Hindsight 20/20

[nfoligno]

This is going to get rip. I say this knowing such full well. But I honestly wonder if we would not have been just as well off keeping Turner for this coming season.

 

You hear it over and over again. Hell, Turner has preached it of late. It takes time for an offense to gell. We entered the season w/ very high expectations due to a QB unlike most of us living Bear fans can recall. It was soon obvious though how lacking our offense was. We had a pro bowl QB who struggled w/ the playcalling, decision making and showed little chemistry w/ his players. We had an OL that saw 3 out of 5 new faces, 2 of which were very green still in terms of starting. We had a WR corp which may have talent, but little in the way of polish. And a RB which looked great as a rookie, but had to run behind "that" OL and did so (recently reported) while struggling w/ injury.

 

Yet as the season came to an end, it could be argued that positive signs were seen.

 

Cutler finished the year on a very high, positive note. I think Vegas would have put strong odd against Cutler finishing the year w/ more TDs than picks, but that is what he did w/ a 7-1 ration to end the year. It was an up and down season, but one that also finished pretty strong.

 

The OL would never be mistaken for having played well. However, the change of the OTs was pretty big. Pace was just God-awful, while Williams finally looked to settle in at LT. On the other side, Shaffer was no pro bowler, but an upgrade over Williams RT play. Omiyale started out as one of the worse OL I have personally ever seen, but finished the year on a fairly positive note. Few are going to argue even the final product was anything special, but they did show improved play, development and chemistry.

 

At WR, wow was that a young and untested group. However, Bennett had a nice enough season, and the emergence of DA gave fans something to really be hopeful about.

 

I can't help but wonder if simply allowing Turner, along w/ the player, more time may have seen some of the improved play we all want.

 

On the other hand, we now have a new OC, who will bring a very different scheme. Cutler will now play for yet another OC, and yet another scheme. While most would say it takes time to learn and develop into a new scheme, time is not on Cutler or Martz' side. Similar, we have a young group of WR who will also have to learn a new, and often considered complet scheme, and lets not pretend our WRs are known for their smarts.

 

No question in my mind the OL and QB coaching changes were necessary. I was all for the Turner firing, but in hindsight, I honestly can't help but wonder if we would not have been better of simply sticking w/ Turner. New systems rarely hit the track running, and most often need time to develop. We just don't have that time. If things were different, some might argue we take a step back in order to take 3 forward, but w/ likely only one year to prove themselves, that step back wil be the final step.

 

Few here liked Turner, and I was (especially at the end) outspoken against him. At the same time, I can't help but wonder if we would not have been better off simply sticking w/ him. If this is likely the final year for our staff, chemistry and continuity may have been better than throwing out the entire offensive scheme and trying to start from scratch.

[madlithuanian]

I fully understand where you are coming from.

 

But I understand why the team let him go. They had to have a sacrificial lamb. Someone had to take the blame if Smith and Angelo weren't. With that said, I've never thought much of Turner. he did a fine job with Kramer eons ago, but that was then, and the NFL is a different beast. The one thing that gnaws at me is that if he were to stay, it'd be a virtual lock fro the regime to be ousted. Whereas, there's potnetial for Martz to actually do something good, thus resulting in keeping the goons.

 

 

 

 

This is going to get rip. I say this knowing such full well. But I honestly wonder if we would not have been just as well off keeping Turner for this coming season.

 

You hear it over and over again. Hell, Turner has preached it of late. It takes time for an offense to gell. We entered the season w/ very high expectations due to a QB unlike most of us living Bear fans can recall. It was soon obvious though how lacking our offense was. We had a pro bowl QB who struggled w/ the playcalling, decision making and showed little chemistry w/ his players. We had an OL that saw 3 out of 5 new faces, 2 of which were very green still in terms of starting. We had a WR corp which may have talent, but little in the way of polish. And a RB which looked great as a rookie, but had to run behind "that" OL and did so (recently reported) while struggling w/ injury.

 

Yet as the season came to an end, it could be argued that positive signs were seen.

 

Cutler finished the year on a very high, positive note. I think Vegas would have put strong odd against Cutler finishing the year w/ more TDs than picks, but that is what he did w/ a 7-1 ration to end the year. It was an up and down season, but one that also finished pretty strong.

 

The OL would never be mistaken for having played well. However, the change of the OTs was pretty big. Pace was just God-awful, while Williams finally looked to settle in at LT. On the other side, Shaffer was no pro bowler, but an upgrade over Williams RT play. Omiyale started out as one of the worse OL I have personally ever seen, but finished the year on a fairly positive note. Few are going to argue even the final product was anything special, but they did show improved play, development and chemistry.

 

At WR, wow was that a young and untested group. However, Bennett had a nice enough season, and the emergence of DA gave fans something to really be hopeful about.

 

I can't help but wonder if simply allowing Turner, along w/ the player, more time may have seen some of the improved play we all want.

 

On the other hand, we now have a new OC, who will bring a very different scheme. Cutler will now play for yet another OC, and yet another scheme. While most would say it takes time to learn and develop into a new scheme, time is not on Cutler or Martz' side. Similar, we have a young group of WR who will also have to learn a new, and often considered complet scheme, and lets not pretend our WRs are known for their smarts.

 

No question in my mind the OL and QB coaching changes were necessary. I was all for the Turner firing, but in hindsight, I honestly can't help but wonder if we would not have been better of simply sticking w/ Turner. New systems rarely hit the track running, and most often need time to develop. We just don't have that time. If things were different, some might argue we take a step back in order to take 3 forward, but w/ likely only one year to prove themselves, that step back wil be the final step.

 

Few here liked Turner, and I was (especially at the end) outspoken against him. At the same time, I can't help but wonder if we would not have been better off simply sticking w/ him. If this is likely the final year for our staff, chemistry and continuity may have been better than throwing out the entire offensive scheme and trying to start from scratch.

 

[ParkerBear7]

NFO,

 

I do not disagree with your logic and I would even add that the Bears might as well kept Turner for Cutler's sake since LOVIE et ol was retianing thier jobs. Then the could have no regret cleaning house for 2011 should they fail to meet expectations.

 

Turner has been a huge upgrade ove his previous 2 predecessors so my opinion on him is not all bad but we probably have seen the best of what he has to offer by now. My biggest problem with Turner was his lack of creativity to create mismatch nor getting his playmakers in position to be succesful. The players on this team are professionals and think they will adapt to the new coaches / schemes and probably welcome the change.

 

 

 

[AZ54]

I can see the logic but Harry had to go and I think those two were tied at the hip. I felt Lovie should have been gone but he's not so he gets the chance to get it right one last time. If Lovie felt Turner was his best chance to succeed he should have kept him. Otherwise this puts Lovie squarely on the hot seat and that's where he belongs. However, you are correct in that we've framed a very bad situation with a HC on the hot seat in search of new coordinators.

[Mongo3451]

Not gonna get ripped by me, because I said it the day BEFORE they fired him.

[bowlingtwig]

Not gonna get ripped by me, because I said it the day BEFORE they fired him.

I don't disagree with your logic as all your points that you are made are legit and everyone here has seen me sing the praises of the "bad" WR corp that everyone said at the beginning of the year. Though showed last year that they are very much young and inexperienced but given more time with Cutler specifically and I think we will do just fine. If we can get a #1 I am all for it but I don't want us to bring in anyone else. As far Oline is concerned, they were pieced together and its a proven fact that Oline needs time together to really start getting good. If they oline stays together but Tice is able to teach them even more like I am sure he can I am optimistic we will be better. Still worry because of the 5-7 step drop backs required to run a Mike Martz system though. Here is a few stats though to think over. Every where Martz has gone the team has had immediate success. In '98(the year before Martz) the Rams were 22nd in passing, 29th is rushing and 27th overall, in his year they improved dramatically finishing 1st in passing, 5th in rushing and 1st overall. If you remember right that was with Warner who was a backup QB and took over because Green got hurt during pre season. In Detroit the year prior to him arriving they were 26th in passing, 26th in rushing and 27th overall. His first year there they went to 7th in passing, but 32nd in rushing and 22nd overall. Prior to him arriving in san fran they were 32nd in passing, 27thth in rushing and 32nd overall he improved them his first year to 13th in passing, 29th in rushing and 23rd overall. Although they dropped in rushing from 27 to 29th please note that they improved yards per game from 92 to 99.9. Last year we finished 17th in passing, 29th in rushing and 23rd overall. Any takers on how we might finish this year given Martz immediate success that he has had now.

[nfoligno]

One aspect I am not sure I agree w/ is that Harry and Turner were so tied at the hip. I know Turner brought Harry into the fold, but I honestly have not read that many stories talking about their being BFFs. On the other hand, you have Lovie and his BFF Babich, and after two failed seasons, Babich found himself demoted. Sure, we can talk about his maintaining the DC title for a year, but everyone knows he was demoted, and this year he loses the title along w/ duties. If Lovie could do this to his BFF, I really do not think there would be so great of an issue w/ Turner/Harry. Also, Turner really has no say. Its one thing when you are talking about back in the day when Jauron stood up to Angelo for his buddy Shoop, or even recent with Lovie standing up for Babich, but in those situations, you are talking about the HC taking a stand. The OC has no power or control over his assistants.

 

I can see the logic but Harry had to go and I think those two were tied at the hip. I felt Lovie should have been gone but he's not so he gets the chance to get it right one last time. If Lovie felt Turner was his best chance to succeed he should have kept him. Otherwise this puts Lovie squarely on the hot seat and that's where he belongs. However, you are correct in that we've framed a very bad situation with a HC on the hot seat in search of new coordinators.

 

[nfoligno]

Regarding Martz this year, one huge stat that concerns me is Cutler's picks. If Cutler continues to toss picks, I really fear it affecting him mentally. While QBs under Martz in Det and SF put up more passing yards, at the same time, they also threw a bunch of picks.

 

Cutler took a lot of crap this past year for the number of picks he threw. Some were no his fault, but some were, and regardless, he took massive crap for the large number of picks tossed. What happens under Martz. If Cutler throws for a ton of yards under Martz, great, but if he at the same time throws a ton of picks, could that not be more of a negative than the big yardage be a positive?

 

I don't disagree with your logic as all your points that you are made are legit and everyone here has seen me sing the praises of the "bad" WR corp that everyone said at the beginning of the year. Though showed last year that they are very much young and inexperienced but given more time with Cutler specifically and I think we will do just fine. If we can get a #1 I am all for it but I don't want us to bring in anyone else. As far Oline is concerned, they were pieced together and its a proven fact that Oline needs time together to really start getting good. If they oline stays together but Tice is able to teach them even more like I am sure he can I am optimistic we will be better. Still worry because of the 5-7 step drop backs required to run a Mike Martz system though. Here is a few stats though to think over. Every where Martz has gone the team has had immediate success. In '98(the year before Martz) the Rams were 22nd in passing, 29th is rushing and 27th overall, in his year they improved dramatically finishing 1st in passing, 5th in rushing and 1st overall. If you remember right that was with Warner who was a backup QB and took over because Green got hurt during pre season. In Detroit the year prior to him arriving they were 26th in passing, 26th in rushing and 27th overall. His first year there they went to 7th in passing, but 32nd in rushing and 22nd overall. Prior to him arriving in san fran they were 32nd in passing, 27thth in rushing and 32nd overall he improved them his first year to 13th in passing, 29th in rushing and 23rd overall. Although they dropped in rushing from 27 to 29th please note that they improved yards per game from 92 to 99.9. Last year we finished 17th in passing, 29th in rushing and 23rd overall. Any takers on how we might finish this year given Martz immediate success that he has had now.

 

[bowlingtwig]

Regarding Martz this year, one huge stat that concerns me is Cutler's picks. If Cutler continues to toss picks, I really fear it affecting him mentally. While QBs under Martz in Det and SF put up more passing yards, at the same time, they also threw a bunch of picks.

 

Cutler took a lot of crap this past year for the number of picks he threw. Some were no his fault, but some were, and regardless, he took massive crap for the large number of picks tossed. What happens under Martz. If Cutler throws for a ton of yards under Martz, great, but if he at the same time throws a ton of picks, could that not be more of a negative than the big yardage be a positive?

If he throws 30 picks but yet we still win Super Bowl, who cares. Bottom line is the W's. I do get what your saying but I would think they would come down though especially with him become more and more familiar with the WR's.

[nfoligno]

No question it is all about Ws, but I think most would agree that interceptions often make it difficult to rack up those Ws.

 

Sure, being more familiar w/ his WRs is going to help. At the same time though, both he and the WRs will be working in a very different scheme, thus much of that familiarity could go out the window.

 

One of the big reported positives about the QB coach from GB (though I never wanted him) was how he managed to keep Farve aggressive, while reducing the turnovers. Martz however gets QBs to play aggressive, but they also appear to throw more picks than TDs.

 

If he throws 30 picks but yet we still win Super Bowl, who cares. Bottom line is the W's. I do get what your saying but I would think they would come down though especially with him become more and more familiar with the WR's.

 

[jason]

Like others, I completely understand the point of your post. But the answer I have is, you miss all the shots you don't take. With Turner, we have seen over and over that he will not provide anything substantial. He will not show improvement. He will continue to make absolutely ignorant, pee-wee football calls. I just couldn't deal with that for another season.

 

This is going to get rip. I say this knowing such full well. But I honestly wonder if we would not have been just as well off keeping Turner for this coming season.

 

You hear it over and over again. Hell, Turner has preached it of late. It takes time for an offense to gell. We entered the season w/ very high expectations due to a QB unlike most of us living Bear fans can recall. It was soon obvious though how lacking our offense was. We had a pro bowl QB who struggled w/ the playcalling, decision making and showed little chemistry w/ his players. We had an OL that saw 3 out of 5 new faces, 2 of which were very green still in terms of starting. We had a WR corp which may have talent, but little in the way of polish. And a RB which looked great as a rookie, but had to run behind "that" OL and did so (recently reported) while struggling w/ injury.

 

Yet as the season came to an end, it could be argued that positive signs were seen.

 

Cutler finished the year on a very high, positive note. I think Vegas would have put strong odd against Cutler finishing the year w/ more TDs than picks, but that is what he did w/ a 7-1 ration to end the year. It was an up and down season, but one that also finished pretty strong.

 

The OL would never be mistaken for having played well. However, the change of the OTs was pretty big. Pace was just God-awful, while Williams finally looked to settle in at LT. On the other side, Shaffer was no pro bowler, but an upgrade over Williams RT play. Omiyale started out as one of the worse OL I have personally ever seen, but finished the year on a fairly positive note. Few are going to argue even the final product was anything special, but they did show improved play, development and chemistry.

 

At WR, wow was that a young and untested group. However, Bennett had a nice enough season, and the emergence of DA gave fans something to really be hopeful about.

 

I can't help but wonder if simply allowing Turner, along w/ the player, more time may have seen some of the improved play we all want.

 

On the other hand, we now have a new OC, who will bring a very different scheme. Cutler will now play for yet another OC, and yet another scheme. While most would say it takes time to learn and develop into a new scheme, time is not on Cutler or Martz' side. Similar, we have a young group of WR who will also have to learn a new, and often considered complet scheme, and lets not pretend our WRs are known for their smarts.

 

No question in my mind the OL and QB coaching changes were necessary. I was all for the Turner firing, but in hindsight, I honestly can't help but wonder if we would not have been better of simply sticking w/ Turner. New systems rarely hit the track running, and most often need time to develop. We just don't have that time. If things were different, some might argue we take a step back in order to take 3 forward, but w/ likely only one year to prove themselves, that step back wil be the final step.

 

Few here liked Turner, and I was (especially at the end) outspoken against him. At the same time, I can't help but wonder if we would not have been better off simply sticking w/ him. If this is likely the final year for our staff, chemistry and continuity may have been better than throwing out the entire offensive scheme and trying to start from scratch.

 

[Daventry]

All of the problems with O weren't Turner's fault, but he had some time to help things improve and he never did. With the crappy year last year, something had to change, and it might as well have been him if it couldn't be Lovie. I won't shed any tears he is gone, and I think Martz brings experience to the table and gives a reason to be optimistic. I am sure he knows if he doesn't deliver he will be having beers with Turner at the Out of a Job pub....

[AZ54]

One aspect I am not sure I agree w/ is that Harry and Turner were so tied at the hip. I know Turner brought Harry into the fold, but I honestly have not read that many stories talking about their being BFFs. On the other hand, you have Lovie and his BFF Babich, and after two failed seasons, Babich found himself demoted. Sure, we can talk about his maintaining the DC title for a year, but everyone knows he was demoted, and this year he loses the title along w/ duties. If Lovie could do this to his BFF, I really do not think there would be so great of an issue w/ Turner/Harry. Also, Turner really has no say. Its one thing when you are talking about back in the day when Jauron stood up to Angelo for his buddy Shoop, or even recent with Lovie standing up for Babich, but in those situations, you are talking about the HC taking a stand. The OC has no power or control over his assistants.

 

Turner essentially had free reign over the offense so while he didn't have authority to fire/hire I'm pretty sure he could have gone to Lovie and said I need better help coaching the Oline and a change would have been made. IMO if Turner asked for that it would have fit in with all the changes after the bad 2008 season and the poor Oline play and I can't imagine Lovie refusing the request. If he did we should have fired Lovie back then.

 

We're going to get a chance to see if it's talent or coaching/system when we see what Tice does with these guys because I can't see any significant changes coming to the Oline via FA or draft. I don't consider a 3rd Rd OG a significant talent although that's likely the best pick we can make.

[LT2_3]

Turner essentially had free reign over the offense so while he didn't have authority to fire/hire I'm pretty sure he could have gone to Lovie and said I need better help coaching the Oline and a change would have been made. IMO if Turner asked for that it would have fit in with all the changes after the bad 2008 season and the poor Oline play and I can't imagine Lovie refusing the request. If he did we should have fired Lovie back then.

 

Not to eff you up too bad here, ( I usually agree with most of what you say) but the consensus was that it was the players that needed to change. Harry didn't get them working together right until late in the season. That's what hurt him.

 

We're going to get a chance to see if it's talent or coaching/system when we see what Tice does with these guys because I can't see any significant changes coming to the Oline via FA or draft. I don't consider a 3rd Rd OG a significant talent although that's likely the best pick we can make.

 

There may be surprising guys available. We'll have to wait and see. I think some teams are going to try and prove that they aren't making enough money from a CBA perspective, and Angelo is on the hot seat and will be looking for bargains.

 

I think Tice will get more out of them though. That's his thing - making guys expected to be average or worse, better.

[nfoligno]

Not to eff you up too bad here, ( I usually agree with most of what you say) but the consensus was that it was the players that needed to change. Harry didn't get them working together right until late in the season. That's what hurt him.

 

Consensus of who? No one is going to argue our OL talent was lacking. At the same time, more than enough also called Harry into question. Frankly, I have called him out for years. While we may not have spent nearly enough draft picks on our OL, I still think there has been more than enough reason to question the player development along that unit.

 

Heck, even when we have a young player who seems to have developed, the staff can still be questioned, like:

 

Beekman - Here is a guy who the coaches flat out said was not an OG, and would not even give him an opportunity to work there in camp. Then several OL go down w/ injury, and the coaches have to move Beekman to LG just to have a body. Beekman does well and "takes" the starting job. Next year though, he is moved again, and again essentially dismissed by our staff.

 

Williams - Few in the draft thought he could play RT. In fact, one of the knocks on Williams was the belief he was boom/bust based on the believe he would either make it at LT or not at all, while other potential LTs can move to RT or inside if they can't play LT. The belief was Williams was very well suited to play LT, but lacking at other positions. So what do we do? We move him to RT and he looks awful. Hell, the only reason we even got to look at him at LT this year was Pace going down with injury.

 

Angelo has not brought in a bevy of talent along the OLs, but at the same time, harry has done a crap job working with the players who are brought in. I would also like to add how freaking bad our OL seems to be in blitz recognition and pickup. Every year our OL seems to struggle against any sort of misdirection pass rush. Whether that comes from stunts, shifting, blitzes or whater, our OL seems to be clueless who they are supposed to pickup. That is 100% on the OL coach IMHO.

 

There may be surprising guys available. We'll have to wait and see. I think some teams are going to try and prove that they aren't making enough money from a CBA perspective, and Angelo is on the hot seat and will be looking for bargains.

 

That is sort of the point though. Angelo will be looking for bargains. How much can we expect to upgrade with bargains?

 

I think Tice will get more out of them though. That's his thing - making guys expected to be average or worse, better.

 

No offense, but isn't that exactly what everyone said about Marinelli and the DL last year? I don't have a ton of hope for our OL as a whole this year. What I am really hoping to get from Tice, and see from our OL, is:

 

Williams develop into a franchise LT, or at least show further positive signs that is where he is headed. Williams becoming a 10 year LT for us would be huge.

 

Further the development of other young OL on the roster, like Beekman, Omiyale, Louis and any rookies we draft.

 

I don't expect big things this year. Talent isn't great. Chemistry will not be great. And the offense overall will be going through massive changes. I don't think Kreutz, Garza or Shaffer are part of the long term plan, and may not even be part of the post 2010 plan. So for me, the biggest key to 2010 is seeing solid development from the young OL we have on the roster now, and those who we will add this year.

[nfoligno]

Jason,

 

Of all people on this board, at no point in time did I expect you to agree with me. In fact, I frankly expected a longer, and much more critical reply from you.

 

For one thing, you like the potential Martz brings. You have hated our offense since the departure of Crowton. While Crowton was a failure by most standards, you still preferred him as he was exciting and had a new and attacking mentality. In many ways, Martz is a more experienced and greatly improved resume version of Crowton. So it is obvious why you would love the move to Martz.

 

I don't. I "might" feel a tad different if I believe his running of the offense would be for more than one year. Probably not, but that would at least kill one of my key arguments. I just believe running Martz' offense will take time for our players to learn and then produce. Make no mistake. There will be plenty of big plays to get excited about, but IMHO, there will still be a total lack of consistency, and thus we will still lose in the end. If he were more than a one year coach, which is simply what I believe, there may be a greater element of hope of our players not just learning the playbook, but running it w/o having to think about it, and thus producing on a consistent basis.

 

Even then, I have my doubts about Martz fit for our team though.

 

Back to Turner, you will get no argument from me that he was lacking overall as an OC, but at the same time, I also think the lack of talent made him look worse than he is. While there is more that he could have done, a lot more, at the same time, I don't think I can recall an team ever winning w/ an OL as bad as ours was last year. Then add in Forte's fallen star, and our #2 going down before the season go going, not to mention the entire offense having to try and create chemisty around a new QB, and I think there was a recipe for disaster. Turner didn't do enough to hold off such disaster, but honestly, I question how many OCs would have looked good w/ an OL such as ours.

 

Most everyone talking about Martz as a positive seems to throw in there "if the OL is improved." Well, I can't help but wonder if Turner may not have looked better if the OL were improved and the players having the year of working with each other.

 

Like others, I completely understand the point of your post. But the answer I have is, you miss all the shots you don't take. With Turner, we have seen over and over that he will not provide anything substantial. He will not show improvement. He will continue to make absolutely ignorant, pee-wee football calls. I just couldn't deal with that for another season.

 

[CrackerDog]

The only problem I have with Turner's firing is that it took a year or two too long to do.

 

As for Martz, this is a one year experiment for the entire staff. If things don't come together quickly, the whole shooting match is going to hell. And the Bears may actually hope 2011 is a year without football. They could bring in Cowher and have him slowly put his pieces in place.

 

With that said, I'm excited about the Bears next year and I wouldn't have been with Turner at OC. At least it'll be different. Perhaps not better. Time will tell.

 

Nothing will improve unless we get some horses in the O Line and the D backfield. Hell, I called for Hester to be traded or cut and now with Martz on board, the kid may have a lot of upside. Who knows.

 

Forte should get back to form in 2010 assuming he's healthy. The O is no longer the biggest concern. This defense is old and doesn't have a lot of depth or headline talent.

[AZ54]

Not to eff you up too bad here, ( I usually agree with most of what you say) but the consensus was that it was the players that needed to change. Harry didn't get them working together right until late in the season. That's what hurt him.

 

 

 

There may be surprising guys available. We'll have to wait and see. I think some teams are going to try and prove that they aren't making enough money from a CBA perspective, and Angelo is on the hot seat and will be looking for bargains.

 

I think Tice will get more out of them though. That's his thing - making guys expected to be average or worse, better.

 

I welcome differing opinions but I'm curious how you came to hear the "consensus" was a lack of talent since I don't recall that being reported. Of course the facts work in your favor since we kept the Oline coach and added new pieces in Pace, Omiyale, Shaffer. However, I'll also use that fact to further prove my point that Harry couldn't coach up anyone on that line because no matter who we put in things didn't get better.

 

I use the Cardinals as my point of reference since they've made it to the Superbowl and again to the playoffs with Bears castoff Mike Gandy as their LT, and really don't have anyone on their Oline who stands out. Some will point out Levi Brown but he's not very good in pass protection yet they still made it work. The Cards also had Kurt "statue" Warner behind center versus our mobile QB. I'm not looking to get into Cards offense vs. Bears offense debate I'm just pointing out that other teams Oline can play well enough even when they have average talent.