Tillman switching sides

[Connorbear]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/footb...0,7020096.story

 

Peace

[AZ54]

This is the right call. I've always liked Tillman, especially his toughness, which he isn't often given credit for. He was never the quickest DB and that showed last year. Hopefully he has more of a full offseason of workouts as opposed the limitations he had last and that will help but regardless he won't be nearly as athletic as Bowman.

[bradjock]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/footb...0,7020096.story

 

Peace

 

Why does every damn move the Bears make on defense make us look like we're running in circles?

1. Peanut is our best CB & he plays on the most important side . . . but now we're switching him in favor of Graham?

2. Chris Harris is a SS and DM in theory is a natural FS . . . so we've switched them. DM has looked bad all over the secondary.

3. We trade Chris Harris to make room for Payne. Two years later we trade back for Harris and trade Payne to make room for Harris.

4. Tim Shaw is a natural nickel. So now he's a back-up corner and we're playing Corey Graham at nickel

5. Corey Graham looked good at cb 2 years ago. We moved him to safety, then to cb, then to the bench, now to nickel

6. Idonije beefed up and moved to tackle . . . only to be told to slim down and move back to end.

7. We drafted Gilbert to play DT & moved him to DE. Melton was a DE and we moved him to DT. I have no clue what the hell either one currently is.

8. Mark Anderson is promoted to start over Brown. Anderson sucks and Brown starts. Brown is cut so now Anderson is the starter . . .

9. Lovie fires Chico and replaces him with Bob Babbich, his hand-picked replacement. Babbich sucks, so he's demoted and Lovie is promoted . . . Lovie sucks, and is replaced by a new hand-picked replacement in Marinelli.

 

Seemingly our defense sucks and we keep moving guys around and getting the same results. I can almost hear the damn Looney-Tunes song . . .

[clnr]

1. No, switched for Bowman. Who was the best CB last season IMO.

4. Tim Shaw is a LB. You're thinking about Tim Jennings? Who is competing with the likes of DJ Moore and Joshua Moore for a roster spot. Can't see why this is an issue in mini camp.

5. He can't beat out Bowman at CB, so why shouldn't he be tried at other positions?

8. Anderson, Brown and Izzy had very similar stats last year with a slight edge for Brown. But Brown would cost over $10 millions over the next 2 seasons. So what is your point?

 

[Pixote]

This type of juggling happens all the time with all teams. Even NEP have one of the best run carousels in the NFL.

 

OK, you mention Chris Harris.

 

If you are a Carolina fan you look at it this way:

 

We traded a late draft pick and got an excellent starter in Chris Harris.

 

Then, even though he was a darn good safety for us and a starter during his time in CAR we trade him back for a LB who has yet to prove he can be anything more than a good backup.

[nfoligno]

1. No, switched for Bowman. Who was the best CB last season IMO.

While I agree he was the best CB last season, Tillman was also playing through injury. I am not sure Bowman is our best CB in general. While I do not have a big issue with the move, I also wonder if it isn't a tad premature. Bowman played decent for one season. Maybe we could have allowed him one more solid year before moving him into the #1 CB role.

 

5. He can't beat out Bowman at CB, so why shouldn't he be tried at other positions?

 

One, how can you say he can't beat out Bowman if he isn't given an opportunity. Two, how can he develop at CB (a position we lack depth) when he isn't getting many reps there. Three, Tillman is on the downside, and both Tillman and Bowman have extensive injury histories. Maybe we should be thinking about the future a tad. While I do not have an issue with allowing players an opportunity to broaden their horizon, this feels more like how we have moved DM all over the place w/o ever given him much time to develop at one. I mean, Graham plays decent one year, and the following offseason he is moved to nickel/FS, where he really isn't allowed to even develop at either.

 

8. Anderson, Brown and Izzy had very similar stats last year with a slight edge for Brown. But Brown would cost over $10 millions over the next 2 seasons. So what is your point?

 

How did they have similar stats? Brown had 48 tackles, 6 sacks and 6 TFL. Anderson about half of each. Idonije, who was mostly playing inside, 18 tackles, 2.5 sacks an 1 TFL. While I assume you will say Anderson had fewer snaps, at the same time, I would also point out the last time we 'assumed' more snaps would equal increased production for Anderson, it didn't turn out that way.

[nfoligno]

1. Peanut is our best CB & he plays on the most important side . . . but now we're switching him in favor of Graham?

As said, we are switching for Bowman. I understand the thinking, as Tillman is on the downside and Bowman appears to be a solid potential player, but personally, I think this move is a year too soon. Bowman played decent, not great. If he proves himself for a 2nd year, then we can move him. Not sure I love the prospect of Bowman covering opponents #1 WRs.

 

2. Chris Harris is a SS and DM in theory is a natural FS . . . so we've switched them. DM has looked bad all over the secondary.

 

Agreed 100% on Harris. It was his play at FS which prompted us to trade him. He went to Carolina where he played SS very well, prompting us to bring him back, but then we move him back to FS. Harris is a SS that lacks the downfield coverage skills, so I can not understand why we are looking at him there. Further, I would far more like to get all the reps possible to the rookie who we drafted to play FS. How we have handled our S position has been a joke, and yet, DM is part of that too.

 

For DM, I think the idea of him being a S in general should be abandoned, and just use him where he has proven a solid player, nickel/return.

 

3. We trade Chris Harris to make room for Payne. Two years later we trade back for Harris and trade Payne to make room for Harris.

 

The more shocking part of this is pointed out above. He failed at FS so we move him. He looks solid in Carolina as a SS, and we bring him back, only to again play him where he struggled rather than where he excelled?

 

4. Tim Shaw is a natural nickel. So now he's a back-up corner and we're playing Corey Graham at nickel

 

As pointed out already, I think you mean Jennings. While he is likely a nickel, we lack depth at CB and are essentially forced to give most any potential CB reps there, regardless if that is where they end up.

 

5. Corey Graham looked good at cb 2 years ago. We moved him to safety, then to cb, then to the bench, now to nickel

 

He was moved to nickel last year, but otherwise, I agree. From what I have read, our new DB coach came in last year, felt Graham lacked the speed to play CB, and decided he couldn't handle the position. I disagree, and agree with you. He played decent enough at CB that it doesn't make sense how we are developing him. Seems Graham is the current version of DM who will be moved around and never allowed to develop at any one position.

 

6. Idonije beefed up and moved to tackle . . . only to be told to slim down and move back to end.

 

Yea, it has been a bit of a joke. Credit Idonije for the versatility, but how can we expect much from a player who is moved around each year, and asked to add/lose a significant amount of weight to do so every time. Even more shocking is how much he is part of the plans this year when he has never been (based on our coaches shifting him around) considered good enough to simply be considered a starting DE.

 

7. We drafted Gilbert to play DT & moved him to DE. Melton was a DE and we moved him to DT. I have no clue what the hell either one currently is.

 

I am not sure Gilbert was actually drafted to be a DT. I think he was drafted due to his athleticism, but w/o a real plan/position in mind. I think we looked at him as a replacement for Wale, but then we traded for Adams and moved Gilbert to DT. Adams passed way, and we talked about Gilbert again at DE, only to sign Peppers and move him back inside. This is what happens when you do not have a plan in place for a player to start with.

 

8. Mark Anderson is promoted to start over Brown. Anderson sucks and Brown starts. Brown is cut so now Anderson is the starter . . .

 

Agreed, and I will go one further. While Anderson showed some flashes last year at DE, I would argue he showed less last year than he did his rookie year, and thus I do not understand why we believe he will do different this time as a starter than last.

 

9. Lovie fires Chico and replaces him with Bob Babbich, his hand-picked replacement. Babbich sucks, so he's demoted and Lovie is promoted . . . Lovie sucks, and is replaced by a new hand-picked replacement in Marinelli.

 

And best still, Marinelli has never run a defense. Nice.

 

[nfoligno]

But explain this.

 

Harris didn't get it done as a FS in Chicago, prompting us to trade him. Carolina moves him to SS where he does very well, prompting us to trade for him. Then, rather than play him at the position where he did well, we move him back to the position where he played poorly, prompting us to get rid of him.

 

I had no issue to bringing Harris back, but do have an issue with playing Harris as a FS rather than SS.

 

This type of juggling happens all the time with all teams. Even NEP have one of the best run carousels in the NFL.

 

OK, you mention Chris Harris.

 

If you are a Carolina fan you look at it this way:

 

We traded a late draft pick and got an excellent starter in Chris Harris.

 

Then, even though he was a darn good safety for us and a starter during his time in CAR we trade him back for a LB who has yet to prove he can be anything more than a good backup.

 

[madlithuanian]

Love this tread guys! Kudos!

[clnr]

Anderson, Brown and Izzie had similar stats if you adjust them per play. I think I read it here, but not sure. Brown slightly higher.

Of course it is an assumption, but I will argue that Anderson is a better alround DE today than 2 years ago. He doesn't flat out suck in run support for one thing!

[madlithuanian]

Smith....

 

Stubborn...

 

Must do same thing over and over again...

 

Grrr....

 

Winng BAD!!!! Repeating same mistakes, GOOD!

 

[AZ54]

I don't think Graham did that well as a CB. He was ok but was not much of a pass defender, rather he just seemed to always be shadowing the receiver and made the tackle after the completion. Rather than blame Hoke for his demotion we should keep in mind he had the lead over Bowman in the competition (far more experience too) and it was Bowman who stood out in the minicamps and OTAs last year and he stayed that way throughout training camp thus earning the starting job...as it should be IMO.

[nfoligno]

I am not saying Graham played great when he did get a chance to start at CB, but he play as well or better than anyone else on our team.

 

Where I disagree is when you say Bowman beat Graham in a competition. Sorry, but that competition simply never took place. Graham was never even looked at at CB that following season. I talked about it often. Following the season he started, he was immediately moved to FS in workouts, and then worked at both FS and nickel during camp and into the season.

 

I recall so very well how, even as our secondary was killed by injuries in camp, we worked McBride and other players who didn't make the team over Graham. Hoke came in and Graham was taken out of the CB picture. There was no competition.

 

I don't think Graham did that well as a CB. He was ok but was not much of a pass defender, rather he just seemed to always be shadowing the receiver and made the tackle after the completion. Rather than blame Hoke for his demotion we should keep in mind he had the lead over Bowman in the competition (far more experience too) and it was Bowman who stood out in the minicamps and OTAs last year and he stayed that way throughout training camp thus earning the starting job...as it should be IMO.

 

[Mongo3451]

I am not saying Graham played great when he did get a chance to start at CB, but he play as well or better than anyone else on our team.

 

Where I disagree is when you say Bowman beat Graham in a competition. Sorry, but that competition simply never took place. Graham was never even looked at at CB that following season. I talked about it often. Following the season he started, he was immediately moved to FS in workouts, and then worked at both FS and nickel during camp and into the season.

 

I recall so very well how, even as our secondary was killed by injuries in camp, we worked McBride and other players who didn't make the team over Graham. Hoke came in and Graham was taken out of the CB picture. There was no competition.

That's the way I remember it. I think there was even a joke going around about Graham bangin Lovie's wife.

[madlithuanian]

...or nude pictures. Someone always appears to have something on Smith. Because there is no other logical reason why he does certian things.

 

That's the way I remember it. I think there was even a joke going around about Graham bangin Lovie's wife.

 

[Daventry]

I am not saying Graham played great when he did get a chance to start at CB, but he play as well or better than anyone else on our team.

 

Where I disagree is when you say Bowman beat Graham in a competition. Sorry, but that competition simply never took place. Graham was never even looked at at CB that following season. I talked about it often. Following the season he started, he was immediately moved to FS in workouts, and then worked at both FS and nickel during camp and into the season.

 

I recall so very well how, even as our secondary was killed by injuries in camp, we worked McBride and other players who didn't make the team over Graham. Hoke came in and Graham was taken out of the CB picture. There was no competition.

 

 

That is the way I remember it too, there was lots of good signs of progress from Graham and then he disappeared. It reminded me of McQuarters being summarily dumped by the Bears, later we learned he had a few words with Lovie. I wonder if Graham is not thought of well by coaching, because to me he looks like he could be a good one.

[nfoligno]

I never understood why Graham went from starter to forgotten. I mean, I get that he didn't play well enough to lock down the starting job the following year, but to not even be part of the competition and to be moved to another postion?

 

Then I read Hoke (DB coach) was hired and during his player reviews, didn't believe Graham had the speed to play CB. Thus, Graham was moved.

 

That is the way I remember it too, there was lots of good signs of progress from Graham and then he disappeared. It reminded me of McQuarters being summarily dumped by the Bears, later we learned he had a few words with Lovie. I wonder if Graham is not thought of well by coaching, because to me he looks like he could be a good one.

 

[bradjock]

As said, we are switching for Bowman. I understand the thinking, as Tillman is on the downside and Bowman appears to be a solid potential player, but personally, I think this move is a year too soon. Bowman played decent, not great. If he proves himself for a 2nd year, then we can move him. Not sure I love the prospect of Bowman covering opponents #1 WRs.

 

Agreed. It would help if I trusted the defensive staff. Seemingly every time we move a guy it's the wrong choice.

 

For DM, I think the idea of him being a S in general should be abandoned, and just use him where he has proven a solid player, nickel/return.

 

Nickel's the one spot DM has been successful. Our nickel spot is weak. Agree that we should just make Harris the SS. Declare Steltz as the the starting FS (he's neither good nor bad) and hope Wright can beat him out for the spot.

 

The more shocking part of this is pointed out above. He failed at FS so we move him. He looks solid in Carolina as a SS, and we bring him back, only to again play him where he struggled rather than where he excelled?

 

God I have a headache . . .

 

As pointed out already, I think you mean Jennings. While he is likely a nickel, we lack depth at CB and are essentially forced to give most any potential CB reps there, regardless if that is where they end up.

 

Dan Pompei pointed out today how that Jennings is 5'7" and he'd have to play against huge CB's. I think he could play nickel

 

Yea, it has been a bit of a joke. Credit Idonije for the versatility, but how can we expect much from a player who is moved around each year, and asked to add/lose a significant amount of weight to do so every time. Even more shocking is how much he is part of the plans this year when he has never been (based on our coaches shifting him around) considered good enough to simply be considered a starting DE.

 

IMO, he's only part of the plans because we had to save salary on Brown and couldn't invest more in the position. I think if the kid from Northwestern can do anything, he'll be given the nod over Idonije.

 

I am not sure Gilbert was actually drafted to be a DT. I think he was drafted due to his athleticism, but w/o a real plan/position in mind. I think we looked at him as a replacement for Wale, but then we traded for Adams and moved Gilbert to DT. Adams passed way, and we talked about Gilbert again at DE, only to sign Peppers and move him back inside. This is what happens when you do not have a plan in place for a player to start with.

 

Gilbert played DT in college and I'm pretty sure Gilbert played mostly DT in TC last year. We seemed to realize he wasn't any damn good at DT. Hub Arkush mentioned that Gilbert's been so bad he might not even make the team this year.

 

I still don't get Melton. He's listed at 260 and seems ideal as a speed guy coming off the edge. How can we play him at DT???

 

Agreed, and I will go one further. While Anderson showed some flashes last year at DE, I would argue he showed less last year than he did his rookie year, and thus I do not understand why we believe he will do different this time as a starter than last.

 

To me he looked slower but stronger last year. He seemed able to stuff the run but couldn't get to the QB. While I've never read it, I wonder if we asked him to gain weight in order to become an every down end. While he's far from great, I didn't notice a big difference between him, Wale, and Brown. IMO the worst DE on the roster died. Adams just flailed around and couldn't get past anyone. Either way, Peppers & Anderson is an upgrade over Brown & Wale.

 

 

[nfoligno]

Agreed. It would help if I trusted the defensive staff. Seemingly every time we move a guy it's the wrong choice.

 

Preaching to the choir!

 

Nickel's the one spot DM has been successful. Our nickel spot is weak. Agree that we should just make Harris the SS. Declare Steltz as the the starting FS (he's neither good nor bad) and hope Wright can beat him out for the spot.

 

While I am not sure how good Steltz is, I agree we should just put him out there and let him compete with Wright. Frankly, unless Wright looks flat out bad, I would likely play him. He may be green, but if he is our top legit FS prospect, may as well let him start developing.

 

Dan Pompei pointed out today how that Jennings is 5'7" and he'd have to play against huge CB's. I think he could play nickel

 

I think he can play nickel too, but I would have him compete with DM. This is why I have been screaming out about our CB position.

 

IMO, he's only part of the plans because we had to save salary on Brown and couldn't invest more in the position. I think if the kid from Northwestern can do anything, he'll be given the nod over Idonije.

 

Might be expecting a tad much if we hope the rookie can show much. Agreed he is a major part of the plans due to our having to let Brown go, but at the end of the day, I just dislike how we have to rely on a guy who is a solid depth chart guy, but should not be counted on for much more.

 

Gilbert played DT in college and I'm pretty sure Gilbert played mostly DT in TC last year. We seemed to realize he wasn't any damn good at DT. Hub Arkush mentioned that Gilbert's been so bad he might not even make the team this year.

 

Gilbert is simply a typical Angelo pick. Big time raw talent but low in terms of developed football skills.

 

I still don't get Melton. He's listed at 260 and seems ideal as a speed guy coming off the edge. How can we play him at DT???

 

No argument. I never liked the Melton pick. Another player who was high in raw talent, but VERY raw in terms of football skills. This is a kid who started his college career as a RB. Never understood the idea of him playing DT.

 

To me he looked slower but stronger last year. He seemed able to stuff the run but couldn't get to the QB. While I've never read it, I wonder if we asked him to gain weight in order to become an every down end. While he's far from great, I didn't notice a big difference between him, Wale, and Brown. IMO the worst DE on the roster died. Adams just flailed around and couldn't get past anyone. Either way, Peppers & Anderson is an upgrade over Brown & Wale.

 

Honestly, I don't recall Anderson doing much run stuffing. I thought he played mostly on passing downs. One thing I go back to w/ Anderson is coaching. As a rookie, he was under Don Johnson and Rivera, and looked awesome. Then those two are gone and so is Anderson's production. He played better last year, but as you said, didn't appear to have the explosion he once did. Just wonder how much is coaching and how much is just him.