Evidence that Stats lie

[nfoligno]

http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2009/10/om...nch_having.html

 

Per the stats, our OL has only given up 11 sacks, which ranks right at the middle of the league. Everyone has talked about how solid Denver's OL is, and yet Orton has been sacked only two fewer times than Cutler. So that must mean our OL is average in pass protection, right?

 

Further, that stats show Omiyale has only given up a 1/2 sack this season. That sounds pretty dang good. Omiyale must be an upper tier OG, right?

 

Kind of cracks me up. One stat I would be curious about is how many QB pressures and QB hits each OL has given up.

[xvflutop]

I'd like to see if they tracked how many times a QB has gotten away from pressure as well. cutler's ability to avoid the dlinemen has got to be a reason why he hasn't been sacked that often

[madlithuanian]

Lies, damn lies, and statistics!

 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2009/10/om...nch_having.html

 

Per the stats, our OL has only given up 11 sacks, which ranks right at the middle of the league. Everyone has talked about how solid Denver's OL is, and yet Orton has been sacked only two fewer times than Cutler. So that must mean our OL is average in pass protection, right?

 

Further, that stats show Omiyale has only given up a 1/2 sack this season. That sounds pretty dang good. Omiyale must be an upper tier OG, right?

 

Kind of cracks me up. One stat I would be curious about is how many QB pressures and QB hits each OL has given up.

 

[DABEARSDABOMB]

http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2009/10/om...nch_having.html

 

Per the stats, our OL has only given up 11 sacks, which ranks right at the middle of the league. Everyone has talked about how solid Denver's OL is, and yet Orton has been sacked only two fewer times than Cutler. So that must mean our OL is average in pass protection, right?

 

Further, that stats show Omiyale has only given up a 1/2 sack this season. That sounds pretty dang good. Omiyale must be an upper tier OG, right?

 

Kind of cracks me up. One stat I would be curious about is how many QB pressures and QB hits each OL has given up.

I think it shows you much more about Cutlers ability to get rid of the football and avoid pressure. He has been stellar at that, the problem is, there have been a good number of plays where he's hit as he throws the ball and while those don't show up in the stat sheet they lead you to throw inaccurate balls and picks, on top of it, they also force you to potentially rush future passes out of fear of the pressure.

[BigDaddy]

Can you imagine how bad Orton would look this year playing in Chicago? Good God, he's gotta be thanking his lucky stars every week.

[selection7]

Can you imagine how bad Orton would look this year playing in Chicago? Good God, he's gotta be thanking his lucky stars every week.

Please. Get off it. Do you people really have to keep telling yourself that to feel good about Cutler? It sounds silly. Orton was good at moving around in the pocket too, (and getting rid of the ball, as evidenced by last year's OL's 29 allowed sacks--and that was not a great OL) even if he wasn't fast/agile/accurate when literally out of the pocket. Substitute Rex in that sentence and it makes more sense.

 

Cutler is definitely good at getting rid of the ball and avoiding pressure. I remember a pick against Atlanta (he didn't see the roaming safety come up to make a play on the ball) that was clearly the result of pressure, so yeah, the pressure isn't helping. Also, picks when you're down by 24 is no biggee, IMO, and the others came mainly in game 1. I'm happy with him so far and you should be too. Can we not leave it at that?

 

In fact, we're really not seeing a lot of Cutler going outside the hashes relative to what we should be, so hopefully that changes (assuming the line doesn't magically start holding a solid pocket, lol).

[Mongo3451]

Please. Get off it. Do you people really have to keep telling yourself that to feel good about Cutler? It sounds silly. Orton was good at moving around in the pocket too, (and getting rid of the ball, as evidenced by last year's OL's 29 allowed sacks--and that was not a great OL) even if he wasn't fast/agile/accurate when literally out of the pocket. Substitute Rex in that sentence and it makes more sense.

 

Cutler is definitely good at getting rid of the ball and avoiding pressure. I remember a pick against Atlanta (he didn't see the roaming safety come up to make a play on the ball) that was clearly the result of pressure, so yeah, the pressure isn't helping. Also, picks when you're down by 24 is no biggee, IMO, and the others came mainly in game 1. I'm happy with him so far and you should be too. Can we not leave it at that?

 

In fact, we're really not seeing a lot of Cutler going outside the hashes relative to what we should be, so hopefully that changes (assuming the line doesn't magically start holding a solid pocket, lol).

Thanks for posting that, as I agree with the assessment. The OL is no worse than it was last year and we have more availible talent at the skill positions. Cutler has to take some accountability. Not all or even most, but some. Orton knows how to make the most of a bad situation.

[BigDaddy]

Please. Get off it. Do you people really have to keep telling yourself that to feel good about Cutler? It sounds silly. Orton was good at moving around in the pocket too, (and getting rid of the ball, as evidenced by last year's OL's 29 allowed sacks--and that was not a great OL) even if he wasn't fast/agile/accurate when literally out of the pocket. Substitute Rex in that sentence and it makes more sense.

 

Cutler is definitely good at getting rid of the ball and avoiding pressure. I remember a pick against Atlanta (he didn't see the roaming safety come up to make a play on the ball) that was clearly the result of pressure, so yeah, the pressure isn't helping. Also, picks when you're down by 24 is no biggee, IMO, and the others came mainly in game 1. I'm happy with him so far and you should be too. Can we not leave it at that?

 

In fact, we're really not seeing a lot of Cutler going outside the hashes relative to what we should be, so hopefully that changes (assuming the line doesn't magically start holding a solid pocket, lol).

 

 

Orton was NOT good at moving around in the pocket and he couldn't run worth a shit. If you think he would have been able to do anything behind this line, you are just out of your freakin mind. I feel good about Cutler because he's a better QB than Orton and his upside is greater but stop bullshitting yourself into believing that we'd be near as effective with orton under center.

[nfoligno]

Okay, I will agree (and I think most do) that Cutler has to share responsibiity. Just because someone questions the OL, WRs, playcalling, or whatever, doesn't mean they are trying to absolve Cutler of anything. Ditto whem comments are made of Orton.

 

One. The OL this year if FAR worse than last year, and I can not even believe anyone would argue this point. Beekman was never great, but was light years better than Omiyale has been. Even if you call the OT positions a wash, which I would argue against, we downgraded at LG so much that it has had an affect throughout. As bad as St. Clair was, I think Pace has been just as bad. And while I might say Williams and Tait were about equal in pass protection, Tait was far better in run blocking. As bad as our OL was last year, this year has been significantly worse.

 

Two. Orton was decent moving around in the pocket to avoid pressure, but lets not get carried away. We had one of the worse in the league (Rex) and pocket presence was a big reason why for years I called for Orton to start ahead of Rex. But just because Orton was better than Rex doesn't mean he is great. Cutler is considered one of the best in the league in this area. Saying Orton is not as good as Cutler, in this regard, is just not an insult to Orton. If someone said Orton didn't have as strong of an arm as Cutler, would you take that as an attack on Orton? It is just the way it is.

 

Orton did a pretty good job last year playing behind a bad OL. This year though, (a) the OL is even worse and ( we have no run game to fall back on.

 

I always liked Orton, and frankly, was among the few who wanted him to start ahead of Rex when everyone was telling me to give Rex a chance. I still like Orton, but lets just be honest for a moment. Cutler and Orton are different QBs. Orton is looking damn good, but he is in a situation which is simply ideal for him. Orton is such a QB that, when in the right situation, he can not play well, but damn well. Cutler is a QB such that he does not have to be in the perfect situation. He can help compensate for a poor OL, or a poor run game, or less than stellar WR. He is in a pretty bad situation right now, but has still been able to move the ball and score. Yea, he is turning it over also, but I would say you have a choice w/ an OL and run game like ours. Take chances, score points but also turn it over, or you can avoid turnovers but watch the offense do little more than go 3 and out.

 

If Orton was the QB of the Bears this year, he would be getting killed. While better in the pocket than Rex, he would get killed w/ this OL and lack of run support. I am not saying this to prop up Cutler. Just the way I see it.

 

Thanks for posting that, as I agree with the assessment. The OL is no worse than it was last year and we have more availible talent at the skill positions. Cutler has to take some accountability. Not all or even most, but some. Orton knows how to make the most of a bad situation.

 

[nfoligno]

While I agree overall, I do have to say, Orton was pretty good moving around in the pocket. No, he wasn't worth a shit running the ball, but that is different. Simply put, Orton had a good sense of pocket presence. Some of that may have been relative after watching Rex for years, who was about as poor inside the pocket as any, but that should not take away from Orton.

 

Orton was good at the following IMHO. He had that awareness. Almost 6th sense. Every good starting QB must have it. you have to be able to feel the pressure. Rex would not feel the pressure when the DT was on top of him. orton was also good at simply taking a step up in the pocket, or two steps to the side. He would move a step or two in a direction to avoid the rush. May not seem like a big thing, but it is what often buys a QB that extra second or two.

 

BUT, this year, that simply would not be enough. It isn't just that some DE is forcing the QB to take a step forward. It isn't that a DT gets penetration from inside. It isn't that a blitzing DB slips through a hole or a LB runs over the RB. Cutler has dealt w/ several at the same time. Cutler often gets inside and outside pressure at the same time. Orton had nice pocket presence, but behind this OL, that would not be enough.

 

Orton was NOT good at moving around in the pocket and he couldn't run worth a shit. If you think he would have been able to do anything behind this line, you are just out of your freakin mind. I feel good about Cutler because he's a better QB than Orton and his upside is greater but stop bullshitting yourself into believing that we'd be near as effective with orton under center.

 

[selection7]

Once again, am I getting carried away? You like to throw that around for no good reason Nfo. Then throwing out a staw man that "Saying Orton is not as good as Cutler, in this regard, is just not an insult to Orton.", which is a bit of a non-sequitur since I never complained about "saying Orton is not as good as Cutler...in this regard", but specifically that he would be outright sucking overall.

 

Thanks for throwing the bone on Orton's pocket presence (which I called, simply, good...not amazing or even great), but that's all that was needed when I'm rebutting the insinuation that Orton would have a 55 QB rating if he was on the Bears (what was his rating last year on this Bears team...playing a third of the year severly hobbled?). And don't you love how posters can get SO vehement about something and still be SO wrong. I saw it on the field last year, BigDaddy; your passion alone can't change reality.

 

One slight irony, Nfo, is how you are specifically one of the ones I remember arguing how bad our O-line was last year (before this season started).

 

In other news, Denver lost today...Orton's O only put up 9 points and the Flacco's O put up 16. And we won big. I'm happy. I'm not some sort of closet Denver fan, I just finally got tired of rolling my eyes without replying.

(EDIT: oops, 23pts actually, missed that last minute TD because I had stopped paying attention by that point).

[BigDaddy]

Once again, am I getting carried away? You like to throw that around for no good reason Nfo. Then throwing out a staw man that "Saying Orton is not as good as Cutler, in this regard, is just not an insult to Orton.", which is a bit of a non-sequitur since I never complained about "saying Orton is not as good as Cutler...in this regard", but specifically that he would be outright sucking overall.

 

Thanks for throwing the bone on Orton's pocket presence (which I called, simply, good...not amazing or even great), but that's all that was needed when I'm rebutting the insinuation that Orton would have a 55 QB rating if he was on the Bears (what was his rating last year on this Bears team...playing a third of the year severly hobbled?). And don't you love how posters can get SO vehement about something and still be SO wrong. I saw it on the field last year, BigDaddy; your passion alone can't change reality.

 

One slight irony, Nfo, is how you are specifically one of the ones I remember arguing how bad our O-line was last year (before this season started).

 

In other news, Denver lost today...Orton's O only put up 9 points and the Flacco's O put up 16. And we won big. I'm happy. I'm not some sort of closet Denver fan, I just finally got tired of rolling my eyes without replying.

(EDIT: oops, 23pts actually, missed that last minute TD because I had stopped paying attention by that point).

 

 

I tried a couple times to read your post but came to the conclusion that you might have had a few today and therefore weren't yourself. I don't really know what you are trying to imply but anything other than Cutler is a better QB in ANY regard than Orton is just plain silly.

[Ed Hochuli 3:16]

The OL today was the worst pass protection job of the year even with Beekman.

[Connorbear]

The OL today was the worst pass protection job of the year even with Beekman.

I was at the game. Cutler was either scrambling or on his arse the entire day. He will not make it until the end of the season if this keeps up. The o-line is horrible.

 

Peace

[nfoligno]

Yes, I often said how bad out OL was last year. Does anyone even question this? However, there are so many levels of bad, and any fan who said last year "it can't get worse" has been proven wrong this year. Our OL is far worse than last year. I would say Pace is as bad, or worse than St.Clair. Omiyale FAR worse than Beekman. Kreutz/Garza wash. Williams is equal to Tait in pass protection (which means bad) but also far less in run blocking.

 

Honestly, I think you tried to get a tad cut in your post, and as BigDaddy said, kinda sounded more like you had a couple watching the game, then posted.

 

To me it is pretty simple. Orton had more pocket presence than Rex, and while not a big threat to take off running, was capable of slipping around in the pocket to avoid a rusher. However, lets not pretend that he was some nimble QB who had great ability in this regard. If Orton felt had to deal w/ the pressure Cutler has had to, I think Orton would have crumbled. That's not really an insult on Orton either. Cutler is known as one of the top escape artists in the NFL, and yet he is getting caught (and forced into bad throws) far too often. I OL simply sucks.

 

Once again, am I getting carried away? You like to throw that around for no good reason Nfo. Then throwing out a staw man that "Saying Orton is not as good as Cutler, in this regard, is just not an insult to Orton.", which is a bit of a non-sequitur since I never complained about "saying Orton is not as good as Cutler...in this regard", but specifically that he would be outright sucking overall.

 

Thanks for throwing the bone on Orton's pocket presence (which I called, simply, good...not amazing or even great), but that's all that was needed when I'm rebutting the insinuation that Orton would have a 55 QB rating if he was on the Bears (what was his rating last year on this Bears team...playing a third of the year severly hobbled?). And don't you love how posters can get SO vehement about something and still be SO wrong. I saw it on the field last year, BigDaddy; your passion alone can't change reality.

 

One slight irony, Nfo, is how you are specifically one of the ones I remember arguing how bad our O-line was last year (before this season started).

 

In other news, Denver lost today...Orton's O only put up 9 points and the Flacco's O put up 16. And we won big. I'm happy. I'm not some sort of closet Denver fan, I just finally got tired of rolling my eyes without replying.

(EDIT: oops, 23pts actually, missed that last minute TD because I had stopped paying attention by that point).

 

[nfoligno]

Not giving Beekman a pass, but I thought the bulk of the pressure was coming off the edges. Pace and Williams were getting simply abused.

 

Also have to say, I am getting real tired of our backs and TEs not being able to block. I tried to watch, and really noticed how bad Forte was back there. A couple times Forte flat out blocked the wrong man. He would move to help out Pace, but in doing so allowed a blitzer untouched. Forte needs to be (a) recognizing the blizer and ( blocking the blitzer before helping Pace.

 

And can someone please teach Olsen that you chip block before you run your route. A couple times I watched Olsen run right past a DE when the OT was blocking inside. Thus it was pretty obvious Olsen was expected to chip block that DE to give Cutler a bit of time for a quick play, yet he didn't even try, and the DE had an easy path to the QB.

 

I am not saying our interior OL was good. I saw them make mistakes. But the majority of the pressure I saw was from the outside, and much of the inside was off blitzes.

 

The OL today was the worst pass protection job of the year even with Beekman.

 

[nfoligno]

Question for you Connor,

 

Watching the TV, it is nearly impossible to tell, but it was hard not to get the impression our WRs were never getting open. Whether Cutler had a little time or a lot, it usually seemed like he was looking forever for an open WR. So either Cutler isn't "seeing the field" very well or our WRs are just not getting open.

 

What was really sad, IMHO, was we often seemed to have only two WRs. Olsen might also run a route, but we would have a 2nd TE and RB, or RB and FB back to help block. Somehow, w/ 7 to block, we still seemed incapable of protecting Cutler.

 

I was at the game. Cutler was either scrambling or on his arse the entire day. He will not make it until the end of the season if this keeps up. The o-line is horrible.

 

Peace

 

[selection7]

Just read your reply Nfo.

However, there are so many levels of bad,

yes, I get that. I just said it was ironic, not that it necessarily makes you wrong, though it maybe read that way.

Honestly, I think you tried to get a tad cut in your post, and as BigDaddy said, kinda sounded more like you had a couple watching the game, then posted.

I honestly read Big Daddy's reply off as a sort thick, and then you back it up. Nice.

I'm gonna admit I'm using contect clues to figue out your use of "cut", maybe I'll look it up.

However, lets not pretend...

Yes, lets not. The big point here is that you are willing to suggest Orton, who could move around in the pocket, was able to simply throw balls away when he got pressured, and was nearly flake-out proof...wooden-personalitied even (I think those years of watching Rex taught him the ultimate respect for composure), would be outright "crumbling" while Jay (until tonight) manages a respectable rating. That's an extreme viewpoint, to put it nicely, and I think you're the one who's pretending. My ultimate thought here is you're not willing to be wrong, because you're willing to take it to such ridiculous lengths without backing down (you're the same guy who suggested that in Jay's worst game as a pro that we still barely lost, that having Orton still wouldn't have put us over the top. That's loony tunes stuff right there. As you like it. Sorry about all that "getting carried away").

 

I must admit I didn't see the non-televised in Oklahoma Cleveland or Bengals game, if that makes a difference, so I missed any of those pressures or escape theatrics.