Im sorry but

[bowlingtwig]

I'll be honest. While I am in general a ND fan, I am not a big enough fan to really follow the team. I realize that many coaches simply get in over the heads after success at one level, only to see failure at a higher level. My question with regard to Charlie though is this. Is he really that great of an OC, or was he simply part of a great system?

I watch every ND game and he is the one that calls the plays. When he first got there Clausen was talented but not very good and now the offense is explosive with Tate, Clauson and Floyd. The Oline isn't very good there either but he spreads it out and constantly uses 3 and 4 options to go out. Usually sending 1 deep while leaving the others in just in case Clausen doesn't have time. It also helps that his TE is 6'7.

[jason]

Bingo!

Ditto the Bingo.

 

If everyone under Lovie is fired, who the hell are the Bears going to hire?

[jason]

While I do not want to even appear I am giving Cutler a pass, because I am not, I do agree the majority of our problem is coaching.

 

For a while now I have heard media guys point out how much this team lacks an identity, especially on offense. Are we Lovie's team, which wants to win with defense and the run game, or Cutler's team which airs it out? And before any comment about the "media", the media I am referring to is made up of former players, coaches and GMs.

 

It is painful put Cutler in an offense that doesn't spread it out. I realize the need to keep extra blockers back, but lets be honest, that extra protection really isn't doing that much, and I would argue extra weapons would be a far greater asset.

 

We have no go-to player on offense. We have talent, but just no single stud to rely on. That means we can not just send 2 or maybe 3 options into the field and expect them all to get open. We need to spread it out more and give Cutler greater opportunities.

 

Again, I am not saying Cutler isn't having issues. But I am saying that I believe our coaching staff has pushed Cutler toward many of those issues, and done little to help.

 

Agreed completely. What's more, I don't believe - and nobody can convince me otherwise - that there is a defense in the league that can stay with the team speed the Bears have on offense. This offense should be producing massive plays like the Philly offense does. Knox, Hester, and Olsen? With those three on the field, there IS a matchup problem for the opposing defense. Add in the possession WR in Bennett, who is quietly having a very nice season (thanks for playing him last year Turner!), and I just don't see how the Bears don't produce. And, oh yeah, Forte tore the league a new a-hole last year, so we know he's good (despite what the OL, his stats, and a possible injury would have people believe). This is a coaching problem.

 

How many times do the Bears need to mismanage an offensive weapon, or not play him at all, before people realize this is coaching. I've been saying it for a long time. Turner is not a good OC. This is not up for debate. He may be a nice guy, but the product he puts on the field, the calls he makes, the adjustments (or lack thereof), none of it makes an opposing defense in the league scared. Not remotely.

 

[nfoligno]

I SOOOOOOO go back and forth on this.

 

On one hand, it can't be worse, right? Wrong. We got rid of Shoop, only to add Shea. It can always get worse. But lets say we do can Turner.

 

On one hand, I think there are numerous reasons to believe the OC position could attract solid talent.

 

(a) While we are not thrilled at the moment with our players, especially along the OL, there are also some players we have which could be attractive for a coach. PFW had a piece talking about how some coaches would love to have an opportunity to run an offense w/ Cutler behind center. Teams like Cle, Buf, Oak or many others may look for coaches, but think for a moment about their QB situation. Would you rather run an offense led by Cutler or Quinn? Besides Cutler, while we may lack established players, we do have a solid group of young talents (Knox, Forte, Bennett, Olsen and yes, even Hester).

 

( Taking over an offense w/ a potential lame duck coach has its negatives, but also positives. On the positive note, an OC would have a year to show something, and if he does well, could potentially position himself to take over the team as the HC.

 

© Even if the job ends up as a one year deal, it would still be a promotion for many solid talents. There are only so many jobs in the NFL, and the number gets smaller and smaller the higher up you go. Even if not the ideal situation, if a team offers you a job as an OC, and it is an upgrade from your current situation, most often it is a good move to make.

 

On the other hand,

 

(a) Like players, most coaches like stability. Even if the job is a potential promotion, if you believe the HC and/or GM may change in a year, you are taking a big risk as you could be looking for a new job in a years time. In-stability like this will push many qualified candidates to other teams, or they will stay in place until something more stable comes along.

 

( Many believe that while Lovie is not the offensive mind, he has maintained a level of control. As stated by many of late. Lovie likes to win w/ defense and a solid ground game. If an OC is not sure whether or not the HC is on board w/ his style of offense, it may not be a good situation. I often hear about Martz, but if Lovie wants to be a run oriented offense, is Martz a good fit? OCs that want to open it up may not want to coach for Lovie if the belief is they are not sold on such a system.

 

© Money. While some might argue (as I did earlier) that a coach might see the job as basically a one year stint before taking over as HC, it could also be argued you are still not likely to get the upper tier guys as we are not going to pay our OC a huge amount of money. For example, what if Shannahan didn't receive an offer from another team as a HC. Some might argue he could come here as an OC, and would be in a prime situation to take over as HC in another year. But would we actually pay our OC enough to get someone from that upper tier?

 

Honestly, I could go back and forth on this all day. In the end, I think the OC job under Lovie would appeal to many who are currently below the level of OC. For them, the job is a promotion, which means more pay and an opportunity to prove themselves, and they would get this opportunity with a pro bowl QB at their disposal. I think the upper tier candidates would not view the opportunity highly, but the job may look good for the assistants of the league.

 

The question is, would hiring another teams RB or QB coach (or whatever assistant) be an upgade for us? We would be getting a guy with no prior experience running an offense, would have to learn on the job, and might have a HC pushing to run the ball and tighten the grip on Cutler.

 

That is why I just don't know here. As much as I want to upgrade Turner, at the same time, I just wonder if it is truly beneficial to do so w/o also letting Lovie go.

 

Ditto the Bingo.

 

If everyone under Lovie is fired, who the hell are the Bears going to hire?

 

[Lucky Luciano]

One. You ask what the role of the President is. I would answer by saying it is different for each team. Some teams, the President is also the owner. Some teams the president is also the GM. Some teams, the pres is like Ted Phillips, more hands off, allowing the GM to run the operations. And some teams have a structurel more like the one you describe. But the point is, there are different models, and no one model is right, nor wrong.

 

How about the New England Patriots. Who is their Team President? Johathan Kraft, who is also the president of the larger Kraft Group. He is what I believe you would call a bean counter. In fact, if you read his bio, one of the top things he is credited for is negotiating the new Patriots stadium.

 

How about another successful NFL team. The Steelers are owned by Dan Rooney, and the president is Arthur Rooney. Oh yea, and the VP is Arthur Rooney, Jr. I am sure you would be happy if our team followed this successful model and kept all upper management in the family.

 

Again, the point is, there are more than one model. IMHO, the problem is not the structure, but those in the structure. You can point to Ted, but I would argue other NFL teams (successful ones) also have a "bean counter" in the role of president. The greater issue, IMHO, is who is under him. I have no issue w/ a non-football guy being the president, so long as he doesn't try to meddle in the football affairs, which brings me to the 2nd point.

 

Two. How much do you want the prez to be involved over the GM? If you had a prez very involved in the football operations, does that not limit the role of the GM? Would we be able to get an upper tier GM if he felt he would not have full authority, and would have a meddling boss?

 

Finally, you said, "as far as wishing for good management, is mikey the sword of damacles to keep us in mediocrity because if we want what is good for the franchise we are threatened with this troglodyte?"

 

first off, i never stated there weren't multiple owner structures in the nfl. but what concerns me and what i am talking about is OUR'S.

 

lets look at the bears management structure:

 

1. imbecile owners: according to you, you don't believe the mccaskey's at this time are involved with control of the football side of this franchise. by changing the president of football operations you believe the mccaskey's, specifically mikey, will fall into the 'presidents' spot and then take control. so, at this time they 'supposedly have no say in personnel decisions and defer total control of football operations to an ACCOUNTANT. how really dumb is that if true? that leaves...

 

2. president and #1 bean counter ted phillips: someone who not only stated but who has PROVEN he knows nothing about running the football side of the franchise. when mikey was kicked upstairs ted phillips didn't have the football brains to even begin to know how or where to find a GM to replace the idiot bastards son.

 

so, he had to hire ANOTHER corporation to find one which it took months to do. so it seems like a good idea that when you next fire your GM (it does happen) that you now have to hire someone to figure out who to hire again because the president of our franchise has no clue and those above him are not involved? hmmm... even IF we fired angelo who is going to decide who replaces him? the same corporation? what are their credentials? giving us angelo?? if so, months later the availability of most free GM's and football minds are GONE again and you end up with the slop in the bottom of the bucket that will work cheap AGAIN.

 

also, does it also stand to reason he has no clue on what to do with our college and pro scouting staffs? does he have any input on draft day? but then how important could that be? seems laughable doesn't it.

 

that leaves... (drumroll).......ta DA!!!.....................

 

3. GM jerry angelo: whos bio reads...

 

"He was handed the reins of the Chicago Bears football operations on June 12, 2001 as the team's first general manager since 1986 (Jerry Vainisi). Angelo has 40 years of football experience, including 20 as a NFL scout and 22 in the NFC North Division (includes 15 years in former NFC Central Division). He oversees the Bears entire football staff including football operations, personnel and coaching along with all decisions regarding the draft, free agency, trades and the salary cap."

 

that folks, is IT!! we have no checks and balances. our GM is in charge of everyone and everything involving the actual football side of our entire franchise!! so in essense we have nobody in the entire upper AND lower structure of management who even KNOWS enough about football operations to not only make a judgement on our GM's performance but who to replace him with if they did!!!

 

seems to me THAT'S why you would hire a president who understands the WHOLE picture and not someone who's claim to fame is his niche on how to structure the freaking salary cap and communicate with city and state officials. THIS is why a mike holmgren type for president would be a very good move by the corporate management of this franchise. it would give us checks and balances on the football side of running this franchise instead of putting it all on one individual, angelo, and expecting him to manage or fire himself.

 

Nice quote, but we live in reality. In reality, yes, it is likely that Mikey, or maybe another family member, would be the prez if Ted were fired. You want to argue, but that is simply reality. No, I am not saying it as fact, but I think it very likely, and logical. The family likes and trusts Ted. In fact, I have read many articles talking about how a key reason the family has allowed as much spending as they have is their trust in Ted. This is an ownership that is simply not likely to fire Ted, and hire a stranger, and give him full authority.

 

In saying I would like to keep Ted and fire everyone below, I (IMHO) am keeping the argument is some level of reality. Sure, I would love for new ownership, and many more changes, but why waste my breath if those options are simply not on the table.

 

THIS is your "we live in reality" reality.

 

you say you want to "fire" everyone below ted to keep this real. well who has enough authority or intelligence to make the decision to fire anyone in football operations if it isn't either our clueless president OR the mccaskey family?

 

moving on:

 

let's look at the pats management structure. true the president isn't possibly football savvy but look at the football side of the structure he is smart enough to establish. he has hired a verrrry capable vice president and senior football advisor who is also considered the GM. this is who their president replaced pioli with. they also have hired a director of player personnel to govern the day to day operations of the department. the supporting staff of these two leaders is large and capable. see any differences there like maybe checks and balances and accountability?

 

pats:

 

1. Jonathan Kraft - President

 

Jonathan A. Kraft is the president and chief operating officer for The Kraft Group, the holding company of the Kraft family's varied business interests. He is also the president of the threetime Super Bowl Champion New England Patriots. As president of the Patriots, Kraft oversees the management and strategic planning of each department within the organization. He also works closely with his father to represent the Patriots in all league matters and has served on multiple NFL owner committees.

 

http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=...bio&bio=549

 

2. Senior Football Advisor - Floyd Reese

 

Floyd Reese will enter his 33rd NFL season in 2009, including 18 seasons in player personnel and 15 seasons as an assistant coach. He joined the Patriots on January 27, 2009 after serving 13 seasons as the executive vice president/general manager of the Houston Oilers/Tennessee Titans franchise from 1994-2006. He also served as the assistant general manager of the Oilers for four seasons from 1990-93. Reese served as an assistant coach with Detroit (1975-77), San Francisco (1978), Minnesota (1979- 85) and the Houston Oilers (1986-89).

 

http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=...o&bio=33602

 

3. Director of Player Personnel - Nick Caserio

 

Nick Caserio was named director of player personnel on February 21, 2008, after serving in a number of roles for the Patriots' personnel department and coaching staff. He enters his ninth season with the Patriots in 2009 and his seventh season in player personnel. He will oversee the day-to-day operations of the department.

 

http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=...o&bio=32456

 

=======================================================

you mention the steelers:

 

the rooney family is one of the founders of the NFL. unlike our mccaskey's they seem to understand what it takes to run an organization in this era. look at the staff they employ and the differences between theirs and ours: http://news.steelers.com/team/frontoffice/

 

it's actually structured with checks and balances in most of the key areas and broken up into manageable divisions. the rooney's seem to HAVE the football savvy to understand what makes or breaks GM's and coaches and where to find one if needed. also look at their scouting personnel in football operations alone...

 

"Football Operations

Kevin Colbert, Director of Football Operations

Doug Whaley, Pro Personnel Coordinator

Ron Hughes, College Scouting Coordinator

Joe Greene, Special Assistant

Mark Gorscak, College Scout

Phil Kreidler, Pro/College Scout

Kelvin Fisher, College Scout

Bruce McNorton, College Scout

Dan Rooney, College Scout

Dave Petett , Blesto Scout

Bill Nunn, College Personnel

Rob McCartney, Player Personnel Intern"

 

 

[nfoligno]

first off, i never stated there weren't multiple owner structures in the nfl. but what concerns me and what i am talking about is OUR'S.

 

I realize we are talking about ours, but the point is, you make out like ours is so different from the norm, and I simply question that belief.

 

lets look at the bears management structure:

 

1. imbecile owners: according to you, you don't believe the mccaskey's at this time are involved with control of the football side of this franchise. by changing the president of football operations you believe the mccaskey's, specifically mikey, will fall into the 'presidents' spot and then take control. so, at this time they 'supposedly have no say in personnel decisions and defer total control of football operations to an ACCOUNTANT. how really dumb is that if true? that leaves...

 

How dumb is that? Not at all. They leave the football side alone, which a hell of a lot better than what we have here in Dallas, where the owner is also the president, GM and wanna be head coach. We have an ownership that enjoys their skybox suite and signs the checks. Sounds good to me. As for leaving the business to an accountant, again, just not as outside the norm as you want to make out.

 

2. president and #1 bean counter ted phillips: someone who not only stated but who has PROVEN he knows nothing about running the football side of the franchise. when mikey was kicked upstairs ted phillips didn't have the football brains to even begin to know how or where to find a GM to replace the idiot bastards son.

 

so, he had to hire ANOTHER corporation to find one which it took months to do. so it seems like a good idea that when you next fire your GM (it does happen) that you now have to hire someone to figure out who to hire again because the president of our franchise has no clue and those above him are not involved? hmmm... even IF we fired angelo who is going to decide who replaces him? the same corporation? what are their credentials? giving us angelo?? if so, months later the availability of most free GM's and football minds are GONE again and you end up with the slop in the bottom of the bucket that will work cheap AGAIN.

 

One. Yea, he used an outside company, which for the record, we were are not alone in doing. That company did a search and narrowed the list, which WE then made the decision on. I actually have little issue w/ the use of an outside company. My only issue is the length of the process it took.

 

Two. This is what Ted did then. It does not mean it is what he would do today. Then, he was new to the role, and it was his first time dealing w/ such issues. He was involved in the process (said himself in interviews) and may not feel as incapable of making such decisions in the future.

 

also, does it also stand to reason he has no clue on what to do with our college and pro scouting staffs? does he have any input on draft day? but then how important could that be? seems laughable doesn't it.

 

Sorry, but it is simply not that unusual to have a President who runs the business side of things, and then below him is a person in charge of the football operations. For us, that role is filled by Angelo.

 

that leaves... (drumroll).......ta DA!!!.....................

 

3. GM jerry angelo: whos bio reads...

 

"He was handed the reins of the Chicago Bears football operations on June 12, 2001 as the team's first general manager since 1986 (Jerry Vainisi). Angelo has 40 years of football experience, including 20 as a NFL scout and 22 in the NFC North Division (includes 15 years in former NFC Central Division). He oversees the Bears entire football staff including football operations, personnel and coaching along with all decisions regarding the draft, free agency, trades and the salary cap."

 

that folks, is IT!! we have no checks and balances. our GM is in charge of everyone and everything involving the actual football side of our entire franchise!! so in essense we have nobody in the entire upper AND lower structure of management who even KNOWS enough about football operations to not only make a judgement on our GM's performance but who to replace him with if they did!!!

 

seems to me THAT'S why you would hire a president who understands the WHOLE picture and not someone who's claim to fame is his niche on how to structure the freaking salary cap and communicate with city and state officials. THIS is why a mike holmgren type for president would be a very good move by the corporate management of this franchise. it would give us checks and balances on the football side of running this franchise instead of putting it all on one individual, angelo, and expecting him to manage or fire himself.

 

So that is what all this is about. We need more checks and balance? To what extent? If your president is so involved that he is in the war room 2nd guessing the GM on draft choices, you think that is a positive? If the Prez is telling the GM he doesn't like this player or that player, and does not allow the GM the authority to run the team, you think that is a positive? Man, that right there screams to the sorryness of so many teams out there today. If Angelo is in charge, then he is in charge. You let him do his job, and if he doesn't get it done, then you replace him.

 

You further pretend it takes a football genius to make the call whether or not Angelo is getting it done. Sorry, but it doesn't take Jimmy Johnson or Bill Parcells to make that call.

 

At some point, you are going to lead up to a non-football person making decisions. Lets say we hired Holmgren as the president, and we still suck. Is it your opinion that at no point can Mikey or ownership realize it isn't working out and fire Holmgren? The point here is that at some point, you are going to have a non-football person making decisions. You seem to feel the football person has to be at the president level, while we (and many other) teams feel comfortable w/ the football guy being the GM.

 

THIS is your "we live in reality" reality.

 

you say you want to "fire" everyone below ted to keep this real. well who has enough authority or intelligence to make the decision to fire anyone in football operations if it isn't either our clueless president OR the mccaskey family?

 

Once again. You seem to believe this is rocket science. How many owners around the league know little more about football than you or I, and yet seem capable of year in and year out making such calls. Just because Ted Phillips is not a "football mind" doesn't mean he can't see this isn't working. It doesn't mean he can't look at Angelo's draft picks and FA signings and decide the value of the GM based on those merits. You make out like this is rocket science, but it is not.

 

Hell, I would point out that you are no more a football guy than Ted, and yet you seem to believe you are of sound mind to declare he and everyone else should be fired.

 

And again, even if we fired Ted and hired Holmgren (a) you are having a non-football person (ownership) making that hiring, and by your own logic, they are not qualified to do such and ( how does Holmgren ever get fired. If you argue Ted is not qualified to know when to fire Angelo, how could ownership ever fire Holmgren?

 

moving on:

 

let's look at the pats management structure. true the president isn't possibly football savvy but look at the football side of the structure he is smart enough to establish. he has hired a verrrry capable vice president and senior football advisor who is also considered the GM. this is who their president replaced pioli with. they also have hired a director of player personnel to govern the day to day operations of the department. the supporting staff of these two leaders is large and capable. see any differences there like maybe checks and balances and accountability?

 

pats:

 

1. Jonathan Kraft - President

 

Jonathan A. Kraft is the president and chief operating officer for The Kraft Group, the holding company of the Kraft family's varied business interests. He is also the president of the threetime Super Bowl Champion New England Patriots. As president of the Patriots, Kraft oversees the management and strategic planning of each department within the organization. He also works closely with his father to represent the Patriots in all league matters and has served on multiple NFL owner committees.

 

http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=...bio&bio=549

 

2. Senior Football Advisor - Floyd Reese

 

Floyd Reese will enter his 33rd NFL season in 2009, including 18 seasons in player personnel and 15 seasons as an assistant coach. He joined the Patriots on January 27, 2009 after serving 13 seasons as the executive vice president/general manager of the Houston Oilers/Tennessee Titans franchise from 1994-2006. He also served as the assistant general manager of the Oilers for four seasons from 1990-93. Reese served as an assistant coach with Detroit (1975-77), San Francisco (1978), Minnesota (1979- 85) and the Houston Oilers (1986-89).

 

http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=...o&bio=33602

 

3. Director of Player Personnel - Nick Caserio

 

Nick Caserio was named director of player personnel on February 21, 2008, after serving in a number of roles for the Patriots' personnel department and coaching staff. He enters his ninth season with the Patriots in 2009 and his seventh season in player personnel. He will oversee the day-to-day operations of the department.

 

I fail to see the check and balance. You have a non-football guy in charge of everyone. Reese (going off your comments) is in charge. If Reese wants to do something that Caserio disagrees with, what are you saying happens. Nick is the check and can block Reese from doing it? I doubt that. If you just mean he provides feedback, opinion and comment, why is it you don't give Gabrial or DePaul credit for being capable of such w/ Angelo.

 

There is no check and balance here different than w/ the Bears.

 

=======================================================

you mention the steelers:

 

the rooney family is one of the founders of the NFL. unlike our mccaskey's they seem to understand what it takes to run an organization in this era. look at the staff they employ and the differences between theirs and ours: http://news.steelers.com/team/frontoffice/

 

it's actually structured with checks and balances in most of the key areas and broken up into manageable divisions. the rooney's seem to HAVE the football savvy to understand what makes or breaks GM's and coaches and where to find one if needed. also look at their scouting personnel in football operations alone...

 

"Football Operations

Kevin Colbert, Director of Football Operations

Doug Whaley, Pro Personnel Coordinator

Ron Hughes, College Scouting Coordinator

Joe Greene, Special Assistant

Mark Gorscak, College Scout

Phil Kreidler, Pro/College Scout

Kelvin Fisher, College Scout

Bruce McNorton, College Scout

Dan Rooney, College Scout

Dave Petett , Blesto Scout

Bill Nunn, College Personnel

Rob McCartney, Player Personnel Intern"

 

Dude. How can you even try to make such an argument. Their structure is the same as ours. The only difference is you actually list their scouts. What, you don't think we have scouts?

 

Pitt is family owned. Like Chicago. Oh, and by the way, we too are a one of the founders of the NFL.

They have a pres who is not a football guy. Sound familiar.

 

Below this, you try to show a bunch of names and make out like they are different, but they are not.

 

Colbert is equal to Angelo

Whaley is equal to DePaul

Hughes is equal to Gabrial.

 

After those guys, you just list a bunch of team scouts. What, you don't think we have scouts. Oh yea, and you even list an intern.

 

Sorry, but you can try to list names and spin this as you wish. If you want to say Angelo sucks. I have no problem with that. If you want to say Gabrial, DePaul and our scouts suck, be my guest. But what kills my is this idea that there is only one correct way to set up the organization, and that is to have a football guy be the president. I disagree 100%. What matters is not the structure nearly so much as simply the men in the positions. If Holmgren came on and hired a joker for a GM, our structure would not look any better. However, if Ted replaced Angelo with a GM that turned out capable, I doubt you would give a crap about our pres lacking football insight.

[Mongo3451]

 

You bring up the Steelers and Pats as examples and the structures aren't greatly different. All three are well managed fiscally. The main difference is the two winning teams draft the hell out of OL and have zero dependence on FA for OL. Upright QB's play winning football. That has nothing to do with Phillips and everything to do with Angelo and Lovie. Phillips may be a bean counter, but don't think for a second he doesn't know the shelf life of an NFL player and what W and L's look like.

[madlithuanian]

The more I think about our problems, the more I hope Teddy gets it. He is truly our only hope.

 

Odds are we can't get a primo HC w/o giving up GM power...and Teddy must be willing to eat Smith's contract and at minimum, take away powers from JA.

 

 

 

You bring up the Steelers and Pats as examples and the structures aren't greatly different. All three are well managed fiscally. The main difference is the two winning teams draft the hell out of OL and have zero dependence on FA for OL. Upright QB's play winning football. That has nothing to do with Phillips and everything to do with Angelo and Lovie. Phillips may be a bean counter, but don't think for a second he doesn't know the shelf life of an NFL player and what W and L's look like.

 

[Lucky Luciano]

after boiling all this down this is what you are saying...

 

1. you have no problem with ownership. the mccaskey's are running this franchise just as well as the new england patriots and are as knowlegible as the rooney family when it comes to football knowlege and operations because they are related to george halas. they are completely blameless if the football operations in this franchise fail.

 

2. having said the previous you are content with ted phillips overseeing football operations in this franchise and are content with whatever process he chooses our GM with. being the president he doesn't need to know anything except how to structure contracts and be a lie'ason with the public to perform his duties.

 

3. you are ok with no accountability from anyone in upper management, especially our team president, if our current GM fails or our future GM's fail. the blame can be attributed to nameless, faceless corporations that find these key people for us. (incidently i would like you to post the facts with links to show how many other franchises choose their GM's this way and their success rate).

 

my crazy ideas...

 

1. hire a true professional that understands the football side of operations and who has the knowlege and expertise to 'hire' and fire a GM and understand the why of both. someone who can oversee various departments like college scouting and the draft. title? president.

 

2. have this knowlegable president hire a new GM to run hands-on football operations and oversee the progress the new GM does or doesn't make.

 

3. have this GM accountable for drafting quality picks and players that are a need and have a GM that can see the long term effect of these drafts and how players will relate to the future health of the franchise.

 

have this new GM hire a new coaching staff that is qualified and not just working cheap to break into the head coaching position. something novel like one with previous head coach experience in the nfl and offense oriented.

 

 

 

first off, i never stated there weren't multiple owner structures in the nfl. but what concerns me and what i am talking about is OUR'S.

 

I realize we are talking about ours, but the point is, you make out like ours is so different from the norm, and I simply question that belief.

 

lets look at the bears management structure:

 

1. imbecile owners: according to you, you don't believe the mccaskey's at this time are involved with control of the football side of this franchise. by changing the president of football operations you believe the mccaskey's, specifically mikey, will fall into the 'presidents' spot and then take control. so, at this time they 'supposedly have no say in personnel decisions and defer total control of football operations to an ACCOUNTANT. how really dumb is that if true? that leaves...

 

How dumb is that? Not at all. They leave the football side alone, which a hell of a lot better than what we have here in Dallas, where the owner is also the president, GM and wanna be head coach. We have an ownership that enjoys their skybox suite and signs the checks. Sounds good to me. As for leaving the business to an accountant, again, just not as outside the norm as you want to make out.

 

2. president and #1 bean counter ted phillips: someone who not only stated but who has PROVEN he knows nothing about running the football side of the franchise. when mikey was kicked upstairs ted phillips didn't have the football brains to even begin to know how or where to find a GM to replace the idiot bastards son.

 

so, he had to hire ANOTHER corporation to find one which it took months to do. so it seems like a good idea that when you next fire your GM (it does happen) that you now have to hire someone to figure out who to hire again because the president of our franchise has no clue and those above him are not involved? hmmm... even IF we fired angelo who is going to decide who replaces him? the same corporation? what are their credentials? giving us angelo?? if so, months later the availability of most free GM's and football minds are GONE again and you end up with the slop in the bottom of the bucket that will work cheap AGAIN.

 

One. Yea, he used an outside company, which for the record, we were are not alone in doing. That company did a search and narrowed the list, which WE then made the decision on. I actually have little issue w/ the use of an outside company. My only issue is the length of the process it took.

 

Two. This is what Ted did then. It does not mean it is what he would do today. Then, he was new to the role, and it was his first time dealing w/ such issues. He was involved in the process (said himself in interviews) and may not feel as incapable of making such decisions in the future.

 

also, does it also stand to reason he has no clue on what to do with our college and pro scouting staffs? does he have any input on draft day? but then how important could that be? seems laughable doesn't it.

 

Sorry, but it is simply not that unusual to have a President who runs the business side of things, and then below him is a person in charge of the football operations. For us, that role is filled by Angelo.

 

that leaves... (drumroll).......ta DA!!!.....................

 

3. GM jerry angelo: whos bio reads...

 

"He was handed the reins of the Chicago Bears football operations on June 12, 2001 as the team's first general manager since 1986 (Jerry Vainisi). Angelo has 40 years of football experience, including 20 as a NFL scout and 22 in the NFC North Division (includes 15 years in former NFC Central Division). He oversees the Bears entire football staff including football operations, personnel and coaching along with all decisions regarding the draft, free agency, trades and the salary cap."

 

that folks, is IT!! we have no checks and balances. our GM is in charge of everyone and everything involving the actual football side of our entire franchise!! so in essense we have nobody in the entire upper AND lower structure of management who even KNOWS enough about football operations to not only make a judgement on our GM's performance but who to replace him with if they did!!!

 

seems to me THAT'S why you would hire a president who understands the WHOLE picture and not someone who's claim to fame is his niche on how to structure the freaking salary cap and communicate with city and state officials. THIS is why a mike holmgren type for president would be a very good move by the corporate management of this franchise. it would give us checks and balances on the football side of running this franchise instead of putting it all on one individual, angelo, and expecting him to manage or fire himself.

 

So that is what all this is about. We need more checks and balance? To what extent? If your president is so involved that he is in the war room 2nd guessing the GM on draft choices, you think that is a positive? If the Prez is telling the GM he doesn't like this player or that player, and does not allow the GM the authority to run the team, you think that is a positive? Man, that right there screams to the sorryness of so many teams out there today. If Angelo is in charge, then he is in charge. You let him do his job, and if he doesn't get it done, then you replace him.

 

You further pretend it takes a football genius to make the call whether or not Angelo is getting it done. Sorry, but it doesn't take Jimmy Johnson or Bill Parcells to make that call.

 

At some point, you are going to lead up to a non-football person making decisions. Lets say we hired Holmgren as the president, and we still suck. Is it your opinion that at no point can Mikey or ownership realize it isn't working out and fire Holmgren? The point here is that at some point, you are going to have a non-football person making decisions. You seem to feel the football person has to be at the president level, while we (and many other) teams feel comfortable w/ the football guy being the GM.

 

THIS is your "we live in reality" reality.

 

you say you want to "fire" everyone below ted to keep this real. well who has enough authority or intelligence to make the decision to fire anyone in football operations if it isn't either our clueless president OR the mccaskey family?

 

Once again. You seem to believe this is rocket science. How many owners around the league know little more about football than you or I, and yet seem capable of year in and year out making such calls. Just because Ted Phillips is not a "football mind" doesn't mean he can't see this isn't working. It doesn't mean he can't look at Angelo's draft picks and FA signings and decide the value of the GM based on those merits. You make out like this is rocket science, but it is not.

 

Hell, I would point out that you are no more a football guy than Ted, and yet you seem to believe you are of sound mind to declare he and everyone else should be fired.

 

And again, even if we fired Ted and hired Holmgren (a) you are having a non-football person (ownership) making that hiring, and by your own logic, they are not qualified to do such and ( how does Holmgren ever get fired. If you argue Ted is not qualified to know when to fire Angelo, how could ownership ever fire Holmgren?

 

moving on:

 

let's look at the pats management structure. true the president isn't possibly football savvy but look at the football side of the structure he is smart enough to establish. he has hired a verrrry capable vice president and senior football advisor who is also considered the GM. this is who their president replaced pioli with. they also have hired a director of player personnel to govern the day to day operations of the department. the supporting staff of these two leaders is large and capable. see any differences there like maybe checks and balances and accountability?

 

pats:

 

1. Jonathan Kraft - President

 

Jonathan A. Kraft is the president and chief operating officer for The Kraft Group, the holding company of the Kraft family's varied business interests. He is also the president of the threetime Super Bowl Champion New England Patriots. As president of the Patriots, Kraft oversees the management and strategic planning of each department within the organization. He also works closely with his father to represent the Patriots in all league matters and has served on multiple NFL owner committees.

 

http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=...bio&bio=549

 

2. Senior Football Advisor - Floyd Reese

 

Floyd Reese will enter his 33rd NFL season in 2009, including 18 seasons in player personnel and 15 seasons as an assistant coach. He joined the Patriots on January 27, 2009 after serving 13 seasons as the executive vice president/general manager of the Houston Oilers/Tennessee Titans franchise from 1994-2006. He also served as the assistant general manager of the Oilers for four seasons from 1990-93. Reese served as an assistant coach with Detroit (1975-77), San Francisco (1978), Minnesota (1979- 85) and the Houston Oilers (1986-89).

 

http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=...o&bio=33602

 

3. Director of Player Personnel - Nick Caserio

 

Nick Caserio was named director of player personnel on February 21, 2008, after serving in a number of roles for the Patriots' personnel department and coaching staff. He enters his ninth season with the Patriots in 2009 and his seventh season in player personnel. He will oversee the day-to-day operations of the department.

 

I fail to see the check and balance. You have a non-football guy in charge of everyone. Reese (going off your comments) is in charge. If Reese wants to do something that Caserio disagrees with, what are you saying happens. Nick is the check and can block Reese from doing it? I doubt that. If you just mean he provides feedback, opinion and comment, why is it you don't give Gabrial or DePaul credit for being capable of such w/ Angelo.

 

There is no check and balance here different than w/ the Bears.

 

=======================================================

you mention the steelers:

 

the rooney family is one of the founders of the NFL. unlike our mccaskey's they seem to understand what it takes to run an organization in this era. look at the staff they employ and the differences between theirs and ours: http://news.steelers.com/team/frontoffice/

 

it's actually structured with checks and balances in most of the key areas and broken up into manageable divisions. the rooney's seem to HAVE the football savvy to understand what makes or breaks GM's and coaches and where to find one if needed. also look at their scouting personnel in football operations alone...

 

"Football Operations

Kevin Colbert, Director of Football Operations

Doug Whaley, Pro Personnel Coordinator

Ron Hughes, College Scouting Coordinator

Joe Greene, Special Assistant

Mark Gorscak, College Scout

Phil Kreidler, Pro/College Scout

Kelvin Fisher, College Scout

Bruce McNorton, College Scout

Dan Rooney, College Scout

Dave Petett , Blesto Scout

Bill Nunn, College Personnel

Rob McCartney, Player Personnel Intern"

 

Dude. How can you even try to make such an argument. Their structure is the same as ours. The only difference is you actually list their scouts. What, you don't think we have scouts?

 

Pitt is family owned. Like Chicago. Oh, and by the way, we too are a one of the founders of the NFL.

They have a pres who is not a football guy. Sound familiar.

 

Below this, you try to show a bunch of names and make out like they are different, but they are not.

 

Colbert is equal to Angelo

Whaley is equal to DePaul

Hughes is equal to Gabrial.

 

After those guys, you just list a bunch of team scouts. What, you don't think we have scouts. Oh yea, and you even list an intern.

 

Sorry, but you can try to list names and spin this as you wish. If you want to say Angelo sucks. I have no problem with that. If you want to say Gabrial, DePaul and our scouts suck, be my guest. But what kills my is this idea that there is only one correct way to set up the organization, and that is to have a football guy be the president. I disagree 100%. What matters is not the structure nearly so much as simply the men in the positions. If Holmgren came on and hired a joker for a GM, our structure would not look any better. However, if Ted replaced Angelo with a GM that turned out capable, I doubt you would give a crap about our pres lacking football insight.

 

[nfoligno]

after boiling all this down this is what you are saying...

 

Hell no this is not what I am saying.

 

1. you have no problem with ownership. the mccaskey's are running this franchise just as well as the new england patriots and are as knowlegible as the rooney family when it comes to football knowlege and operations because they are related to george halas. they are completely blameless if the football operations in this franchise fail.

 

You have to be kidding me. At what point did I even come close to saying such. All I said was that our structure is not the problem. That doesn't mean I think the individuals in place are so great. Back to ownership, I specifically said a key reason I do not want to fire Turner is our ownership would then be in a position to make football decisions. I don't care what you think of Ted, I would take his decision making over Mikey and family. That alone shows I do not care for our ownership. My only comment close to positive about ownership was stating we were a founding franchise, which I brought up only because you said the Rooney family was a founding franchise, and implied that was a difference between them and us.

 

2. having said the previous you are content with ted phillips overseeing football operations in this franchise and are content with whatever process he chooses our GM with. being the president he doesn't need to know anything except how to structure contracts and be a lie'ason with the public to perform his duties.

 

When did I say I was content w/ Phillips overseeing football operations? I never did. The man below Phillips in in charge of football operations. Sure, he is over that GM, but then again, if you have a president/GM, then you still have football lacking ownership over that level. Regardless how you try to structure it, you are still going to have a non-football individual over football operations at some point.

 

I simply see little wrong w/ Ted. He is not over football operations. that is what we have a GM for. And for the record, he has little to do w/ contracts, other than approving the total spending probably, as we have I believe Jim Miller who deals w/ that. Ted fills the same role as the president of the Patriots. He doesn't get involved in the day to day affairs of the football team, but runs the franchise. That is a bigger deal than just being a PR man, or whatever else you want to minimize the job into.

 

3. you are ok with no accountability from anyone in upper management, especially our team president, if our current GM fails or our future GM's fail. the blame can be attributed to nameless, faceless corporations that find these key people for us. (incidently i would like you to post the facts with links to show how many other franchises choose their GM's this way and their success rate).

 

For the record, an article today mentioned our using the 3rd party to handle our search, and it also mentioned we did this at the request of the league, which as I recall, was at the time trying to push just such a partnership. Angelo is the only hire of Ted, and I have ripped Angelo to shreds over the years. W/ that said, often times a GM gets more than one coaching hire before he is fired. If the next GM Ted hires fails too, then yes, I would be more on board with Ted being on the hot seat. As of now, I just do not feel we are there. I would allow him another opportunity.

 

And how about the recent reports/rumors that we have put out feelers to the upper tier guys (Cowher, Shanny and Gruden). No 3rd party seems to be used here.

 

my crazy ideas...

 

1. hire a true professional that understands the football side of operations and who has the knowlege and expertise to 'hire' and fire a GM and understand the why of both. someone who can oversee various departments like college scouting and the draft. title? president.

 

How many teams have this? How many teams have a football guy as president, while also having a seperate GM. Seems to me when a team brings in that stud GM, they are also making him the teams president. I gave a couple examples of teams who have a non-football guy as pres w/ a football guy as GM. What teams are you trying to model after that have a football guy as pres and a sep GM.

 

Tenn has Fisher as both HC and President, while sharing GM duties essentially w/ the owner, Adams.

Indy has Polian as both president and GM.

Balt has Cass as President (an attorney) and below him is Newsome as the GM.

SD has Spanos as pres (he is the son of the CEO and a non-football guy) w/ AJ Smith as the GM

Phily has Banner as Prez, known as a salary cap/contract guru, w/ Reid as the HC/GM.

 

I struggle to find a team that follows the structure you think is not only best, but is basically the only way to do it right. Few teams, none I could find, have a football guy as prez w/ a different guy as the GM. Most teams that might have a Holmgren like Prez, would also have him as the GM. I am not saying that in itself is wrong, but it goes against your argument about checks and balance.

 

2. have this knowlegable president hire a new GM to run hands-on football operations and oversee the progress the new GM does or doesn't make.

 

Again, who does this?

 

3. have this GM accountable for drafting quality picks and players that are a need and have a GM that can see the long term effect of these drafts and how players will relate to the future health of the franchise.

 

No argument here. The argument is above this level. I agree Angelo has failed, and agree he needs to be replaced. We simply disagree that we must have a football guy above him.

 

have this new GM hire a new coaching staff that is qualified and not just working cheap to break into the head coaching position. something novel like one with previous head coach experience in the nfl and offense oriented.

 

No real argument here either.

[Lucky Luciano]

You have to be kidding me. At what point did I even come close to saying such. All I said was that our structure is not the problem. That doesn't mean I think the individuals in place are so great. Back to ownership, I specifically said a key reason I do not want to fire Turner is our ownership would then be in a position to make football decisions. I don't care what you think of Ted, I would take his decision making over Mikey and family. That alone shows I do not care for our ownership. My only comment close to positive about ownership was stating we were a founding franchise, which I brought up only because you said the Rooney family was a founding franchise, and implied that was a difference between them and us.

 

well, then if you "don't think the individuals are so great" why don't you? you believe they spend plenty of money, they keep their collective noses out of football operations, they have hired a president you approve of to run the franchise. what is left? 'speculation' that mike mccaskey MAY take over the presidents duties if phillips is moved into a different job in the franchise? that's it?

 

in regards to the rooney family and what i REALLY said:

 

i stated "the rooney family is one of the founders of the NFL. unlike our mccaskey's they seem to understand what it takes to run an organization in this era."

 

you stated "Pitt is family owned. Like Chicago. Oh, and by the way, we too are a one of the founders of the NFL."

 

if this doesn't imply both families are on a level playing field running a franchise what does it say?

 

When did I say I was content w/ Phillips overseeing football operations? I never did. The man below Phillips in in charge of football operations. Sure, he is over that GM, but then again, if you have a president/GM, then you still have football lacking ownership over that level. Regardless how you try to structure it, you are still going to have a non-football individual over football operations at some point.

 

I simply see little wrong w/ Ted. He is not over football operations. that is what we have a GM for. And for the record, he has little to do w/ contracts, other than approving the total spending probably, as we have I believe Jim Miller who deals w/ that. Ted fills the same role as the president of the Patriots. He doesn't get involved in the day to day affairs of the football team, but runs the franchise. That is a bigger deal than just being a PR man, or whatever else you want to minimize the job into.

 

catch-22: you state you are not content with phillips overseeing football operations? then just who makes the decisions to hire and fire a gm (the guy you say should be in charge of football operations)? you don't want the mccaskey's to do it and you imply you wouldn't be "content" with phillips overseeing this important part OF football operations. that leaves what/who exactly?

 

we have failed to address some of the most important aspects of a franchise, hiring a competent gm, for over two decades. is it possible we are doing it wrong and need a change? or should we just keep plodding on and on and on the same way making the same mistakes?

 

i would like to infer back to the 70's when we did have a competent president/vice president (i am more concerned with the position than the title. if it's vice pres instead of pres i have no problem with that aspect of just a name) in muggs halas. this was someone who DID understand football and the importance of bringing us into the modern era of football to win. HE was instrumental in bringing jim finks into our outdated system. yet he was still competent enough to realize if finks failed in his duties and what to do about it.

 

For the record, an article today mentioned our using the 3rd party to handle our search, and it also mentioned we did this at the request of the league, which as I recall, was at the time trying to push just such a partnership. Angelo is the only hire of Ted, and I have ripped Angelo to shreds over the years. W/ that said, often times a GM gets more than one coaching hire before he is fired. If the next GM Ted hires fails too, then yes, I would be more on board with Ted being on the hot seat. As of now, I just do not feel we are there. I would allow him another opportunity.

 

And how about the recent reports/rumors that we have put out feelers to the upper tier guys (Cowher, Shanny and Gruden). No 3rd party seems to be used here.

 

why do you think the nfl would have wanted to push us into ANY partnership let alone one that is this important? have they done this to anyone else? or is it only us because we had and still have nobody competent enough to make a good decision of that magnitude. they were tired of the stupidity of this franchise embarrassing the league!!! yet everyone including you seems content to repeat this again with basically no substantive changes having been made in a decade since it was enforced. we traded mikey for ted.

 

you say you are willing to give ted another chance. at what? hiring a firm to find us a GM? or of possibly wasting another 4 years to see if ted somehow has grown football knowledge over the last 8+ years? after watching angelo waste 8 years of drafts and having no input with our GM for doing that, where is the hope for something substancially better from him??

 

previous quote of mine: "my crazy ideas...

 

1. hire a true professional that understands the football side of operations and who has the knowlege and expertise to 'hire' and fire a GM and understand the why of both. someone who can oversee various departments like college scouting and the draft. title? president."

 

How many teams have this? How many teams have a football guy as president, while also having a seperate GM. Seems to me when a team brings in that stud GM, they are also making him the teams president. I gave a couple examples of teams who have a non-football guy as pres w/ a football guy as GM. What teams are you trying to model after that have a football guy as pres and a sep GM.

 

Tenn has Fisher as both HC and President, while sharing GM duties essentially w/ the owner, Adams.

Indy has Polian as both president and GM.

Balt has Cass as President (an attorney) and below him is Newsome as the GM.

SD has Spanos as pres (he is the son of the CEO and a non-football guy) w/ AJ Smith as the GM

Phily has Banner as Prez, known as a salary cap/contract guru, w/ Reid as the HC/GM.

 

I struggle to find a team that follows the structure you think is not only best, but is basically the only way to do it right. Few teams, none I could find, have a football guy as prez w/ a different guy as the GM. Most teams that might have a Holmgren like Prez, would also have him as the GM. I am not saying that in itself is wrong, but it goes against your argument about checks and balance.

 

here is one: http://www.packers.com/team/staff/murphy_mark/

 

a team that finds good talent nearly every draft. even if you want to go further back look at bob harlan who instrumented the hiring of gm ron wolf. harlan was at one time an assistant GM in green bay and had tons of football experience in management.

 

one item... i never said my way was the "only way" and right for every franchise. what i did say is that it is right for OURS because we lack anyone in authority with credible football intelligence, at least that i know of. if not a way to break out of this circle of madness then i would like to hear other alternatives different from the same old same old that have failed in chicago for years. what is YOUR solution?