Antrell Rolle

[Guest TerraTor]

word is he will be released before the draft? I always loved miami players... Any thoughts

[defiantgiant]

word is he will be released before the draft? I always loved miami players... Any thoughts

 

Oh MAN. Come to Chicago, Antrel. He's a little bit of a gambler in coverage, but he makes a ton of plays. He'd be a huge upgrade at free safety, and he's still only 27. Rumor has it, though, that he wants to go back to Miami and play for the Dolphins. We'll see, maybe Angelo can pry him away.

[Guest TerraTor]

Oh MAN. Come to Chicago, Antrel. He's a little bit of a gambler in coverage, but he makes a ton of plays. He'd be a huge upgrade at free safety, and he's still only 27. Rumor has it, though, that he wants to go back to Miami and play for the Dolphins. We'll see, maybe Angelo can pry him away.

 

pretty easy to lure a player wherever u want... MONEY!! haha

[defiantgiant]

pretty easy to lure a player wherever u want... MONEY!! haha

True, and Matt Bowen's already speculating that the Bears could make a big-money offer to Rolle. The guy's clearly looking to get paid: the whole reason he's not expected back in Arizona is that he isn't willing to take a pay cut to stay. If Lovie and company want to fix the defense this year and keep their jobs, they need to get out the checkbook for players like Rolle and Kampman/Peppers.

 

EDIT: Also, if we got him in FA, we'd be able to use the 3rd-rounder on Myron Rolle. Rolle/Rolle would be a HUGE upgrade over Manning/Afalava.

[bowlingtwig]

True, and Matt Bowen's already speculating that the Bears could make a big-money offer to Rolle. The guy's clearly looking to get paid: the whole reason he's not expected back in Arizona is that he isn't willing to take a pay cut to stay. If Lovie and company want to fix the defense this year and keep their jobs, they need to get out the checkbook for players like Rolle and Kampman/Peppers.

 

EDIT: Also, if we got him in FA, we'd be able to use the 3rd-rounder on Myron Rolle. Rolle/Rolle would be a HUGE upgrade over Manning/Afalava.

I completely agree. I would love to see Antrelle Rolle. He would immediately shore up the secondary.

[AZ54]

Please say it ain't so. Ok I have to admit Rolle is better than any FS we have on the roster (we don't have one) but after years watching him miss tackles (easy tackles and I'm talking about a complete whiff) I have absolutely no desire to see him in a Bears uniform. I know he's gotten some INTs over the years and that's because as someone stated above he's a gambler. You know what happens when those gambles don't pay off? Whisenhunt does. There's a reason Arizona has had to outscore opponents to win games even when they are putting up 30pts in a game and Antrell Rolle is part of that reason.

 

If you want to know what it's like to watch Rolle play FS watch some highlight film of Danieal Manning except Rolle is much slower. I don't want to go too far because Rolle is better in coverage than Manning until his lack of speed let's WR blow by him. I just think he is far from deserving the apparent FS-saviour status awarded him here. The two players who make the Cardinals secondary go are Adrian Wilson and DRC. There is no coincidence that Rolle looked better as DRC got better and single covered the other teams best WR and left Rolle to shadow the other side of the field. We don't have that ability on the roster so Rolle will have to go back to playing centerfield and reading the play. He's slow to react there. To his credit, Rolle did mentor DRC on how to watch game film and learn tendencies so he has the professionalism I like in the locker room.

 

I think Rolle would be a good stopgap option for us but that depends on the money he's asking for. It appears his desires are much higher than the Cards are willing to pay and that's a concern for me because they have other holes on D they need to fill...pass rusher, LB (replace Dansby) before dealing with FS and this just opens up another issue. I would think they'd re-sign Rolle if it could be done for a decent cap hit. I think keeping Rolle and trading Boldin makes more sense from the overall team benefit for the Cards even though Boldin is the better player. Cutting Rolle outright nets them nothing but cap space.

[Guest TerraTor]

True, and Matt Bowen's already speculating that the Bears could make a big-money offer to Rolle. The guy's clearly looking to get paid: the whole reason he's not expected back in Arizona is that he isn't willing to take a pay cut to stay. If Lovie and company want to fix the defense this year and keep their jobs, they need to get out the checkbook for players like Rolle and Kampman/Peppers.

 

EDIT: Also, if we got him in FA, we'd be able to use the 3rd-rounder on Myron Rolle. Rolle/Rolle would be a HUGE upgrade over Manning/Afalava.

 

Manning is hopefully gone anyways. But yes, it would be a great combination. Plus we could get custom jerseys with 2 numbers on them. Thatd be sweet

 

I think adding Rolle and Kampman is the only way this team wont be embarassed again next year. Unless the brass is actually planning death for Zombie and his crew of 1999 coaches

[nfoligno]

Az,

 

From what I read, he has a $4m roster bonus coming up, so cutting him would have more financial impact than just on the cap, which is a non-factor this year.

 

Honestly, I really do not know a ton about Rolle. There is no question as to our need, but at the same time, I don't want to give top tier money (which he seems to be seeking) for a guy if he isn't all that.

 

Please say it ain't so. Ok I have to admit Rolle is better than any FS we have on the roster (we don't have one) but after years watching him miss tackles (easy tackles and I'm talking about a complete whiff) I have absolutely no desire to see him in a Bears uniform. I know he's gotten some INTs over the years and that's because as someone stated above he's a gambler. You know what happens when those gambles don't pay off? Whisenhunt does. There's a reason Arizona has had to outscore opponents to win games even when they are putting up 30pts in a game and Antrell Rolle is part of that reason.

 

If you want to know what it's like to watch Rolle play FS watch some highlight film of Danieal Manning except Rolle is much slower. I don't want to go too far because Rolle is better in coverage than Manning until his lack of speed let's WR blow by him. I just think he is far from deserving the apparent FS-saviour status awarded him here. The two players who make the Cardinals secondary go are Adrian Wilson and DRC. There is no coincidence that Rolle looked better as DRC got better and single covered the other teams best WR and left Rolle to shadow the other side of the field. We don't have that ability on the roster so Rolle will have to go back to playing centerfield and reading the play. He's slow to react there. To his credit, Rolle did mentor DRC on how to watch game film and learn tendencies so he has the professionalism I like in the locker room.

 

I think Rolle would be a good stopgap option for us but that depends on the money he's asking for. It appears his desires are much higher than the Cards are willing to pay and that's a concern for me because they have other holes on D they need to fill...pass rusher, LB (replace Dansby) before dealing with FS and this just opens up another issue. I would think they'd re-sign Rolle if it could be done for a decent cap hit. I think keeping Rolle and trading Boldin makes more sense from the overall team benefit for the Cards even though Boldin is the better player. Cutting Rolle outright nets them nothing but cap space.

 

[defiantgiant]

I think Rolle would be a good stopgap option for us but that depends on the money he's asking for. It appears his desires are much higher than the Cards are willing to pay and that's a concern for me because they have other holes on D they need to fill...pass rusher, LB (replace Dansby) before dealing with FS and this just opens up another issue. I would think they'd re-sign Rolle if it could be done for a decent cap hit. I think keeping Rolle and trading Boldin makes more sense from the overall team benefit for the Cards even though Boldin is the better player. Cutting Rolle outright nets them nothing but cap space.

I don't think the issue's cap, it's cash. It's overwhelmingly likely that there's not going to be a cap for the 2010 season, so I'm pretty sure they could pay his $4 mil roster bonus and $8 mil salary with no cap concerns. If they wanted to resign him, they could frontload the deal so that most of it paid out this year, and duck the cap restrictions that way. The problem is that they already have the league's highest-paid safety, Adrian Wilson. Wilson is going to make a little over $7 million this season, and Rolle would make at least $12 mil if they kept him. No team wants to pay nearly $20 million in one year to their safeties, regardless of the cap. Whoever's doing contracts for the Cardinals has really shot himself in the foot: they keep giving players these unsustainable contracts full of escalators, watching them hit all the escalators, and then having to ask them to renegotiate later. It happened with Wilson and with Larry Fitzgerald, and it's the reason they can't keep Rolle.

 

As for the Danieal Manning comparisons, I can definitely see it, especially since the Cards sometimes use Rolle as a pseudo-nickel back and ask him to cover the slot receiver when they go to the nickel package. But Manning doesn't make half the plays on the ball that Rolle does, and the cost/benefit might work out such that Rolle's worth it, warts and all. Plus, the FA safety market is looking thin this year, and I wouldn't bet on a starting-caliber safety dropping to Chicago in the 3rd. Rolle could easily be the best available option.

[Guest TerraTor]

I don't think the issue's cap, it's cash. It's overwhelmingly likely that there's not going to be a cap for the 2010 season, so I'm pretty sure they could pay his $4 mil roster bonus and $8 mil salary with no cap concerns. If they wanted to resign him, they could frontload the deal so that most of it paid out this year, and duck the cap restrictions that way. The problem is that they already have the league's highest-paid safety, Adrian Wilson. Wilson is going to make a little over $7 million this season, and Rolle would make at least $12 mil if they kept him. No team wants to pay nearly $20 million in one year to their safeties, regardless of the cap. Whoever's doing contracts for the Cardinals has really shot himself in the foot: they keep giving players these unsustainable contracts full of escalators, watching them hit all the escalators, and then having to ask them to renegotiate later. It happened with Wilson and with Larry Fitzgerald, and it's the reason they can't keep Rolle.

 

As for the Danieal Manning comparisons, I can definitely see it, especially since the Cards sometimes use Rolle as a pseudo-nickel back and ask him to cover the slot receiver when they go to the nickel package. But Manning doesn't make half the plays on the ball that Rolle does, and the cost/benefit might work out such that Rolle's worth it, warts and all. Plus, the FA safety market is looking thin this year, and I wouldn't bet on a starting-caliber safety dropping to Chicago in the 3rd. Rolle could easily be the best available option.

 

I cant argue with any of that. I think the main thing is look at the rediculous names and amount of names we have had at both safeties the past few years... it well, rediculous. We can at least count on him playing game in and game out. not switching every week, of course thats the worthless outdated scheme Zombie wont abandone

[AZ54]

Az,

 

From what I read, he has a $4m roster bonus coming up, so cutting him would have more financial impact than just on the cap, which is a non-factor this year.

 

Honestly, I really do not know a ton about Rolle. There is no question as to our need, but at the same time, I don't want to give top tier money (which he seems to be seeking) for a guy if he isn't all that.

 

 

I understand that but it's part of my point. If he was that valuable to the Cards they'd be seeking to sign him to a longer term deal, if Rolle was asking for reasonable money. That's why I feel he's asking for the high end of salary and they'd rather not waste their time and take the ir $4mil cash and give it to someone else.

 

To answer a question from defiantgiant: ex-Bear front office man Rod Graves is behind the Cardinal contracts. They don't always get hit with huge escalator clauses though. However, he got screwed when he put the huge escalator in Fitzgerald's contract for making 3 Pro Bowl's. How often does a WR make 3 Pro Bowls in his first 4 years? OTOH they have had more contract issues with guys they've been good too and re-did their contract after just two years. Anquan Boldin (twice) and Darnell Dockett (twice) and both of them do nothing but bit** about their contracts.

[defiantgiant]

I understand that but it's part of my point. If he was that valuable to the Cards they'd be seeking to sign him to a longer term deal, if Rolle was asking for reasonable money. That's why I feel he's asking for the high end of salary and they'd rather not waste their time and take the ir $4mil cash and give it to someone else.

It's actually not $4 million cash, it's $12.11 million: $4 million in a roster bonus and then an $8.11 million base salary for 2010. Rolle might not be worth $12 million to the Cards, but there aren't many safeties in the league that are. He'd have to be an Ed Reed or a Troy Polamalu to be worth $12 mil in a single year. In fact, Polamalu's guaranteed money in 2010 is only $6.1 million, and Ed Reed's is only $6 million. Even if they desperately wanted to keep Rolle, the Cardinals would be on the hook for more than the two best safeties in the NFL combined. That just doesn't make sense for them. He won't take a pay cut to stay, and nobody's going to want to take on that contract, so they can't very well trade him. So what are they going to do? They'll have to cut him, and while he'll probably draw a lot of interest on the open market, he's not going to have any of those teams over a barrel for twelve million dollars. I'm sure he'll get a big contract based on the thin free agent class, but it won't be insane like what the Cards would have to pay to keep him. He just won't have the same leverage once he's a free agent.

 

I'm not saying Rolle's a superstar, but he's a quality starter, and it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for the Bears to overpay him somewhat, if that means they can finally have a good FS. A good comparison, in my mind, is Bernard Berrian. The Bears weren't wrong when they decided he wasn't worth the money he wanted, but they definitely took a step backward at receiver the next year. And the Vikings did overpay him, but they also got a good starter at what was then a position of tremendous need without having to spend a draft pick. If the Bears wanted to be on the other side of that transaction and pay a premium to get a quality starter at FS for the first time in the last 5 years, I'd be more than happy.

[bradjock]

It's actually not $4 million cash, it's $12.11 million: $4 million in a roster bonus and then an $8.11 million base salary for 2010. Rolle might not be worth $12 million to the Cards, but there aren't many safeties in the league that are. He'd have to be an Ed Reed or a Troy Polamalu to be worth $12 mil in a single year. In fact, Polamalu's guaranteed money in 2010 is only $6.1 million, and Ed Reed's is only $6 million. Even if they desperately wanted to keep Rolle, the Cardinals would be on the hook for more than the two best safeties in the NFL combined. That just doesn't make sense for them. He won't take a pay cut to stay, and nobody's going to want to take on that contract, so they can't very well trade him. So what are they going to do? They'll have to cut him, and while he'll probably draw a lot of interest on the open market, he's not going to have any of those teams over a barrel for twelve million dollars. I'm sure he'll get a big contract based on the thin free agent class, but it won't be insane like what the Cards would have to pay to keep him. He just won't have the same leverage once he's a free agent.

 

I'm not saying Rolle's a superstar, but he's a quality starter, and it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for the Bears to overpay him somewhat, if that means they can finally have a good FS. A good comparison, in my mind, is Bernard Berrian. The Bears weren't wrong when they decided he wasn't worth the money he wanted, but they definitely took a step backward at receiver the next year. And the Vikings did overpay him, but they also got a good starter at what was then a position of tremendous need without having to spend a draft pick. If the Bears wanted to be on the other side of that transaction and pay a premium to get a quality starter at FS for the first time in the last 5 years, I'd be more than happy.

 

Agreed Giant. The safety spot is a need for us and Rolle is likely to be the best who's realistically available. Atogwe would be better, but he's restricted. While he's not a pro-bowl caliber player, he'd immediately be the best safety on the roster. That being said:

1. We'd likely need to change how we use our safeties. Lovie swears they are interchangeable, but they are not. Our FS almost always drops way the hell back. I remember in 2007 we played Mike Brown at FS. He was basically invisible. We move him back to SS and he gets an interception right away (Detroit). He's starts making big plays . . . then he gets hurt. My point is if we get a guy like Rolle, we have to make our safeties interchangeable.

2. I like Craig Steltz. He's slow, he doesn't wow you, but he doesn't screw up, he doesn't miss tackles. He's solid. I like the Steltz/Rolle combo.

 

[Mongo3451]

I'm not saying Rolle's a superstar, but he's a quality starter, and it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for the Bears to overpay him somewhat, if that means they can finally have a good FS. A good comparison, in my mind, is Bernard Berrian. The Bears weren't wrong when they decided he wasn't worth the money he wanted, but they definitely took a step backward at receiver the next year. And the Vikings did overpay him, but they also got a good starter at what was then a position of tremendous need without having to spend a draft pick. If the Bears wanted to be on the other side of that transaction and pay a premium to get a quality starter at FS for the first time in the last 5 years, I'd be more than happy.

Totally agree. BTW - Nice Berrian analogy.

[Guest TerraTor]

Agreed Giant. The safety spot is a need for us and Rolle is likely to be the best who's realistically available. Atogwe would be better, but he's restricted. While he's not a pro-bowl caliber player, he'd immediately be the best safety on the roster. That being said:

1. We'd likely need to change how we use our safeties. Lovie swears they are interchangeable, but they are not. Our FS almost always drops way the hell back. I remember in 2007 we played Mike Brown at FS. He was basically invisible. We move him back to SS and he gets an interception right away (Detroit). He's starts making big plays . . . then he gets hurt. My point is if we get a guy like Rolle, we have to make our safeties interchangeable.

2. I like Craig Steltz. He's slow, he doesn't wow you, but he doesn't screw up, he doesn't miss tackles. He's solid. I like the Steltz/Rolle combo.

 

 

I dont mind steltz, hes tuff, comes from a winning program, and yes doesnt make stupid mistakes. Idrather have a more impact player like Myron Rolle could be, but all in all he isnt bad and has a size at SS.

[madlithuanian]

Seems like Stetz doesn't "wow" in practice, but does well in games. For some reason, Smith appears to love practice guys...

 

I dont mind steltz, hes tuff, comes from a winning program, and yes doesnt make stupid mistakes. Idrather have a more impact player like Myron Rolle could be, but all in all he isnt bad and has a size at SS.

 

[Guest TerraTor]

Seems like Stetz doesn't "wow" in practice, but does well in games. For some reason, Smith appears to love practice guys...

 

 

Ya they should look great in practice against this offense. Like Zack Bowman does and then looks like the 6th round pick he deserved to be in games. Its a shame, cuz his size and speed are perfect, but then again, measurables mean nothin with injury or lack of skill.

[defiantgiant]

Ya they should look great in practice against this offense. Like Zack Bowman does and then looks like the 6th round pick he deserved to be in games. Its a shame, cuz his size and speed are perfect, but then again, measurables mean nothin with injury or lack of skill.

I actually thought Bowman came on at the end of the year. He struggled a little bit toward the beginning of the season, but corner is a position with a learning curve. A lot of corners who end up being good starters don't start off strong. Besides, Bowman had 6 picks and 16 passes broken up...that's not bad for a guy who was effectively a rookie. He needs to stay healthy and that's a big question mark, but I'm definitely excited to see what he can do with a season as the starter under his belt.

[Guest TerraTor]

I actually thought Bowman came on at the end of the year. He struggled a little bit toward the beginning of the season, but corner is a position with a learning curve. A lot of corners who end up being good starters don't start off strong. Besides, Bowman had 6 picks and 16 passes broken up...that's not bad for a guy who was effectively a rookie. He needs to stay healthy and that's a big question mark, but I'm definitely excited to see what he can do with a season as the starter under his belt.

 

 

I hope so as well. hed be a steal for us if he can excel. I dont read much into INTs but i cant argue with the stat

[nfoligno]

Well, Vasher racked up the picks. Personally, in many ways, I think interceptions are as much an over-rated stat as sacks can often times be. Look at Wale. He had a "decent" number of sacks, but we all known most all his sacks came in a handful of games where he was going against very weak RTs, while he was absent (in terms of pass rush) most of the season.

 

I would have no issue w/ a CB that didn't intercept the ball if he covered well. As great as an interception is, I would much rather have a guy who can consistently cover and prevent a catch from being made.

 

Bowman is yet an unknown, but I would say he is similar to some of our WRs. While not yet proven, he has shown quite a bit of potential and provides a lot of reason for hope. My concern at CB is w/ the rest. Tillman has been going downhill and dealing w/ more and more injuries, and the older he gets, the less likely he is to find sudden great health. We have virtually nothing behind these two.

 

I hope so as well. hed be a steal for us if he can excel. I dont read much into INTs but i cant argue with the stat

 

[defiantgiant]

Well, Vasher racked up the picks. Personally, in many ways, I think interceptions are as much an over-rated stat as sacks can often times be. Look at Wale. He had a "decent" number of sacks, but we all known most all his sacks came in a handful of games where he was going against very weak RTs, while he was absent (in terms of pass rush) most of the season.

Totally agree. Interceptions can be very misleading. Look at Vasher, Deangelo Hall, Antonio Cromartie...there are plenty of guys who get very, very overrated because they get lots of picks but can't actually cover. Before we start comparing Bowman to Vasher, though, I'll say this: if picks are an overrated stat, pass deflections are probably an underrated one. I think they're a better indicator of how good a cover corner is at taking his receiver out of the picture, and they definitely favor Bowman over Vasher.

 

Vasher only has 28 pass deflections in his entire career, and he's never had more than 8 in a single season. Compare that to a decent cover corner like Tillman, who has 70 career passes deflected, and has gotten into double digits three times (most recently in 2008, when he had 17 passes broken up on top of his 3 picks.) Now compare Vasher to Bowman: in addition to his 6 picks, Bowman broke up 16 passes this year, twice as many as Vasher ever has in a season. That's only two short of Champ Bailey, and it's more than Antonio Cromartie, more than Quentin Jammer, more than Deangelo Hall, etc.

 

Picks can be misleading in either direction: you can equate Bowman with a guy like Vasher, who's much worse, or with guys who are much better. If picks were the only stat you looked at, you'd think Bowman and Darrelle Revis were equivalent: they each had 6 picks. You'd be missing out on the fact that Revis deflected a ridiculous 37 passes. Same thing with Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie: 6 picks, 31 passes broken up. You'd think Bowman was better than Sheldon Brown, who only had 5 picks, but got 22 PBUs. So looking at picks and pass deflections together gives you a more complete picture: Bowman's not an upper-echelon corner by any means, but he's not Vasher either. All things considered, I think he's in pretty good company where he is, especially for a guy in his first year as the starter.

[nfoligno]

I don't think this is the case, but you don't think I meant to compare Bowman to Vasher, right?

 

I like Bowman enough. The top question for his will be injury due to college and first season. This year was a big step forward, not only in terms of development, but in his ability to stay on the field. But he has to do it over time.

 

Honestly, I think our entire secondary is one massive question mark. Of all the parts therein, Bowman may be the most stable of the entire group. Most would say Tillman, but sorry, his play has simply not been all that for the last few years, and his injuries are becoming a greater and greater factor. He doesn't miss many games, and plays through the injury, but you can still see the decline in his play when he does. For example, the shoulder injury seemed to be a big issue as Tillman, once a solid tackling DB, seemed to more often whif on tackles.

 

We have options at SS, but none seem spectacular, and none are really proven or stable. FS is a joke. Depth at CB is non-existent.

 

For all the talk about FS, which I agree is a massive need, I wonder why so little has been discussed of CB. IMHO, the only reason Vasher is still on the roster is due to our total lack of depth. I still like Graham, but the staff sure doesn't. I read Hoke was not a fan, and that was the key reason Graham went from starting two years ago to barely being remembered this past year. Moore couldn't even make the game day roster, and I have read nothing positive about him since the draft. McBride has done nothing since that late rookie stint where he played decent.

 

The coaches always talk about how you need three starters at CB due to the high powered passing offenses in today's NFL. We have questions at starter, and a glaring hole for depth.

 

Totally agree. Interceptions can be very misleading. Look at Vasher, Deangelo Hall, Antonio Cromartie...there are plenty of guys who get very, very overrated because they get lots of picks but can't actually cover. Before we start comparing Bowman to Vasher, though, I'll say this: if picks are an overrated stat, pass deflections are probably an underrated one. I think they're a better indicator of how good a cover corner is at taking his receiver out of the picture, and they definitely favor Bowman over Vasher.

 

Vasher only has 28 pass deflections in his entire career, and he's never had more than 8 in a single season. Compare that to a decent cover corner like Tillman, who has 70 career passes deflected, and has gotten into double digits three times (most recently in 2008, when he had 17 passes broken up on top of his 3 picks.) Now compare Vasher to Bowman: in addition to his 6 picks, Bowman broke up 16 passes this year, twice as many as Vasher ever has in a season. That's only two short of Champ Bailey, and it's more than Antonio Cromartie, more than Quentin Jammer, more than Deangelo Hall, etc.

 

Picks can be misleading in either direction: you can equate Bowman with a guy like Vasher, who's much worse, or with guys who are much better. If picks were the only stat you looked at, you'd think Bowman and Darrelle Revis were equivalent: they each had 6 picks. You'd be missing out on the fact that Revis deflected a ridiculous 37 passes. Same thing with Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie: 6 picks, 31 passes broken up. You'd think Bowman was better than Sheldon Brown, who only had 5 picks, but got 22 PBUs. So looking at picks and pass deflections together gives you a more complete picture: Bowman's not an upper-echelon corner by any means, but he's not Vasher either. All things considered, I think he's in pretty good company where he is, especially for a guy in his first year as the starter.

 

[defiantgiant]

Oh yeah, I know you weren't actually comparing Vasher to Bowman. I was just trying to underscore the point that you can look at picks without them being misleading, so long as you take other stats into account too.

 

As for depth at CB, I agree it's a problem. I don't know what the staff's problem with Graham is, but I always thought he played decently enough as a fill-in. I remember reading some tidbit about how they graded him out very poorly after watching his 2008 film, so maybe there's actually a good reason for it. I'm not a good enough judge of cornerback play to tell.

 

As for the "three CBs" thing, though, I think we can kill two birds with one stone. Danieal Manning is actually a pretty capable nickel DB, and if Lovie and company were to sign Rolle, they could bump Manning down to second string at FS and have him play the nickel full time. Then we'd have a capable nickel, despite not having a third starting-caliber corner. We'd still need to draft an eventual replacement for Tillman (I like Walter Thurmond from Oregon a lot) but we wouldn't have any holes in the immediate starting lineup.

[nfoligno]

It isn't that I dislike DM as a nickel, but my concern there is, usually your nickel DB is also your backup for the starter, however, sometimes your nickel DB simply sucks when placed on the outside. I remember when we paid fairly big for RMJ, who was considered one of the top nickel DBs in the NFL. Due to injury, we needed to move him outside, and he was awful. That meant we had to look deeper into our depth for a DB to start. That could be the issue this year too. If a starter goes down, we can't just move our #3 up as our #3 can play the outside role. That means we are now reaching for a player to move up.

 

The problem looks worse, IMHO, when you consider the high injury risk I would argue both Bowman and Tillman have right now.

 

Seriously, just look at our group of CBs. It is really bad. Looking past our starters:

 

Vasher - Whatever he had he lost. He has been given opportunities, but has failed each time. He is simply no good. IMHO, the only reason he is on the roster today is due to our lack of depth, which says a lot.

 

Graham - I really just don't get it. I know what you are talking about, that the staff supposedly graded him out low at the end of the season two years ago, but I just don't get it. While he may not have been great, he was playing for the first time and still appeared to hold his own. How great did they expect him to be w/ zero prior playing time? And how we handled him in the offseason just killed me. Even when we were in need of CB bodies in camp due to injuries, we played guys who had no shot ahead of Graham. Graham was to be moved to FS, but it never seemed like we really pushed that development either, even moving him to nickel at one point. Then I read Hoke, new last year, didn't favor Graham, and that seems to be the reason for Graham questionable placement/development. But at the end of the day, the point is we have a player on the roster who the staff does not appear to favor, and thus you have to question the value.

 

McBride - Simply put, since he rookie year, he has been bad when given the shot, and as the shots have dwindled, it appears so has the confidence of the staff.

 

Moore - I don't even know what to think. I never felt he was big enough. Later in the year, I read the staff also questioned his size, but why then did we draft him in the first place. Is this an example of the GM/scouts and coach not being on the same page. Regardless, Moore could not so much as get on the game day roster, and that is even though there was a dire lack of depth and a great need. I have heard nothing positive, and do not believe he should be really considered or factored.

 

Turenne - Who?

 

That's it. Yea, there is DM, but I am talking about depth to support our starting CBs. Frankly, it is flat out ugly.

 

Oh yeah, I know you weren't actually comparing Vasher to Bowman. I was just trying to underscore the point that you can look at picks without them being misleading, so long as you take other stats into account too.

 

As for depth at CB, I agree it's a problem. I don't know what the staff's problem with Graham is, but I always thought he played decently enough as a fill-in. I remember reading some tidbit about how they graded him out very poorly after watching his 2008 film, so maybe there's actually a good reason for it. I'm not a good enough judge of cornerback play to tell.

 

As for the "three CBs" thing, though, I think we can kill two birds with one stone. Danieal Manning is actually a pretty capable nickel DB, and if Lovie and company were to sign Rolle, they could bump Manning down to second string at FS and have him play the nickel full time. Then we'd have a capable nickel, despite not having a third starting-caliber corner. We'd still need to draft an eventual replacement for Tillman (I like Walter Thurmond from Oregon a lot) but we wouldn't have any holes in the immediate starting lineup.

 

[defiantgiant]

I agree, we've got paper-thin depth behind the starters, and that's a problem. But that's a different problem than needing a starter or even needing a nickel. We need a guy who, if all goes well, won't see the field except in dime packages. That's not a lot of snaps. Meanwhile, at free safety, we need a starter to play every defensive snap. That's got to take priority, as nice as it would be to get a third starting-caliber corner like Leigh Bodden or Dunta Robinson.

 

If it were me and I had to choose between getting a new starting corner or a new starting free safety, here's what I'd do: sign Rolle, draft a developmental corner like Walter Thurmond, then sign a lower-tier FA corner like Rod Hood as a backup. Then maybe we cut McBride and Turenne. That way, we upgrade a deficient starting position, have a little cheap insurance against Tillman or Bowman getting hurt, and hopefully have a developmental guy waiting in the wings to take over for Tillman eventually. That's much better, in my mind, than adding a starting-caliber corner and neglecting the huge hole at safety.

 

I mean, it's not going to matter how well our corners play, as long as teams can keep sending a TE or a slot receiver down the seam a million times a game. If the pass defense is going to improve, we need a free safety who can take those guys away, and we don't have one on the roster. It's been a major weakness for a while, other teams know it, and they exploit it. Brian Griese, of all people, absolutely torched our secondary by just hitting that seam over and over again. Who were our safeties for that game? Mike Brown and Kevin Payne. Who were our starters at corner? Tillman and Graham. From watching that game, I think it's pretty clear which position was responsible for Brian freaking Griese throwing for over 400 yards.