Possible Guard

['TD']

I look at our group of safeties, and I am not sure any could start for another team.

 

That could have been said about McGowan and Harris before they left. Harris wasn't a person many people thought the Bears would regret losing but made the ProBowl with Carolina. McGowan is now plays for the Pats. Safety is an ill managed postion on the team. It could be from bringing in washed up players, ie. Archuleta or not recognizing talent in the players mentioned.. Hell, Mike Brown didn;t look horrible on a bad KC team this year.

 

I definitely want to see a FS drafted. I just think the talent comparison at SS is similar to WR. There are alot of potential at both positions, but neither have proven anything. Most likely no player at any position would be the tops on a team that signed them.

[nfoligno]

Personally, I think you are nuts if you think our potential at SS is equal to that at WR. Our WRs have much to prove, but have at the same time shown much on the field. At SS? Well, our group of SS' is such that we are moving DM to SS. What does that say about our prospects at the position.

 

That could have been said about McGowan and Harris before they left. Harris wasn't a person many people thought the Bears would regret losing but made the ProBowl with Carolina. McGowan is now plays for the Pats. Safety is an ill managed postion on the team. It could be from bringing in washed up players, ie. Archuleta or not recognizing talent in the players mentioned.. Hell, Mike Brown didn;t look horrible on a bad KC team this year.

 

I definitely want to see a FS drafted. I just think the talent comparison at SS is similar to WR. There are alot of potential at both positions, but neither have proven anything. Most likely no player at any position would be the tops on a team that signed them.

 

['TD']

Personally, I think you are nuts if you think our potential at SS is equal to that at WR. Our WRs have much to prove, but have at the same time shown much on the field. At SS? Well, our group of SS' is such that we are moving DM to SS. What does that say about our prospects at the position.

Does moving DM to SS mean the Bears are talented at FS or nickel back? DM's movement of positions speaks little to me of the talent on the team. He changes positions more then Jenna Jameson.

 

That's fine if you think I'm nuts for thinking the potential at SS is equal to WR, cuz I think you are if you think it isn't. I don't think a single safety on the Bears will be as a top 10 safety in the league, just like I don't think a WR on the Bears will be considered top 10 in the league. I see no super stars in the making at either position. the talent as a starter may be there, Alfalava, but not brought to fruition (Harris and McGowan) due to the staff and system.

[Mongo3451]

Personally, I think you are nuts if you think our potential at SS is equal to that at WR. Our WRs have much to prove, but have at the same time shown much on the field. At SS? Well, our group of SS' is such that we are moving DM to SS. What does that say about our prospects at the position.

I kinda agree with him about SS. At WR and SS, we are loaded with unproven players that can be starters. I don't see any star quality at either position.

 

RE: Manning. I think he's being moved to SS because film has probably shown he has no clue what to do in pass coverage and it's his last chance to make it as a defensive player. People mention him as a nickle back, but the only thing I ever found him good at was blitzing. That makes him a one trick pony.

[nfoligno]

We actually do agree some here. I never said I felt any of our WRs were top 10 WRs. At the same time, I do not believe you have to have a top 10 WR. But at WRs, I do believe we have a group which has shown enough to believe we have 2 starters and talented depth. When I look at our group of safeties, honestly, there is not a one that I would say has shown me much to give me confidence in a single one as a starter.

 

Does moving DM to SS mean the Bears are talented at FS or nickel back? DM's movement of positions speaks little to me of the talent on the team. He changes positions more then Jenna Jameson.

 

That's fine if you think I'm nuts for thinking the potential at SS is equal to WR, cuz I think you are if you think it isn't. I don't think a single safety on the Bears will be as a top 10 safety in the league, just like I don't think a WR on the Bears will be considered top 10 in the league. I see no super stars in the making at either position. the talent as a starter may be there, Alfalava, but not brought to fruition (Harris and McGowan) due to the staff and system.

 

[nfoligno]

I kinda agree with him about SS. At WR and SS, we are loaded with unproven players that can be starters. I don't see any star quality at either position.

 

I never said any of our WRs would become stars. I said starter quality. But at the same time, I would simply argue our WRs have shown more as NFL players to give some support to the "potential" argument, where as the SS' have really not shown that much.

 

RE: Manning. I think he's being moved to SS because film has probably shown he has no clue what to do in pass coverage and it's his last chance to make it as a defensive player. People mention him as a nickle back, but the only thing I ever found him good at was blitzing. That makes him a one trick pony.

 

Agree and disagree on DM. To me, he struggles in zone coverage due to a lack of instincts. That kills him as a FS. As a nickel though, he would more often be assigned to a particular WR, rather than having to play smart, play off reads. There is simply less "recognition" issues as a nickel as it is more of a specific assignement, as opposed to FS where he would have far greater recognize/read and react responsibilities, which he struggles with.

 

Similar argument can be made at SS. There is a greater level of read responsibility, but the area of coverage is shorter, and thus his athleticism may better make up for the slower read/react timing.

 

Still, I would argue if we were so set and sold on our SS position, we would not be looking to make this move. We would simply keep DM as a nickel DB and return man. That we are moving him to SS, and talking as if he very well could be the starter, I think that reflect on our current group of SS'.

[Mongo3451]

name='nfoligno' date='Mar 26 2010, 09:23 AM' post='79451']

Still, I would argue if we were so set and sold on our SS position, we would not be looking to make this move. We would simply keep DM as a nickel DB and return man. That we are moving him to SS, and talking as if he very well could be the starter, I think that reflect on our current group of SS'.

I still think it's because he's ran out of areas to suck at. Mannings last stand, so to speak.

 

 

[Mongo3451]

name='nfoligno' date='Mar 26 2010, 09:23 AM' post='79451']

Still, I would argue if we were so set and sold on our SS position, we would not be looking to make this move. We would simply keep DM as a nickel DB and return man. That we are moving him to SS, and talking as if he very well could be the starter, I think that reflect on our current group of SS'.

I still think it's because he's ran out of areas to suck at. Mannings last stand, so to speak.

 

 

[bradjock]

I think there was more to it that than. Brown was slow and ineffective at FS. Our SS' sucked, and I think may have even seen injury, and we were getting torn up on the ground, thus we moved him. But in 2008, Brown was a shell of himself. Go back to Brown before the injury to see what a FS in our system can do.

 

I was thinking we just flip-flopped Payne & Brown. If I remember correctly, Payne looked ok at SS and Brown's name was rarely mentioned. We switched the two and Brown looked pretty good and Payne disappeared. Our safeties are only good when we have a pass rush. If we could have gotten to the damn quarterback last year, we wouldn't be talking about the safety position.

 

Why don't we ever play him in the box? What, you think our coaches are so awesome now? Don't you think Payne is better in the box, and yet how often did we try to play him at FS? And he isn't the only example. Since Angelo game to us, he has drafted SS bodies to play FS. The only time it worked was with the one guy that he didn't draft (Brown).

 

I'm thinking Steltz doesn't have the explosiveness and he's not a big hitter to play SS effectively. That's why we don't play him there. But he has the smarts to be in the right spot at FS. But you could be right. I like to think our coaches are not completely retarded . . . foolish optimism on my part.

 

We have talent and options and safety . . . that doesn't mean the talent and options are very good. DA looked like he could be our #1. Are you counting on that? Bennett is solid across the middle. Hester & Knox both suck at route running. If that doesn't improve, how's Martz going to take it. Iglesias??? Rashied??? That's a rough group.

 

Wow. Knox was a rookie that developed sooner than expected, yet last years solid play is worth what to you now? He sucks at route running? One, I did know that I have read that. Two, he was a freaking rookie. What, he would be a precise route runner as a rookie. Hester isn't great, but he is a damn sight better than you will give him credit.

 

You can call BS, but the argument against is the real BS. Am I saying we are loaded w/ studs at WR? No. But can you honestly tell me you feel more confident w/ so many other positions over WR? I would argue we have seen enough to believe we have potential starters in 4 WRs.

 

Look, I am not dumb enough to simply assume all the potential we talk about will come to fruition. At the same time, at WR, there is at least reason to believe it can happen. I look at our group of safeties, and I am not sure any could start for another team. I look at our CBs, and frankly, I feel little more confident. Yea, we have Tillman and maybe Bowman, but after that, nada. Simply put, there is reason for hope at WR, while at numerous other positions, little to none.

 

IMO, our WR's looked pretty good because of Cutler. If Orton was still here we wouldn't be excited about Know & DA. Cutler helped make them better. Just like our bad d-line helped our safeties look worse. Our WR's have an over-inflated value due to the QB.

 

I guess it is against time to call BS. Sorry, but that just doesn't happen nearly as often as so many want to believe. Most often, there are more than one reason a player slipped in the draft, especially if you are talking about the 5th round. How many guys have we drafted who we heard all about how they were 1st rounders that slipped for this reason or that. DJ Moore and Harrison come to mind.

 

Corey Graham & Zach Bowman are the two I think of. Some scout or magazine somewhere said, "They could have been a first rounder if he hadn't gotten hurt" Which I'll admit could easily be BS. Moore slipped because he's a midget and he doesn't have elite speed. I can't remember about Harrison.

 

I am not saying you can't strike it big, and frankly, in the 5th round I am far more willing to take chances. 5th rounders have weak odds making NFL rosters regardless of injury, so taking more risk in the 5th round is fine. My issue is taking such risks earlier, particularly the top 3 rounds.

 

Mark Bradley's the only guy like that I can think of. Maybe Chris Williams. You're right, we haven't done it much.

 

Starting a response, went back to read the original discussion, came back and deleted what I wrote. It was going off into a Martz scheme tangent. More specific to the question of whether Cutler can do well out of the gate w/ the OL and surrounding talent. You mention how Martz did well early. I would still argue that is questionable. Yes, Stl is an exception, but with exceptional talent to allow such a situation. Do you really think we have talent that even could emerge similar to Stl? Nope.

 

I have said this before, but I think Cutler is going to light it up in terms of yards this year. My concern is TDs, turnovers and rushing.

 

I think we're in good shape because last year we counted on Pace, Hester, Forte, and Olsen so heavily. IMO, Turner's insistence on sticking with those 4 cost him his job. By the time we bench Pace our season was over. How many times did we force it to Olsen? Martz knows that Pace is done, Hester's a slot receiver, Olsen needs to go, and Forte sucked last year. We've addressed these problems and upgraded the line by signing Manumaleuna. We're going to be good on offense.

[AZ54]

One thing I like about Martz is that all accounts say he's going to criticize and challenge players to be perfect. I thiink our offensive players are in for a bit of a shock but if they handle it well we should improve in all areas.

[bowlingtwig]

One thing I like about Martz is that all accounts say he's going to criticize and challenge players to be perfect. I thiink our offensive players are in for a bit of a shock but if they handle it well we should improve in all areas.

IF, now of course this is a big IF, can handle it, I think we will be looking forward to a very fun offense. Now lets just hope for the best with the Defense. I would hate for the Offense to be great but the D stop us from winning.

[Mongo3451]

I guess it is against time to call BS. Sorry, but that just doesn't happen nearly as often as so many want to believe. Most often, there are more than one reason a player slipped in the draft, especially if you are talking about the 5th round. How many guys have we drafted who we heard all about how they were 1st rounders that slipped for this reason or that. DJ Moore and Harrison come to mind.

 

Corey Graham & Zach Bowman are the two I think of. Some scout or magazine somewhere said, "They could have been a first rounder if he hadn't gotten hurt" Which I'll admit could easily be BS. Moore slipped because he's a midget and he doesn't have elite speed. I can't remember about Harrison.

 

I am not saying you can't strike it big, and frankly, in the 5th round I am far more willing to take chances. 5th rounders have weak odds making NFL rosters regardless of injury, so taking more risk in the 5th round is fine. My issue is taking such risks earlier, particularly the top 3 rounds.

 

Mark Bradley's the only guy like that I can think of. Maybe Chris Williams. You're right, we haven't done it much.

 

I think this may be close to JA's injury/character picks. We didn't lose too awful much in this.

 

Claude Harriott

Mark Bradley

Airese Currie

Dan Bazuin

Kevin Payne

Corey Graham

Chris Williams

Marcus Monk

Tank Johnson

Marcus Harrison

DJ Williams

Jarron Gilbert - just cause he can jump out of a pool.

[bradjock]

I think this may be close to JA's injury/character picks. We didn't lose too awful much in this.

 

Claude Harriott

Mark Bradley

Airese Currie

Dan Bazuin

Kevin Payne

Corey Graham

Chris Williams

Marcus Monk

Tank Johnson

Marcus Harrison

DJ Williams

Jarron Gilbert - just cause he can jump out of a pool.

 

I don't remember Bazuin being hurt or having bad character. What were the issues with Payne, Harrison, and Williams?

 

If you're counting character, you'd have to include Dusty Dvoracek. He was a nice pick in the 3rd if he could have stayed healthy.

 

We could also add a 3rd gropup labeled: "Guys who fell because they played at a small school." This would be D Manning, Johnny Knox, Matt Forte . . .

[defiantgiant]

We could also add a 3rd gropup labeled: "Guys who fell because they played at a small school." This would be D Manning, Johnny Knox, Matt Forte . . .

Plus Bernard Berrian, Jarron Gilbert, Garrett Wolfe, Chris Harris, etc. Then there are the late-round small-school guys like Corey Graham, Brandon McGowan, Adrian Peterson. All in all, I can't get mad at most of Angelo's picks from lesser-known football programs. Most of them have turned out to be good value for where they were chosen.

[nfoligno]

I don't recall there being red flags with Bazuin. He seemed like a reach, but I don't remember him coming with "flags".

 

Harrison had several flags. He had several injuries in college (knee injury, concussion, torn ACL) as well as character issues (arrested for drugs and questions of his taking plays off).

 

Williams came with injury red flag. Prior to the draft, it was reported he had back issues, and there were reports that several teams dropped him or took him off their boards entirely.

 

I don't recall any red flags with Payne.

 

I don't remember Bazuin being hurt or having bad character. What were the issues with Payne, Harrison, and Williams?

 

If you're counting character, you'd have to include Dusty Dvoracek. He was a nice pick in the 3rd if he could have stayed healthy.

 

We could also add a 3rd gropup labeled: "Guys who fell because they played at a small school." This would be D Manning, Johnny Knox, Matt Forte . . .

 

[AZ54]

Bazuin hurt his knee in the first minicamp with the Bears or something like that and he was never the same. Not that we even know what he was before the injury.

[ParkerBear7]

I recall that Bazuin was drafted with injury issues and health was a concern.