Recent thoughts and talks about WRs

[nfoligno]

So Cutler is on the radio and asked about the WRs, and who he expects to breakout, and he once again, immediately goes to DA, then mentioning Iglesias.

 

I bring this up because we keep hearing (I think from the staff) that Hester and Knox appear to be the starters. Last year, Cutler seemed to beg for DA to play. This year, Cutler again really seems to be pushing for DA to have a key role. Will he?

 

So, how do you all see the WRs shaking out and/or how (if different) would you like to see it shake out.

 

What I would like.

 

DA and Knox as the starters. Both have speed and DA has size. Great talent duo here. Hester in the slot. I know the staff really wants him to start, but I still think he could be the most dangerous from inside, and in this offense, the slot is dang near a starter. Iglesias seems to be really making a push, and would be my 4th WR ahead of Bennett.

 

What I think will happen.

 

Hester and Knox start, with DA in the slot (though it would not shock me if Bennett or Iglesias get a lot of work inside as well). The staff always seem to most often talk about Knox and Hester, but Cutler seems to most often talk about DA, and now recently, Iglesias.

[Wesson44]

So Cutler is on the radio and asked about the WRs, and who he expects to breakout, and he once again, immediately goes to DA, then mentioning Iglesias.

 

I bring this up because we keep hearing (I think from the staff) that Hester and Knox appear to be the starters. Last year, Cutler seemed to beg for DA to play. This year, Cutler again really seems to be pushing for DA to have a key role. Will he?

 

So, how do you all see the WRs shaking out and/or how (if different) would you like to see it shake out.

 

What I would like.

 

DA and Knox as the starters. Both have speed and DA has size. Great talent duo here. Hester in the slot. I know the staff really wants him to start, but I still think he could be the most dangerous from inside, and in this offense, the slot is dang near a starter. Iglesias seems to be really making a push, and would be my 4th WR ahead of Bennett.

 

What I think will happen.

 

Hester and Knox start, with DA in the slot (though it would not shock me if Bennett or Iglesias get a lot of work inside as well). The staff always seem to most often talk about Knox and Hester, but Cutler seems to most often talk about DA, and now recently, Iglesias.

For me it would be DA and Hester starting with Knox/Iglesias/Bennett in the slot & 4/5 Wr sets. Davis is lost in this due to lack of wiggle, speed and hands. And he's the shortest also. So here is what we have at WR.

 

Hester = Speed & wiggle,

Knox = Speed & wiggle,

DA = Speed, Bigger target,

Iglesias=Wiggle, Hands,medium speed

Bennett =Hands, medium speed

Davis = Medium speed, special teams leader

 

[nfoligno]

The key reason I would rather Knox start over Hester is, I believe Knox is a better outside WR, with better downfield ability. That Hester has speed is w/o question, but I have never felt he excelled downfield. He has the speed to get downfield, but does not track the ball as well, nor does he do as good of a job going after the ball. Remember what Cutler said? W/ Hester, you have to really "hit him" rather than allowing him to adjust and make a play on the ball. So basically, with Hester, Cutler feels he has to make a perfect throw, while many other downfield WRs have the ability to adjust and better make a play on the ball.

 

On the other hand, if you have Hester in the slot, you get the ball in his hands and allow him to use the skills we have seen as a returner picking up YAC.

 

For me it would be DA and Hester starting with Knox/Iglesias/Bennett in the slot & 4/5 Wr sets. Davis is lost in this due to lack of wiggle, speed and hands. And he's the shortest also. So here is what we have at WR.

 

Hester = Speed & wiggle,

Knox = Speed & wiggle,

DA = Speed, Bigger target,

Iglesias=Wiggle, Hands,medium speed

Bennett =Hands, medium speed

Davis = Medium speed, special teams leader

 

[AZ54]

I would like to see DA/Knox outside with Hester in the slot. I think that fits everyone's skill set the best. However, what's really nice is that it appears we are finally getting some real competition among the WRs. Even if it's Hester and Knox outside whoever we have in the 3rd and 4th spot should be capable WRs. There shouldn't be much dropoff from 3 to 5 on our roster. Word is that Davis is performing well but he's always been a better practice player and fades when there is contact in the games. He may end up on the roster but I hope he's not a routine active player for us.

 

 

[adam]

From ESPN Blog:

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicagobears/post/...ed-as-a-starter

 

An encouraging development considering Knox found a way to make an impact in 2009 despite a somewhat limited understanding of the playbook. Martz is known to have a low tolerance level when it comes to players failing to execute their assignments, so while it's likely Knox encountered a few speed bumps during the offseason workouts, he's performed well enough to be firmly entrenched in a starters' role.

 

"It's a big opportunity going with the [first team]," Knox said. "But if I was one, two or three, I'd still be trying to take the same approach whether I was starting or not."

 

So if Knox is firmly entrenched as a starter, and the Bears have eluded to giving Hester some plays off to be more effective in the return game, you would have to think the primary WRs will be DA and Knox. Also, I assume Martz will use a bunch of 3 WR sets as well, making the top 3 basically starters anyway.

[nfoligno]

3rd WR may play a ton, and the term starter may not be as important, but I think also key is where they play. Your two starters are on the outside, with the 3rd in the slot. So even if you have start w/ a 3 WR set, and have 3 starters, it is also an important distiction in where they line up. I personally believe Hester is best inside, while Knox and DA would be best outside.

 

From ESPN Blog:

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicagobears/post/...ed-as-a-starter

 

 

 

So if Knox is firmly entrenched as a starter, and the Bears have eluded to giving Hester some plays off to be more effective in the return game, you would have to think the primary WRs will be DA and Knox. Also, I assume Martz will use a bunch of 3 WR sets as well, making the top 3 basically starters anyway.

 

[bradjock]

 

The key reason I would rather Knox start over Hester is, I believe Knox is a better outside WR, with better downfield ability. That Hester has speed is w/o question, but I have never felt he excelled downfield. He has the speed to get downfield, but does not track the ball as well, nor does he do as good of a job going after the ball. Remember what Cutler said? W/ Hester, you have to really "hit him" rather than allowing him to adjust and make a play on the ball. So basically, with Hester, Cutler feels he has to make a perfect throw, while many other downfield WRs have the ability to adjust and better make a play on the ball.

 

Agreed. Not to mention there were several times last year where the ball went one way and Hester broke another. This could have been Cutler's fault, but somehow I doubt it.

 

On the other hand, if you have Hester in the slot, you get the ball in his hands and allow him to use the skills we have seen as a returner picking up YAC.

 

When has he ever demonstrated skills for yards after catch? When he catches the ball, seemingly one of 3 things happens:

1. The CB is draped all over him and he's dropped immediately. To me this indicates he's not able to get seperation.

2. He catches the ball in space & turns to face the defense. Then he's dropped immediately. I can't remember him making a guy miss after a catch.

3. He beats the defense downfield but typically juggles the ball. I can't remember this happening last year.

 

I'm curious to know if the defense pays special attention to him. As a receiver there doesn't appear to be anything special about him.

[AZ54]

When has he ever demonstrated skills for yards after catch? When he catches the ball, seemingly one of 3 things happens:

1. The CB is draped all over him and he's dropped immediately. To me this indicates he's not able to get seperation.

2. He catches the ball in space & turns to face the defense. Then he's dropped immediately. I can't remember him making a guy miss after a catch.

3. He beats the defense downfield but typically juggles the ball. I can't remember this happening last year.

 

I'm curious to know if the defense pays special attention to him. As a receiver there doesn't appear to be anything special about him.

 

I hope Martz's offense is far less predictable than Turner's because I think that alone was a big part of that problem. Not to mention there were no other WRs who concerned a defense so Hester always had the focus of the D. When you think about it we rarely seemed to catch a defense with a play call they weren't ready for. We've already heard many players state they can run multiple plays from the same formation and the fact they speak up about that indicates it wasn't so much that way last year.

[adam]

3rd WR may play a ton, and the term starter may not be as important, but I think also key is where they play. Your two starters are on the outside, with the 3rd in the slot. So even if you have start w/ a 3 WR set, and have 3 starters, it is also an important distiction in where they line up. I personally believe Hester is best inside, while Knox and DA would be best outside.

 

I agree. Hester should be in the slot, and it will be nice to have at least one of those three getting a nickelback covering them instead of one of the starting corners.

 

[nfoligno]

Brad, I said that we have seen him use skills and attibutues as a return man that often translate to YAC.

 

Usually you see a WR get YAC one of two ways. One, they use pure speed to get downfield, beat everyone, make the catch and take it to the house. The other way is to catch the ball shorter, but to then be elusive and show quickness to add YAC. That is where I believe Hester can excel.

 

Have we seen this from Hester in the past so much? No. But I would also point out that we have seen Hester play outside, and I am talking about him inside. There is a pretty big difference.

 

Hester has been our #1 WR on the outside, and thus matched up against opponents top CBs. Think about that for a moment. Hester was still not developed as a WR, and yet put into a position where he had to face opponents best CB. Further, due to not really having any other weapons to speak of, Opponents often could slide a S over the top. It was that Hester faced double teams all the way downfield, but would have a safety over the top, and thus if he did make the catch downfield, had another man there to make the stop.

 

If we move Hester to the slot, right off the bat you will have him matched against far different coverages. He will likely be facing nickel DBs, and at times even safeties. Far different than facing opponents #1 CB. Further, teams do not often double team an opponents slot WR. In the past, even if Hester did get sep from his CB, he often then had a S to deal w/. Not the case if he is working out of the slot. Finally, I would argue that Hester has improved his route running and overall knowledge as a WR each year. It was only a couple years ago he was a freaking DB himself, and fewer still he was so clueless where to lineup that MM was pushing him around before the snap telling him what to do. He has developed as a WR, and done so in very difficult circumstances.

 

But now I believe we have better WRs fit to play the outside, and feel he could really thrive inside. Frankly, I think Martz see's the same thing. Shortly after Martz was hired, he talked about Hester out of the slot, but very soon after that seemed to alter his comments, which always made me wonder if Lovie or Angelo didn't tell him Hester was a starter and had to be used as such. Thus why, while I think Hester would be best in the slot, I think our staff will more likely line him up outside.

 

When has he ever demonstrated skills for yards after catch? When he catches the ball, seemingly one of 3 things happens:

1. The CB is draped all over him and he's dropped immediately. To me this indicates he's not able to get seperation.

2. He catches the ball in space & turns to face the defense. Then he's dropped immediately. I can't remember him making a guy miss after a catch.

3. He beats the defense downfield but typically juggles the ball. I can't remember this happening last year.

 

I'm curious to know if the defense pays special attention to him. As a receiver there doesn't appear to be anything special about him.

 

 

[bradjock]

The other way is to catch the ball shorter, but to then be elusive and show quickness to add YAC. That is where I believe Hester can excel.

 

Hester's been a full time WR for 3 seasons. I can't think of a single play as a WR where he made a guy miss. You can say this is due to good CB's and double coverage, but shouldn't it have happened once? He no longer makes guys miss on punt returns. He hasn't returned a kick or a punt for a TD in two full seasons. We've heard that teams do a better job of scheming for him. Yet, Knox and D Manning give teams more fits then Hester. Heck, Bennett even ran one back. Like teams weren't doing everything they could to stop him his first 2 years in the league?

 

There was the game in '07 against the Vikings. He caught the punt and the Vikings covered it perfectly. Four players circled him. Somehow he took a step back and went past all of them. Took it the the house. Unbelieveable. No amount of scheming could stop him. That's not true anymore. Now he'd take a step back & fall down.

 

Hester has lost that extra something that made him the most exciting player in the league his first 2 seasons. I'm scared it's gone for good.

 

Have we seen this from Hester in the past so much? No. But I would also point out that we have seen Hester play outside, and I am talking about him inside. There is a pretty big difference.

 

Hester has been our #1 WR on the outside, and thus matched up against opponents top CBs. Think about that for a moment. Hester was still not developed as a WR, and yet put into a position where he had to face opponents best CB. Further, due to not really having any other weapons to speak of, Opponents often could slide a S over the top. It was that Hester faced double teams all the way downfield, but would have a safety over the top, and thus if he did make the catch downfield, had another man there to make the stop.

 

That's a damn good point you make, but at least once, maybe against a bad team or poorly coached team, shouldn't he have been able to overcome that? Where's the Devin Hester WR highlight real? There's not much there.

 

If we move Hester to the slot, right off the bat you will have him matched against far different coverages. He will likely be facing nickel DBs, and at times even safeties. Far different than facing opponents #1 CB. Further, teams do not often double team an opponents slot WR. In the past, even if Hester did get sep from his CB, he often then had a S to deal w/. Not the case if he is working out of the slot. Finally, I would argue that Hester has improved his route running and overall knowledge as a WR each year.

 

That's a damn good point and I hope you're right.

 

It was only a couple years ago he was a freaking DB himself, and fewer still he was so clueless where to lineup that MM was pushing him around before the snap telling him what to do. He has developed as a WR, and done so in very difficult circumstances.

 

How long does this give him an excuse for being mediocre? He's been a WR for 3 full seasons now.

 

But now I believe we have better WRs fit to play the outside, and feel he could really thrive inside. Frankly, I think Martz see's the same thing. Shortly after Martz was hired, he talked about Hester out of the slot, but very soon after that seemed to alter his comments, which always made me wonder if Lovie or Angelo didn't tell him Hester was a starter and had to be used as such. Thus why, while I think Hester would be best in the slot, I think our staff will more likely line him up outside.

 

You mentioned JA telling Martz Hester had to start, and I thought the same thing. Martz back-tracked on his comments since that's what his boss told him to do. Yet, based on Martz's reputation, I hope Martz will do what he thinks is best, not what is politically correct. For instance, last year it would have been a bad PR move to bench Pace. Yet everyone could see he was terrible. Turner waits until week 13 and the season is over to sit him. Thanks Ron.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Hester is listed as the starter, but on the opening snap, you have DA and Knox out there with #23 on the sidelines. It'll be interesting.

 

[nfoligno]

Hester's been a full time WR for 3 seasons.

 

Disagree. He has been a full time WR for only two years. He has been in the league 4 years. Year one, he was a return specialist who got some plays on defense as a DB later in the year. Year two, he was a return specialist and the coaches tried to team have a very limited number of WR plays to get him on the field with the offense. He was more a gimmick player, and played only a little on offense that year.

 

He has been a WR for two seasons. Thats it.

 

I can't think of a single play as a WR where he made a guy miss. You can say this is due to good CB's and double coverage, but shouldn't it have happened once? He no longer makes guys miss on punt returns. He hasn't returned a kick or a punt for a TD in two full seasons. We've heard that teams do a better job of scheming for him. Yet, Knox and D Manning give teams more fits then Hester. Heck, Bennett even ran one back. Like teams weren't doing everything they could to stop him his first 2 years in the league?

 

There was the game in '07 against the Vikings. He caught the punt and the Vikings covered it perfectly. Four players circled him. Somehow he took a step back and went past all of them. Took it the the house. Unbelieveable. No amount of scheming could stop him. That's not true anymore. Now he'd take a step back & fall down.

 

Come on. You don't think he has had a single play of making a guy miss, and then picking up YAC? Can I give you an example? No. But frankly, I can't give many specific examples for any of our players.

 

I would agree he has not shown the elusive ability, either as a WR or returner, for the last two years. But I don't think the ability simply went away. I attribute that more to a mental thing, which can be corrected.

 

Hester has lost that extra something that made him the most exciting player in the league his first 2 seasons. I'm scared it's gone for good.

 

That may be. To me, it seems like after he got his contract, and the increased role as a WR, he became more hesitant as a returner. It was like he was saving himself for his time as a WR. I don't know. Maybe it is just gone. Either way, I think his best role is still in the slot. If that ability is gone, then I really don't want him on the outside.

 

That's a damn good point you make, but at least once, maybe against a bad team or poorly coached team, shouldn't he have been able to overcome that? Where's the Devin Hester WR highlight real? There's not much there.

 

One, you don't think he has had any good plays/games? Before getting hurt, he had a pretty solid string of games last year: 6-83, 8-101, 7-81, 6-94 and 7-48.

 

Two, you also have to consider beyond just him. Consider not just him, or the CB he was lined up against, but the offense, QB and OL. How often has it been talked about how poor our OL was, thus making it difficult to attack downfield. Further, as I have talked about, Hester does not do a good job tracking the ball downfield, yet that is just how we used him.

 

Look, I am not just trying to make excuses for Hester. There was a time I was a huge critic of making him a WR, but I have changed my stance. IMHO, he has done a very credible job developing as a WR (remember, he was a VERY raw WR to start with) and done so under pretty poor conditions. I do not think he can ever become a stud WR, yet at the same time, I think he can be a good WR, and even a dangerous one if better used, which to me, would be a move to the slot.

 

How long does this give him an excuse for being mediocre? He's been a WR for 3 full seasons now.

 

Again, only two seasons, not three. I just think fans have to step back and consider everything. He was not a full time WR in college. Far from it. After drafting him, we spent year one looking at him as a DB, and then year two, only taught him a few plays as a WR. It wasn't until year three we truly tried to develop him as a WR. WR is a position that often takes time to develop, longer if the player comes out of college raw. If we drafted a WR, and he put up stats similar to Hester his first two years, I doubt you would be blasting him as you are with Hester. Hester has developed as a WR, and done so in poor conditions. He is never going to be Steve Smith, as some fans labeled him, but I did like the Az-Hakim comparison Martz made.

 

You mentioned JA telling Martz Hester had to start, and I thought the same thing. Martz back-tracked on his comments since that's what his boss told him to do. Yet, based on Martz's reputation, I hope Martz will do what he thinks is best, not what is politically correct. For instance, last year it would have been a bad PR move to bench Pace. Yet everyone could see he was terrible. Turner waits until week 13 and the season is over to sit him. Thanks Ron.

 

Agreed. My hope is that, if other WRs step up enough, the pressure to keep Hester as a starter will be less.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Hester is listed as the starter, but on the opening snap, you have DA and Knox out there with #23 on the sidelines. It'll be interesting.

 

Honestly, I am excited this year to see the development of our WRs. I love the youth/talent combo I see on our team. I love the size/speed combo DA brings to the table, and love also how much Cutler likes him. I love the way Knox his the scene. I said when we drafted Knox he could be damn good, but felt it would take him more time to develop. Showing as much as he did as early as he did gives him hope to a very good career. I still think Hester can be a dangerous weapon, if used better. And I also still think Iglesias could be a real player when all is said and done. In fact, I believe Iglesias pushes Bennett back on the depth chart, and Bennett played well. That we actually have a QB to work with the WRs, and an OC who can use WR, combined with the talent I think we have at the position, it is pretty exciting. Still comes back to the OL, as they have to sustain blocks to make it all work, but even there, I have a bit more hope than in the past.

[DABEARSDABOMB]

I'm not all that concerned. Our top 4 WR's are all going to see significant action and we pretty much will have 3 starters the majority of the time since we'll run a lot of 3 WR sets, imo.

[nfoligno]

Sorry, but I think it matters a lot.

 

Sure, I get it. Martz will likely use a 4th WR more often than Turner did a 3rd. I don't want to get too bogged down with the "starter" label, but how we sort out our WRs does make a pretty big difference.

 

If Hester starts, he is playing an outside WR position, rather than from the slot. Further, if you are on the outside, you are facing starter quality CBs, where as the slot guy faces nickel DBs, and few nickel DBs are as good as the starters.

 

It isn't just about how gets to be called a "starter," nor is it just about who plays slightly more snaps.

 

Its about placing these players where they are best suited, something our staff has not always done so well.

 

I'm not all that concerned. Our top 4 WR's are all going to see significant action and we pretty much will have 3 starters the majority of the time since we'll run a lot of 3 WR sets, imo.

 

[madlithuanian]

BINGO!

 

Its about placing these players where they are best suited, something our staff has not always done so well.

 

[NAMEDSONPAYTON2]

The key reason I would rather Knox start over Hester is, I believe Knox is a better outside WR, with better downfield ability. That Hester has speed is w/o question, but I have never felt he excelled downfield. He has the speed to get downfield, but does not track the ball as well, nor does he do as good of a job going after the ball. Remember what Cutler said? W/ Hester, you have to really "hit him" rather than allowing him to adjust and make a play on the ball. So basically, with Hester, Cutler feels he has to make a perfect throw, while many other downfield WRs have the ability to adjust and better make a play on the ball.

 

Agreed. Not to mention there were several times last year where the ball went one way and Hester broke another. This could have been Cutler's fault, but somehow I doubt it.

 

On the other hand, if you have Hester in the slot, you get the ball in his hands and allow him to use the skills we have seen as a returner picking up YAC.

 

When has he ever demonstrated skills for yards after catch? When he catches the ball, seemingly one of 3 things happens:

1. The CB is draped all over him and he's dropped immediately. To me this indicates he's not able to get seperation.

2. He catches the ball in space & turns to face the defense. Then he's dropped immediately. I can't remember him making a guy miss after a catch.

3. He beats the defense downfield but typically juggles the ball. I can't remember this happening last year.

 

I'm curious to know if the defense pays special attention to him. As a receiver there doesn't appear to be anything special about him.

Agree,especially the part of " As a reciever there dosen't appear to beanything special about him"

[defiantgiant]

Its about placing these players where they are best suited, something our staff has not always done so well.

True, but hasn't Martz specifically said that he's planning to move Hester all over? With his love of shifts, motion, and multiple formations, I'd expect to see Hester line up all over the place, wherever Martz thinks he can get the best matchup on that particular play.

 

Also, what's with all this talk about Hester not making guys miss after the catch? I think somebody was asking for a specific example? Here you go:

2009:

Week 8 against the Browns

Week 6 against the Falcons

Week 3 against the Seahawks

 

2008:

Week 13 against the Vikings

Week 5 against the Lions

 

Separate from his YAC, I think something that's been overlooked (and something that serves him very well as a perimeter receiver, rather than in the slot) is his ability to make DBs hesitate before the catch. Watch this highlight against the Rams. Hester breaks out that stop-and-go move about three times during his route, without ever losing speed. He gets Ron Bartell (St. Louis' #1 corner, and a pretty underrated cover guy) to bite on the stop-and-go, putting Bartell like three steps behind him and out of position to break up the pass, leaving Hester one-on-one with the safety Butler, who's not up to covering him. I can't find the highlight right now, but I remember seeing Hester put a fake on Asante Samuel mid-route that made Samuel spin around 360 degrees.

 

Also, nfo, why do you think Hester can't track or adjust to the ball? He flashed the ability to track the ball as early as the end of 2007, and he's started doing it consistently since then, especially last season. In 2008, he did it against the Texans and Jags, adjusting nicely on some really underthrown passes from Orton. Last season, he did it in Week 1 against the Packers, and again against the Cards. On that last one, he tracked a deep ball down the sideline beautifully and hauled it in, despite having Dominique Rogers-Cromartie (who's one of the few guys in the NFL significantly faster than Hester) in his face the whole time.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Hester's still got some areas to improve, but making guys miss and tracking the ball aren't among them.

[jason]

True, but hasn't Martz specifically said that he's planning to move Hester all over? With his love of shifts, motion, and multiple formations, I'd expect to see Hester line up all over the place, wherever Martz thinks he can get the best matchup on that particular play.

 

Also, what's with all this talk about Hester not making guys miss after the catch? I think somebody was asking for a specific example? Here you go:

2009:

Week 8 against the Browns

Week 6 against the Falcons

Week 3 against the Seahawks

 

2008:

Week 13 against the Vikings

Week 5 against the Lions

 

Separate from his YAC, I think something that's been overlooked (and something that serves him very well as a perimeter receiver, rather than in the slot) is his ability to make DBs hesitate before the catch. Watch this highlight against the Rams. Hester breaks out that stop-and-go move about three times during his route, without ever losing speed. He gets Ron Bartell (St. Louis' #1 corner, and a pretty underrated cover guy) to bite on the stop-and-go, putting Bartell like three steps behind him and out of position to break up the pass, leaving Hester one-on-one with the safety Butler, who's not up to covering him. I can't find the highlight right now, but I remember seeing Hester put a fake on Asante Samuel mid-route that made Samuel spin around 360 degrees.

 

Also, nfo, why do you think Hester can't track or adjust to the ball? He flashed the ability to track the ball as early as the end of 2007, and he's started doing it consistently since then, especially last season. In 2008, he did it against the Texans and Jags, adjusting nicely on some really underthrown passes from Orton. Last season, he did it in Week 1 against the Packers, and again against the Cards. On that last one, he tracked a deep ball down the sideline beautifully and hauled it in, despite having Dominique Rogers-Cromartie (who's one of the few guys in the NFL significantly faster than Hester) in his face the whole time.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Hester's still got some areas to improve, but making guys miss and tracking the ball aren't among them.

 

Game. Set. Match.

Thanks for all the highlights. I'm getting hyped for the season already. The thought of a Jay Cutler throwing to Knox, Hester, Aromashodu, Iglesias, Bennett, Olsen, Forte, and Taylor...IN A MARTZ OFFENSE...has me absolutely salivating.

[BigDaddy]

Brad, I said that we have seen him use skills and attibutues as a return man that often translate to YAC.

 

Usually you see a WR get YAC one of two ways. One, they use pure speed to get downfield, beat everyone, make the catch and take it to the house. The other way is to catch the ball shorter, but to then be elusive and show quickness to add YAC. That is where I believe Hester can excel.

 

Have we seen this from Hester in the past so much? No. But I would also point out that we have seen Hester play outside, and I am talking about him inside. There is a pretty big difference.

 

Hester has been our #1 WR on the outside, and thus matched up against opponents top CBs. Think about that for a moment. Hester was still not developed as a WR, and yet put into a position where he had to face opponents best CB. Further, due to not really having any other weapons to speak of, Opponents often could slide a S over the top. It was that Hester faced double teams all the way downfield, but would have a safety over the top, and thus if he did make the catch downfield, had another man there to make the stop.

 

If we move Hester to the slot, right off the bat you will have him matched against far different coverages. He will likely be facing nickel DBs, and at times even safeties. Far different than facing opponents #1 CB. Further, teams do not often double team an opponents slot WR. In the past, even if Hester did get sep from his CB, he often then had a S to deal w/. Not the case if he is working out of the slot. Finally, I would argue that Hester has improved his route running and overall knowledge as a WR each year. It was only a couple years ago he was a freaking DB himself, and fewer still he was so clueless where to lineup that MM was pushing him around before the snap telling him what to do. He has developed as a WR, and done so in very difficult circumstances.

 

But now I believe we have better WRs fit to play the outside, and feel he could really thrive inside. Frankly, I think Martz see's the same thing. Shortly after Martz was hired, he talked about Hester out of the slot, but very soon after that seemed to alter his comments, which always made me wonder if Lovie or Angelo didn't tell him Hester was a starter and had to be used as such. Thus why, while I think Hester would be best in the slot, I think our staff will more likely line him up outside.

 

When has he ever demonstrated skills for yards after catch? When he catches the ball, seemingly one of 3 things happens:

1. The CB is draped all over him and he's dropped immediately. To me this indicates he's not able to get seperation.

2. He catches the ball in space & turns to face the defense. Then he's dropped immediately. I can't remember him making a guy miss after a catch.

3. He beats the defense downfield but typically juggles the ball. I can't remember this happening last year.

 

I'm curious to know if the defense pays special attention to him. As a receiver there doesn't appear to be anything special about him.

 

 

I am concerned about Mike Martz with regards to his instincts about Hester and his subsequent acquiesence (?sp) to Lovie Smith. A kinder, softer Martz is not needed here. This asswipe we have for a Head Coach doesn't know enough about offense to be telling Martz where Hester is playing. Jerry Angelo knows less than Smith about offense. Guys, if these two have neutered Martz already, get ready for another more unfulfilled expectations.

 

Martz should be playing who he wants, where he believes they are strongest. The Martz we NEED, is the guy who will tell Lovie to back the hell off and let him coach. Furthermore, we went through this shit last year with Cutler screaming for DA and now I fear it is happening again. I Have nothing against Hester and Knox but if I had to pick starters right now, Know and DA would be split and we would use Hester in the slot. That seems to be the consensus everywhere else as well so if we find Hester and Knox starting, I think the Mike Martz we all heard about has gone away and been replaced by a guy with no balls.

 

[nfoligno]

Giant,

 

One. You mention first about Hester's ability to make people miss. While I agree with you, I also understand Bradjock's perception. Since Hester signed his new contract, he has (IMHO) played more hesitant with the ball, both on special teams and as a WR. Early on, Hester was full steam ahead. More lately, he just didn't appear to have the same mentality, often stepping out of bounds rather than try and make a move or break a tackle for extra yards. I know you provide examples, and I agree he has that ability. For me, it is a state of mind thing. Hester has the ability to make people miss, but of late, seems to too often out-think himself, trying to make so many juke moves the defender simply goes straight in for the tackle.

 

Two. I am not saying Hester CAN"T track the ball downfield, but I do not believe that is a strength, and yes, would call it a weakness. Sure, there are examples of when he tracked the ball downfield well, but plenty when he didn't. I remember Dez White making some great catches, but that doesn't mean he had great hands. Even Cutler seems to question Hester's abiliity to track the ball last year, or at least adjust to it on the fly.

 

Does this mean Hester can't track the ball downfield? No. Does it mean he can't improve? No. But I just don't see it as a strength.

 

Look, I know how you feel about Hester. While I do believe Hester has value as a WR, and further feel he has developed as a WR far more than most give him credit, at the same time, there are aspects of his game I would still call a weakness. Areas I think Hester has really improved: (a) knowledge. Many find it hard to forget those first year or two where Hester didn't have a clue where to line up, and even after that, it appear he was often "thinking" rather than just playing. I think he has hit a point where he understands better the routes, and could play more on instinct. Of course, he now has to learn a new system, but at least he know has a better base of understanding to work from. ( Route running. Early on, his timing, breaks, pretty much everything were sloppy. He wasn't a full time WR in college, and didn't start as one for us, and his development was very much lacking, but over the last two years, I have seen tremendous improvement in route running. © Hands. I think this goes back to the first point. When you can just play and not have to think about the play constantly, you can better focus on the ball. Tracking the ball downfield, positioning against the defender (shielding), is still an area I think he has a lot of room to improve.

 

I like the idea of moving him around, but at the same time, I do feel we may have better options on the outside for go routes. Knox and DA has very good ability downfield. Hester does too, but I think Hester's quickness is a greater attribute than pure speed, and I think he has quickness far more than DA and Knox.

 

True, but hasn't Martz specifically said that he's planning to move Hester all over? With his love of shifts, motion, and multiple formations, I'd expect to see Hester line up all over the place, wherever Martz thinks he can get the best matchup on that particular play.

 

Also, what's with all this talk about Hester not making guys miss after the catch? I think somebody was asking for a specific example? Here you go:

2009:

Week 8 against the Browns

Week 6 against the Falcons

Week 3 against the Seahawks

 

2008:

Week 13 against the Vikings

Week 5 against the Lions

 

Separate from his YAC, I think something that's been overlooked (and something that serves him very well as a perimeter receiver, rather than in the slot) is his ability to make DBs hesitate before the catch. Watch this highlight against the Rams. Hester breaks out that stop-and-go move about three times during his route, without ever losing speed. He gets Ron Bartell (St. Louis' #1 corner, and a pretty underrated cover guy) to bite on the stop-and-go, putting Bartell like three steps behind him and out of position to break up the pass, leaving Hester one-on-one with the safety Butler, who's not up to covering him. I can't find the highlight right now, but I remember seeing Hester put a fake on Asante Samuel mid-route that made Samuel spin around 360 degrees.

 

Also, nfo, why do you think Hester can't track or adjust to the ball? He flashed the ability to track the ball as early as the end of 2007, and he's started doing it consistently since then, especially last season. In 2008, he did it against the Texans and Jags, adjusting nicely on some really underthrown passes from Orton. Last season, he did it in Week 1 against the Packers, and again against the Cards. On that last one, he tracked a deep ball down the sideline beautifully and hauled it in, despite having Dominique Rogers-Cromartie (who's one of the few guys in the NFL significantly faster than Hester) in his face the whole time.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Hester's still got some areas to improve, but making guys miss and tracking the ball aren't among them.

 

[nfoligno]

One. With regard to DA, I think it worth pointing out he was set to be a starter until he went down with injury at the end of camp, allowing Knox an opportunity, and Knox took advantage. The problem was, in Turner's offense, few WRs other than the starters really got much of a look once the season began. That will be very different this year.

 

Two. I agree about martz, but wonder if we won't see the Martz you talk about regardless what we have heard thus far. Hester is our most proven WR at this point. We talk about Knox, but while he had a pretty good rookie year, he needs to take another step to be a legit starter. DA looked great, but only in a small window of games. If both of these players "show up" at camp, I think we may in fact see Hester play more from the slot, but the key is those two WRs. Knox especially, IMHO. He came from a small school, and while he looked good last year, it was in a fairly limited role. Can't he handle an expanded role?

 

Its one thing to talk about Hester being a starter before camp when the others have yet to prove themselves. What will be interesting is what happens if DA and Knox prove themselves ready in camp. If Hester still starts, I think it points to Martz giving in to Lovie and Angelo. If Hester moves to the slot in that situation, I think it shows we may well have the OC who does what he feels best, rather than listen to Angelo/Lovie and how they want him to use players.

 

I am concerned about Mike Martz with regards to his instincts about Hester and his subsequent acquiesence (?sp) to Lovie Smith. A kinder, softer Martz is not needed here. This asswipe we have for a Head Coach doesn't know enough about offense to be telling Martz where Hester is playing. Jerry Angelo knows less than Smith about offense. Guys, if these two have neutered Martz already, get ready for another more unfulfilled expectations.

 

Martz should be playing who he wants, where he believes they are strongest. The Martz we NEED, is the guy who will tell Lovie to back the hell off and let him coach. Furthermore, we went through this shit last year with Cutler screaming for DA and now I fear it is happening again. I Have nothing against Hester and Knox but if I had to pick starters right now, Know and DA would be split and we would use Hester in the slot. That seems to be the consensus everywhere else as well so if we find Hester and Knox starting, I think the Mike Martz we all heard about has gone away and been replaced by a guy with no balls.

 

[AZ54]

I like Knox and feel he's a big component of our WR corps for the future he does have a few things to work on. Most notably IMO is getting off the line against press coverage and into the assigned route. I don't think we'll even know if he's learned that this offseason until the real games begin. We don't practice a lot of press coverage and even if we do it's not our forte. We'll see some press coverage in preseason games but again just how intense will it be?

[nfoligno]

This is an area all our WRs could use some work, and has been an issue on our team IMHO for years. While Drake is still our WR coach, my hope is that Martz brings something to the table in this regard.

 

I remember in Stl one of the key ways to stop their passing game was to press the WRs at the LOS. It was a risky thing to press their WRs, but at the same time, they were nearly unstoppable if you gave them room to work with at the LOS. The few teams I remember having success against them were those who would press at the LOS which would (a) breakup the timing of their routes and ( make Warner hold the ball longer. But I also remember Martz doing a lot of things to try and counter the press, whether it meant moving WRs around and employing shifts, or simply improving WRs use of hands and beating the press.

 

Knox has a lot to learn frankly. As well as he did, in many ways, he was a one trick pony finding success based on pure speed downfield. He has a long way to go in terms of development, and I agree how he develops is key to our success.

 

I like Knox and feel he's a big component of our WR corps for the future he does have a few things to work on. Most notably IMO is getting off the line against press coverage and into the assigned route. I don't think we'll even know if he's learned that this offseason until the real games begin. We don't practice a lot of press coverage and even if we do it's not our forte. We'll see some press coverage in preseason games but again just how intense will it be?

 

[nfoligno]

Jason,

 

I think most would agree we have a legit OC, legit QB and potential/talent (albeit unproven) WRs, solid RBs and even solid TEs. The question, as it has been forever, is the OL.

 

Just curious, as I know how you feel about OL in general, but what are your thoughts on the OL. For me, while I am FAR from happy, at the same time, I do have a greater level of hope this year than in recent memory. That hope may be based on faith, I don't know, but I just have more hope than usual.

 

LT - Even when Tait was more in him prime, he was never a legit LT IMHO. He was a RT who could be decent at LT, but we have not had a legit LT since Brockemeyer, and that was a long time ago. In Williams though, I think we have a legit LT. Does he have to prove himself. Obviously, but based on the small amount we saw him at the end of the year, I have pretty high hopes there.

 

RT - Few would say they are excited about Omiyale after what we saw last year, BUT (a) he was out of position at OG, which most fans knew back in camp, but it took all year for the staff to figure out. It was his play at OT that prompted us to sign him, and that is where we now will see him again. Also, ( as bad as he played at OG, he showed a pretty high level of improvement later in the year, which only furthers the belief that much of his awful play was due to being out of position and having to learn a new position. Further, even if he doesn't step up as hoped, we have a pretty good veteran (Schaffer) waiting in the wings to step in.

 

Center - Kreutz has not played well of late, but has also played through injury. I do not think we will ever see the pro bowl caliber player again, but we could see an improved Kreutz, which would be a significant upgrade from what we have gotten. Further, we have depth here too as Beekman should be capable of stepping in.

 

LG - I believe even you have agreed that while Garza is far from a favorite player, at the same time, he has not been the worst either. I have little expectation of him really improving, but if he is our weakest link, I do not think that is horrible. I also like that we are going to make him earn his spot, as I have not liked the lack of competition.

 

RG - This is the big question mark. Camp reports give a lot of promise to a couple young OL battling for the spot. In the past, I would hold little hope for these late rounders, but now that we have a legit OL coach, maybe there is hope we see a greater level of development from later round picks, which is not unusual for most teams.

 

Finally, I think Tice adds a high level of hope too. I LOVE that we plan to alter our blocking philosophy from a drop step to a more power block, allowing OL to attack the DL rather than sit back and wait. I have felt we lacked a legit OL coach for years, and finally adding one could have a series impact on the unit as a whole.

 

There is no question we have big concerns along the OL. At the same time, I simply have greater hope than in the past that we will be able to provide reasonably positive answers to those questions. Further, with a more aggressive scheme in general, it will be harder for defenses to predict our plays and pin their ears back attacking Cutler.

 

Game. Set. Match.

Thanks for all the highlights. I'm getting hyped for the season already. The thought of a Jay Cutler throwing to Knox, Hester, Aromashodu, Iglesias, Bennett, Olsen, Forte, and Taylor...IN A MARTZ OFFENSE...has me absolutely salivating.

 

[AZ54]

Switch LG and RG analysis...

 

Remember RG stands for Roberto Garza.