Why Do I Agree With This So Much?

[madlithuanian]

Smart man!

 

 

lol,

 

There is no point in arguing with Mad on Smith.

 

He will not change his mind.

 

[madlithuanian]

1. Angelo: He seemed to draft decently at CB w/ some of the newer guys. Vasher and Tillman were the men, then injuries hit. He drafted some youth that were inexperienced. So instead of working schemes that would help the youngsters, Smith made them act like vets and set them up for failure.

Player: When you're already giving up the first, and will be all drive long down the field, does it really matter if you give up 50 every now and then? And again, if Smith woudl practice tackling, missed tackles would probably be fewer.

 

2. Angelo: If Smith would stop asking Jerry to draft fast cover 2 guys, maybe they'd be better off.

Player: If you were a OG in college, odds are you'll be a OG in the pros. Exceptions happen, but are rare. For every Urlacher, there's tons more experiments that have failed under the banner "coaching up" done by Smith. Oh yeah, Urlacher was under Dicky Animatron's watch...

 

3. Angelo: Yep, he's picked some injury prone guys. Deserve's the blame for that. There goes the 25%. But the entire roster of over 50+ guys are all injury prone and mental midgets? I think not. The TC's are a joke no matter what kind of straw-man BS you throw up there.

Players: Professionals get paid to do a job. How well they do is usally a direct result of the direction they get from their leader. You can have a ton of great employees, but without good direction from the CEO, problems arise. You act as though coaching isn't even needed. Why bother having coaches at all if it's all up to the players? I'm not asking a coach to hold hands, I'm asking him to treat his crew like men and ask them to hit and play hard and smart. Not sit around and run drills that don't amount to jack in a real game while you stare like a deer in headlights wondering why your vaunted perfect scheme is getting picked apart like a pack of vultures on carrion.

 

4. Angelo: Sure, he could hand Smith a better hand of cards. But Smith has his hand. Instead of doing the most with it. He keeps thinking a pair of 6's is the same as a full house. Play the 6's correctly.

Players: What does a fat player have to do with a bad scheme? A bad scheme is a bad scheme. Guess what?! Smith doesn't have the '85 Bears to play his vaunted scheme. He has what he freaking has. Use what you have to it's fullest potential instead of hoping that a run of the mill player will perform like a HoF'er. And um, poor execution usually starts in the country club camp

 

5. Angelo: Yep, if you draft guys and Smith is using them poorly, etc.. you need to man up and tell Smith to do it right. Henceforth, why Angelo gets 25% of the blame.

Players: nfo, you have no idea what goes on at practice and who takes what off. All I know is in basketball, Rodman barely practiced, but rocked game time. Phil Jackson was smart enough to know his audience, and put his team in a position to win by letting it be. Maybe Smith's practices are just plain crappy and don't mimic the real game well enough to make a good determination on a player's potential in game time.

 

Seems that your point WAS to defend Smith. Every single one of your posts was doing just that. Please don't play devil's advocate just to do so. I don't need to see "alternate' thoughts on Smith. I've seen enough evidence over the years that he is ill prepared to be a HC. And blame is going around. I didn't say Smith is 100%. I basically agreed with jason...and even went down from 60% to 50%. Angelo and the players are getting blame too.

 

We are arguing over the silliness of percentage points.

 

And if you think it's fun to poke the sleeping bear and watch me get upset, then so be it. I will not relent in my professing my dislike for Smith as the Bears' head coach until I see something that makes me re-think that. And I just don't see it happening. Possible. But not even remotely probable.

 

 

1. If you make a pro play 10 yards off the LOS, he cannot prevent a first.

 

Angelo: If Angele would add better talent, coaches may feel more confident in the CB playing near the LOS.

Player: Regardless where you line up, you make the play in front of you. Might fault Lovie for the DB giving up short stuff, but when the DB misses the tackle allowing a potential 5 yarder go for 50, thats on the player.

 

2. If you play a pro at one position he is weaker at than another, he will not preform well.

 

Angelo: If Angelo would draft players rather than athletes, the staff may better know where to line up a player.

Player: Sometimes that position you dreamed about playing isn't the one you are cut out for in the NFL. Instead of think about what "might have been" commit yourself and excel at a new position.

 

3. If you hold a country club camp, that attitude will refelct in the seasonal preformances of your team.

 

Angelo: If Angelo added players who were less injury prone and more mentally tough, we may be able to work them a bit harder.

Players: The coaches are just that, coaches. They are not mommy or daddy. The days of someone telling you "its time to wake up" are over. Time to grow up and learn responsibility. This is a game, but you get paid and it is your job. Your a professional. Act like it.

 

4. If you play an outdated scheme everyone has figured out, a pro player can't counter-balance that.

 

Angelo: Scheme aint great, but when we had better talent, it worked well enough. scheme requires a pass rush, and our players moves over the last few years to improve our pass rush leaves much to be desired.

Players: Here's an idea. Don't show up to camp fat and out of shape. Here is another idea. When the guy w/ a ball is in front of you, make the tackle. Scheme is FAR from perfect, but poor execution makes it look worse.

 

5. If you don't get your best pro player out on the field, he will not contribute, while a the lesser player doesn't perform.

 

Angelo: Grow a pair and don't allow your coach to bury guys you added on the roster. Plenty of GMs out there do the same.

Players: You may be a game day stud, but you need to understand most coaches in the league want to see that all week during practice. You can't take plays off and give a half arce performance in practice and expect to see significant action on game day.

 

The point here is not to defend Lovie and the coaches. You know my feelings there. But the point is to give alternative ways of looking at each example you give. Plenty of times I would agree it is the coaches, but I also think there is simply more than enough blame to go around.

 

[nfoligno]

Bear down bear, and get ready to growl because this is getting to be fun

 

1. Angelo: He seemed to draft decently at CB w/ some of the newer guys. Vasher and Tillman were the men, then injuries hit. He drafted some youth that were inexperienced. So instead of working schemes that would help the youngsters, Smith made them act like vets and set them up for failure.

Ah yea, you mean like Angelo's great Roe Williams? Oh wait. You mean the great Daniel Manning. No? How about our 5'2 CB Moore who Angelo just picked up. No, you must be talking about our great Ricky Manning Jr signing. Yea, Angelo did well with Tillman and Vasher, but lets not pretend he has brought in a bevy of CB talent.

Player: When you're already giving up the first, and will be all drive long down the field, does it really matter if you give up 50 every now and then? And again, if Smith woudl practice tackling, missed tackles would probably be fewer.

I'm sorry, but give me a break. FAR too often I watch WR make a wide open catch on 1st or 2nd down, way short of the 1st down market, only to see them put a move on our DBs for big gains rather than small ones. As for tackling, I would love to see us practice it more too, but lets be honest. These guys have practiced tackling all their lives. If they blowing it, it is more likely due to wanting to make ESPN highlight reels as opposed to what they were taught to do.

 

2. Angelo: If Smith would stop asking Jerry to draft fast cover 2 guys, maybe they'd be better off.

So your way of defending Angelo is to essentially call him a gutless tool? Who again is the GM? I know Lovie has a solid amount of power, but he does not choose what players are added to the team. If he just tells Angelo who to draft/sign and Angelo does it, then you can't give Angelo credit for his hits, and you have to basically consider us w/o a GM either way.

Player: If you were a OG in college, odds are you'll be a OG in the pros. Exceptions happen, but are rare. For every Urlacher, there's tons more experiments that have failed under the banner "coaching up" done by Smith. Oh yeah, Urlacher was under Dicky Animatron's watch...

I think I mentioned athletes, and you bring up OGs? How many of college OGs have we tried to play elsewhere? No, the problem is when Angelo drafts players like DM, Leon Joe, Okwo and others who he loves the athleticism of, but who may not really have a true NFL position, and if they do, it isn't so easily know. This has been a pet peeve of mine for years. I wants football players drafted, not just athletes who look good in shorts on a track.

 

3. Angelo: Yep, he's picked some injury prone guys. Deserve's the blame for that. There goes the 25%. But the entire roster of over 50+ guys are all injury prone and mental midgets? I think not. The TC's are a joke no matter what kind of straw-man BS you throw up there.

No straw here. We have a DT who was a rotational player in college, was questioned whether he could handle the NFL, and we wonder why the guy has to take Wednesdays off due to injury issues? Or how about how Angelo loves to sign OL who passed their prime when you could still smoke on airplanes. Look, I agree our camps are soft, but I also think Angelo has added a lot of soft players to the team. Who is considered one of our toughest players on the team? You usually here Kreutz name, and guess what, he was here before Angelo.

Players: Professionals get paid to do a job. How well they do is usally a direct result of the direction they get from their leader. You can have a ton of great employees, but without good direction from the CEO, problems arise. You act as though coaching isn't even needed. Why bother having coaches at all if it's all up to the players? I'm not asking a coach to hold hands, I'm asking him to treat his crew like men and ask them to hit and play hard and smart. Not sit around and run drills that don't amount to jack in a real game while you stare like a deer in headlights wondering why your vaunted perfect scheme is getting picked apart like a pack of vultures on carrion.

I have no clue what our CEO does, and how he handles the business has nothing to do with how I do my job. This goes back to drafting. When you consider character and draft football players, you often find men who take pride in their work. Just look at our DTs picks over the years. Harrison, Dusty, Tank and Harris all had character related red flags, and yet Angelo fell in love w/ the players and took them anyway.

 

4. Angelo: Sure, he could hand Smith a better hand of cards. But Smith has his hand. Instead of doing the most with it. He keeps thinking a pair of 6's is the same as a full house. Play the 6's correctly.

Funny, but it is a little harder to bluff when playing football. I agree Lovie and his staff do not do enough with what he is given, yet at the same time, is what he is given enough to win with? To go back to your analogy, you might bluff your way to a win w/ a pair of 6s (analogy would be trick plays) but how long does that last. You don't win tournaments by playing pair of 6s too often.

Players: What does a fat player have to do with a bad scheme? A bad scheme is a bad scheme. Guess what?! Smith doesn't have the '85 Bears to play his vaunted scheme. He has what he freaking has. Use what you have to it's fullest potential instead of hoping that a run of the mill player will perform like a HoF'er. And um, poor execution usually starts in the country club camp

And what if the fullest potential of the players given is a .500 team? What does a fat man have to do with it? Well, we had a player who was slated to start, but cared so little he showed up to camp out of shape and unable to even go through the practice reps, and you ask what does this matter?

 

5. Angelo: Yep, if you draft guys and Smith is using them poorly, etc.. you need to man up and tell Smith to do it right. Henceforth, why Angelo gets 25% of the blame.

So he gets 25% for not being a man and telling Lovie he is doing poorly, but doesn't he also get 25% for his failures in draft picks and FA moves? Um, I was never great at math, but that would up his level to 50%, which is more than I even said. I guess I have turned your opinion?

Players: nfo, you have no idea what goes on at practice and who takes what off. All I know is in basketball, Rodman barely practiced, but rocked game time. Phil Jackson was smart enough to know his audience, and put his team in a position to win by letting it be. Maybe Smith's practices are just plain crappy and don't mimic the real game well enough to make a good determination on a player's potential in game time.

Wait, we have no idea what goes on in practice, yet you "know" our practices are soft? Hmmm. And it says a lot that you have to reach into history, in another sport for that matter, to give an example of a player that doesn't practice but can do well in games. I think most NFL coaches believe a player needs to show he can play in practice before given a big role on the team.

 

Seems that your point WAS to defend Smith. Every single one of your posts was doing just that. Please don't play devil's advocate just to do so. I don't need to see "alternate' thoughts on Smith. I've seen enough evidence over the years that he is ill prepared to be a HC. And blame is going around. I didn't say Smith is 100%. I basically agreed with jason...and even went down from 60% to 50%. Angelo and the players are getting blame too.

 

I am not defending Smith, nor am I just playing Devils advocate. I have been on the bandwagon to get rid of Smith for years. During our SB run, I said his coaching held us back from being great, and I have bashed him non-stop since. I am not defending him. My real point is to not get so focused on one area when I think what is broken goes beyond just Smith. Let me put it this way, if we had a better HC, but Angelo making the moves he did, I think we would have still been a team that was seen as lacking. I think Angelo is a HUGE part of our problems, and in that, also point to the players. I have no love for Smith, but (a) feel Angelo deserves a bigger share of the blame and ( following that line of thought, feel our players are lacking also.

[madlithuanian]

I'm ready to raise the white flag...it's too hard to respond to bold, italic, double bold, different font,etc...

BUT NOT YET!

 

1. A: Talking more about Bowman, Payne, Vasher, Tillman, Chris Harris, Todd Johnson... Tillman and Vasher were more than solid for a few years. Beyond that, there is some hope, but mostly just warm bodies w/ a few busts. Again, he's responsible for 25%... Hey, I hated the RMJ pick up from day one. Bad karma.

P: All WR's should put moves on a DBs. Just because our WR's can't doesn't mean many others don't. That's why there's a stat out there called YAC. Agian, players 25% too.

 

2. A: Gutless tool. I like that. Agian, 25% only. Smith still can't do anything right with what he's given whether he asked for it or not.

P: OK, pick CB if you don't like OG. Most are still CB's in the pros. DM is mis-managed by Smith. He's a great nickel back. Leave it alone Zombie. Joe was a miss, and Okwo was a Smith request. How about Roach or J. Williams at LB. Nice picks to me...

 

3. A: And? Still 25%. Cutler's a tough guy. TJ 's a tough guy. Briggs tough guy. AP tough guy. Alex Brown tough guy. Chris Harris tough guy. Kellen Davis, seems tough.

P: I hate to say, but if you don't know what your CEO does, he's either not a good CEO or you spend too much time on blogs... What team doesn't take on character issues? Please. Very few NFL guys are choirboys... Some are worse than others, and the Bears have had their share. Again, a coach should put his players in position to win. Smith does not do that.

 

4. A: You make my point. Even if you bluff, you will eventually get called. But at least you're giving yourdelf a fighting chance rather than thinking your 6's are a full boat.

P: Apparently Smith didn't get through to the fat man. Doesn't seem like much of a leader to me... Must've given him a gist basket from Allen Brothers instead of Jenny Craig.

 

5. A: I'm good at math. It's 50% on Smith. You're far from turning my opinion. In fact, you just turn my stomach giving Smith so much positive love.

P: Fair enough. I go by what we hear. And yes, I do agree that practice is huge. The greats like Payton and Rice were amazing in practice. I referenced Rodman as an extreme example. The point is that given that a player performs well on Sunday, do you really give a flying s*%& what his practice habits are or how well he performs in a HC's sun tanning drill? While one should care if a guy beats his wife, kills people, etc...that a guy doesn't practice great, should be a non-issue.

 

I call BS man! You are totally defending Smith by attempting to place more blame on the GM and players! You are also completely playing Devil's Advocate because, even as you say, you've been all over Smith in the past. And the start of your post hints at the glee of just arguing for argument's sake!

 

If we had a better HC, we would have been in the playoffs these past 2 years. If not the past 3. And would have won the Super Bowl.

 

Hey, I don't like JA either! I want him out too! But I think a better HC can make up for some of JA's shortcomings, while a buffoon like Smith makes the problems worse. JA may have started the fire, but instead of bringing water, Smith throws gasoline. There is no doubt in my mind, that Smith is far more to blame regarding our current woes than JA. Yes, both are to blame, but Smith is twice as guilty if not more. The end.

 

 

 

Bear down bear, and get ready to growl because this is getting to be fun

 

1. Angelo: He seemed to draft decently at CB w/ some of the newer guys. Vasher and Tillman were the men, then injuries hit. He drafted some youth that were inexperienced. So instead of working schemes that would help the youngsters, Smith made them act like vets and set them up for failure.

Ah yea, you mean like Angelo's great Roe Williams? Oh wait. You mean the great Daniel Manning. No? How about our 5'2 CB Moore who Angelo just picked up. No, you must be talking about our great Ricky Manning Jr signing. Yea, Angelo did well with Tillman and Vasher, but lets not pretend he has brought in a bevy of CB talent.

Player: When you're already giving up the first, and will be all drive long down the field, does it really matter if you give up 50 every now and then? And again, if Smith woudl practice tackling, missed tackles would probably be fewer.

I'm sorry, but give me a break. FAR too often I watch WR make a wide open catch on 1st or 2nd down, way short of the 1st down market, only to see them put a move on our DBs for big gains rather than small ones. As for tackling, I would love to see us practice it more too, but lets be honest. These guys have practiced tackling all their lives. If they blowing it, it is more likely due to wanting to make ESPN highlight reels as opposed to what they were taught to do.

 

2. Angelo: If Smith would stop asking Jerry to draft fast cover 2 guys, maybe they'd be better off.

So your way of defending Angelo is to essentially call him a gutless tool? Who again is the GM? I know Lovie has a solid amount of power, but he does not choose what players are added to the team. If he just tells Angelo who to draft/sign and Angelo does it, then you can't give Angelo credit for his hits, and you have to basically consider us w/o a GM either way.

Player: If you were a OG in college, odds are you'll be a OG in the pros. Exceptions happen, but are rare. For every Urlacher, there's tons more experiments that have failed under the banner "coaching up" done by Smith. Oh yeah, Urlacher was under Dicky Animatron's watch...

I think I mentioned athletes, and you bring up OGs? How many of college OGs have we tried to play elsewhere? No, the problem is when Angelo drafts players like DM, Leon Joe, Okwo and others who he loves the athleticism of, but who may not really have a true NFL position, and if they do, it isn't so easily know. This has been a pet peeve of mine for years. I wants football players drafted, not just athletes who look good in shorts on a track.

 

3. Angelo: Yep, he's picked some injury prone guys. Deserve's the blame for that. There goes the 25%. But the entire roster of over 50+ guys are all injury prone and mental midgets? I think not. The TC's are a joke no matter what kind of straw-man BS you throw up there.

No straw here. We have a DT who was a rotational player in college, was questioned whether he could handle the NFL, and we wonder why the guy has to take Wednesdays off due to injury issues? Or how about how Angelo loves to sign OL who passed their prime when you could still smoke on airplanes. Look, I agree our camps are soft, but I also think Angelo has added a lot of soft players to the team. Who is considered one of our toughest players on the team? You usually here Kreutz name, and guess what, he was here before Angelo.

Players: Professionals get paid to do a job. How well they do is usally a direct result of the direction they get from their leader. You can have a ton of great employees, but without good direction from the CEO, problems arise. You act as though coaching isn't even needed. Why bother having coaches at all if it's all up to the players? I'm not asking a coach to hold hands, I'm asking him to treat his crew like men and ask them to hit and play hard and smart. Not sit around and run drills that don't amount to jack in a real game while you stare like a deer in headlights wondering why your vaunted perfect scheme is getting picked apart like a pack of vultures on carrion.

I have no clue what our CEO does, and how he handles the business has nothing to do with how I do my job. This goes back to drafting. When you consider character and draft football players, you often find men who take pride in their work. Just look at our DTs picks over the years. Harrison, Dusty, Tank and Harris all had character related red flags, and yet Angelo fell in love w/ the players and took them anyway.

 

4. Angelo: Sure, he could hand Smith a better hand of cards. But Smith has his hand. Instead of doing the most with it. He keeps thinking a pair of 6's is the same as a full house. Play the 6's correctly.

Funny, but it is a little harder to bluff when playing football. I agree Lovie and his staff do not do enough with what he is given, yet at the same time, is what he is given enough to win with? To go back to your analogy, you might bluff your way to a win w/ a pair of 6s (analogy would be trick plays) but how long does that last. You don't win tournaments by playing pair of 6s too often.

Players: What does a fat player have to do with a bad scheme? A bad scheme is a bad scheme. Guess what?! Smith doesn't have the '85 Bears to play his vaunted scheme. He has what he freaking has. Use what you have to it's fullest potential instead of hoping that a run of the mill player will perform like a HoF'er. And um, poor execution usually starts in the country club camp

And what if the fullest potential of the players given is a .500 team? What does a fat man have to do with it? Well, we had a player who was slated to start, but cared so little he showed up to camp out of shape and unable to even go through the practice reps, and you ask what does this matter?

 

5. Angelo: Yep, if you draft guys and Smith is using them poorly, etc.. you need to man up and tell Smith to do it right. Henceforth, why Angelo gets 25% of the blame.

So he gets 25% for not being a man and telling Lovie he is doing poorly, but doesn't he also get 25% for his failures in draft picks and FA moves? Um, I was never great at math, but that would up his level to 50%, which is more than I even said. I guess I have turned your opinion?

Players: nfo, you have no idea what goes on at practice and who takes what off. All I know is in basketball, Rodman barely practiced, but rocked game time. Phil Jackson was smart enough to know his audience, and put his team in a position to win by letting it be. Maybe Smith's practices are just plain crappy and don't mimic the real game well enough to make a good determination on a player's potential in game time.

Wait, we have no idea what goes on in practice, yet you "know" our practices are soft? Hmmm. And it says a lot that you have to reach into history, in another sport for that matter, to give an example of a player that doesn't practice but can do well in games. I think most NFL coaches believe a player needs to show he can play in practice before given a big role on the team.

 

Seems that your point WAS to defend Smith. Every single one of your posts was doing just that. Please don't play devil's advocate just to do so. I don't need to see "alternate' thoughts on Smith. I've seen enough evidence over the years that he is ill prepared to be a HC. And blame is going around. I didn't say Smith is 100%. I basically agreed with jason...and even went down from 60% to 50%. Angelo and the players are getting blame too.

 

I am not defending Smith, nor am I just playing Devils advocate. I have been on the bandwagon to get rid of Smith for years. During our SB run, I said his coaching held us back from being great, and I have bashed him non-stop since. I am not defending him. My real point is to not get so focused on one area when I think what is broken goes beyond just Smith. Let me put it this way, if we had a better HC, but Angelo making the moves he did, I think we would have still been a team that was seen as lacking. I think Angelo is a HUGE part of our problems, and in that, also point to the players. I have no love for Smith, but (a) feel Angelo deserves a bigger share of the blame and ( following that line of thought, feel our players are lacking also.