Something that bugs me on the OL

[nfoligno]

Reading an ESPN mailbag, it was talking about the open competition at LG, and spoke about Shaffer working there. I know this has been touched on, but hey, its slow

 

Two things that standout/bug me about working Shaffer at LG.

 

One. If Shaffer is in the competition at LG, that means he is not in the competition at RT. I personally hope Omiyale can play RT, but why would we simply put him there w/o legit competition? Based on his play last year, I would think he was (at minimum) have to earn a starting job this year. Some had previously said Shaffer was at LG in workouts only due to Beekman playing C while Kreutz was hurt, but it sounds more like we plan to allow Shaffer to compete at LG, which means he is not competing at RT. And I don't want to hear about some 7th rounders or undrafted rookie FAs competing with Omiyale. If Shaffer isn't in the RT battle, I think that is a mistake.

 

Two. This is an old issue of mine, but I hate when our top backup for one position (or multiple) is also the starter at another position. If Shaffer does start at LG, and then either Williams or Omiyale need to be replaced, that means we have put ourselves in a position to need to make two changes rather than one.

 

I liked the idea of Omiyale moving to RT, but at the same time, I liked the idea of his having to compete with Shaffer. Shaffer is far from great, but he is decent/solid enough that if Omiyale won the job, he would have earned it. If Shaffer is not at RT, then Omiyale doesn't have to earn the job.

 

While it would not be a great competition, based on what we have, I would just as soon have Beekman compete with the Louis at LG while Shaffer and Omiyale compete at RT. Especially in Martz system, there is a priority on the OT play, and I think we should be more focused on that, rather than simply handing the job to one of the worst OL players any of us have ever seen.

[Guest TerraTor]

One. If Shaffer is in the competition at LG, that means he is not in the competition at RT. I personally hope Omiyale can play RT, but why would we simply put him there w/o legit competition? Based on his play last year, I would think he was (at minimum) have to earn a starting job this year. Some had previously said Shaffer was at LG in workouts only due to Beekman playing C while Kreutz was hurt, but it sounds more like we plan to allow Shaffer to compete at LG, which means he is not competing at RT. And I don't want to hear about some 7th rounders or undrafted rookie FAs competing with Omiyale. If Shaffer isn't in the RT battle, I think that is a mistake.

 

 

How many times have we annointed someone a starter at another position?

 

Hester is a #1 WR

 

Never put a safety at one spot. Had DE's at DT...

 

The fact that this squad can actually put this guy at a staring position blows my mind. Let alone be on the team. No one whiffed or got blown as often as him

[AZ54]

I don't know that we can go back in history and say this situation is due to the same leadership. We have Tice and Martz making these statements, and really I think it's all Tice at this point as far as the Oline. Yes, we do know Lovie supports and and all player rotations instead of focusing on one role but quite honestly I expected Tice to be different in this aspect. As always I'll wait to evaluate the results.

 

1) It could be this is a smokescreen to push Beekman to be better since he really has no competition.

 

2) There is another side to this too that just came to mind: The Trib reported today that we are likely to carry more than 4 WR on the active roster. That means some other position has to give up a roster spot on game days. Could it be the coaches want that spot to come from the Oline and thus they are asking Shaffer to get some practice at OG even though the reality is he might just be the emergency backup on gameday? Meanwhile they throw him a bone about possibly being the starter there if he's better than Beekman and conversely Beekman gets some competition. He could fill that role regardless of being the starting RT or backup. In this case Tice is saying that Omiyale is NOT an OG and he doesn't want him there even in a backup role. If this is the logic then I say Tice and Martz and doing what they'd be doing anyway but also finding a way to setup a competition at LG...nothing wrong with that IMO.

[brletich]

without pads on I don't think it matters where an OLineman lines up to be honest...not much you are going to get from practicing with underwear on. If it sticks through training camp THEN I will begin to worry about Frank Omigoshhemissedanotherblock not having competition.

[jason]

Good thing the Bears picked up Corey Wooten in the 4th, and Joshua Moore in the 5th...because DE and DB were OBVIOUSLY bigger needs than OL.

 

Honestly, if we're sitting here talking about Omilaye, Beekman, and Schaffer as the main competition for more than one position, then it's a problem that needed to be addressed sooner than a training camp battle.

[nfoligno]

1) It could be this is a smokescreen to push Beekman to be better since he really has no competition.

 

Not sure this makes sense. If anyone needs at least the appearance of competition, would it not be Omiyale? When has Beekman ever been given anything? Beekman doesn't seem to need the smokescreen. Hell, the way he has been treated, if told he would compete with Louis, that would appear legit to him. Omiyale on the other hand, w/ his contract in place, I don't see him feeling legit pressure from a 7th round rookie.

 

2) There is another side to this too that just came to mind: The Trib reported today that we are likely to carry more than 4 WR on the active roster. That means some other position has to give up a roster spot on game days. Could it be the coaches want that spot to come from the Oline and thus they are asking Shaffer to get some practice at OG even though the reality is he might just be the emergency backup on gameday? Meanwhile they throw him a bone about possibly being the starter there if he's better than Beekman and conversely Beekman gets some competition. He could fill that role regardless of being the starting RT or backup. In this case Tice is saying that Omiyale is NOT an OG and he doesn't want him there even in a backup role. If this is the logic then I say Tice and Martz and doing what they'd be doing anyway but also finding a way to setup a competition at LG...nothing wrong with that IMO.

 

I never have issue w/ competition, and do not have issue with competition for Beekman, but even the way you write it up, it still seems like in order to (a)get competition at OG and ( give Shaffer reps at OG, they are at the same time taking him out of the RT competition, where I would argue we need the competition much more.

 

At the end of the day, this may be much ado about nada. Maybe this is 100% due to Kreutz injury, and thus Beekman playing center. Maybe this is about getting Shaffer early practice reps and looks inside, even though the plan is for him to compete with Shaffer. Until camp, we really just do not know. The only reason I brought this up is the talk that Shaffer is actually part of the OG competition. I guess we will find out once camp rolls around, but tell me this. Would you not be a bit sick if Shaffer were soley in the competition at OG and Omiyale's main competition was Marten or Webb?

[nfoligno]

Good thing the Bears picked up Corey Wooten in the 4th, and Joshua Moore in the 5th...because DE and DB were OBVIOUSLY bigger needs than OL.

 

I wasn't happy with the Wooten pick, but I can accept that one a bit more. You know how I feel about the OL, but when you are talking about a pick in the 4th round, value is a big deal and in Wooten, we did seem to add a player with high value. Further, I would not say our situation at DE is set, or even solid. Sure, we may have Peppers, but we dumped Brown and lets not pretend Idonije or Anderson are any more solid than the likes of Beekman or Shaffer. I am with you on the Moore pick.

 

Honestly, if we're sitting here talking about Omilaye, Beekman, and Schaffer as the main competition for more than one position, then it's a problem that needed to be addressed sooner than a training camp battle.

 

You know how I feel about this, but I am talking about moving forward with what we have. I would rather see Shaffer compete with Omiyale. Beekman is anything but a stud, but is at least decent. You pretty much know what you are getting with him. Omiyale is a total wild card, and we simply have no clue what we are going to get.

[madlithuanian]

Rex Grossman is our quarterback...

 

How many times have we annointed someone a starter at another position?

 

[madlithuanian]

As long at Smith is HC, I am weary... I expect the same things to happen unless I'm proven wrong. Just having Martz and Tice does not mean the puppetmaster still isn't pulling the strings...

 

I don't know that we can go back in history and say this situation is due to the same leadership. We have Tice and Martz making these statements, and really I think it's all Tice at this point as far as the Oline. Yes, we do know Lovie supports and and all player rotations instead of focusing on one role but quite honestly I expected Tice to be different in this aspect. As always I'll wait to evaluate the results.

 

[madlithuanian]

I can't help but laugh!

 

That's like asking which car you like better...the Pinto, Gremlin or Yugo.

 

Good thing the Bears picked up Corey Wooten in the 4th, and Joshua Moore in the 5th...because DE and DB were OBVIOUSLY bigger needs than OL.

 

Honestly, if we're sitting here talking about Omilaye, Beekman, and Schaffer as the main competition for more than one position, then it's a problem that needed to be addressed sooner than a training camp battle.

 

[nfoligno]

Gremlin. Always did like the movie, so may as well have a car of the same name.

 

I can't help but laugh!

 

That's like asking which car you like better...the Pinto, Gremlin or Yugo.

 

[madlithuanian]

Me too. I'm partial to Phoebe Cates...

 

 

Gremlin. Always did like the movie, so may as well have a car of the same name.

 

[AZ54]

Would you not be a bit sick if Shaffer were soley in the competition at OG and Omiyale's main competition was Marten or Webb?

 

Hell yes.

 

I'm already nervous as it is about the Oline and if Shaffer isn't in the competition at RT then we do have a problem. Tice has film on Shaffer from last year and Omiyale from a couple years ago. Maybe they just want Omiyale to get more reps in the minicamps at RT so he gets back in his comfort zone. Then we open up the RT competition in training camp. Meanwhile Shaffer gets some minicamp reps at LG to see if he can fit in there for a backup role. If Shaffer is better there than Beekman and IF Omiyale is solid at RT you put your best 5 on the field. Given what we went through last year I'll take any improvement and I don't care where (or who) it comes from.

[bradjock]

IMO we're putting our 5 best o-linemen on the field & Beekman ain't one of them. We missed on the guard from Seattle & the Times is saying we'll be interested in Justin Smiley. The draft was bad for guards. I'm guessing Shaffer at guard is better then Beekman.

 

I get we want competition for Omiyale, but it's better to make your top 5 a priority.

 

 

[nfoligno]

One. Your assuming Omiyale is one of our top 5 OL. Based on last year, that is a pretty huge assumption.

 

Two. Has Shaffer ever even played OG? Maybe he has, but I have only known about him playing OT (RT and LT). Maybe he can play OG, but to me, his value is more at OT, and until Omiyale proves he can play OT, that is where Shaffer should be working out.

 

Beekman is definitely a player I would like to upgrade over, but I am more confident at this moment w/ Beekman starting than Omiyale. W/ Beekman, we pretty much know what we are going to get. It isn't great by any means, but he has not been our worst OL either. Omiyale on the other hand is a total unknown at OT. He was freaking awful at OG, and the hope is a move to OT will improve his outlook, but that is such an unknown, it is there I think we should focus Shaffer.

 

IMO we're putting our 5 best o-linemen on the field & Beekman ain't one of them. We missed on the guard from Seattle & the Times is saying we'll be interested in Justin Smiley. The draft was bad for guards. I'm guessing Shaffer at guard is better then Beekman.

 

I get we want competition for Omiyale, but it's better to make your top 5 a priority.

 

[LT2_3]

Nfo - I have a problem with your assumption that if Shaffer is competing at LG, then he is not competing at ORT. I don't see why it has to be one or the other in voluntary workouts. The news that was reported was that they were looking at Shaffer at OG. Did they also say that he was out of the running at ORT? No. They didn't.

 

I have a feeling that they feel they know what they would have in Shaffer at ORT and they know what Omiyale would have to achieve to surpass that.

 

I don't see how it could be anything but positive that they are trying guys at different spots to see what they might have.

[bradjock]

One. Your assuming Omiyale is one of our top 5 OL. Based on last year, that is a pretty huge assumption.

 

True, but it's not my grade or your grade that counts. The team seems to believe he's capable of being a good RT. They thought this back before we signed Pace. There was talk we'd move him to RT before we ever signed Tice or Martz. For better or for worse, this move seems inevitable.

 

Two. Has Shaffer ever even played OG? Maybe he has, but I have only known about him playing OT (RT and LT). Maybe he can play OG, but to me, his value is more at OT, and until Omiyale proves he can play OT, that is where Shaffer should be working out.

 

Which tells me we're that unhappy with Beekman that we're grasping at straws.

 

Beekman is definitely a player I would like to upgrade over, but I am more confident at this moment w/ Beekman starting than Omiyale. W/ Beekman, we pretty much know what we are going to get. It isn't great by any means, but he has not been our worst OL either. Omiyale on the other hand is a total unknown at OT. He was freaking awful at OG, and the hope is a move to OT will improve his outlook, but that is such an unknown, it is there I think we should focus Shaffer.

 

Agreed. We need to sign another guard. Even if it's a bad player like Smiley that we hope can turn it around.

 

 

[nfoligno]

Nfo - I have a problem with your assumption that if Shaffer is competing at LG, then he is not competing at ORT. I don't see why it has to be one or the other in voluntary workouts. The news that was reported was that they were looking at Shaffer at OG. Did they also say that he was out of the running at ORT? No. They didn't.

 

One, it wasn't just reported that they were "looking at him at OG," but that he was competing for the starting OG position. There is a difference in those two expressions IMHO. Two, I have said numerous times in other posts that if this is just a mini-camp thing, then no big deal. If ever, this is a time to mix things up. I also said if this is really more about Kreutz' injury, and thus needing to move Beekman to center, fine. But Tice was the one that said Shaffer was competing for the OG starting job, thus it sounds like it is more than a mini camp thing.

 

Again, as I have said, if this is just an early workout practice thing, no big deal at all. If this is a training camp thing, then i do think it becomes a bigger deal.

 

I have a feeling that they feel they know what they would have in Shaffer at ORT and they know what Omiyale would have to achieve to surpass that.

 

Totally disagree with this idea.

 

One, players like Tait, Miller and many others show that what you get from year to year can be very different. It is pretty poor management to simply expect a player to play at prior year levels w/o even feeling the need to see him. Shaffer may not be as old, but he is 30 and no spring chicken either, and I would argue is less proven (consistent) than either Tait or Miller were.

 

Two, OL is one of those areas where chemistry simply means so much. I disagree with the idea that Shaffer can spend much/most of camp working inside, and then just move him to OT whenever you want.

 

I don't see how it could be anything but positive that they are trying guys at different spots to see what they might have.

 

Really? Ask Daniel Manning his opinion on that, among others. I know it is a novel idea, but how about having our players practice and (are you ready for this) play at the positions they are best suited for. Lets see. Last year we signed Omiyale, a player who had developed since joining the NFL at OT. His play at OT was good enough for us to give him a pretty nice contract (considering the lack of experience). Where do we play him? OG, where he has no experience or development. Oh, and how about we take this kid we drafted to be our franchise LT, and play him at RT, the spot few scouts felt he could handle. Go back and read his draft/scouting reports. Well suited to play LT, but lacking the strength to play RT. Now, we take Shaffer, who I believe has always played OT, and we are going to move him inside to OG.

 

It sounds nice in theory when you talk about practicing guys at different spots, but have you ever heard the expression "jack of all trades, master of none?"

[bradjock]

Really? Ask Daniel Manning his opinion on that, among others. I know it is a novel idea, but how about having our players practice and (are you ready for this) play at the positions they are best suited for. Lets see. Last year we signed Omiyale, a player who had developed since joining the NFL at OT. His play at OT was good enough for us to give him a pretty nice contract (considering the lack of experience). Where do we play him? OG, where he has no experience or development. Oh, and how about we take this kid we drafted to be our franchise LT, and play him at RT, the spot few scouts felt he could handle. Go back and read his draft/scouting reports. Well suited to play LT, but lacking the strength to play RT. Now, we take Shaffer, who I believe has always played OT, and we are going to move him inside to OG.

 

On D Manning, we've made too much of how moving him around's hindered his development. For 4 years he's played mostly FS. He sucks at coverage. Period.

 

St. Clair was okay outside, inside. Never great, but solid. I see Shaffer being the same. Guys who can play will get it done regardless.

 

Omiyale was mediocre in. He'll be mediocre out. I do worry about who's calling the shots. It's like someone wants Omiyale to start because we paid him.

[nfoligno]

Omiyale was mediocre? That may be a bit over stated. I hope he is better outside. In fact, I hope he is good. Look at Williams, who was absolutely awful at RT but solid at LT. Some players (like St. Clair) may be able to be at least decent anywhere, others (if not most others) have a position that fit at and others they do not.

 

Really? Ask Daniel Manning his opinion on that, among others. I know it is a novel idea, but how about having our players practice and (are you ready for this) play at the positions they are best suited for. Lets see. Last year we signed Omiyale, a player who had developed since joining the NFL at OT. His play at OT was good enough for us to give him a pretty nice contract (considering the lack of experience). Where do we play him? OG, where he has no experience or development. Oh, and how about we take this kid we drafted to be our franchise LT, and play him at RT, the spot few scouts felt he could handle. Go back and read his draft/scouting reports. Well suited to play LT, but lacking the strength to play RT. Now, we take Shaffer, who I believe has always played OT, and we are going to move him inside to OG.

 

On D Manning, we've made too much of how moving him around's hindered his development. For 4 years he's played mostly FS. He sucks at coverage. Period.

 

St. Clair was okay outside, inside. Never great, but solid. I see Shaffer being the same. Guys who can play will get it done regardless.

 

Omiyale was mediocre in. He'll be mediocre out. I do worry about who's calling the shots. It's like someone wants Omiyale to start because we paid him.

 

[bradjock]

Omiyale was mediocre? That may be a bit over stated. I hope he is better outside. In fact, I hope he is good. Look at Williams, who was absolutely awful at RT but solid at LT. Some players (like St. Clair) may be able to be at least decent anywhere, others (if not most others) have a position that fit at and others they do not.

 

Omiyale was flat out bad at the beginning but okay after Williams moved to LT. How much of his being awful had to do with Pace being a damn statue?

 

I'll take that one step further: didn't Pace getting benched make the rest of the line better?

[nfoligno]

Yes, Pace getting benched did make the OL better, as it created a bit of a ripple effect.

 

As bad as Omiyale was, and he was bad, I argued all year how bad Pace and Williams were on the outside. IMHO, their horrid play would have been far more under the spotlight if it were not for Omiyale, who was simply so bad that he over-shadowed all the rest.

 

Once Pace was injured/benched, there was a bit of a ripple effect. Williams was moved to LT. Williams played well, but what killed me was also how we changed our philosophy. While Pace was left on an island, against even Jarred Allen, Williams received a lot of help. The result was solid play from the LT spot. On the other side, Shaffer was in for Williams. While Williams did well enough at LT, he was freaking awful at RT. Shaffer was nothing special, but compared to Williams, he looked very good and again, the result was a big upgrade. Omiyale finished the year with some game where he was between average and even above average, giving some shred of hope for the future. But, Omiyale is now moving again to the outside, and while the hope is he proves that to be a more natural position, there is much to prove.

 

I have said before that I actually have more "hope" for our OL than other units. While I do not expect our OL to be good, much less great, I do hope some of the changes make it at least average, which would be a HUGE upgrade over last year. Further, with the addition of a RB that can pickup blitzes and a TE like Manu, I have greater hope we could actually see holes opened for the RBs and time for Cutler in the pocket.

 

I do have hope for our OL, but still simply would prefer to see Shaffer battle Omiyale outside. If Omiyale proves himself and wins the job, awesome, but I just do not want to hand him the job this year like we did last year.

 

Omiyale was flat out bad at the beginning but okay after Williams moved to LT. How much of his being awful had to do with Pace being a damn statue?

 

I'll take that one step further: didn't Pace getting benched make the rest of the line better?