Turner admits short yardage mistake!

[AZ54]

Nfol,

 

Thanks for posting what I've been thinking the last few days. Everyone that complains that Wolfe shouldn't run up the middle never once complains about his previous 6 yard gain up the middle. It's amazing. In fact, Wolfe has been running with more power this year than last and it's been obvious on many plays. He worked on his lower body strength this offseason and it shows. While I find it totally acceptable to have Wolfe run up the middle I agree he is not a short yardage back and shouldn't have been in on that play call.

 

What would be great to see once in awhile is our Oline open up a true hole in the middle for Wolfe to run through. He's got more than enough quickness to beat the second level and get to the third level and pick up some big gains. We just can't block for him, nor any RB.

[nfoligno]

First, my point was that numerous posters complain not just about Wolfe running up the middle on 3rd and 1, but ever running up the middle. That was part of my argument. If Wolfe is ever to be more than a 3rd down back, he needs to prove he is capable of running inside as well as out.

 

Second, just to throw something out there. 3rd and 1 is an obvious up the gut run, right? If you are the defense though, and you see the diminuitive Wolfe in the backfield, might you not think the play is going to be something else. I am not for this play, but I can see how it could be argued that w/ Wolfe in there, a run up the middle is less expected than if we put AP in there.

 

Third, something that really has not been factored here is, no matter what RB we had back there, that play was dead. This really has not been talked about, but Seattle had a defender in the backfield by the time Wolfe took the handoff. I don't care if the handoff was to Forte, AP or Wolfe. That play was dead as soon as it started, and before you blast Turner for that, watch the replay and take a look at the OL.

 

Wolfe being in there on 3rd and 1 is not great, but what just is not getting talked about here is, how much did it matter. Forte has been running w/ cement in his feet. The OL has either been pushed backward or simply allowed penetration. Right now, it doesn't matter what RB we have in the backfield. Frankly, IMHO, 3rd and 1 is a passing down for us at the moment.

 

NFO - It's more about down and distance than the specific call. That call is not bad on first or second. But on third and short, the primary call in all levels of football is a power run up the middle. Everyone knows this. It's the offense saying, "We're getting one yard, and there is nothing you can do about it." But since it's such an obvious play, there is nearly no deception...which is why the play-action, QB roll out, toss to the TE works so well in that specific situation. So, to run Wolfe up the middle in that situation is simply a bad call. Turner admitted it, but, to be quite honest, I don't know he attempted after how horribly it worked in Minnesota last year. That play, for that situation, for that personnel, for that down and distance, should have been scratched from the playbook.

 

[nfoligno]

LOL

 

 

You are right. They don't work in the NFL, they post on this message board......

 

[nfoligno]

Wait a minute. Can you name one poster on this board who thinks Turner is "infalible?" Heck, is there a poster on this board who would even go so far as to say Turner is a "great" OC? I don't think so. If the question was posed, is Turner a top 16 OC, you might find some takers, but frankly, that isn't saying "that" much.

 

I don't think anyone here considered Turner close to the level you talk about. I think it is more a matter of defending a coach who some consider the worst OC in the NFL, or darn close to it. My point is, just because he makes some bad calls, that doesn't make him a bad OC. My point is every OC in the game makes questionable calls, some of which make Turner's bad calls look a lot better. See my Jason "Golden Boy" Garrett story.

 

As for the final part, when you say, "some on this board" I think you and I both know you are talking about one individual, and I get it. Yes, at times I too feel there is a belief that if you are employed in the NFL you are smarter than anyone else. While that is often true, it simply is not always the case. Like w/ the Wolfe play, you, I and many screamed this was bad before the snap. Turner admitted as much later. Thus, even the "expert" made a mistake we novices would not have made. So yes, you and I agree on in that sense. But in general, I do think you tend to trash Turner for each and every little thing. Does he make bad calls. Hell yes. But so does every freaking OC in the game.

 

I mentioned this in another thread, but IMHO, Turner did a pretty solid job last year, particularly when you consider what he had to work with. This year, I think he has done a pretty damn good job. Then I start to think about something. Last year, while he did not have a great QB, he had one that was more managable than Rex was. Further, rather than Benson, he had Forte. I am starting to think that, a big part of Turner's early year crap coaching may have a lot more to simply due w/ players and personnel. A coach can only do so much if he doesn't have the players, and the players do not execute. Over the last two seasons, we have had more talent and consistent players on offense, and suddenly Turner doesn't look like such a bad OC. Maybe he was never as bad as we made him out to be, but the talent was worse.

 

The point I'm making is that some on here act as if Turner is infallible, and can't be questioned. On this play specifically, members of this board, including me, crucified Turner for it. All we were met with was, "You don't know because you're not in the NFL." Well, here is a guy in the NFL who says that he got it wrong. He admits to making a stupid call.

 

As for Wolfe, I do think he's more than a one trick pony. He is not, however, a power back, 3rd and short, run it up the pipe guy. As for Turner overall, I also think he's improved this year, and I've said as much. This is simply more about some on this board who act as if we, the mere football fans, have no clue, and the coaches are unquestionable in their decisions.

 

[nfoligno]

While I am not saying I agree w/ the top 5 aspect, how much do you think others factor talent. We as fans often think more highly of our own talent than most around the league. But since Turner showed up....

 

How often have we had a QB the league would considered good? Remember, it all starts w/ the QB. Hard to look great on offense when you are going through 3 QBs (all of which suck) per season.

 

How often have we had an OL that would be considered average, much less good? Last time I recall our having an OL that was worth a damn, we went to the SB.

 

How often have we had a WR that was worth jack? Yes, I realize your opinion that our WRs are better than they have shown, but (a) w/o a QB that talent just didn't have the path to emerge and ( we are talking about the perception of a coach, and thus perception is key. If the perception is we have not had any legit WRs, then when talking about the perception of the coach, it becomes reality.

 

While we have had our share of talent at RB, consistency is a big issue. We had TJ, then TJ and Benson, then Benson, then Forte. One thing I have always heard is, it is difficult for a coach to develop a good looking unit when turnover is high. When every season you have a different RB, or RBs have different roles, it makes things difficult.

 

Am I saying he is top 5? No. But I do think you have to consider the talent we have provided our offense through the years. You said yourself Turner is looking a lot better this year. Well, he finally has a QB to utilize. Remember, it all starts w/ the QB. Look around the league. Most of the teams that suck today lack a QB. Look at a team like Carolina, who prior to this year, was thought to have a good OC, but now that Delhomme sucks, their offense and offensive coach are in question.

 

Ron Turner - I just don't see it. And, frankly, if someone says that, then I have to question their opinion on this matter. Even the casual fan can recognize that Turner isn't in the top five. Unless, of course, I'm forgetting about when he completely baffled opponents with his play calling on a consistent basis, or coached an offensive team that scored well above league average for an extended period of time.

 

[nfoligno]

Yea, especially w/ Jones out, we need to use Wolfe more than just as a scat back. If he can't run inside, then we know what we have in him, but we need to try him at all areas to see what we have. Wolfe not only gained 6 on that prior inside run, but looked very good in doing so. Frankly, it was sort of comical how he "hid" behind the big OL. I swear he gained the yards because the defenders couldn't find him.

 

3rd and 1 is not a situation Wolfe should be in there, but...

 

(a) what has not been talked about is, no matter what RB we had back there, the play was dead. The defense blew up our line on the play, and Wolfe was hit well in the backfield. If Cutler handed off to Brandon Jacobs, he would have been stuffed. It isn't like Wolfe hit the LOS and was stopped because he wasn't strong enough to drive forward for the 1st. He was hit probably 3 or 4 yards behind the LOS. It just wouldn't matter of Wolfe or Forte or AP were in there. We would have been stuffed regardless.

 

( just curious, but for all the posters who say we should have had a power runner in there, should we have given McKie the ball. You know, that popular quick FB handoff? Yea, that play is real popular around here

 

To me, it comes down to this. Should Wolfe have been on the field on 3rd and 1? No. Would it have made a difference if we had another RB in there? No. W/ the play of our OL right now, 3rd and 1 is a passing down.

 

Nfol,

 

Thanks for posting what I've been thinking the last few days. Everyone that complains that Wolfe shouldn't run up the middle never once complains about his previous 6 yard gain up the middle. It's amazing. In fact, Wolfe has been running with more power this year than last and it's been obvious on many plays. He worked on his lower body strength this offseason and it shows. While I find it totally acceptable to have Wolfe run up the middle I agree he is not a short yardage back and shouldn't have been in on that play call.

 

What would be great to see once in awhile is our Oline open up a true hole in the middle for Wolfe to run through. He's got more than enough quickness to beat the second level and get to the third level and pick up some big gains. We just can't block for him, nor any RB.

 

[bowlingtwig]

Yea, especially w/ Jones out, we need to use Wolfe more than just as a scat back. If he can't run inside, then we know what we have in him, but we need to try him at all areas to see what we have. Wolfe not only gained 6 on that prior inside run, but looked very good in doing so. Frankly, it was sort of comical how he "hid" behind the big OL. I swear he gained the yards because the defenders couldn't find him.

 

3rd and 1 is not a situation Wolfe should be in there, but...

 

(a) what has not been talked about is, no matter what RB we had back there, the play was dead. The defense blew up our line on the play, and Wolfe was hit well in the backfield. If Cutler handed off to Brandon Jacobs, he would have been stuffed. It isn't like Wolfe hit the LOS and was stopped because he wasn't strong enough to drive forward for the 1st. He was hit probably 3 or 4 yards behind the LOS. It just wouldn't matter of Wolfe or Forte or AP were in there. We would have been stuffed regardless.

 

( just curious, but for all the posters who say we should have had a power runner in there, should we have given McKie the ball. You know, that popular quick FB handoff? Yea, that play is real popular around here

 

To me, it comes down to this. Should Wolfe have been on the field on 3rd and 1? No. Would it have made a difference if we had another RB in there? No. W/ the play of our OL right now, 3rd and 1 is a passing down.

With the state of our Oline almost every down and situation is a passing down. NFO, its funny how I have seen myself agreeing with you more and more over the past year but you right on about this. That play was dead to begin with however in a 3rd and 1 situation and we are going run the ball I think I would almost prefer to put Peterson back there if they really want to rest Forte. Peterson has shown the ability to fight for those tough yards and he has shown the ability to run the ball up the gut and be successful at it.

[nfoligno]

I agree. I think everyone agrees, including Turner, 3rd and 1 is not a good play to have Wolfe in there. As much as the problem is OL, I also think Forte simply is not running well. To me, he currently seems to lack speed, quickness, power and vision. Basically everything that made him great last year. Whether the reason is injury, confidence, whatever, I think we need to be playing a lot more of AP, and I am not even a fan of AP like some. Hell, I wanted to cut him. But at the moment, I think AP is probably our best runner, and I would absolutely use him on 3rd and 1.

 

Also, something else I noticed, on that 3rd and 1 play, Wolfe was set damn near 10 yards into the backfield. I could not believe how far back he was. Now, I am not sure if that is something we do w/ Wolfe, that we would not have done w/ AP or Forte, but Wolfe lining up so deep w/o question (in my mind at least) factored into that play being a bust. On 3rd and 1, you need plays that are quick. For example, you would not use a delayed handoff on 3rd and 1. The defense is coming, and all a delayed handoff does is give the defense more time to get into the backfield. While our play on that 3rd down may not have been a delayed handoff, the distance Wolfe had to run before getting the ball had the same effect.

 

With the state of our Oline almost every down and situation is a passing down. NFO, its funny how I have seen myself agreeing with you more and more over the past year but you right on about this. That play was dead to begin with however in a 3rd and 1 situation and we are going run the ball I think I would almost prefer to put Peterson back there if they really want to rest Forte. Peterson has shown the ability to fight for those tough yards and he has shown the ability to run the ball up the gut and be successful at it.

 

[jason]

Wait a minute. Can you name one poster on this board who thinks Turner is "infalible?" Heck, is there a poster on this board who would even go so far as to say Turner is a "great" OC? I don't think so. If the question was posed, is Turner a top 16 OC, you might find some takers, but frankly, that isn't saying "that" much.

 

As for the final part, when you say, "some on this board" I think you and I both know you are talking about one individual, and I get it. Yes, at times I too feel there is a belief that if you are employed in the NFL you are smarter than anyone else. While that is often true, it simply is not always the case. Like w/ the Wolfe play, you, I and many screamed this was bad before the snap. Turner admitted as much later. Thus, even the "expert" made a mistake we novices would not have made. So yes, you and I agree on in that sense. But in general, I do think you tend to trash Turner for each and every little thing. Does he make bad calls. Hell yes. But so does every freaking OC in the game.

 

You answered your own question. I just didn't feel like calling him out specifically...even though he has replied in this thread with more of the same nonsense that insinuates the infallibility of the coaches simply because they are in the NFL (even though this entire thread is about an NFL coach questioning himself on the very same play several of us hated when he ran it before and didn't learn his lesson).

 

As for the overall ability and what not, I've come out and said that Turner probably knows more about football than anyone on this board (at least in the sense of calling plays). On the other hand, I think he's often too far into the forest to see the trees, and outthinks himself by trying to be too cute. I also feel that he locks himself into an idea (i.e. run the ball up the middle on 3rd and short), even though he doesn't put in the right players. Regarding bad calls by OCs in the league, yes, they all make mistakes. I just think that Turner makes far more boneheaded mistakes than many I've seen. It's like taking a hard math test: I can understand missing the difficult ones, with equations, letters, and all sorts of various disciplines going into the formula. But I can't accept someone at his level missing so many of the little ones, the common sense ones.

[nfoligno]

If I may use your analogy...

 

How many other students math exams have you studied? While I am sure you have glanced at some, I doubt you examine any of their exams to the same degree.

 

Does Turner make some questionable, or even boneheaded calls? Sure. But when you say other OC's may make mistakes but not as many or on such a scale, I would argue that is only your perception because you watch Turner far more than the rest, and do so w/ a far more critcial eye.

 

I hate to continue to go back to it, but the Jason Garrett example I gave just seems like such a great example. Here is an OC who was the golden boy of not only Dallas, but the league as he was supposedly turning down HC offers on the belief he would very soon be the HC in Dallas. Throwing it twice from the one yard line when your run game was AVERAGING 8 yards per cary is worse than even the Wolfe example.

 

I bet you if you were to ask a Phily fan, NE fan, Baltimore fan, whatever you want, you would find out their fans could give you just as many examples of boneheaded playcalls by their coaches. Thats just the way it goes.

 

You answered your own question. I just didn't feel like calling him out specifically...even though he has replied in this thread with more of the same nonsense that insinuates the infallibility of the coaches simply because they are in the NFL (even though this entire thread is about an NFL coach questioning himself on the very same play several of us hated when he ran it before and didn't learn his lesson).

 

As for the overall ability and what not, I've come out and said that Turner probably knows more about football than anyone on this board (at least in the sense of calling plays). On the other hand, I think he's often too far into the forest to see the trees, and outthinks himself by trying to be too cute. I also feel that he locks himself into an idea (i.e. run the ball up the middle on 3rd and short), even though he doesn't put in the right players. Regarding bad calls by OCs in the league, yes, they all make mistakes. I just think that Turner makes far more boneheaded mistakes than many I've seen. It's like taking a hard math test: I can understand missing the difficult ones, with equations, letters, and all sorts of various disciplines going into the formula. But I can't accept someone at his level missing so many of the little ones, the common sense ones.

 

[Mongo3451]

I've been reading all the posts on this topic and have some observations.

 

1st, I thought it was refreshing for Turner to come out and say he messed. To me, him admitting the mistake shows he's human and willing to look himself in the mirror.

 

2nd, in defense of Turner. Unless you work for an NFL franchise as a coach, you don't know more about delivering "High quality H2O" than this guy, let alone being an OC. Am I saying shut up and don't criticize him? Hell no. But don't act like he's an idiot and you know more. It just takes from individual credibilty.

 

Lastly, while I hate seeing Wolfe getting stuffed, I do understand the concept. If Wolfe breaks just one run from the inside, it changes the gameplan forever when he comes in the game. (the whole playbook is opened for hom now and he becomes a true weapon) It's kinda like using Hester on the WR screen and reverses last year. They never worked. Now they do.

[nfoligno]

2nd, in defense of Turner. Unless you work for an NFL franchise as a coach, you don't know more about delivering "High quality H2O" than this guy, let alone being an OC. Am I saying shut up and don't criticize him? Hell no. But don't act like he's an idiot and you know more. It just takes from individual credibilty.

 

Before Jason even has an opportunity, this is an argument I have never cared for. You say you are not telling fans to shut up and not criticize, but at the same time, you essentially are, and further saying anyone who does not "takes from their individual credibility".

 

By the rationale, we can never question player or coach. I just find that laughable. Wanny was an NFL coach. You never questioned his decision making? Jauron? Shoop? Come on. Everyone here has questioned moves/calls by our staff, GM, etc., yet by your argument, we are thus only taking away from our own individual credibility.

 

Further, I was watching the game and saw us line up Forte in the backfield on 3rd and 1, and said it was a mistake. I come on to this board later and said the same. According to you, I have not qualified to question the playcall of Turner, as he is a NFL coach and I am not. And yet, later Turner said it was a mistake. Thus, even though I am not a NFL coach, I was capable of seeing a play as a mistake.

 

No, I do not believe I could ever be an OC. Its kind of like the GM. Could I do decent in the 1st round of the draft. I think I could. But in the later rounds, could I do well? Far more questionable. Could I also manage the cap and build the entire team. Not very likely. Same w/ OC. Could I call a play here and there successfully. Yes, I think I could. Could I playcall an entire game. Hell no. But that doesn't mean I am so uninformed that I can't question particular playcalls.

 

Lastly, while I hate seeing Wolfe getting stuffed, I do understand the concept. If Wolfe breaks just one run from the inside, it changes the gameplan forever when he comes in the game. (the whole playbook is opened for hom now and he becomes a true weapon) It's kinda like using Hester on the WR screen and reverses last year. They never worked. Now they do.

 

While I am not disagreeing w/ your Wolfe point in general, I am not sure I go along w/ your example. IMHO, Hester not doing well on screens last year compared to this year is more about the QB than hester. Cutler delivers the ball quickly, while Orton did not, and that makes a huge difference.

[jason]

2nd, in defense of Turner. Unless you work for an NFL franchise as a coach, you don't know more about delivering "High quality H2O" than this guy, let alone being an OC. Am I saying shut up and don't criticize him? Hell no. But don't act like he's an idiot and you know more. It just takes from individual credibilty.

 

Before Jason even has an opportunity, this is an argument I have never cared for. You say you are not telling fans to shut up and not criticize, but at the same time, you essentially are, and further saying anyone who does not "takes from their individual credibility".

 

By the rationale, we can never question player or coach. I just find that laughable. Wanny was an NFL coach. You never questioned his decision making? Jauron? Shoop? Come on. Everyone here has questioned moves/calls by our staff, GM, etc., yet by your argument, we are thus only taking away from our own individual credibility.

 

Further, I was watching the game and saw us line up Forte in the backfield on 3rd and 1, and said it was a mistake. I come on to this board later and said the same. According to you, I have not qualified to question the playcall of Turner, as he is a NFL coach and I am not. And yet, later Turner said it was a mistake. Thus, even though I am not a NFL coach, I was capable of seeing a play as a mistake.

 

No, I do not believe I could ever be an OC. Its kind of like the GM. Could I do decent in the 1st round of the draft. I think I could. But in the later rounds, could I do well? Far more questionable. Could I also manage the cap and build the entire team. Not very likely. Same w/ OC. Could I call a play here and there successfully. Yes, I think I could. Could I playcall an entire game. Hell no. But that doesn't mean I am so uninformed that I can't question particular playcalls.

 

Lastly, while I hate seeing Wolfe getting stuffed, I do understand the concept. If Wolfe breaks just one run from the inside, it changes the gameplan forever when he comes in the game. (the whole playbook is opened for hom now and he becomes a true weapon) It's kinda like using Hester on the WR screen and reverses last year. They never worked. Now they do.

 

While I am not disagreeing w/ your Wolfe point in general, I am not sure I go along w/ your example. IMHO, Hester not doing well on screens last year compared to this year is more about the QB than hester. Cutler delivers the ball quickly, while Orton did not, and that makes a huge difference.

 

Yes, thank you for saving me the time. That's my point. I'll expand a bit more on that idea, however.

 

First, the "if you don't work in the NFL" argument is stupid. There are tons of high school coaches who are legendary, and probably have more football knowledge in their little finger than some coaches in the NFL. Look up coach Barta of Smith Center in Kansas for a quick example.

 

Second, find a knowledgable, passionate, intelligent, devoted fan, who has football experience on more than simply playing a year or two of varsity in high school, and give that person the type of money the OCs in the NFL make, and give them a year's crash course on the verbiage and lingo, and I have no doubt in my mind that many could do better than some of the worst in the NFL, and even more as the level of play decreases. That person probably wouldn't be up to Turner's level in one year on an overall basis, but I would contend that the person would be at least at Shoop's level.

[CrackerDog]

IMHO, Hester not doing well on screens last year compared to this year is more about the QB than hester. Cutler delivers the ball quickly, while Orton did not, and that makes a huge difference.

 

And more accurately, giving the receiver a chance to see the field.

[Mongo3451]

By the rationale, we can never question player or coach. I just find that laughable. Wanny was an NFL coach. You never questioned his decision making? Jauron? Shoop? Come on. Everyone here has questioned moves/calls by our staff, GM, etc., yet by your argument, we are thus only taking away from our own individual credibility.

Not true and furthermore you are embellishing on my statement to enhance your argument. And if I wanted to call any indivual out, I would do so. I think everyone knows that. We all can be upset about calls and think there are better candidates for the OC job out there. But to come in with the arrogance that we (as in anyone on this board) could do better is pure bullcrap. We may get a play or two right, but not on the level of any NFL OC.

 

Further, I was watching the game and saw us line up Forte in the backfield on 3rd and 1, and said it was a mistake. I come on to this board later and said the same. According to you, I have not qualified to question the playcall of Turner, as he is a NFL coach and I am not. And yet, later Turner said it was a mistake. Thus, even though I am not a NFL coach, I was capable of seeing a play as a mistake.

I know you meant Wolfe and I agree with that assessment. I even cussed at the TV when the play was ran. He admitted the mistake. Do you that as a sign of weakness?

 

No, I do not believe I could ever be an OC. Its kind of like the GM. Could I do decent in the 1st round of the draft. I think I could. But in the later rounds, could I do well? Far more questionable. Could I also manage the cap and build the entire team. Not very likely. Same w/ OC. Could I call a play here and there successfully. Yes, I think I could. Could I playcall an entire game. Hell no. But that doesn't mean I am so uninformed that I can't question particular playcalls.

You are right on your assessment of OC and GM. I truly believe no-one on this board could succeed as an OC. But, I do think some of us could handle a draft with the right personnel. Some could manage the cap with support staff. But none of us could be the complete package for any coaching, scouting or GM position in the NFL. Again, through your enhancement of my post, you try to say we can't have an opinion. That's why we are all here. That's almost offensive.

 

While I am not disagreeing w/ your Wolfe point in general, I am not sure I go along w/ your example. IMHO, Hester not doing well on screens last year compared to this year is more about the QB than hester. Cutler delivers the ball quickly, while Orton did not, and that makes a huge difference.

The Wolfe / Hester analogy was to show that you have to earn respect to soften the defense. IF Wolfe is viewed as a perimiter player only, he will be defensed that way. Thus a non factor in any situation. Once he busts a big gain up the middle, the rest will open up for him.

 

[Mongo3451]

First, the "if you don't work in the NFL" argument is stupid. There are tons of high school coaches who are legendary, and probably have more football knowledge in their little finger than some coaches in the NFL. Look up coach Barta of Smith Center in Kansas for a quick example.

Really? Stupid? I would like to hear from one person on this board who would not choose to be an NFL coach if given the opportunity. The reason I say that is because I believe people in general seek their own level in life. I don't know coach Barta and am not going to look him up. But, he either has a life calling to be a high school coach or could not cut it in the NFL. Either way, he is not a poster on this board and he obviously made his choice in life. You or any other poster does not have that choice.

 

Second, find a knowledgable, passionate, intelligent, devoted fan, who has football experience on more than simply playing a year or two of varsity in high school, and give that person the type of money the OCs in the NFL make, and give them a year's crash course on the verbiage and lingo, and I have no doubt in my mind that many could do better than some of the worst in the NFL, and even more as the level of play decreases. That person probably wouldn't be up to Turner's level in one year on an overall basis, but I would contend that the person would be at least at Shoop's level.

Take Shoop out of the analogy and this argument is retarded. (Shoop joke) Honestly, I totally don't buy it at all. I would have the time of my life and would eat, breath and sleep the job. But, simply feel I would always feel over my head. This is something you have to be in for life.

 

If I'm a minority on this issue. So be it.

 

[azbearsfan]

Really? Stupid? I would like to hear from one person on this board who would not choose to be an NFL coach if given the opportunity. The reason I say that is because I believe people in general seek their own level in life. I don't know coach Barta and am not going to look him up. But, he either has a life calling to be a high school coach or could not cut it in the NFL. Either way, he is not a poster on this board and he obviously made his choice in life. You or any other poster does not have that choice.

 

 

Take Shoop out of the analogy and this argument is retarded. (Shoop joke) Honestly, I totally don't buy it at all. I would have the time of my life and would eat, breath and sleep the job. But, simply feel I would always feel over my head. This is something you have to be in for life.

 

If I'm a minority on this issue. So be it.

 

Dude your not in the minority. I'm the one jason is talking about. We had this same argument last year.

 

And for the record, words were put into my mouth as well. Just like in your statement, thing were embellished to aid in the argument.

 

What I said was more along what Nfo is saying because I was tired of the bashing of the coaches left and right. Never said Turner was perfect, just said he wasn't the worst.

 

But I did say that he is better than anybody on this board and I have yet to be disproved.

[selection7]

I'm thinking he shouldn't have revealed it was a mistake. Letting the other team think you'll do it (when you won't...at least intentionally) is a good thing.

 

I was thinking reading this article, how do you think Wolfe feels about all this issue's attention? Assuming he's always been the running back, you know he's probably made hundreds of third and short conversions in his football career and he probably feels like it's BS that you put in our AP and all of a sudden it's not stuffed. Probably makes him mad and wants another opportunity to "I'll show them", hehe. Who knows, but you know NFL players are usually a confident lot.

[azbearsfan]

The bottom line for this and most plays is that if it works then its a good call, if not then its a bad one.

[CrackerDog]

Dude your not in the minority. I'm the one jason is talking about. We had this same argument last year.

 

And for the record, words were put into my mouth as well. Just like in your statement, thing were embellished to aid in the argument.

 

What I said was more along what Nfo is saying because I was tired of the bashing of the coaches left and right. Never said Turner was perfect, just said he wasn't the worst.

 

But I did say that he is better than anybody on this board and I have yet to be disproved.

 

Jason thinks very highly of himself. Nothing wrong with that.

[Noots]

here is something i don't get...

 

2nd quarter about 2.5 mins left in the half, 3rd and goal at the hawks 1 yard line. turner calls a running play. the LG pulls while our LT downblocks to the right, the right side of the line downblocks to the left pinching the middle while forte drives up the middle toward the endzone all the while the left guard goes around the right end blocking with the fullback untouched.

 

the results? forte stuffed in the middle for no gain and it's 4th and goal.

 

what kind of a call is that? did they really practice this during the week and expect it to work? am i not remembering this right?

 

It was most likely the Power O play they so often like to use. Depending on the call and the defensive alignment, the OG and FB will either lead up the hole which could be over the RG/RT area or go around the corner to seal off the edge. It's ultimately the RB's decision to either follow his blockers or cut it back. In this case, it sounds like he either cut it back, or the inside penetration was too much for him to even get to the POA.

 

In a vacuum, it's a decent play, but if we're facing a goal line defense, there is very likely going to be a submarining defensive line, getting some push back. I'd prefer more of a straight ahead blocking play down there. You see, that call against your typical 6-5 goal line front means the pulling guard has to take a deeper drop to get around and past Olin and Garza. If those guys are pushed back, the play is severely sunk. Further, the increased amount of time to get there slows Forte down, allowing any backside pursuit to make the play. The reach or down block used to cover for the pulling guard, if he had a man over him, becomes extremely difficult to make, and that player could track down and ruin the play.

 

I like a pulling guard for Power O and trap blocks more than most people. I've been critical of Turner's O ever since the Salaam years because it was too straight ahead and up the middle, with little line movement. It further reinforced my stance that Turner is an excellent coach for calling the passing game but has a very poor feel for the running portion. You guys are gonna throw stuff at me, but the best play caller we had for the ground game here in the last 15 years was Shoop. Unfortunately, he had a poor feel for the passing offense.

[azbearsfan]

Jason thinks very highly of himself. Nothing wrong with that.

 

 

Dude I can barely read your posts with those breasts distracting me.

 

Well played sir.

[madlithuanian]

Not at all. It could prove a good move. What if the other team sees a certain formation and is convinced Turner's running that "lame play" again? Then he does a playaction or something...

 

I mentioned earlier I felt for Wolfe. He's the collateral damage here... But, I'm sure he's a tough kid that will use this to his advantage.

 

I'm thinking he shouldn't have revealed it was a mistake. Letting the other team think you'll do it (when you won't...at least intentionally) is a good thing.

 

I was thinking reading this article, how do you think Wolfe feels about all this issue's attention? Assuming he's always been the running back, you know he's probably made hundreds of third and short conversions in his football career and he probably feels like it's BS that you put in our AP and all of a sudden it's not stuffed. Probably makes him mad and wants another opportunity to "I'll show them", hehe. Who knows, but you know NFL players are usually a confident lot.

 

[madlithuanian]

I'ts not the middle itself, it's WHEN he's asked to run up the middle...

 

 

 

Nfol,

 

Thanks for posting what I've been thinking the last few days. Everyone that complains that Wolfe shouldn't run up the middle never once complains about his previous 6 yard gain up the middle. It's amazing. In fact, Wolfe has been running with more power this year than last and it's been obvious on many plays. He worked on his lower body strength this offseason and it shows. While I find it totally acceptable to have Wolfe run up the middle I agree he is not a short yardage back and shouldn't have been in on that play call.

 

What would be great to see once in awhile is our Oline open up a true hole in the middle for Wolfe to run through. He's got more than enough quickness to beat the second level and get to the third level and pick up some big gains. We just can't block for him, nor any RB.

 

[madlithuanian]

There are just certain plays, moves, etc...that many good old average Joe armchair QB's know are wrong. As nfo mentioned, none of us are saying we'd really be better. But, for those one or two plays/calls/etc...we are.