So much for Marshall..

[Alaskan Grizzly]

http://wap.nfl.com/site?t=uxH78wwF4fpVx6vF...mA&sid=nfl2

 

 

Looks like no "Cutler / Marshall" reunion this year.

[bradjock]

http://wap.nfl.com/site?t=uxH78wwF4fpVx6vF...mA&sid=nfl2

 

 

Looks like no "Cutler / Marshall" reunion this year.

 

You have to wonder if we hadn't given up our 2nd rounder for Adams . . . of course I doubt we could pay him the 50 million he required.

 

I can't imagine Denver would have traded him to us. They get rid of Cutler & Marshall & they're bad. McDaniels will get lynched if he keeps it up.

 

I'm surprised Washington didn't make a run at him.

 

Prediction time: Devin Aromashadu will put up Marshall-like numbers next season

[AZ54]

Prediction: Brandon Marshall will get suspended before the end of the season. Miami rewarded his bad behavior and there is no way he's not out partying all offseason....and down at Miami Beach!

[defiantgiant]

Landing Marshall is huge for Miami if he can stay out of trouble. They were fielding a bunch of slot receivers and Ted Ginn before this, with nobody who could both stretch the field and catch a football. Giving Henne a genuine go-to receiver should help him out tremendously, especially a guy like Marshall, who has no problem making catches in heavy coverage. Henne can force the ball to Marshall a little bit and not get burnt for it, just like Cutler did in Denver.

 

I totally agree about McDaniels...he's blown up a pretty high-octane offense and replaced it with Kyle Orton, Brady Quinn, and Jabar Gaffney. That's not to say that he didn't get good compensation: two firsts, two seconds, and a third is a hell of a lot, even for two young, talented starters. But if he doesn't land some real gems with those draft picks, he's going to get run out of town.

[AZ54]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I have a feeling McDaniels is going to learn this lesson very soon.

[defiantgiant]

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I have a feeling McDaniels is going to learn this lesson very soon.

Seriously. I know there's a learning curve for young players, but McDaniels' picks from the Cutler trade (Robert Ayers, Richard Quinn, Seth Olsen) haven't had any impact so far. If none of those guys steps up in the next couple of seasons, then McDaniels basically needs to get two Pro Bowlers out of the three picks he has left, just to break even on Cutler and Marshall.

[WheresMyronBaker]

Seriously. I know there's a learning curve for young players, but McDaniels' picks from the Cutler trade (Robert Ayers, Richard Quinn, Seth Olsen) haven't had any impact so far. If none of those guys steps up in the next couple of seasons, then McDaniels basically needs to get two Pro Bowlers out of the three picks he has left, just to break even on Cutler and Marshall.

 

 

I think hes going to have to do better than that. JA has drafted no less than 5 pro bowlers....none of which are skill position or quarterbacks. I dont think break even is 2 probowlers for Denver.

[Mongo3451]

I think hes going to have to do better than that. JA has drafted no less than 5 pro bowlers....none of which are skill position or quarterbacks. I dont think break even is 2 probowlers for Denver.

Agree and Disagree

 

Agree if Cutler returns to Pro-Bowl form. The price for a QB of that caliber is easily > than 2 of any other position.

 

Disagree if Cutler doesn't mature into a better steward of the ball and leader of this team, then 2 Pro-Bowlers is good for them on Cutler alone.

[defiantgiant]

I think hes going to have to do better than that. JA has drafted no less than 5 pro bowlers....none of which are skill position or quarterbacks. I dont think break even is 2 probowlers for Denver.

I just meant that Marshall and Cutler are both Pro Bowl players, so to break even on trading them away for draft picks, he needs to get at least two equally good players with the picks he got for Marshall/Cutler. But if you mean (like Mongo said) that a Pro Bowl QB or WR is worth more than a Pro Bowler at most other positions, I could see that. I guess I should say that he needs to get two equally good players at equally important positions: I think you could make an argument that corners, left tackles, and pass rushers are at least close to as important as QBs and receivers. Looking at the Broncos, I think Elvis Dumervil, Champ Bailey, and Ryan Clady are all probably close to as valuable as Cutler or Marshall. But yeah, if McDaniels drafts Pro Bowlers at center and strong safety or something, that's clearly not going to make up for trading away your whole passing game.

[nfoligno]

Personally, I think it is all about the QB. If he finds some good player, even pro bowlers, but is still lacking at QB, I don't think it matters who he finds. You can find a Brian Urlacher level MLB, but if you have not solved your QB position, I think you lost.

 

McD traded away a franchise QB. To offset this, IMHO, he needs to either find another franchise QB or win a SB. As with any move, if you win a SB you pretty much negate all else. But short of that, I think he has to find a franchise QB.

 

 

 

I just meant that Marshall and Cutler are both Pro Bowl players, so to break even on trading them away for draft picks, he needs to get at least two equally good players with the picks he got for Marshall/Cutler. But if you mean (like Mongo said) that a Pro Bowl QB or WR is worth more than a Pro Bowler at most other positions, I could see that. I guess I should say that he needs to get two equally good players at equally important positions: I think you could make an argument that corners, left tackles, and pass rushers are at least close to as important as QBs and receivers. Looking at the Broncos, I think Elvis Dumervil, Champ Bailey, and Ryan Clady are all probably close to as valuable as Cutler or Marshall. But yeah, if McDaniels drafts Pro Bowlers at center and strong safety or something, that's clearly not going to make up for trading away your whole passing game.

 

[defiantgiant]

Personally, I think it is all about the QB. If he finds some good player, even pro bowlers, but is still lacking at QB, I don't think it matters who he finds. You can find a Brian Urlacher level MLB, but if you have not solved your QB position, I think you lost.

 

McD traded away a franchise QB. To offset this, IMHO, he needs to either find another franchise QB or win a SB. As with any move, if you win a SB you pretty much negate all else. But short of that, I think he has to find a franchise QB.

I can see that point. I'd be surprised if either Orton or Brady Quinn turned into a franchise QB, so McDaniels better get one in the draft.

 

I posted this in another thread, but McDaniels just traded Tony Scheffler to the Lions. He really is blowing up Shanahan's old offense over there, and it sure seems like it's just a system thing, like he brought his offensive system over from the Patriots and just started jettisoning all the guys who didn't fit, regardless of talent and production.

[nfoligno]

Yet that is sort of what surprises me about Scheffler. NE does like the TE, and from all reports, are looking to deal for a TE now. They sure have spent enough picks trying to find one. So it stands to reason the TE is very much a part of NE's offensive system, and thus you would think part of Denvers.

 

I have personally always had a big issue with this sort of thing. I get that coaches have systems they like to run, but to me, if a coach is really all that, he should be able to adapt his system in order to fit players. That doesn't mean he must totally change his system for a medium level player, but if a team has upper tier talent, I just question getting rid of all that talent just to make your system fit.

 

Honestly though, the one truly at fault here is likely Denver's owner. It was he who hired a coach who ran a system that didn't match the talent at hand, and thus began the changes.

 

 

 

I can see that point. I'd be surprised if either Orton or Brady Quinn turned into a franchise QB, so McDaniels better get one in the draft.

 

I posted this in another thread, but McDaniels just traded Tony Scheffler to the Lions. He really is blowing up Shanahan's old offense over there, and it sure seems like it's just a system thing, like he brought his offensive system over from the Patriots and just started jettisoning all the guys who didn't fit, regardless of talent and production.

 

[defiantgiant]

Yet that is sort of what surprises me about Scheffler. NE does like the TE, and from all reports, are looking to deal for a TE now. They sure have spent enough picks trying to find one. So it stands to reason the TE is very much a part of NE's offensive system, and thus you would think part of Denvers.

 

I have personally always had a big issue with this sort of thing. I get that coaches have systems they like to run, but to me, if a coach is really all that, he should be able to adapt his system in order to fit players. That doesn't mean he must totally change his system for a medium level player, but if a team has upper tier talent, I just question getting rid of all that talent just to make your system fit.

 

Honestly though, the one truly at fault here is likely Denver's owner. It was he who hired a coach who ran a system that didn't match the talent at hand, and thus began the changes.

I'm trying to think of the last time a head coach actually had success choosing his offensive system over his roster, and I can't come up with anything. I agree with you: good coaches have to adapt the system they run to the players they have. To continue with the Patriots example, look at what they did when Brady went down and Cassel stepped in. He was getting creamed for the first few games until they figured out that he was way more effective at reading defenses in the shotgun. Then they switch their passing game around, run almost everything out of the shotgun, and Cassel plays like a legit starter. Everybody talks about the Patriots' offensive system, but to me, that offense is more defined by adaptability to its personnel than by anything else. They were a totally run-heavy offense with Corey Dillon in 2004, then they switched to a pass-heavy spread when they got Moss and Welker, but you'll see them go right back to hammering the run when they're playing a poor run defense.

 

That's what worries me about Martz: he reminds me a lot more of McDaniels than Belichick. He doesn't seem like he's willing to adapt, he seems like he runs his system and that's it. It was a hit when he happened to have the personnel to run it perfectly, but it's flopped every time he didn't. Maybe he'll surprise everybody and change his system to fit Chicago's personnel, I don't know. He's certainly smart enough to do it, but he seems too stubborn.

['TD']

I don't think it's a system issue with McDaniels. It all started with a system issue tho, a legitimate one imo.

 

He had a chance to get a QB that succeeded and he coached in his system the year prior. He had a QB that has flaws that can't suceed in his system. He inquired about a trade, it got out, Cutler got butthurt and demanded out.

 

I think he is just trying to get control of his team. Telling the players that you're either with us or against us. Marshall leaving definitely wasn't a system issue, it was personality/attitude one. Marshall thrived in his system. He benched both Marshall (Marshall claimed leg injury) and Schefflar at the end of the year because of attitude/personality issues.

 

I figured Schefflar would get flat out released, I'm surprised they got some value.

[madlithuanian]

Man, that sounds eerily familiar...

 

Honestly though, the one truly at fault here is likely Denver's owner. It was he who hired a coach who ran a system that didn't match the talent at hand, and thus began the changes.

 

[AZ54]

I said last year that sometimes coaches come out of "systems" but dont understand the nuances of it. McDaniels so far seems to fit this mold where he believes it's the "system" that wins and not the players. Ultimately it's always the players that win games and a good coach never forgets that. The system just puts them in the right position to win but you need guys who can execute and you must have some "blue-chip" players out there than can still execute when the system breaks down. Without those guys your system gets you an average team, perhaps a good one, but not a Superbowl winner. McDaniels has given up two blue-chip players, at least based on their on-the-field performance.

[bradjock]

Yet that is sort of what surprises me about Scheffler. NE does like the TE, and from all reports, are looking to deal for a TE now. They sure have spent enough picks trying to find one. So it stands to reason the TE is very much a part of NE's offensive system, and thus you would think part of Denvers.

 

But don't they want a TE who can block in pass protection and then roll-out? It could be Olsen is too much of a liability.

 

I have personally always had a big issue with this sort of thing. I get that coaches have systems they like to run, but to me, if a coach is really all that, he should be able to adapt his system in order to fit players. That doesn't mean he must totally change his system for a medium level player, but if a team has upper tier talent, I just question getting rid of all that talent just to make your system fit.

 

Talent is talent. You need to find a spot where a guy can succeed. Why can't Sims play SS? He's 6'0 225. Afalava is 5'11 215. Kevin Payne is 6'0 212. Sims has great speed. He'd be one helluva a SS. Detroit wouldn't trade within the division, but I'd love to have given our 5th rounder for him.

 

Olsen isn't a blocker, he's a receiver. Instead of dumping him or trying to get him to beef up, he should shed a few pounds & play WR. Don't fit your system around the player. Find a place where the player can succeed. I don't see Antonio Gates doing much blocking.

 

Honestly though, the one truly at fault here is likely Denver's owner. It was he who hired a coach who ran a system that didn't match the talent at hand, and thus began the changes.

 

Agreed. Maybe McDaniels is the next John Gruden. But all he's done is dump assets for potential draft picks. Good luck with that.

[defiantgiant]

Talent is talent. You need to find a spot where a guy can succeed. Why can't Sims play SS? He's 6'0 225. Afalava is 5'11 215. Kevin Payne is 6'0 212. Sims has great speed. He'd be one helluva a SS. Detroit wouldn't trade within the division, but I'd love to have given our 5th rounder for him.

Sims worked out as a safety during the draft, but I don't know if he could actually move there. In any case, weak-side linebacker is a way, WAY more valuable position than strong safety for most teams. Unless you're looking at a really unique talent at SS like the Steelers and Cardinals have, you'd probably rather have a guy play WLB if he can do both.

[nfoligno]

But don't they want a TE who can block in pass protection and then roll-out? It could be Olsen is too much of a liability.

 

I think you misunderstood the point, as it had nothing to do with Olsen. The point was made that McD was getting rid of players that didn't fit his system. I said that is why it was a surprise that he got rid of Scheffler as he would seem to fit NE's system, and thus Denvers. Another poster said McD is just trying to get rid of the attitudes on team team. In the end, I think it just comes down to McD trying to remold the team with "his" players, which means both system and attitude.

 

Talent is talent. You need to find a spot where a guy can succeed. Why can't Sims play SS? He's 6'0 225. Afalava is 5'11 215. Kevin Payne is 6'0 212. Sims has great speed. He'd be one helluva a SS. Detroit wouldn't trade within the division, but I'd love to have given our 5th rounder for him.

 

I think, if the size works out, it is easier to move from SS to LB than the other way around. There is a greater level of coverage to SS than LB. Honestly, I just don't know enough about Sims. I thought he was a good player, but as cheap as Det just let him go, maybe I was wrong.

 

Olsen isn't a blocker, he's a receiver. Instead of dumping him or trying to get him to beef up, he should shed a few pounds & play WR. Don't fit your system around the player. Find a place where the player can succeed. I don't see Antonio Gates doing much blocking.

 

Disagree all around. One, I do match the system to the talent. Doesn't mean you throw out the playbook, but you refine it to best utilize the talent you have. Jump to the other side of the ball. If your system is a power run offense and you find a player like Forte, to you continue to play him as if you had a 240lb RB or do you adapt your system to fit your personnel? Also disagree with the concecpt of moving Olsen to WR. Olsen is a mismatch at TE, but as a WR, he would actually be slow, even if he shed lbs. Finally, you mention you don't see Gates blocking. No, you don't. However, I wonder what Gates would look like if SD's OL was so bad Rivers had milla-seconds to throw.

 

Agreed. Maybe McDaniels is the next John Gruden. But all he's done is dump assets for potential draft picks. Good luck with that.

 

IMHO, McD is going to either boom or bust, w/ little in between. If he hits on draft picks and creates a great team, he will reach upper tier levels of coaching respect. But after dumping so much talent, I am not sure that much of anything less would be considered anything but a bust.

[nfoligno]

I think it is both. I agree he is trying to get rid of players who may not fully buy into his system, yet at the same time, that system is part of the equation. It isn't just his getting rid of Cutler, but who he replaced him with, and now getting another fairly similar QB in Brady.

 

Another player I might point to is Royal, who is still on the team. Royal had great success in one role his rookie year, but in comes McD and his role changes due in large part to the changed system, and Royal struggled in such a role all year. Rather than try to adapt your playcalling to utilize a player who was a playmaker the prior year, they instead continue to try and force that player into a role that doesn't suit him.

 

I don't think it's a system issue with McDaniels. It all started with a system issue tho, a legitimate one imo.

 

He had a chance to get a QB that succeeded and he coached in his system the year prior. He had a QB that has flaws that can't suceed in his system. He inquired about a trade, it got out, Cutler got butthurt and demanded out.

 

I think he is just trying to get control of his team. Telling the players that you're either with us or against us. Marshall leaving definitely wasn't a system issue, it was personality/attitude one. Marshall thrived in his system. He benched both Marshall (Marshall claimed leg injury) and Schefflar at the end of the year because of attitude/personality issues.

 

I figured Schefflar would get flat out released, I'm surprised they got some value.