a) I do not believe MM filled that leadership role and ( I do not believe MM had much to do w/ the development of those young WRs.

 

 

 

NFO let me clarify this by saying I don't disagree with the point you're making but believe that also this team thought they had their QB(Grossman) in place and thought of Moose as getting him a weapon. With Berrian already being here and I think we had Jammiin Elliott,Wade and Gage he was viewed as an instant veteran leader to this young group and was thought to be a number 1 WR because none of this group had shown they were going to be the guy before he got here.

 

[madlithuanian]

I think that's the crux of your argument, and where I simply just don't agree with you. I think we got red chip play and production given the circumstances. I'd even maybe settle for pink (a mix of red and white), but not white. You make it seem like any jabroni WR off any team could have done the same. You can make theories how another receiver would have done similar, but the fact is, you cannot prove that.

 

I have no warm spot in my heart fro him, but I still think he was good more often than not given the cirumstances at the time.

 

we paid blue chip market for white chip production and play.

 

[madlithuanian]

I simply think you bought into the used car-salesman's sales pitch on MM. Did you really think one guy was going to turn Rex into Montana and our other receivers into John Taylors?

 

I only expected a vet that would be better than what we had, garnish some respect from officials and from opposing defenses. I think he did that.

 

I have no argument w/ any of that, but....

 

While Rex and Orton may not be franchise QB (understatement) at the same time, I do not believe MM did much to help them play at a higher level. And as I have argued before, I believe MM was brought in to help the QBs, rather than being a player needing great surrounding talent to play well.

 

I agree we had a lot of young WRs, but (a) I do not believe MM filled that leadership role and ( I do not believe MM had much to do w/ the development of those young WRs.

 

[lemonej]

I have no argument w/ any of that, but....

 

While Rex and Orton may not be franchise QB (understatement) at the same time, I do not believe MM did much to help them play at a higher level. And as I have argued before, I believe MM was brought in to help the QBs, rather than being a player needing great surrounding talent to play well.

 

I agree we had a lot of young WRs, but (a) I do not believe MM filled that leadership role and ( I do not believe MM had much to do w/ the development of those young WRs.

Again I'm not saying that either were franchise material but I believe the organization thought that Grossman was a potential franchise QB and what helps a franchise QB develop better than a good running game? A solid and reliable WR. Based on his previous season's numbers and what I heard from the team during that time Moose was brought in for his ability and to be a veteran presence in the lockerroom. Now since it has been confirmed that the lockerroom is ruled by Kruetz his presence was needed to mentor our young WRs. I believe Bernard Berrian for one is a perfect example of a guy who benefitted tremendously from Moose's presence being here. Justin Gage blossoming after he left here playing the same way Moose plays is no coincidence to me. Bobby Wade mugging for the cameras could be somewhat tied to MM since its obvious MM wants a career in broadcasting or TV after he is done playing.LOL

[CrackerDog]

I have no argument w/ any of that, but....

 

While Rex and Orton may not be franchise QB (understatement) at the same time, I do not believe MM did much to help them play at a higher level. And as I have argued before, I believe MM was brought in to help the QBs, rather than being a player needing great surrounding talent to play well.

 

I agree we had a lot of young WRs, but (a) I do not believe MM filled that leadership role and ( I do not believe MM had much to do w/ the development of those young WRs.

 

Why don't you repeat yourself some more. Jeez!

 

You're totally wrong. Moose wasn't a great signing but we was nowhere near a bust either. If you could extract your head from your ass for 5 minutes and read all the comments from everyone else, you'd see that.

[madlithuanian]

Good points on Gage and BB...

 

Again I'm not saying that either were franchise material but I believe the organization thought that Grossman was a potential franchise QB and what helps a franchise QB develop better than a good running game? A solid and reliable WR. Based on his previous season's numbers and what I heard from the team during that time Moose was brought in for his ability and to be a veteran presence in the lockerroom. Now since it has been confirmed that the lockerroom is ruled by Kruetz his presence was needed to mentor our young WRs. I believe Bernard Berrian for one is a perfect example of a guy who benefitted tremendously from Moose's presence being here. Justin Gage blossoming after he left here playing the same way Moose plays is no coincidence to me. Bobby Wade mugging for the cameras could be somewhat tied to MM since its obvious MM wants a career in broadcasting or TV after he is done playing.LOL

 

[LT2_3]

One cool thing is that we can agree to disagree. I thought Moose at least fulfilled his role as being the Bears #1 receiver for the first couple of years. In fact, he was our leading receiver his first 2 years. I don't think it should be his fault that our QBs sucked. I actually would be curious how he would do with Cutler as QB. I think he would have done much better at that point.

 

David Terrell was our leading receiver once. That doesn't mean he was a good player, much less starter, for us.

 

Ok. I wasn't saying that being the leading receiver means alot, what I'm saying is that if the leading receiver doesn't give you the stats you are looking for, maybe you should look at other positions and perhaps playcalling as well before throwing the leading receiver under the bus. The year Terrell was our leading receiver, Hutchinson was our QB most of the time.

 

Sure, w/ a good QB (much less Cutler) his numbers would have gone up. But that is part of my whole problem. He was brought in w/ the belief he could improve the QBs. I am not saying anyone expected numbers like he posted his last year in Carolina, but I do believe the staff felt like he was the sort of WR that could elevate the QBs we had, rather than the sort of WR who can look good w/ a good QB. Sorry, but most NFL WRs can look good w/ a good QB.

 

I'm not convinced that Moose was brought in to "improve" the QBs. I think he was brought in to give them a more consistent and reliable target, but like in 2005, his QB was the rookie Orton for 15 games who only threw for 1869 yards and Moose accounted for 750 of the 2201 team passing yards. That's over one third of the team's receiving yards for the year. That's a solid performance in my book for a guy regarded as a red chip player.

 

In 2006, Moose had 863 of the team's 3446 team passing yards which works out to one quarter of the team's receiving yards. That's still pretty good considering that Berrian stepped up with 775 receiving yards of his own. Again, I think a solid Red chip performance.

 

So how do you compare Moose to the journeymen Booker and Lloyd we signed last year? (see below but we're talking about the difference between red chip and white chip players here)

 

Just curious, why am I limited to the two players we brought in last year, like those are the only journeymen guys out there?

 

You're not limited to those guys. Pick another journeyman (guy on his 3rd team at least) that signed a lower end deal that provided 25% of a team's receiving yards in a season. Pick any one of the obviously countless examples out there. {/sarcasm}

 

I'm sorry, but I just do not see what MM did that is so special, or so different from what many WRs in the league could do. His stats were not great, but I would even argue the stats were better than the actual. He would have a couple good games, w/ many no-shows. Further, as I have argued before, most starting WRs are bound to has some stats w/ their name. Just like if you give a RB enough carries, even w/ a 3.1 ypc avg, he can still end up w/ some decent yardage totals.

 

To me, MM simply did little to help the offense. We can talk day and night about how he was hurt by the offense and QB, but part of why he was added was to aid that same group. IMHO, he did more to hurt than help. He didn't draw the double teams, as expected. His route running was never consistent, and the only thing less consistent was his hands.

 

I never said he was special. In fact, I'm saying he's not, but that's what you should expect from a red chip player.

 

Yeah. I know you've argued more than just stats. He was a bit prima donnaish throwing the QBs under the bus occasionally, but I expect that from the position. It's part of the personality most of the time. I hate to bring FF into this, but I tend to shy away from individual players and draft from systems. For instance, the Colts #3 guy last year was worth as much or more than the Bears #1 receiver. If a WR changes teams, I usually stay away from them because you never know what you're gonna get. Housh in Seattle and Coles in Cinci this year are examples. I guess I'm not surprised by Moose's performance and behavior so I see it all as what I expected and therefore a "not bad" signing. But that doesn't mean "good."

 

One, I would agree that of all the positions, WRs often are the biggest talkers and showboats. At the same time, I do not agree that you expect a WR to throw his QB under the bus. Frankly, that is something often reserved for Terrell Owens. usually, the WR says or does dumb things, but not often does a WR show so little care for his QB. It happens, yes. But I don't think near often enough that you should expect or accept it.

 

Two, when talking about the "beyond the stats" stuff, I mean more than just the times he threw his QB under the bus. How about the drops? So often Orton or Rex were bashed, but damn, they would put the ball in his hands, or hit him in the numbers, and he still dropped the ball. As often as I read about it happening w/ others, I do not recall a single article talking about MM putting him the extra hours w/ either the QBs or the young WRs.

 

Okay, I refuse to argue about what you haven't read. That's like saying that I haven't read about water on the Moon and Mars so therefore there can't be any. I also refuse to buy into the media blowing up a non-story to entice more readers - because of course Urlacher called Cutler a pussy afterall. To use your own logic about what I haven't read, but I never read that Moose ever had any problems with the players that he supposedly threw under the bus so it was all made up in the media. Right?

 

When Cutler signed on w/ the Bears, you read tons of stories of his working w/ Olsen and other receivers, outside of team activities. There were numerous stories of Pace working well after practice w/ Williams and others. Louis, a 7th round rookie, talked about how impressed he was a future HOF player like Pace would spend so much time w/ a guy questionable to even make the team. You read stories like this all the time, but I don't recall ever hearing from Berrian or others that MM was helping them.

 

Whaaaaaaaat? I read about Moose working out with rex the summer after he signed and he went to his wedding too. Again, can we dispense with the things you haven't read about?

 

No, whether looking at the stats, or those things that don't show up on a stat sheet, I just do not believe MM did much to help the team. I believe middle of the road FAs could likely have done just as much.

 

Awesome. Here's your chance to defintively prove me wrong. In theory, to prove that journeymen WRs can be expected to produce as well as Moose, you really should be able to find 3 examples where a lower tier FA WR came in and provided between 25% and 33% of a teams receiving yards in consecutive years. I'll be happy with only 2. Now have at it!

 

There you go again with the "not good" = "bad" thing again.

 

I look at it like the Blue chip, Red chip, White chip method of player evaluation.

 

Blue chip = Total stud in his prime with no health issues

Red chip = either a steady solid starter, a fallen blue chip player due to injury, or a player that has shown talent, but isn't proven as a starter over a 16 game season

White chip = Fungible commodity that could probably be replaced easily without much drop off in performance

 

The Blue chip guys never make it to the free market. Turner was an unknown with no more than 502 yards in a season before signing with Atlanta. Brees had an injury to his throwing shoulder that no one knew for sure how it would heal. Both were red chip guys. Daniels was a solid red chip guy, and Moose was a red chip guy due to his age (32) and the fact that his previous seasons were up and down and not consistent.

 

My point is that occasionally you can get a red chip prospect that ends up performing at a blue chip level, but that's the exception to the rule. In free agency, you end up paying blue chip prices for red chip players. Most of the time, they play like red chip players - which are overpaid by the nature of the system.

 

Okay, so you are saying the games elite players don't hit FA. Okay, I can go along w/ that. But I do not believe that is what you said before. You said, "but a guy off the street that you don't have to give anything up but money for? No. They aren't that good or they wouldn't be available".

 

No, that's what I meant and said the first time. To rephrase using the previous statement represented by the word "that", "but a guy off the street that you don't have to give anything up but money for? No. They aren't going to make spectacular plays and aren't going to take over a game."

 

There is a huge gap between saying "aren't that good" blue chip players. You define red chip players, and said this group of players are available, but in your definition, red chip players can be good players. No, you don't get an Orlando Pace in his prime. You more often get him after. A QB like Brees? Frankly, I think he is an exception. W/ or w/o the arm injury, he was going to be on the free market as the team had drafted Rivers prior to Brees becoming a pro bowl player. But I would agree that is an unusual situation.

 

If we paid blue chip price for a red chip player, and got red chip production. Fine. That isn't unusual, and sort of expected when dealing w/ FAs. But IMHO, we paid blue chip market for white chip production and play.

 

Like I said earlier, now it's your turn to find a couple of "white chip" FA WRs that produced between 25-33% of their team's receiving yards.