Devil's advocate

[Alaskan Grizzly]

OK. A good number here have gone back and forth on whether the Bears should entertain bringing in a veteran WR, like Boldin or Holt, with those opposed seemingly and in concert saying that the current staff (of WR's) is fine and not to mess with it. Further those in support of that "argument" state that bringing in a veteran player like the above mentioned would also hamper those currently on the staff from getting in the game and being noticed. One thing that a lot of folks agree with, for or against, is that Turner was unable to test the talent around him as he didn't have a creative bone in his body. So, now that Martz is in the fold and seeing another post say that they think he is the "total opposite" I pose this quandary.

 

Using the same thought process why are so many thinking the Bears need more help in the OL, DL and FS positions? I, for one, think the current DL staff isn't all that bad especially when you consider the rotation idea that Lovie has been implementing as of late. Heck, you have two (last year) rookies that have yet to show their ability; Melton and Gilbert. A lot of people here further stated that they believed the team started to show marked improvement in the last two games, both on Offense and Defense. Particularly in the Minnesota game where it was virtually "2nd teamers" playing on the Defense. If that is the case why this sudden need for OL and FS?

 

On FS. There are two relatively brand new players in Al Afalava (Oregon rookie in 09) and Craig Steltz (LSU rookie in 08) that actually showed some promise both early in the season and late in the season, mostly Steltz as Afalava was injured. Now if it is backup that you are concerned with, how will you go about finding that? More on that in a minute.

 

On OL. I would be ok with the release of Pace. He is beyond his prime and didn't seem to improve at all as the season progressed. Williams was able to prove his worth and need to stay at the LT position. Kreutz, IMHO, still has a few good years left in him. He is a leader and still has the drive to play. Garza, most will agree, is still solid. Of the not-so-sures, Shaffer seemed to have something left and played admirably at the RT but more time will prove otherwise or not. Omiyale? Well, like Pace I wouldn't be so broken up if he were shown the door either. He couldn't do anything right. Which brings me to the unproven talent. Again, keep in mind the argument has been made about bringing in a veteran player and displacing the unknown talent. In that group (at OL) we have a veritable host of unknowns; Josh Beekman (Boston College rookie in 07) - who a lot of folks here and on other sites think could be the missing piece on the OL the Bears need, in place of Omiyale. Tyler Reed (Penn State rookie in 06) plays Guard. Anyone ever seen him play? James Marten (Boston College rookie in 07) plays Tackle, does he know Beekman? And lastly, Lance Louis (San Diego State rookie in 09) listed as both a Tackle and Guard so which is it? I know someone is going to tell me that most of these guys are on the Practice Roster but really how many more OLmen do the Bears need? If it's just one or two players that need replacing, on the starting line, why can't one of these four be the solution?

 

So going back to the original question. Where is the solution to either of these positions? (Of those in the opinion that they need fixing). FA? Again, I would cite the counter argument made that bringing in another veteran could only delay or hamper some of the unproven youth already on the team. Is it in the draft? How much an impact do any of you believe can be found at 3rd round that could or should displace the current players at any of the positions mentioned above? Then there is the trade option. But that is a totally different topic of discussion altogether.

[nfoligno]

I debated how to go about this, and just decided to go paragraph by paragraph.

 

OK. A good number here have gone back and forth on whether the Bears should entertain bringing in a veteran WR, like Boldin or Holt, with those opposed seemingly and in concert saying that the current staff (of WR's) is fine and not to mess with it. Further those in support of that "argument" state that bringing in a veteran player like the above mentioned would also hamper those currently on the staff from getting in the game and being noticed. One thing that a lot of folks agree with, for or against, is that Turner was unable to test the talent around him as he didn't have a creative bone in his body. So, now that Martz is in the fold and seeing another post say that they think he is the "total opposite" I pose this quandary.

 

Using the same thought process why are so many thinking the Bears need more help in the OL, DL and FS positions? I, for one, think the current DL staff isn't all that bad especially when you consider the rotation idea that Lovie has been implementing as of late. Heck, you have two (last year) rookies that have yet to show their ability; Melton and Gilbert. A lot of people here further stated that they believed the team started to show marked improvement in the last two games, both on Offense and Defense. Particularly in the Minnesota game where it was virtually "2nd teamers" playing on the Defense. If that is the case why this sudden need for OL and FS?

 

Okay, I would say our situation at WR and those three units are nothing close.

 

First, WR. Hester, Bennett and Knox all saw large playing time this past year, and IMHO, all played well. DA got to play in the final quarter of the season, and also looked impressive. Iglesias, is an unknown. Yes, I have made my opinion known, but have never particularly used him in the argument for or against WR being a stable position. But this is an old argument between us. Looking instead at units you mention.

 

You say the current DL isn't all the bad? Honestly, I have to wonder if you are just saying this in an attempt to make an argument, or whether you truly believe as such.

 

Alex Brown is not going to suddenly get better. Wale is gone, and Anderson (under Marinelli) showed little to nothing. Harris just can't be counted on. Okay, but we have a group of young players like Harrison, Melton and Gilbert. But how can you compare this trio w/ the WRs. What have any of these young DL shown? I would argue we have yet to see so much as a flash or tease of squat from any of them. W/ the exception of Iglesias, we have a trio of young WRs (not counting Hester) that really stepped up when given an opportunity this year. Can you say the same of those young DL? Harrison didn't even care enough to show up in shape, and never did jack through the year. Gilbert? Nada. Melton. Injured, but the point is still he has yet to show jack. How can you begin to compare the youth on the DL which has not shown us squat, to the younth on the WR unit, which went above I think everyones expectations.

 

On FS. There are two relatively brand new players in Al Afalava (Oregon rookie in 09) and Craig Steltz (LSU rookie in 08) that actually showed some promise both early in the season and late in the season, mostly Steltz as Afalava was injured. Now if it is backup that you are concerned with, how will you go about finding that? More on that in a minute.

 

Both are SS's. Sure, they may have been played at FS at times, but neither have the coverage ability to be a FS. They are frankly the same safety as Harris, Green, Payne and a 1/2 dozen other safeties we have tried. It is because of the play of those like Steltz and Afalava that you don't hear any really talking about the need to seek a SS. FS is another story. Again, are you just trying to make an argument here, or do you truly believe one of these two can be a capable centerfielder.

 

On OL. I would be ok with the release of Pace. He is beyond his prime and didn't seem to improve at all as the season progressed. Williams was able to prove his worth and need to stay at the LT position. Kreutz, IMHO, still has a few good years left in him. He is a leader and still has the drive to play. Garza, most will agree, is still solid. Of the not-so-sures, Shaffer seemed to have something left and played admirably at the RT but more time will prove otherwise or not. Omiyale? Well, like Pace I wouldn't be so broken up if he were shown the door either. He couldn't do anything right. Which brings me to the unproven talent. Again, keep in mind the argument has been made about bringing in a veteran player and displacing the unknown talent. In that group (at OL) we have a veritable host of unknowns; Josh Beekman (Boston College rookie in 07) - who a lot of folks here and on other sites think could be the missing piece on the OL the Bears need, in place of Omiyale. Tyler Reed (Penn State rookie in 06) plays Guard. Anyone ever seen him play? James Marten (Boston College rookie in 07) plays Tackle, does he know Beekman? And lastly, Lance Louis (San Diego State rookie in 09) listed as both a Tackle and Guard so which is it? I know someone is going to tell me that most of these guys are on the Practice Roster but really how many more OLmen do the Bears need? If it's just one or two players that need replacing, on the starting line, why can't one of these four be the solution?

 

Kreutz is the leader, no question, but I think many would have varied opinions on the level of his play at this point. Also, you say he has a few years left, but he has only one season left on his contract. I am not 100% most would agree Garza is solid. I think most would agree he is at least a "lesser of evils" but I am not sure I would go so far as to say solid.

 

Okay, get away from those we saw last season. This is where you really begin to reach IMHO. Like w/ the young DL rookies of 2009, you try and compare some young OL who have never made it onto the field w/ the young WRs who really stepped up this year. Further, while we have a couple 3rd rounders and a 5th invested in those young players at WR, you are trying to compare them w/ a bunch of 6th and 7th round picks who just barely made the roster. Beekman, for the record, is an exception to this. But you really want to use the likes of Reed, Marten, Louis to compare w/ Bennett, Knox and DA?

 

And for a 3rd time, I really have to question whether you even believe this. So you are telling me you are happy w/ our OL. Maybe drop Pace and add someone, who cares who, because we have an abundance of young talent who can step in and step up. You are comfortable with Cutler being protected by Reed, Louis, etc.

 

For ther record, before we end the need discusion, I would add CB. Tillman has been going downhill steadily for a few years now. Bowman stepped in and stepped up, which is great, but Graham seemed to take a step back this past year under Hoke and there are more than a few questioning whether Moore (last years rookie) has any potential in the NFL at 5'7. We are thin at the starter level, and transparient in depth.

 

So going back to the original question. Where is the solution to either of these positions? (Of those in the opinion that they need fixing). FA? Again, I would cite the counter argument made that bringing in another veteran could only delay or hamper some of the unproven youth already on the team. Is it in the draft? How much an impact do any of you believe can be found at 3rd round that could or should displace the current players at any of the positions mentioned above? Then there is the trade option. But that is a totally different topic of discussion altogether.

 

Come on man. At WR, we have a group of players which (a) represent a fair amount of draft picks and ( have proven worthy of their snaps. If our young Wrs either (a) never saw the field this past year or ( failed as poorly as the likes of Harrison at DT, do you really believe I, or any others, would be arguing they need to stay on the field to develop. No. I am not saying they need to be further developed just because they are young and I assume all young players will develop into something special. I say it because in Bennett, DA and Knox, we have seen that potential already begin to produce on the field. Can you say the same about the younth at the other positions you talk about.

 

Further, I would argue that very young group of WRs played better last year than did the OL, DL or secondary. While our young WRs stepped up, most of the young players at those other units tripped and bit their tongue.

[bowlingtwig]

I debated how to go about this, and just decided to go paragraph by paragraph.

 

OK. A good number here have gone back and forth on whether the Bears should entertain bringing in a veteran WR, like Boldin or Holt, with those opposed seemingly and in concert saying that the current staff (of WR's) is fine and not to mess with it. Further those in support of that "argument" state that bringing in a veteran player like the above mentioned would also hamper those currently on the staff from getting in the game and being noticed. One thing that a lot of folks agree with, for or against, is that Turner was unable to test the talent around him as he didn't have a creative bone in his body. So, now that Martz is in the fold and seeing another post say that they think he is the "total opposite" I pose this quandary.

 

Using the same thought process why are so many thinking the Bears need more help in the OL, DL and FS positions? I, for one, think the current DL staff isn't all that bad especially when you consider the rotation idea that Lovie has been implementing as of late. Heck, you have two (last year) rookies that have yet to show their ability; Melton and Gilbert. A lot of people here further stated that they believed the team started to show marked improvement in the last two games, both on Offense and Defense. Particularly in the Minnesota game where it was virtually "2nd teamers" playing on the Defense. If that is the case why this sudden need for OL and FS?

 

Okay, I would say our situation at WR and those three units are nothing close.

 

First, WR. Hester, Bennett and Knox all saw large playing time this past year, and IMHO, all played well. DA got to play in the final quarter of the season, and also looked impressive. Iglesias, is an unknown. Yes, I have made my opinion known, but have never particularly used him in the argument for or against WR being a stable position. But this is an old argument between us. Looking instead at units you mention.

 

You say the current DL isn't all the bad? Honestly, I have to wonder if you are just saying this in an attempt to make an argument, or whether you truly believe as such.

 

Alex Brown is not going to suddenly get better. Wale is gone, and Anderson (under Marinelli) showed little to nothing. Harris just can't be counted on. Okay, but we have a group of young players like Harrison, Melton and Gilbert. But how can you compare this trio w/ the WRs. What have any of these young DL shown? I would argue we have yet to see so much as a flash or tease of squat from any of them. W/ the exception of Iglesias, we have a trio of young WRs (not counting Hester) that really stepped up when given an opportunity this year. Can you say the same of those young DL? Harrison didn't even care enough to show up in shape, and never did jack through the year. Gilbert? Nada. Melton. Injured, but the point is still he has yet to show jack. How can you begin to compare the youth on the DL which has not shown us squat, to the younth on the WR unit, which went above I think everyones expectations.

 

On FS. There are two relatively brand new players in Al Afalava (Oregon rookie in 09) and Craig Steltz (LSU rookie in 08) that actually showed some promise both early in the season and late in the season, mostly Steltz as Afalava was injured. Now if it is backup that you are concerned with, how will you go about finding that? More on that in a minute.

 

Both are SS's. Sure, they may have been played at FS at times, but neither have the coverage ability to be a FS. They are frankly the same safety as Harris, Green, Payne and a 1/2 dozen other safeties we have tried. It is because of the play of those like Steltz and Afalava that you don't hear any really talking about the need to seek a SS. FS is another story. Again, are you just trying to make an argument here, or do you truly believe one of these two can be a capable centerfielder.

 

On OL. I would be ok with the release of Pace. He is beyond his prime and didn't seem to improve at all as the season progressed. Williams was able to prove his worth and need to stay at the LT position. Kreutz, IMHO, still has a few good years left in him. He is a leader and still has the drive to play. Garza, most will agree, is still solid. Of the not-so-sures, Shaffer seemed to have something left and played admirably at the RT but more time will prove otherwise or not. Omiyale? Well, like Pace I wouldn't be so broken up if he were shown the door either. He couldn't do anything right. Which brings me to the unproven talent. Again, keep in mind the argument has been made about bringing in a veteran player and displacing the unknown talent. In that group (at OL) we have a veritable host of unknowns; Josh Beekman (Boston College rookie in 07) - who a lot of folks here and on other sites think could be the missing piece on the OL the Bears need, in place of Omiyale. Tyler Reed (Penn State rookie in 06) plays Guard. Anyone ever seen him play? James Marten (Boston College rookie in 07) plays Tackle, does he know Beekman? And lastly, Lance Louis (San Diego State rookie in 09) listed as both a Tackle and Guard so which is it? I know someone is going to tell me that most of these guys are on the Practice Roster but really how many more OLmen do the Bears need? If it's just one or two players that need replacing, on the starting line, why can't one of these four be the solution?

 

Kreutz is the leader, no question, but I think many would have varied opinions on the level of his play at this point. Also, you say he has a few years left, but he has only one season left on his contract. I am not 100% most would agree Garza is solid. I think most would agree he is at least a "lesser of evils" but I am not sure I would go so far as to say solid.

 

Okay, get away from those we saw last season. This is where you really begin to reach IMHO. Like w/ the young DL rookies of 2009, you try and compare some young OL who have never made it onto the field w/ the young WRs who really stepped up this year. Further, while we have a couple 3rd rounders and a 5th invested in those young players at WR, you are trying to compare them w/ a bunch of 6th and 7th round picks who just barely made the roster. Beekman, for the record, is an exception to this. But you really want to use the likes of Reed, Marten, Louis to compare w/ Bennett, Knox and DA?

 

And for a 3rd time, I really have to question whether you even believe this. So you are telling me you are happy w/ our OL. Maybe drop Pace and add someone, who cares who, because we have an abundance of young talent who can step in and step up. You are comfortable with Cutler being protected by Reed, Louis, etc.

 

For ther record, before we end the need discusion, I would add CB. Tillman has been going downhill steadily for a few years now. Bowman stepped in and stepped up, which is great, but Graham seemed to take a step back this past year under Hoke and there are more than a few questioning whether Moore (last years rookie) has any potential in the NFL at 5'7. We are thin at the starter level, and transparient in depth.

 

So going back to the original question. Where is the solution to either of these positions? (Of those in the opinion that they need fixing). FA? Again, I would cite the counter argument made that bringing in another veteran could only delay or hamper some of the unproven youth already on the team. Is it in the draft? How much an impact do any of you believe can be found at 3rd round that could or should displace the current players at any of the positions mentioned above? Then there is the trade option. But that is a totally different topic of discussion altogether.

 

Come on man. At WR, we have a group of players which (a) represent a fair amount of draft picks and ( have proven worthy of their snaps. If our young Wrs either (a) never saw the field this past year or ( failed as poorly as the likes of Harrison at DT, do you really believe I, or any others, would be arguing they need to stay on the field to develop. No. I am not saying they need to be further developed just because they are young and I assume all young players will develop into something special. I say it because in Bennett, DA and Knox, we have seen that potential already begin to produce on the field. Can you say the same about the younth at the other positions you talk about.

 

Further, I would argue that very young group of WRs played better last year than did the OL, DL or secondary. While our young WRs stepped up, most of the young players at those other units tripped and bit their tongue.

God this pains me but Great post NFO, I agree that at least the WR's have shown something on the field in game situations where as the other guys haven't even seen the field yet. Now of course I would like to see some of those young guys be given a chance to see the field, like Gilbert, like Iglesias, etc.

['TD']

How exactly did the young trio of WR's seperate themselves a lot more than the young back ups at other positions?

 

Bennet played all 16 games, but did little to nothing to seperate himself as anything more than a Bobby Wade.

 

I love to see Johnny Knox play, but at this point he isn't an everydown WR. He's a very fast WR, but if he goes over the middle, then he is going to get hurts. He's not built to take the abuse.

 

Iglesias is an unknown like much of the others players listed.

[madlithuanian]

I second that...

 

And state for the record that Smith is hindering this team. But, I'm sure you all knew I felt that way already...

 

God this pains me but Great post NFO, I agree that at least the WR's have shown something on the field in game situations where as the other guys haven't even seen the field yet. Now of course I would like to see some of those young guys be given a chance to see the field, like Gilbert, like Iglesias, etc.

 

[madlithuanian]

Can you give examples where the DL did similar?

 

How exactly did the young trio of WR's seperate themselves a lot more than the young back ups at other positions?

 

Bennet played all 16 games, but did little to nothing to seperate himself as anything more than a Bobby Wade.

 

I love to see Johnny Knox play, but at this point he isn't an everydown WR. He's a very fast WR, but if he goes over the middle, then he is going to get hurts. He's not built to take the abuse.

 

Iglesias is an unknown like much of the others players listed.

 

[Connorbear]

How exactly did the young trio of WR's seperate themselves a lot more than the young back ups at other positions?

 

Bennet played all 16 games, but did little to nothing to seperate himself as anything more than a Bobby Wade.

 

I love to see Johnny Knox play, but at this point he isn't an everydown WR. He's a very fast WR, but if he goes over the middle, then he is going to get hurts. He's not built to take the abuse.

 

Iglesias is an unknown like much of the others players listed.

I have to strongly disagree in the comparison of Bennett to Wade. Bennett is a much better player than Wade simply because he can hold onto the ball. Now is he a starter in the league? Probably not. But he is a nice 3rd or 4th receiver who has shown he can be a successful punt returner as well.

 

Peace

[Alaskan Grizzly]

NFO, maybe you missed the title of my original post. And just so we are clear here is the actual definition from Dictionary.com: (n) a person who advocates an opposing or unpopular cause for the sake of argument or to expose it to a thorough examination.

 

Although I originally posted because I wanted to go the route of "thorough examination" I am ok with the constant title of "sake of argument". Again, this is a place to debate, discuss and otherwise contemplate all that is Bears, or so I've been told.

 

I deleted the WR "discussion" for now. As this seems to be ongoing here and elsewhere....

 

You say the current DL isn't all the bad? Honestly, I have to wonder if you are just saying this in an attempt to make an argument, or whether you truly believe as such.

 

Alex Brown is not going to suddenly get better. Wale is gone, and Anderson (under Marinelli) showed little to nothing. Harris just can't be counted on. Okay, but we have a group of young players like Harrison, Melton and Gilbert. But how can you compare this trio w/ the WRs. What have any of these young DL shown? I would argue we have yet to see so much as a flash or tease of squat from any of them. W/ the exception of Iglesias, we have a trio of young WRs (not counting Hester) that really stepped up when given an opportunity this year. Can you say the same of those young DL? Harrison didn't even care enough to show up in shape, and never did jack through the year. Gilbert? Nada. Melton. Injured, but the point is still he has yet to show jack. How can you begin to compare the youth on the DL which has not shown us squat, to the younth on the WR unit, which went above I think everyones expectations.

 

You forgot about Israel Idonije, Anthony Adams and Matt Toeaina (sp). How do these guys figure in? They aren't all that horrible. Adams played the full season and did pretty good. I still think he would make a pretty decent NT, if the Bears ran that form of Defense. Idonije is raw and pretty decent himself. Proven a lot on special teams. Not so sure your assessment of Alex Brown is accurate. Brown is a consistent player who makes plays on a regular basis (although not every down). Harris has always been an under performer for some reason. Not because he is a bad player, because he chooses to be. If I recollect he does better when Urlacher plays. Hmm... What do you need a Jared Allen or Dwight Freeney? Those players are few and far between and by the way, will cost a ton to retain. Those currently on the Bears staff are really not that bad. And yes, I do believe that.

 

 

Both (Afalava and Stetlz) are SS's. Sure, they may have been played at FS at times, but neither have the coverage ability to be a FS. They are frankly the same safety as Harris, Green, Payne and a 1/2 dozen other safeties we have tried. It is because of the play of those like Steltz and Afalava that you don't hear any really talking about the need to seek a SS. FS is another story. Again, are you just trying to make an argument here, or do you truly believe one of these two can be a capable centerfielder.

 

Actually both are listed as just Safety on the roster. And, Steltz was drafted to be the starting FS out of LSU and Afalava played FS at Oregon. So, not sure what you mean that they aren't capable. If you are referring to Chris Harris; what was wrong with Harris? He actually played pretty well and has done so since going back to the Panthers. And Payne, actually, is listed as the starting SS so I'll agree that he isn't the solution to FS. But, if you believe it's because the team is needing depth (only 5 Safeties listed) then yes it would be a good idea to draft or go FA.

 

 

Kreutz is the leader, no question, but I think many would have varied opinions on the level of his play at this point. Also, you say he has a few years left, but he has only one season left on his contract. I am not 100% most would agree Garza is solid. I think most would agree he is at least a "lesser of evils" but I am not sure I would go so far as to say solid.

 

Okay, get away from those we saw last season. This is where you really begin to reach IMHO. Like w/ the young DL rookies of 2009, you try and compare some young OL who have never made it onto the field w/ the young WRs who really stepped up this year. Further, while we have a couple 3rd rounders and a 5th invested in those young players at WR, you are trying to compare them w/ a bunch of 6th and 7th round picks who just barely made the roster. Beekman, for the record, is an exception to this. But you really want to use the likes of Reed, Marten, Louis to compare w/ Bennett, Knox and DA?

 

And for a 3rd time, I really have to question whether you even believe this. So you are telling me you are happy w/ our OL. Maybe drop Pace and add someone, who cares who, because we have an abundance of young talent who can step in and step up. You are comfortable with Cutler being protected by Reed, Louis, etc.

 

But you never answered my question in the first place. How do you or I know these guys aren't capable? What do you need a complete rebuild? If 4 of 5 are performing as needed then how many replacements do you need? I don't get the concept of "replacing or rebuilding the Oline". How many times did you hear analysts say last season's OL didn't have time to gel? You have to admit, there was a lot of tinkering throughout the year, especially when Pace and Omiyale disappointed early on. However, did they not look better at the end of the year? I believe that Martz has even said that given the right coaching (Tice) that the line has a lot of potential...as is. Or something of that nature.

 

I wouldn't say I don't care who is put in the line. But what do the Bears have in those other players? Or are you suggesting you can find someone better in the 3rd? Or FA? Didn't they try that a few times last year?? And yes I believe, like you believe about the WR's, that the Bears should nurture/test/try (whatever you want to call it) what is there before going and redoing the whole group.

 

 

Come on man. At WR, we have a group of players which (a) represent a fair amount of draft picks and ( have proven worthy of their snaps. If our young Wrs either (a) never saw the field this past year or ( failed as poorly as the likes of Harrison at DT, do you really believe I, or any others, would be arguing they need to stay on the field to develop. No. I am not saying they need to be further developed just because they are young and I assume all young players will develop into something special. I say it because in Bennett, DA and Knox, we have seen that potential already begin to produce on the field. Can you say the same about the younth at the other positions you talk about.

 

Further, I would argue that very young group of WRs played better last year than did the OL, DL or secondary. While our young WRs stepped up, most of the young players at those other units tripped and bit their tongue.

 

You say you SAW these WR's perform pretty well and stepped up as hoped. I still say it was because of Cutler and not much else but, again you can't tell me that the unknowns of the other positions mentioned had much a chance to prove themselves. Especially on Offense (remember the TUrner factor). And on Defense I still stand by the original notion that those of the "2nd team" still managed to play pretty well at the end of the season.

 

Those that do, do and those that don't...write about it.

[AZ54]

Not enough time to answer the questions posed in detail but I'll summarize it all by saying it's a matter of which way the arrows are pointing.

 

WR: arrow up on Knox, Hester, Bennett, DA.

arrow up but not confident: Iglesias

arrow down and out: Davis

 

DL: arrow up on Gilbert but didn't see enough to have confidence.

arrow flat: Brown, Harrison, Adams

arrow down: Harris (this is the one that hurts especially since that's where the money is)

 

OL: arrow up on Williams, and to a lesser extent Beekman

arrow flat: Omiyale (suspect should be back at OT), Shaffer,

arrow down: Kreutz (hope he can return to form but got ???), Garza (hear good things about him but on gameday he never stands out one way or the other)

 

FS: don't have one on the roster

 

SS: arrow up Afalava, Steltz (but less athletic ability)

arrow flat Payne

 

 

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

DL: arrow up on Gilbert but didn't see enough to have confidence.

arrow flat: Brown, Harrison, Adams

arrow down: Harris (this is the one that hurts especially since that's where the money is)

 

OL: arrow up on Williams, and to a lesser extent Beekman

arrow flat: Omiyale (suspect should be back at OT), Shaffer,

arrow down: Kreutz (hope he can return to form but got ???), Garza (hear good things about him but on gameday he never stands out one way or the other)

 

FS: don't have one on the roster

 

SS: arrow up Afalava, Steltz (but less athletic ability)

arrow flat Payne

 

Again, about the WR staff. I am not at all sold completely on Hester as one let alone in "up" category. Otherwise, fair assessment.

 

Kreutz still has it and if he doesn't then Beekman is noted as both G/C if really need be. Why don't you mention any of the others on the roster? Probably because they are "unknown". Can't really appraise what you haven't seen, I understand.

 

FS: Not true. Please refer to earlier reference. And as far as SS: same there. As I mentioned earlier, I will go with the team needing more depth only because there is a small number of safeties listed.

 

I think someone mentioned that FS Kerry Rhodes (currently of the NYJ) could be had for the right deal. The more I look at it, the more I like it.

 

 

 

 

[nfoligno]

What exactly have the others done. For the record, the third in the trio is DA, not Iglesias, who is as unproven as anyone else.

 

Gilbert had all year. Hell, we really needed him at times. What did he do? Harrison has had his opportunity two years in a row now and has done nothing. Anderson? Melton. What young DL are you thinking of who has been impressive. You question what Bennett and our young WRs did this year, but then what does that say about those other young positions players who did so little that our WRs look all-pro.

 

Oh, you must be talking about the young OL like Reed or Louis. No?

 

Back to the WRs, I can't believe you would honestly try to take away what the WRs did. bennett was a 2nd year player who really never saw the field last year. So this was basilly his rookie season, and he played well. Knox was supposed to be more raw, but hit the field much sooner and made big plays. DA got a late start, and impressed.

 

In other words, these young players stepped up. Question how high they stepped, or if they will step further, but there can't be a question they stepped up. What other young OL or DL stepped up?

 

How exactly did the young trio of WR's seperate themselves a lot more than the young back ups at other positions?

 

Bennet played all 16 games, but did little to nothing to seperate himself as anything more than a Bobby Wade.

 

I love to see Johnny Knox play, but at this point he isn't an everydown WR. He's a very fast WR, but if he goes over the middle, then he is going to get hurts. He's not built to take the abuse.

 

Iglesias is an unknown like much of the others players listed.

 

['TD']

Can you give examples where the DL did similar?

Knox to Andersen a couple years ago. Players that showed promise in one area, Andersen failed after get pushed to starting and Knox would too if he gets pushed out of his niche.

 

Bennett to Harrisson. Both are ok starters if you have nothing else, but both have a low ceiling.

 

Iglesias and Gilbert we know nothing about.

 

I have to strongly disagree in the comparison of Bennett to Wade. Bennett is a much better player than Wade simply because he can hold onto the ball. Now is he a starter in the league? Probably not. But he is a nice 3rd or 4th receiver who has shown he can be a successful punt returner as well.

 

Peace

 

Wade couldn't hold onto balls onkick returns only. It wasn't a receiving problem. He spent a few years in the league and as far as I know he isn't in it or a starter, which is where I see Bennett. Both are nice 4th WR's. I wouldn't say 3rd cuz I see 3rd as a Hester/knox type. But they are both nice back ups for the starter of their style, so arguably third. Bennett can return punts/kicks or whatever, but that isn't what we are talking about, plus his value as a returner on this team is deminished by the fact Hester will be doing it more, knox made the probowl as a returner, and Mannings return ability.

[ParkerBear7]

How exactly did the young trio of WR's seperate themselves a lot more than the young back ups at other positions?

 

Bennet played all 16 games, but did little to nothing to seperate himself as anything more than a Bobby Wade.

 

I love to see Johnny Knox play, but at this point he isn't an everydown WR. He's a very fast WR, but if he goes over the middle, then he is going to get hurts. He's not built to take the abuse.

 

Iglesias is an unknown like much of the others players listed.

 

You have got to be kiddin with the wade comparison? When did Bennet fumble 3 punt / kick returns attempts in a game....waite he didn't that would have been one of wade's last games as a bear? Bennet has shown the ability to get open, excellent concetration, strong hands to make tough catches in traffic. As far as Knox had a great rookie season and happens to have similar qualities and build as DeSean Jackson who also by the way in case you have not noticed was Johnny's pro bowl teammate this year.

[nfoligno]

NFO, maybe you missed the title of my original post. And just so we are clear here is the actual definition from Dictionary.com: (n) a person who advocates an opposing or unpopular cause for the sake of argument or to expose it to a thorough examination.

 

Although I originally posted because I wanted to go the route of "thorough examination" I am ok with the constant title of "sake of argument". Again, this is a place to debate, discuss and otherwise contemplate all that is Bears, or so I've been told.

 

Okay, I get it is a place to debate, and I understand Devils advocate. Love to play it myself. So you do not believe any of this, and just want to throw it out there for the fun or argument. Cool. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It is the offseason, and the debate is fun as hell.

 

I deleted the WR "discussion" for now. As this seems to be ongoing here and elsewhere....

 

Probably in about a half dozen threads:)

 

You forgot about Israel Idonije, Anthony Adams and Matt Toeaina (sp). How do these guys figure in? They aren't all that horrible.

 

Horrible. No, not at all. They are role players, and that is about it. When talking about the unit the (per our coach) the entire scheme relies upon, role players can not place to great of a factor.

 

Adams played the full season and did pretty good. I still think he would make a pretty decent NT, if the Bears ran that form of Defense.

 

Hey, I am among his biggest fans, but the staff is not, so until there is a change, I can't see much change. The only time Adams gets much of a chance is when the staff is forced to play him. He usually plays well enough when that happens, but he is simply not the type of DT our staff wants.

 

Idonije is raw and pretty decent himself. Proven a lot on special teams.

 

Raw? He has been on the team and playing for some time now. I would hardly consider him raw. He is a nice depth guy and a decent rotation guy, but not a guy you can count on to have a solid, much less better, DL.

 

Not so sure your assessment of Alex Brown is accurate. Brown is a consistent player who makes plays on a regular basis (although not every down).

 

What I said was he isn't going to get better. He is solid, but you are simply not likely to get more than about 6 sacks, give or take a sack. Look at his career. Even when our DL was at its best, w/ Harris, Wale and even Anderson playing at the top of their level, he still didn't manage a high number of sacks. He is a solid all around DE, but simply not a guy we are going to get that consistent pass rush from.

 

Harris has always been an under performer for some reason. Not because he is a bad player, because he chooses to be. If I recollect he does better when Urlacher plays. Hmm...

 

Honestly, I would have to go back and check the game logs, because I have never noticed that connection. Harris seems like a player that can play well, when he wants, but even then for only so long before he fades. Either way, after looking at his last few years, I question how much we should expect.

 

What do you need a Jared Allen or Dwight Freeney? Those players are few and far between and by the way, will cost a ton to retain. Those currently on the Bears staff are really not that bad. And yes, I do believe that.

 

Allen and Freeney are rare players. Agreed. Problem is, when you look at the scheme our staff wants to run, that is the sort you need. The staff talk all the time about our scheme and always discuss how everything keys off pressure by the front four. You talk about a bunch of player who may be nice enough, but the simple of it is we just don't have those pass rushers needed to make this defense go. If we ran a different scheme, this group may be able to get by, but we don't. Lovie has been clear we will continue to run the cover two scheme, and for that to work, we need pass rushers on the DL. Who is going to provide that pressure?

 

Actually both are listed as just Safety on the roster. And, Steltz was drafted to be the starting FS out of LSU and Afalava played FS at Oregon. So, not sure what you mean that they aren't capable. If you are referring to Chris Harris; what was wrong with Harris? He actually played pretty well and has done so since going back to the Panthers. And Payne, actually, is listed as the starting SS so I'll agree that he isn't the solution to FS. But, if you believe it's because the team is needing depth (only 5 Safeties listed) then yes it would be a good idea to draft or go FA.

 

My point is, when you look at the safeties on our roster, they are all SS'. Regardless where we might play them, none are really good in coverage. In fact, most all are in fact weak. I am actually more in favor of a FA veteran FS (though I don't know who is available) as I think we need some veteran experience back there.

 

But you never answered my question in the first place. How do you or I know these guys aren't capable? What do you need a complete rebuild? If 4 of 5 are performing as needed then how many replacements do you need? I don't get the concept of "replacing or rebuilding the Oline". How many times did you hear analysts say last season's OL didn't have time to gel? You have to admit, there was a lot of tinkering throughout the year, especially when Pace and Omiyale disappointed early on. However, did they not look better at the end of the year? I believe that Martz has even said that given the right coaching (Tice) that the line has a lot of potential...as is. Or something of that nature.

 

I would say that Williams moving to LT, and playing pretty well, did in fact make a big difference. Still, I think we are (minimum) in need of adding one more very solid or better OL. We can add a RT and simply insert him, or add an OG and move Omiyale to RT. I agree time to gell is key, but at the same time, I do not believe we have the 5 starters we need. Further, Kreutz is in his final year, and chemistry can not be the only reason his play has seemed to go downhill for several years now.

 

I wouldn't say I don't care who is put in the line. But what do the Bears have in those other players? Or are you suggesting you can find someone better in the 3rd? Or FA? Didn't they try that a few times last year?? And yes I believe, like you believe about the WR's, that the Bears should nurture/test/try (whatever you want to call it) what is there before going and redoing the whole group.

 

Not saying we redo the entire group this year. In fact, I have said we need to work on the OL over the next couple years. You want to develop our young players. Great. Always like that. But I question the notion of expecting 6th and 7th rounders to develop. If they do, great, but you can't rely on that. Fast forward to 2 or 3 years from now. Other than Williams, who do you honestly see in our starting lineup? As shocking as it may be, Omiyale may be among the top chances. Beekman could take over at center. But I think we will need a new right side, both OG and RT. We have not put enough into the OL for a long time now, and have paid the price. We need to really work on that unit. That shoudl start this year, but again, I am not saying we try to insert 5 new starters right away. But we do need to begin the work. We just traded for a franchise QB, and we need to do a better job of protecting him.

 

You say you SAW these WR's perform pretty well and stepped up as hoped. I still say it was because of Cutler and not much else but, again you can't tell me that the unknowns of the other positions mentioned had much a chance to prove themselves. Especially on Offense (remember the TUrner factor). And on Defense I still stand by the original notion that those of the "2nd team" still managed to play pretty well at the end of the season.

 

Are you saying Harrison didn't have a chance? Or Gilbert? Or the safeties, or Moore? The young defensive players had plenty of opportunity, but simply didn't do anything w/ such opportunity. On offense, I agree, and have said plenty of times, Cutler was a big part of our WRs stepped up play, but that doesn't take away from what they did. Knox was a 5th round pick who was believed to be a player needing time to develop. Due to DA's injury, he was given a chance and immiedatly produced. Bennett got the starting nod, and while he didn't play great, he did play well. Booker, for example, was handed a starting job, and failed, so just because a player is given a starting role doesn't mean he steps up. Its on him to do so, and I would argue more than other units, our WRs did.

[nfoligno]

Knox to Andersen a couple years ago. Players that showed promise in one area, Andersen failed after get pushed to starting and Knox would too if he gets pushed out of his niche.

 

Possible, sure, but why would you assume this?

 

Bennett to Harrisson. Both are ok starters if you have nothing else, but both have a low ceiling.

 

I won't argue that Bennett was no more than an okay starter, but would very much question that Harrison was an okay starter. He was trash.

 

Wade couldn't hold onto balls onkick returns only. It wasn't a receiving problem. He spent a few years in the league and as far as I know he isn't in it or a starter, which is where I see Bennett. Both are nice 4th WR's. I wouldn't say 3rd cuz I see 3rd as a Hester/knox type. But they are both nice back ups for the starter of their style, so arguably third. Bennett can return punts/kicks or whatever, but that isn't what we are talking about, plus his value as a returner on this team is deminished by the fact Hester will be doing it more, knox made the probowl as a returner, and Mannings return ability.

 

Just for the record, I believe KC picked up Wade this year.

 

I agree Bennett likely will not be a starter next year. At the same time, I would argue he did play pretty well as a starter, and is thus that much better of a depth guy to have. Compare that to past years when our depth was a joke. Further, if Bennett is not a starter, it would be because someone else stepped up.

 

 

[Mongo3451]

How exactly did the young trio of WR's seperate themselves a lot more than the young back ups at other positions?

 

Bennet played all 16 games, but did little to nothing to seperate himself as anything more than a Bobby Wade.

 

I love to see Johnny Knox play, but at this point he isn't an everydown WR. He's a very fast WR, but if he goes over the middle, then he is going to get hurts. He's not built to take the abuse.

 

Iglesias is an unknown like much of the others players listed.

I usually agree with you, but I'm going an opposite direction here.

 

Totally disagree with the Bennett and Wade parallel. Bennett, without getting a reception his rookie year, is only 10 behind Wades 1st 3 years. He also had more receptions and yards than Wade has had in any season of his career. Now the fumbles: Wade 13, Bennett 2. TD's Wade 0, Bennett 2. Now, if you want to compare Bennett with Bobby Engram, I'm all for it. I have to say I was more pleased with our recievers than I was Cutler this year. I don't know if was the reciever or him, but the timing was rarely there. I'm wondering if Cutler is relying on his gun more than timing and instinct. We'll know more this season as Cutler will have to throw timing patterns to survive Martz's system.

['TD']

I usually agree with you, but I'm going an opposite direction here.

 

Totally disagree with the Bennett and Wade parallel. Bennett, without getting a reception his rookie year, is only 10 behind Wades 1st 3 years. He also had more receptions and yards than Wade has had in any season of his career. Now the fumbles: Wade 13, Bennett 2. TD's Wade 0, Bennett 2. Now, if you want to compare Bennett with Bobby Engram, I'm all for it. I have to say I was more pleased with our recievers than I was Cutler this year. I don't know if was the reciever or him, but the timing was rarely there. I'm wondering if Cutler is relying on his gun more than timing and instinct. We'll know more this season as Cutler will have to throw timing patterns to survive Martz's system.

 

I'm just arguing to argue, sort of.

 

I don't hate any of the WR's on the team. Honestly, outside of this board I'd argue their potential.

 

The biggest need on this team is OL. I think it is by far the biggest need. This offseason, however, thier won't be many upgrades available, especially long term ones. I do whole heartedly disagree the Bears are set at WR and don't need an addition. I feel they need some tallness added to the WR corp. I would love to see a tall vet WR added, but nothing spectacular is going to be avaialbe in FA, and I don't want to see another late round draft pick spent on one.

 

2 WR's that are an exception to what I want to see added have became "available" or in Boldin's case speculated as available. The addition of Martz and his complicated system seems to be the perfect place for Holt to ressurrect his career, if in fact he still can. He isn't tall, but he brings a familiarity with the system that no other active player can and could make the tranistion from Turner to Martz much smoother.

 

Boldin, while not tall, brings a very physical game with him, which not only this teams WR's lack, but most teams. He's a very special player and think he will improve any team greatly. A team with players still developing like the Bears, he could prove invaluable as a dependable go to guy as the other players develop.

 

I'm not trying to degrade Bennett by comparing him to Wade, btw. He has a stigma in Chicago for muffing punts. He was able to have an extended career in the NFL, even finding time as a starter at times on other teams. That's why I compare Bennett. Partially, to take advantage of that stigma, and because I think he will be that solid back up, and starter if you don't have that kind of player like Wade has done.

[madlithuanian]

Thanks, nfo. You pretty much responded how I would have.

 

Knox to Andersen a couple years ago. Players that showed promise in one area, Andersen failed after get pushed to starting and Knox would too if he gets pushed out of his niche.

 

Possible, sure, but why would you assume this?

 

Bennett to Harrisson. Both are ok starters if you have nothing else, but both have a low ceiling.

 

I won't argue that Bennett was no more than an okay starter, but would very much question that Harrison was an okay starter. He was trash.

 

Wade couldn't hold onto balls onkick returns only. It wasn't a receiving problem. He spent a few years in the league and as far as I know he isn't in it or a starter, which is where I see Bennett. Both are nice 4th WR's. I wouldn't say 3rd cuz I see 3rd as a Hester/knox type. But they are both nice back ups for the starter of their style, so arguably third. Bennett can return punts/kicks or whatever, but that isn't what we are talking about, plus his value as a returner on this team is deminished by the fact Hester will be doing it more, knox made the probowl as a returner, and Mannings return ability.

 

Just for the record, I believe KC picked up Wade this year.

 

I agree Bennett likely will not be a starter next year. At the same time, I would argue he did play pretty well as a starter, and is thus that much better of a depth guy to have. Compare that to past years when our depth was a joke. Further, if Bennett is not a starter, it would be because someone else stepped up.

 

[Alaskan Grizzly]

Okay, I get it is a place to debate, and I understand Devils advocate. Love to play it myself. So you do not believe any of this, and just want to throw it out there for the fun or argument. Cool. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It is the offseason, and the debate is fun as hell.

 

Your writing suggests tha I am here to just start trouble, when in fact, as I stated before all I'm doing is trying to stimulate conversation. I DO BELIEVE a lot of what I am writing and BELIEVE that many "unknown" players can become "known" as you have indicated that you believe the WR's on the staff have done.

 

(REGARDING IDONIJE): Raw? He has been on the team and playing for some time now. I would hardly consider him raw. He is a nice depth guy and a decent rotation guy, but not a guy you can count on to have a solid, much less better, DL.

 

(REGARDING ALEX BROWN): What I said was he isn't going to get better. He is solid, but you are simply not likely to get more than about 6 sacks, give or take a sack. Look at his career. Even when our DL was at its best, w/ Harris, Wale and even Anderson playing at the top of their level, he still didn't manage a high number of sacks. He is a solid all around DE, but simply not a guy we are going to get that consistent pass rush from.

 

With Idonije, who signed on with the Bears in '04 I would still consider him a raw talent in that he hasn't been developed to his potential. Watching him play, especially these last few years, he appears to be steadily improving.

 

On Brown I am not sure what your exact problem with him is. Getting "about 6 sacks" is pretty good, better than none. And then as if to prove your point of how bad he is you state "he is a solid all around DE". Again, what else do you need?

 

Allen and Freeney are rare players. Agreed. Problem is, when you look at the scheme our staff wants to run, that is the sort you need. The staff talk all the time about our scheme and always discuss how everything keys off pressure by the front four. You talk about a bunch of player who may be nice enough, but the simple of it is we just don't have those pass rushers needed to make this defense go. If we ran a different scheme, this group may be able to get by, but we don't. Lovie has been clear we will continue to run the cover two scheme, and for that to work, we need pass rushers on the DL. Who is going to provide that pressure?

 

Good question, if the current players (all included) that are on the roster are not the answer, what is the solution?

 

My point is, when you look at the safeties on our roster, they are all SS'. Regardless where we might play them, none are really good in coverage. In fact, most all are in fact weak. I am actually more in favor of a FA veteran FS (though I don't know who is available) as I think we need some veteran experience back there.

 

For the most part we agree on this aspect except for "they are all SS". The only listing the team roster has them is as S not FS or SS. And, as you mentioned earlier, the Tampa 2 is designed for more a two FS system (coverage and much rotation or movement) which again, Steltz handled ok toward the end of the season and Afalava earlier in the season. the part we do agree on is having a player like Rhodes join the team.

 

Not saying we redo the entire group this year. In fact, I have said we need to work on the OL over the next couple years. You want to develop our young players. Great. Always like that. But I question the notion of expecting 6th and 7th rounders to develop. If they do, great, but you can't rely on that. Fast forward to 2 or 3 years from now. Other than Williams, who do you honestly see in our starting lineup? As shocking as it may be, Omiyale may be among the top chances. Beekman could take over at center. But I think we will need a new right side, both OG and RT. We have not put enough into the OL for a long time now, and have paid the price. We need to really work on that unit. That shoudl start this year, but again, I am not saying we try to insert 5 new starters right away. But we do need to begin the work. We just traded for a franchise QB, and we need to do a better job of protecting him.

 

Again, we agree on something. On the Bears lineup in 2-3 years from now I could envision (from L-R); Williams, Beekman, Kreutz*, Garza, Shaffer-maybe.

 

*With Kreutz I differ from your perspective that he is at the end or his career. Nearer than when he started, yes but not AT the end. Just for "oops and giggles" some other Centers out there: Kevin Mawae (Tenn) drafted in 1994 age 39, Jeff Saturday (Ind) drafted in 1998 age 34, Kreutz drafted 1998 age 32 and Shaun Ohara (NYG) drafted in 2000 age 32. Of the other three I listed I would be interested in your perspective on how faded they might be considering you have a player like 2,000 yard rusher Chris Johnson in Tennessee, Peyton Manning (who can stand around all day) in Indianapolis and the likes of Brandon Jacobs, Ahmad Bradshaw and Eli Manning in NY. I think Kreutz easily has another 3-4 years left in him.

 

Are you saying Harrison didn't have a chance? Or Gilbert? Or the safeties, or Moore? The young defensive players had plenty of opportunity, but simply didn't do anything w/ such opportunity.

 

When was that again? Preseason?

 

On offense, I agree, and have said plenty of times, Cutler was a big part of our WRs stepped up play, but that doesn't take away from what they did. Knox was a 5th round pick who was believed to be a player needing time to develop. Due to DA's injury, he was given a chance and immiedatly produced. Bennett got the starting nod, and while he didn't play great, he did play well. Booker, for example, was handed a starting job, and failed, so just because a player is given a starting role doesn't mean he steps up. Its on him to do so, and I would argue more than other units, our WRs did.

 

You almost contradict your own thought in that you earlier state that you have concerns with the Bears developing (or allowing to develop) 6th and 7th round picks along the OL but then are OK with a 5th rounder doing so. Again, and most of the point of this whole "debate" is why can't the same opportunity be afforded for these other young players?

 

[nfoligno]

Your writing suggests tha I am here to just start trouble, when in fact, as I stated before all I'm doing is trying to stimulate conversation. I DO BELIEVE a lot of what I am writing and BELIEVE that many "unknown" players can become "known" as you have indicated that you believe the WR's on the staff have done.

 

Just for the record, I didn't mean it to sound that way. I know you mean what you say w/ regard to the WRs. Maybe your other arguments are how you feel, and maybe they are just arguments. My point though was not to put the arguments in a negative light, but simply to say I understand "devils advocate" arguments, and in fact enjoy them.

 

With Idonije, who signed on with the Bears in '04 I would still consider him a raw talent in that he hasn't been developed to his potential. Watching him play, especially these last few years, he appears to be steadily improving.

 

Players never stop developing, or at least, when they do, they usually find themselves out of the league before long. Even older players continue to develop and adapt. But when it comes to idonije, I am just not sure we can put him in an undeveloped category like so many other young players. He has been on the field, and even been a starter, for some years now. I actually like Idonije. He is good depth, but I just do not view him as a player you want to expect too much from.

 

On Brown I am not sure what your exact problem with him is. Getting "about 6 sacks" is pretty good, better than none. And then as if to prove your point of how bad he is you state "he is a solid all around DE". Again, what else do you need?

 

Brown is a solid all around player, he is simply not a special player. He is a RDE, which is the position you usually have your best pass rusher. Upper tier 4-3 defenses often have a double digit RDE, especially ones that rely so much on front four pass rush like ours. Brown has never been a double digit sack guy, or frankly, even come close. Even when we had others on the DL creating a lot of pressure, Brown was simply not able to take advantage. This wouldn't be the end of the world, but the problem is, we lack any true pass rushers on the DL, and thus the inability of having a RDE that can get to the QB is an issue.

 

Good question, if the current players (all included) that are on the roster are not the answer, what is the solution?

 

Honestly, I am not sure. Maybe it is Kampman. Maybe Peppers. I honestly do not know. But my key point is, we lack players along the DL that can get to the QB, and that is a key issue on a defense that starts w/ front four pressure. When your best pass rusher gets 6 sacks, in a scheme like ours, you are not likely to have a lot of success. So the real point here is that DL is a big need area, and I do not see a ton of reason to have high expectations that we have current solutions on the roster. Thus, we need to address this position in the offseason.

 

For the most part we agree on this aspect except for "they are all SS". The only listing the team roster has them is as S not FS or SS. And, as you mentioned earlier, the Tampa 2 is designed for more a two FS system (coverage and much rotation or movement) which again, Steltz handled ok toward the end of the season and Afalava earlier in the season. the part we do agree on is having a player like Rhodes join the team.

 

For me, the issue is the ability, or inability, to play coverage. I am not talking about coverage inside 10 yards, but downfield. I have not seen this ability in any currently on our roster, and thus, I view this as a big need area.

 

Again, we agree on something. On the Bears lineup in 2-3 years from now I could envision (from L-R); Williams, Beekman, Kreutz*, Garza, Shaffer-maybe.

 

Maybe I missed something, but where do we agree. In 2-3 years, I do not envision Kreutz, Garza or Shaffer being part of the starting lineup. We may agree we can not make all our fixes in one offseason, but we do not agree on who our key players will be long term.

 

*With Kreutz I differ from your perspective that he is at the end or his career. Nearer than when he started, yes but not AT the end. Just for "oops and giggles" some other Centers out there: Kevin Mawae (Tenn) drafted in 1994 age 39, Jeff Saturday (Ind) drafted in 1998 age 34, Kreutz drafted 1998 age 32 and Shaun Ohara (NYG) drafted in 2000 age 32. Of the other three I listed I would be interested in your perspective on how faded they might be considering you have a player like 2,000 yard rusher Chris Johnson in Tennessee, Peyton Manning (who can stand around all day) in Indianapolis and the likes of Brandon Jacobs, Ahmad Bradshaw and Eli Manning in NY. I think Kreutz easily has another 3-4 years left in him.

 

One, Kreutz will be an UFA after this season, and I have a hard time seeing us keeping him. I am not sure he will be worth, to us, what he may be worth on the market. Add to that we potentially have his replacment on the roster (Beekman) and I question if we would be best served by even trying to keep him.

 

Two, It isn't jus this age. Other OL, and even centers, play well into their 30s. It is more than for the last several years, his play has seemed to go downhill. I do not believe he is anymore that solid of a starting center, and further, do not believe he will improve. I believe his decline began a couple years ago, and will only continue to go downhill.

 

When was that again? Preseason?

 

This was in reply to young DL. Melton didn't get much of a chance due to injury, but others? Harrison was set to be our starting DT, but showed up out of shape, and really, never showed much of anything. His play was simply bad. I listened to Warren Sapp review his play, and he blasted him. Harrison was given plenty of opportunity this year, and even last, and simply failed to show much of even a glimmer of reason for hope. I would also say Gilbert was given opportunity, but failed to impress. He was active and on the field late in the year, but struggled in every area. Yea, you can say he didn't get much of an opportunity, but did he play wel enough in practice to even earn it? It isn't like w/ Iglesias, where he had solid players in front of him. We were thin at DT, and even had to move DEs inside to compensate, and yet Gilbert showed nothing. Anderson is another I mentioned. He did show some flashes, but never came close to the play he provided as a rookie. So other than Melton, I would argue our young DL had opportunities, but simply didn't take advantage.

 

You almost contradict your own thought in that you earlier state that you have concerns with the Bears developing (or allowing to develop) 6th and 7th round picks along the OL but then are OK with a 5th rounder doing so. Again, and most of the point of this whole "debate" is why can't the same opportunity be afforded for these other young players?

 

Here is the difference. That 5th round WR stepped up and gave reason to be put in a position to develop. If Knox had not played and played well this past year, you would not hear me saying we needed to avoid this WR or that WR in order to get some 5th round pick on the field. I don't want to push the development of a player just because they are young or were drafted. But when a player shows promise, then I think you need to continue to mold that promise. What did the young OL do to deserve such?

 

I have said this before, but will again. It isn't just that we have young WR on the roster, but that those young WRs showed something this past year. Go back a year. Due to playing veteran WRs, we had several young WRs who didn't really get on the field and thus have an opportunity to impress. There was really little reason to expect too much. Thus, a year ago I was very in favor of going after Boldin or other WRs. Even after drafting Iglesias and Knox, I would not have avoided a veteran WR just to give a chance to the young. But today is different, as those young WRs showed enough (to me at least) to give the belief there are more than capable of getting it down.

 

Use a similar comparison on the DL. Lets say Harrison stepped in and stepped up this past year. Lets say Gilbert got on the field and, even if the consistency wasn't their for the rookie, he showed flashes of potential greatness. Lets say Anderson, with a new opportunity under Marinelli, again showed an ability to get to the passer. If our young DL had shown more this past year, I would less view DL as a need, much less top tier need. Or shift to FS. If Steltz or Afalava had shown more of an ability to cover down field, I may not view FS as a top tier need. It isn't just that we have young on the roster that makes me prefer to give them time to develop over adding aging veterans. It is whether that youth has proven worthy of such. I believe our young WRs (Hester, Knox, DA and Bennett) have all shown enough to warrant getting the nod. At DL, OL, S and CB, I have not seen enough to warrant a belief that we have the answers currently on the roster, and definitenly not enough that I would count on them and avoid adding a player to shore up the position.

[Alaskan Grizzly]

I think it's getting close to the time to put this horse to rest. It looks as though the more we disagree, the more we actually agree. Oddly enough....and hence why I elimintated the first half of the reply. We are at an impasse with most of those points it would appear.

 

Maybe I missed something, but where do we agree. In 2-3 years, I do not envision Kreutz, Garza or Shaffer being part of the starting lineup. We may agree we can not make all our fixes in one offseason, but we do not agree on who our key players will be long term.

 

Our agreement was to the statment you made of "developing young players" and that you were good with that. We differ in that I feel it possible to do this with some of the folks on OL, DL and Safety where you think it possible only with WR.

 

 

 

I see and understand what it is you have written, and appreciate it all. Again, this was to start another perspective look at if we are collectively acceptable to the idea of developing talent at the WR position then why don't we afford that to the positions that most are concerned with? That being DL, OL and FS. It seems silly to overlook the possible talent in the pool and cast the line elsewhere and catching another unknown especially at 3rd round. But then again a fair number here don't think the coaching staff does all that good at judging players and properly placing them. However, that is another discussion entirely.

[nfoligno]

Our agreement was to the statment you made of "developing young players" and that you were good with that. We differ in that I feel it possible to do this with some of the folks on OL, DL and Safety where you think it possible only with WR.

 

For the purpose of clarification. It is not that I do not believe it possible any of our OL, DL or DBs can develop. That is not at all the case. It is more a matter of whether or not we count and rely on those players. At WR, I have seen our young players play in such a manner that I believe we can expect further development and solid production, and thus do not feel the need to address the situation. At the other positions, I hope players develop, but have not seen enough to make me believe we can rely on them. Thus, I see those positions as offseason needs.

 

So it isn't that I believe none of our other units can see development in youth, but more an issue of whether or not I believe we can rely on them.

 

I see and understand what it is you have written, and appreciate it all. Again, this was to start another perspective look at if we are collectively acceptable to the idea of developing talent at the WR position then why don't we afford that to the positions that most are concerned with? That being DL, OL and FS. It seems silly to overlook the possible talent in the pool and cast the line elsewhere and catching another unknown especially at 3rd round. But then again a fair number here don't think the coaching staff does all that good at judging players and properly placing them. However, that is another discussion entirely.

 

As you said, likely no real point in further argument. I think we understand each others position. For the record, I truly hope we are both right. I, in that our WRs can continue to develop and prove no further additions are necessary. You, in that other positions have young solutions on the roster, as that would always prove the best case scenario.